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Squeejee
2010-04-12, 01:43 AM
Preface

Well, I've said it once and I'll say it again: D20 is not grapple-friendly. It's difficult to pull off, not very useful once you DO pull it off, and generally slows down combat (which is already painfully slow for some) significantly and is just a general downer.

My goals with this system? Make grappling worthwhile and intense. Here, I'd like to think of grappling as a viable combat option for anyone with the BAB to back it up. There's strategy involved in making it work, and even grappling someone for the space of only one or two rounds can open up interesting combat options for a warrior - such as getting close to disarm or trip your opponent, even if you don't have improved trip or disarm.

I also tried to make the system notably more deadly - especially for low-level characters. There's advantages to be take, holds to be reversed, and fingers that need to be broken if you want to achieve mastery of this system - and that's where the strategy element comes into play.

Naturally, I understand that this isn't the change a lot of people want to see with the D20 combat system - and I understand that. Nearly everything in D20 is taken to a certain level of abstraction, and this system is somewhat gritty and detailed. That's why I created the Unbelievably Simple Grapple Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8304926#post8304926) as a sister ruleset to this one - think of them as Squeejee's Better Grapple Rules Lite.

And now, on to the system.

Step 1: Initiating the Grapple

Fighter A wants to grapple Fighter B, so A declares his intention. A makes an unarmed melee touch attach versus B. If he hits, the two roll a contest of their respective grapple modifiers.

If A succeeds on his unarmed melee touch attack, and wins the opposed grapple check, the grapple begins - continue to step two.

If A fails his unarmed melee touch attack, it is resolved as a missed attack.

If A succeeds on his touch attack, but fails his opposed grapple roll, the grapple is ended, and B is awarded an attack of opportunity.



Regdar and Tordek have come to blows, but unlike his dwarf opponent Regdar doesn't have his sword handy. To even the odds, he turns the brawl into a contest of pure strength.

Regdar makes a melee touch attack against Tordek's touch AC of 10, and, obviously, succeeds. Now he has to win a grapple check.

Regdar rolls better than his opponent, and the grapple begins. The two are now subject to the consequences of grappling, below.


Step 2: Consequences of Grappling

While grappling, your attention is completely focused on your opponent. You do not threaten any squares, and are considered flat-footed against non-grappling opponents.

Characters attempting to attack an enemy engaged in a grapple can do so, however the target they chose is considered to have 50% cover from the other grappler. A "successful" attack against a character engaged in a grapple, therefore, has a 50% chance of hitting the other character in it.

Every turn two characters spend in a grapple, they provoke exactly one attack of opportunity, each. That means that, even if you're winning against your immediate opponent, another enemy can walk up and start wailing on you (with mixed results, as described above).

Once a grapple starts, both grapplers are considered to occupy the same space - after initiating the grapple, Fighter A moves into Fighter B's square, or vice-versa, at the initiator's discretion (you can either go to your opponent or pull them in close).



Continuing from above, Regdar now has Tordek trapped in a grapple - rendering his former ally's axe worthless.

Before finishing his action, Regdar has a decision to make. He decides that he'll pull Tordek into his own square, and the two now occupy the same square.

As the fight continues, Lidda decides to break it up, one way or another. She moves adjacent to Regdek's square, and tries to nail Regdar with her sap. She swings for his flat-footed AC, hits, and rolls her 50% miss chance. This time, she rolls under 50% - Regdar takes the hit, but isn't slowing down.

On his next turn, Regdar decides to continue the grapple. At the end of his turn, as he spent the entire turn locked in a grapple, he provokes an attack of opportunity. Lidda takes it, adding her sneak attack damage to the attack once again. She swings, and hits.

This time, however, she rolls over 50%, nailing Tordek square in the back of the head for a lot of nonlethal damage. That will require an explanation, for sure!


Step 3: The Grapple

Every action described below is a move action that can only be performed while grappling. That means that if fighter A has not used his move action yet on the turn he initiates a grapple, he can perform any one action before his turn ends. On most turns, however, both grapplers will have 2 actions to perform - unless they are somehow granted an additional move action.

In all action descriptions, "Fighter A" refers to the grappler whose turn it is, and who is performing the action, while "Fighter B" refers to the defender, the other character in the grapple. The character who started the grapple to begin with has no relevance once the action gets under way.

Gain advantage: When a grapple is first initiated, both contestants are considered to be on equal footing, but this action changes that. This action forces an immediate opposed grapple check between the initiator and the defender, and the winner gains an advantage in the grapple over the other.

When a fighter has gained an advantage over the other, he gains a +2 bonus on all of his grapple checks, attack rolls, and his armor class versus the fighter he is pinning until the other can retake it, or the grapple ends. A fighter with advantage over the other can choose to cover the other's mouth, so as to remain discrete.



An assassin seeks to eliminate the fighter Mercutio, and catches him by surprise in the crowd during a Masquerade. During the surprise round, he 5-foot steps adjacent to him and, not wanting him to shout, catches him in a grapple.

The assassin moves to take the advantage, rolling a straight grapple check versus the surprised Mercutio. The assassin's roll beats Mercrutio's, and so until he loses the advantage the assassin will have a +2 to all of his grapple checks and attack rolls for the remainder of the grapple, or until he loses the advantage. He also opts to cover Mercrutio's mouth.


Reverse hold: If fighter B has an advantage, fighter A can attempt to take it. Both fighters roll opposed grapple checks, and if A wins, he gains the advantage, as described above. Fighter B then loses the advantage.

It is important to note that reversing a hold does not return the fighters to being even, as they are at the start of a combat, but transfers the advantage to the reversing fighter.



Now Mercutio is at a disadvantage - presumably. The assassin hasn't factored in his full BAB and high strength, so this time reversing the hold will be easy...

Mercutio rolls an opposed grapple against the assassin, who has a +2 bonus from the last round. Despite that, the fighter wins - and the assassin loses his bonus. Now, Mercutio will have the +2 bonus. Suspecting the assassin may signal allies, Mercutio opts to cover his opponent's mouth.


Pin: Like taking a second advantage, pinning your opponent is resolved much the same. Fighter A rolls an opposed grapple with Fighter B, and if he is successful he is considered to have Fighter B pinned, gaining an additional +2 to all grapple checks, attack rolls, and his armor class versus the fighter he is pinning until the other can break free, or the grapple ends.

Note that a pin isn't necessarily holding your opponent against another object, but may represent merely a more restrictive hold - like moving from a half to a full nelson.



Now with an advantage, Mercutio wants to set up the assassin to be knocked out for questioning. After reversing the hold as his last action, he has another move action remaining, and opts to pin the would-be killer.

The two roll their grapple checks, with Mercutio taking his additional +2 bonus for reversing the hold. With ease, Mercutio puts his assassin into a pin - gaining an additional +2 to his grapple modifier.


Break Pin: Like reversing a hold, breaking free of a pin is hard work - only now, your opponent has +4 against you instead of +2! Fighter A rolls an opposed grapple and, if successful, Fighter B no longer has him pinned.

If Fighter A breaks the pin, he and Fighter B are considered to be even again - neither has the advantage over the other, and so neither has any more bonuses.



The assassin grows desperate - his entire plan, foiled in but a few moments. He puts his hopes in a break pin maneuver, or it's all over next turn. He rolls an opposed grapple check with Mercutio, but because of his disadvantage, fails.

However, he has other tricks up his sleeve.


Strike: A strike is an attempt to stun your opponent with brief but intense pain, such as by breaking a finger or jabbing their eyes. Fighter A makes a melee attack roll, either unarmed or with a light weapon and taking a -4 penalty to the attack, against Fighter B's flat footed AC (being held in place makes it difficult for fast opponents to dodge). Fighter A rolls damage for the attack, however Fighter B only loses 1 HP from a successful strike.

If the attack is successful, Fighter B makes a will save DC 10 + the damage rolled (not the 1 hp dealt). If Fighter B fails this save, he suffers a -4 penalty to grapple checks and attack rolls until the end of his next turn.



The assassin, seeking to nullify Mercutio's BAB advantage, makes a strike attack - but pulls a fast one by quick-drawing his backup dagger as a free action. As described below, the assassin has to roll a sleight of hand check contested by a grapple check given by Mercutio, and succeeds.

The assassin then uses the dagger to strike Mercutio's hand, taking a -4 penalty to the attack. The attack is somewhat of a hard sell, thanks to Mercutio's handy chain undershirt, but the assassin's skill pulls through and Mercutio takes the hit. The assassin rolls a total of 4 damage on the attack, but only deals 1 of it to his target.

Mercutio rolls a will save DC 14, and because of his low wisdom fails and takes a -4 to all of his grapple-related rolls until the end of his next turn.

Then he rolls fort versus the potent STR damage poison coated on the assassin's dagger, and fails.


Draw a light weapon: As a move action, Fighter A can draw any readily-available light weapon during the grapple. If he has the quick draw feat, he may do this as a free action.

If the Fighter A is pinned by an opponent, he must succeed on a sleight of hand check to draw a weapon. The DC is determined by a grapple check by Fighter B, as he tries to stop Fighter A's weapon draw.



Bleeding from his hand now, Mercutio decides that this is getting dangerous. As a move action, he draws his own dagger, which was hidden (but readily available, as he took a penalty on his disguise check to hide it) in his sleeve.


Smash: The easiest way to subdue a grappled opponent, a smash is, quite simply, attempting to hurt your opponent. Fighter A makes a single attack roll against Fighter B's flat footed AC, causing damage as normal for his unarmed attack or light weapon of choice.



Now with his sidearm equipped, Mercutio goes to stab his assassin. As Mercutio is already taking a -4 to his attack roll, he opts not to make a strike and instead just smash his opponent for as much damage as possible.

He makes his attack roll and, thanks to his BAB, hits. Because of a reduced strength, Mercutio only deals 3 damage to his attacker.


Throw: Fighter A wants to toss Fighter B to the ground, so he declares a throw. Fighter A rolls an attack roll using the rules for making a trip attack, however Fighter A can only use an unarmed strike or a light weapon to make the attack - all relevant modifiers, such as the Improved Trip feat, apply to this roll.

Unlike a normal trip, however, grappling characters are already in contact - therefore, a character attempting a throw is automatically considered successful at the required melee touch attack to initiate a trip.

Because grappling characters do not threaten squares, making this trip attack does not provoke an attack of opportunity. They still provoke their normal one attack per round just for the act of being involved in a grapple.

If successful, Fighter A can choose to either let Fighter B fall prone at his feet, ending the grapple, or he can follow Fighter B down, continuing the grapple. If Fighter A follows Fighter B down, Fighter A is not considered prone as well.

A prone character suffers a -4 to all of his grapple checks, attack rolls, and his armor class versus the character he is grappled with.

A prone character automatically loses any advantage or pin he may have had over his opponent, and the two are considered as being on even footing again.



The assassin decides that it's time to stop screwing around and step up his game. Luck won't hold forever, and he needs to represent or the other assassins will point and laugh at him forever!

The assassin declares a throw, and rolls his trip attack. The assassin doesn't need to hit Mercrutio's touch AC, and simply moves to a contest of STR - He has the improved trip feat, which will be essential for overcoming Mercutio's bonus to the contest thanks to having pinning. The assassin wins, by virtue of a poisoned blade.

The assassin dashes his target to the ground, and decides to follow him down, continuing the grapple. Now that he's prone, Mercutio loses his advantage for having pinned the assassin, and he will suffer a -4 to all of his grapple-related actions for being prone.


Disarm: Weapons are dangerous, and so naturally warriors must give some thought to the act of depriving an opponent of theirs. Fighter A makes a disarm attack, using the same rules for disarming outside of a grapple.

Just as with throw, characters without improved disarm do not provoke while disarming a grappled opponent, save the one per round all grapplers suffer.

If successful, Fighter A can chose to either let the weapon fall to the ground, or throw it up to double their reach away (so a 5-foot reach human can throw a disarmed object 10 feet away) or take it for himself, but only if he has a free hand to hold the weapon in. In this way, weapons can be wrestled from their owner.

As with normal disarm attacks, a disarming fighter can target non-weapons, such as the epic Lich's phylactery hanging precariously around your neck or the pouch you tried to steal from me that has all of my gold inside it.



Having thrown his opponent to the ground, the assassin decides to strip him of his blade. The assassin and Mercutio roll opposed attack rolls and, thanks to Mercutio's poison, the assassin wins the contest, throwing Mercutio's dagger 10 feet away.


Escape: The most useful option for nimble characters without much strength, an escaping character either rolls a grapple check to break free or an escape artist check to wriggle free. In either case, this check is opposed by your opponent's grapple check to hold you in.

If Fighter A successfully escapes the grapple, he can immediately take a 5-foot step in any direction from his opponent. A character, once having escaped, no longer provokes an attack of opportunity just for being in a grapple, including the attack they would have provoked this turn.

Remember that this is a move action, so if you slide out of your opponent's grapple you may be able to stab them for trying to hold you, the nimble escape artist!



After being thrown around and stripped of his weapon, Mercutio is starting to feel a little outmatched. He attempts an escape - rolling opposed grapple modifiers with the assassin. However, his reduced grapple modifier makes escape via strength difficult.

For his second move action, Mercutio attempts to roll an escape artist check versus the assassin's grapple modifier. The assassin rolls higher yet again, spoiling Mercutio's plans.


Cast a Spell: If a spellcaster finds himself in a grapple, the most prudent move is often to escape - after all, those high-strength fighter-types are only a round or two away from snapping your skinny little neck! Sometimes, however, you need a little help from grease or enlarge person or, at higher levels, Tenser's transformation. This column is for you.

To cast a spell in a grapple, Fighter A must first succeed on a modified concentration check to cast defensively.

Fighter B rolls a grapple check, adding the spell's level to the check. The result of this check is the DC for the Fighter A's concentration check.

If the casting is successful, Fighter A's spell goes off successfully.

Unlike other moves on the list, this one requires the same action as the spell Fighter A is attempting to cast, as opposed to being a move action.



Now the assassin has Mercutio right where he wants him - but he is still unsure of the certainty of overcoming his target's grapple modifier. As a bit of insurance, he casts True Strike on himself before going for the throat.

Mercutio rolls a grapple check, subtracting his penalty for being prone and adding 1 for true strike's spell level. The assassin easily passes that concentration check, and the spell goes off.


Break: Possibly the most brutal and effective way to take down your opponent, but also the most difficult, a break is an attempt by Fighter A to cause serious damage, as opposed to just HP damage.

Creatures immune to critical hits are also immune to breaks of any kind - they simply don't feel effects such as these.

All of the breaks described here are standard actions.

Break Leg: Fighter A rolls an opposed attack roll versus Fighter B - but for this maneuver, Fighter A takes a -8 penalty to his attack roll. If Fighter B wins, then the attack fails.

If Fighter A wins, however, he rolls damage for either his unarmed strike or his light weapon of choice. This damage is always counted as lethal damage, and comes with a side effect.

Until Fighter B has the damage dealt to him by this maneuver healed, either by time or a cleric or any other source of healing, his movement speed is reduced to half its normal value.

In addition, Fighter B loses all bonuses to his movement speed, provided those bonuses are non magical in nature - therefore, a Monk or Barbarian's unarmed speed bonus is lost, but a character with Expeditious Retreat cast on them can overcome the penalty somewhat - magic simply overcomes damage.

Break Arm: Fighter A rolls an opposed attack roll with Fighter B, taking a -8 penalty to the roll as with the break leg maneuver. If Fighter B wins the contest, he may immediately attempt to break Fighter A's arm instead as a reaction - though Fighter B's break attempt cannot provoke a new reaction from Fighter A, or the chain could go on forever.

If Fighter A's grapple check is successful, however, he rolls damage for his unarmed strike or light weapon of choice. This damage is always counted as lethal damage, and has a side effect.

Until Fighter B has the damage dealt to him by this maneuver healed, either by time or a cleric or any other source of healing, he suffers a -1 penalty to all die rolls relating to actions requiring the use of his primary hand. This includes (but is not limited to) primary weapon attack and damage rolls, skill and ability checks involving the arms, and grapple checks.

Break Neck: Fighter A rolls an opposed attack roll versus Fighter B, taking a -12 penalty on the roll. If Fighter B wins the contest, he has an opportunity to immediately attempt to Escape, as above, as a reaction.

If Fighter A succeeds, he immediately makes an attack versus Fighter B, automatically hitting and dealing critical damage with his unarmed strike or light weapon of choice, as well as any sneak attack or similar damage the character may be entitled to.



The assassin makes another strike versus his opponent once more at the end of his turn, rendering Mercutio's feeble struggle to escape during his turn worthless. At this point, the assassin has almost completely botched his mission - guards are coming, people are screaming, and it's now undeniable that someone is targeting the nobles of the city.

But he'll be damned if all that happens and his target survives. The assassin ends this, now.

The assassin declares a Break: Neck attack, rolling his grapple modifier -12 versus Mercutio's modifier, and winning thanks to fairly heavy advantages. He then rolls critical dagger damage, finishing off the wounded fighter with a large amount of D6s.

Squeejee
2010-04-12, 01:44 AM
New Feats

Naturally, new rules necessitate new feats, as detailed below.

-----

Improved Grapple

Prerequisites

Dex or Str 13, Improved Unarmed Strike or BAB +3.

Benefit

You gain a +4 bonus on all grapple checks and attack rolls made during a grapple, including the roll to initiate a grapple. In addition, you can no longer provoke an attack of opportunity from failing to grapple an opponent.

Special

A fighter may select Improved Grapple as one of his fighter bonus feats.

A monk may select Improved Grapple as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if she does not meet the prerequisites.

Note: Yes, it's Imp Unarmed Strike OR BAB +3. Fact is, you don't learn to fight with a weapon without also learning how to react to losing one.

-----

Grapple Specialization

Prerequisites

Improved Grapple, Fighter or Monk level 4

Benefit

You gain access to an improved version of the Break maneuvers, as described below.

Break Leg: Fighter A rolls an opposed grapple check versus Fighter B - but for this maneuver, Fighter A takes a -4 penalty to his grapple check. If Fighter B wins, then the attack fails.

If Fighter A wins, however, he rolls damage for either his unarmed strike or his light weapon of choice. This damage is always counted as lethal damage, and comes with a side effect.

Until Fighter B has the damage dealt to him by this maneuver healed, either by time or a cleric or any other source of healing, his movement speed is reduced to half its normal value.

In addition, Fighter B loses all bonuses to his movement speed, provided those bonuses are non magical in nature - therefore, a Monk or Barbarian's unarmed speed bonus is lost, but a character with Expeditious Retreat (or a similar effect) cast on them can overcome the penalty somewhat - magic simply overcomes damage.

Break Arm: Fighter A rolls an opposed grapple check with Fighter B, taking a -4 penalty to the check as with the break leg maneuver. If Fighter B wins the check, he may immediately attempt to break Fighter A's arm instead as a reaction - though Fighter B's break attempt cannot provoke a new reaction from Fighter A, or the chain could go on forever.

If Fighter A's grapple check is successful, however, he rolls damage for his unarmed strike or light weapon of choice. This damage is always counted as lethal damage, and has a side effect.

Until Fighter B has the damage dealt to him by this maneuver healed, either by time or a cleric or any other source of healing, he suffers a -2 penalty to all die rolls relating to actions requiring the use of his primary hand. This includes primary weapon attack and damage rolls, skill checks involving the arms, and grapple checks.

Break Neck: Fighter A rolls an opposed grapple check versus Fighter B, taking a -10 penalty on the roll. If Fighter B wins the check, he has an opportunity to immediately attempt to Escape, as above, as a reaction.

If Fighter A succeeds, he immediately makes a Coup de Grace, unarmed or with a light weapon, resolving it as if Fighter B were helpless.

Special

A fighter can select Grapple Specialization as one of his fighter bonus feats

-----

Clever Wrestling

Prerequisite

Int 13, Combat Expertise

Benefit

At your discretion, you either gain the ability to halve your own size penalty to grapple checks, or halve your opponents bonus to the same, chosen at the beginning of each grapple. If you and your opponent are both Medium, you instead gain a +1 size bonus to your grapple modifier.

Special

A fighter may select clever wrestling as one of his fighter bonus feats.

draco_nite
2010-04-12, 02:07 AM
Is it the fact that the grapple rules make no sense at all, or the fact that it's so easy to foil a grapple the reason that the rules for grappling suck in 3.5?

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-04-12, 02:10 AM
Please take this as constructive criticism - though it might seem unhelpful at first glance...

Your proposed rules are too long. I didn't read them, beyond skimming over the first paragraph and then the headlines.
The problem with the grapple rules is really that they are too unlike the rest of the game, and too complex to remember without refering to the rule book.
I doubt your lengthy proposal fixes that - but like I said: I haven't read it, cause it was too long to hold my attention.

(I'm exaggerating to get the point across.)

Squeejee
2010-04-12, 02:24 AM
@ Draco Nite: Admittedly, I'm more focused on the idea that they're too difficult to pull off, and not very powerful once you get into them.

@ Altair: I see what you mean, but there are a lot of things you can do in a contest of strength. What I've done to try and simplify things is...

a) Accommodate the other special attack rules as completely as possible - so tripping someone or disarming them in a grapple is the same as doing it outside of one, except easier for someone without the "Improved" feats for those moves.

b) Make it clear what can be done over the course of a round - all of the moves save "Cast a Spell" are move actions, so you can attempt two per turn.

c) Make the most out of the grapple modifier - Most everything you do in a grapple is decided by a contest of grapple modifiers, instead of some things using the modifier and others using STR or DEX.

---

Under my rules, most grapples would go like this:

A: I grapple him!
*melee touch attack, successful*
*grapple check, successful*

A: As a move action, I seize the advantage.
*grapple check, successful*

B: I attempt to reverse the hold.
*grapple check, unsuccessful*

Damn! I try again!
*grapple check, still unsuccessful*

A: I pin him.
*grapple check, successful*

I snap his neck.
*modified grapple check, successful*

---

I've tried to make it deadly, but add a bit of strategy - if the two fighters are even, one can gain an advantage by striking the other. If one fighter just wants to subdue the other, he can break his opponents arms or legs for a more permanent advantage.

golentan
2010-04-12, 02:24 AM
My feelings can be summed up as "You thought the grapple rules needed to be expanded?!"

Squeejee
2010-04-12, 02:45 AM
Maybe "Expanded" is the wrong word...

draco_nite
2010-04-12, 03:14 AM
Maybe "Expanded" is the wrong word...

Seems to be appropriate to me.

Merk
2010-04-12, 06:47 AM
I think it would be better if the amount of feats required for grappling were condensed. Perhaps you could have Improved Grapple give the +4 bonus straight away (as is the normal version), and then have a tactical feat that incorporates Clever Wrestling, as well as some of the maneuvers like break, throw, etc.

Riffington
2010-04-12, 07:29 AM
I think you succeeded in adding tactics (to two relatively-equally-matched warriors).
You also made it more deadly for low-level warriors (though not for high-level ones since they lose iterative attacks).
You weakened it against casters, since it's much easier for them to cast out of a grapple. Are you sure you wanted to?

Two easy changes to grappling I'd consider:
*Freedom of movement gives a +4 on escape artist checks, but does not automatically get rid of a grapple.
*To teleport out of a grapple, you must first succeed in an opposed grapple (or escape artist) check. If you win, you successfully teleport. If you chose a grapple check, and lose by 4 or less, you and your opponent both teleport to the chosen location - still grappling. Otherwise you are held in place.

Squeejee
2010-04-14, 02:47 AM
Well, one of my goals with these was to make grappling accessible to any character with at least an average BAB - after all, if you learn to swing a sword, you're probably learning to tackle a fool as well (but don't get me started on D&D weapon proficiencies).

But with the added deadliness for low-level fighters who go to ground, I'm not sure it's entirely balanced to reduce the penalty for snapping a neck from -10 to -6 for a 1st-level character. Also, grapple has always been an underwhelming option for high level characters who are capable of shooting an arrow through your eyes at 2 miles.

IDEA: I think if I make the breaks into a tactical feat, Fighter or Monk level 4 required - essentially Grapple Specialization - that could reduce the feats required. Maybe the "civillian" version of the breaks could have a reduced effect compared to the fighter/monk version...

EDIT: @Draco Nite: Actually, I think mine may be about the same length as the old ones, but with more depth packed in there.

EDIT2: Updated above to clarify some poorly-worded segments and to add examples. At least, I think I've worded everything right this time...

Mulletmanalive
2010-04-14, 01:43 PM
Pathfinder missed the real problem with the Grapple rules in that it left all the complexity in and all the additional stuff that you'd need to remember.

Breaks aught to be a feat. Untrained people are unlikely to be able to break anything on purpose [i've had people try on two occasions and thankfully this theory has held so far]. Likewise, most of the additional stuff should be seperated out and either made into something like skill tricks [maybe you gain the ability to buy them by taking Improved Grapple] or as Feats in and of themselves.

This way, you're not having to try and memorise swathes of stuff and having to look it up because we all at least learn how our own feats work [though some folks don't but they're unlikely to pick grappling options then].

Star Wars took a step in the right direction with this but suffered from a massive case of "what's the point" given that without two feats you can barely do anything with grappling and certainly can't disarm easily...

Squeejee
2010-04-15, 05:10 PM
Well, the idea is that any significantly combat-oriented character will have been trained in grapple techniques, so requiring feats to do something is counter to my design. As it is, you either need to be very successful setting up a break to happen, or you need to have a significant advantage in terms of your grapple modifier to pull one off..

I do see your point, however - I'm toying with the idea of creating a second alternate grapple rule-set, but this time with goal to make things as quick and simple possible. Hmm...

WeLoveFireballs
2010-04-15, 08:32 PM
There is a reason you can't do much with the grapple rules. They are not really meant to be used. Anyone (with the exception of the monk) is better off trying to beat someone to death with a stick that trying to grapple them as it was in real live middle ages. The only point of grappling is to negate casters not to kill people.

waterpenguin43
2010-04-15, 10:18 PM
I like it, actually. Admittedly, it isn't designed for simplicity: And being overly complicated is the main flaw of grapples. This one gives grappling more flavor and power, though, and that seems good. It adds additional combat uses to grappling: Breaking limbs, Smashing, and throwing all make grapples more lethal.
Maybe you should add choking to it, though.
Just my two cents.

Squeejee
2010-04-16, 12:44 AM
There is a reason you can't do much with the grapple rules. They are not really meant to be used. Anyone (with the exception of the monk) is better off trying to beat someone to death with a stick that trying to grapple them as it was in real live middle ages. The only point of grappling is to negate casters not to kill people.

As was said to me when I made a similar point on another forum, let's nip this misconception in the bud, right now. The first link is a full article on wrestling, as it relates to renaissance martial arts (which well includes D&D's tech level).

http://www.thearma.org/essays/G&WinRF.htm

Here's a video of an unarmed man kicking a well armed man's ass. This is basically what I was considering when writing these rules.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz-07Dtp-Qw



Clements readies an action to intercept his opponent's attack with a grapple.

His opponent attacks, Clements' readied action comes up. He makes his unarmed melee touch attack, and succeeds.

The two roll opposed grapple checks, as his opponent tries to avoid Clements' grab. Clements wins.

Now in a grapple, his opponent can no longer use his longsword, and loses his attack. That was his last action this round, so his turn ends.

Clements' turn comes up. He starts with a disarm - rolling opposed attack rolls with his opponent, and winning. He opts to take his opponents sword for his own.

One move action remaining, he opts to perform a throw. He rolls opposed STR with his opponent and wins. He opts to end the grapple, causing his opponent to fall prone in his own square.

For flavor, Clements' player declares "I then point his own sword at his neck, booyah!"


This is a standard part of any warrior's education, and in my opinion, feats should merely make you better at doing these things, not allow to do them in the first place.

Granted John Clements is "the world's foremost practitioner of the Chivalric Arts of Defense," and in D&D would probably have Improved Trip / Grapple / Disarm, and his opponent is deliberately failing his rolls for demonstration purposes, but that doesn't mean it isn't an appropriate example.

Fact is, going to ground is ALWAYS a viable option, and in some cases it's the only way to get enough leverage to defeat an opponent - especially if they're wearing that pesky full plate armor.

EDIT: Here's an example of actual unarmed vs Unarmed, which may seem more relevant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfuMYqfmACM

Skip to about 50 seconds in to see the moves in question. I modeled a few in my system in my head (most of the moves seem to fall under throw or pin), but there's too many for me to start posting examples.

It occurs to me that actions in combat happen far more quickly than D&D's "6-seconds per round" combat timing, but that's a separate issue.

EDIT2: Next planned update here is for rules regarding multiple grapplers. Hopefully I can figure out something really easy...

Trodon
2011-05-26, 02:32 PM
I love these rules. I'm now tempted to make a grappler using these. Unfortunately I can't think of anything else to say for now.

Yitzi
2011-05-26, 05:06 PM
Interesting idea, but the way I understand it grapples are really usually supposed to be something done when you want something that can't be gotten any other way (such as grabbing an enemy who's trying to escape, or keeping him out of the fight when you can't hurt him easily.)
Someone who's good at it will take Improved Grapple (which makes it quite an effective tactic); high-level feats to give further bonuses (or even other advantages) would work too. But the whole "give penalties to grapple checks" system really just makes things more complicated in a relatively unnecessary manner.)

Ashtagon
2011-05-26, 11:16 PM
Here's a video of an unarmed man kicking a well armed man's ass. This is basically what I was considering when writing these rules.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz-07Dtp-Qw


That swordsman is displaying an extreme lack of competence in using his weapon to best effect -- he is making no use at all of his extra reach. Also, I'd treat that as a disarm attack rather than a grapple.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfuMYqfmACM

Skip to about 50 seconds in to see the moves in question. I modeled a few in my system in my head (most of the moves seem to fall under throw or pin), but there's too many for me to start posting examples.


Most of those moves seem to be trip attacks, something that the rules also allow to be done as an unarmed attack.

Honestly I think you are reading "grapple" as "any manoeuvre in which no weapon is held", whilst the rules make it clear that it is an unarmed attack intended to restrict the opponent's physical mobility.

Gideon Falcon
2011-05-27, 12:15 AM
Having critical immune creatures get unbreakable limbs is silly. Who say's I can't break the zombie's legs? Constructs are the ones that have difficult stuff to break. I suggest that when the creature is immune to criticals, you have to roll a strength check to break them just as if you were breaking a statue or skeleton.

Still, I love this system. It's mostly realistic, and it's usable. I also now figured out why people hate grappling, after looking at the PHB AGAIN.

Spiryt
2011-05-27, 05:40 AM
So it's something like streamlined grapple system with more options?

Kinda like, it cannot be more broken than current one, and it actually gives some nice options, like snap the casters arm before he teleports away anyway. :smalltongue:



There is a reason you can't do much with the grapple rules. They are not really meant to be used. Anyone (with the exception of the monk) is better off trying to beat someone to death with a stick that trying to grapple them as it was in real live middle ages. The only point of grappling is to negate casters not to kill people.

This is, as mentioned, as wrong as it can possibly be.

Any form of grappling is natural way of fighting for humans, as we're good at grabbing stuff.

And even if you're armed with "stick", it doesn't mean that you are not afraid of being tripped or whatever, and that you cannot use some grappling to hurt your foe with "stick" more easily.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/De_Fechtbuch_Talhoffer_065.jpg/800px-De_Fechtbuch_Talhoffer_065.jpg

http://www.thearma.org/arttalk/fight2.JPG

http://www.schielhau.org/images/tafel_189.jpg

http://img.kb.dk/ha/manus/th290/kamp0270.jpg

Cheers. :smallwink: