The Warlock - Tier 3 (3.5) [PEACH]

[Tinydwarfman]

The Warlock

My objective in adjusting the warlock was to improve on it, making it tier 3, and also making the ‘fiendish transformation’ aspect more prominent, and to remove the (IMO) out of place magic item stuff. I created a separate track of invocation advancement for blast shapes/essences only, and will be posting some homebrew ones soon. So please tell me what you think.

Alignment: Any, usually Evil or Chaotic
Hit Die: d6

Class Skills:
Diplomacy (Cha), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Disguise
(Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana)
(Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion)
(Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int),
and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier



Custom
{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Invocations|
Eldritch Blast Shapes/Essences

1st|+0|+2|+0|+2|Cantrips, Eldritch Blast 2d6|
1|
1

2nd|+1|+3|+0|+3|Essence Burn, Eldritch Blast 3d6|
2|
1

3rd|+2|+3|+1|+3|Eldritch Blast 4d6|
3|
2

4th|+3|+4|+1|+4|Demonic Fury 2/day (DR 2/Silver, Fast Healing 1), Eldritch Blast 4d6|
3|
2

5th|+3|+4|+1|+4|Eldritch Blast 5d6|
4|
3

6th|+4|+5|+2|+5|Lesser Invocations, Demonic Fury (+2d6, Eldritch Blast 6d6|
5|
3

7th|+5|+5|+2|+5|Eldritch Blast 7d6|
6|
4

8th|+6/+1|+6|+2|+6|Demonic Fury (DR 4/Silver, Fast Healing 3), Eldritch Blast 7d6|
6|
4

9th|+6/+1|+6|+3|+6|Eldritch Blast 8d6|
7|
5

10th|+7/+2|+7|+3|+7|Demonic Fury (+3d6), Eldritch Blast 9d6|
8|
5

11th|+8/+3|+7|+3|+7|Greater Invocations, Eldritch Blast 10d6|
9|
6

12th|+9/+4|+8|+4|+8|Demonic Fury (DR 8/Silver, Fast Healing 6), Eldritch Blast 10d6|
9|
6

13th|+9/+4|+8|+4|+8|Eldritch Blast 11d6|
10|
7

14th|+10/+5|+9|+4|+9|Demonic Fury (+4d6), Eldritch Blast 12d6|
11|
7

15th|+11/+6/+1|+9|+5|+9|Eldritch Blast 13d6|
12|
8

16th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Demonic Fury (DR 16/Silver, Fast Healing 8), Dark Invocations, Eldritch Blast 13d6|
12|
8

17th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Eldritch Blast 14d6|
13|
9

18th|+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|Demonic Fury (+5d6), Eldritch Blast 15d6|
14|
9

19th|+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|Eldritch Blast 16d6|
15|
10

20th|+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Fiendish Apotheosis, Demonic Fury (DR 20/Silver, Fast Healing 10) Eldritch Blast 16d6|
15|
10

[/table]


Invocations(Su): At level 6, and every 3 levels afterwards, a warlock may swap one of her lower level invocations for any other one she does not know, but qualifies for.

Eldritch Blast (Su): As warlock.

Cantrips (Su): A warlock gains the use of any four cantrips from the Sorc/Wiz spell list as Spell-like Abilities useable at will.

Essence Burn (needs a better name): Once per round as a free action, a warlock may use her own life force as fuel for her powers. She may spend 3 HP to increase her caster level for the next spell or SLA that she uses, or an additional 1d6 on her eldritch blast. For every 2 caster levels gained, a warlock adds an additional +1 to the save DC of the invocation she uses. The damage that a warlock suffers from using this ability cannot be healed through magical means. The maximum caster level increase for this ability is ½ her normal caster level, or ½ her current eldritch blast damage.

Demonic Fury (Ex): Twice per day, a warlock may call upon her fiendish heritage for brief periods of time. A warlock may activate this ability as a free action on her turn to partial transform into a fiend for one minute. While in this form she gains Damage Reduction, Fast Healing and additional Eldritch Blast damage depending on her level. She also adds her charisma bonus to her eldritch blast damage. This transformation is not subtle, and grants the warlock a +4 bonus to intimidate per four class levels.

Fiendish Apotheosis (Ex): When a warlock reaches 20th level, her transformation into a fiend is complete. She gains the Outsider (native) type, may use her Demonic Fury ability 4 times per day, and gains the ability to use 2 invocations with a standard action. (this includes eldritch blast)

Adaption: If a warlock gains her powers through descent from a fey, or other supernatural creature instead of a fiendish one, change Demonic Fury to Magical Surge, and change to the intimidate bonus to a bluff bonus as appropriate (a fey warlock’s beguiling nature grants a bluff bonus for example). Depending on the nature of the warlock's powers, a chaotic or evil alignment may not always be fitting, so

New Blast Shapes & Essences:

Eldritch Claws (Least Shape, 1st): Your eldritch blast takes the form of a melee weapon, allowing you to make a single melee touch attack as a standard action with no attacks of opportunity. It also stays until the beginning of your next turn, allowing you to make attacks of opportunity with it.
Power Blast (Lesser Shape, 3rd): Your eldritch blast's damage dice increase by 1 size.
Bladewind (Lesser Shape, 3rd): Make a melee touch attack with your eldritch blast against every opponent within reach. You must have either eldritch claws or improved eldritch claws to take this invocation.
Improved Eldritch Claws (Greater Shape, 5th): As eldritch claws, except you may make a second attack at -5 your base attack bonus as a full round action. You also gain 10’ reach with the weapon.
Eldritch Explosion (Greater Shape, 6th): Your eldritch blast becomes an area of effect blast with medium range, and 15’ radius
Greater Power Blast (Dark Shape, 8th): Your eldritch blast's damage dice increases by 2 sizes.

Impeding Blast (Least Essence, 1st): Target must make a ref save or have his movement speed reduced by 15 feet.
Shocking Blast (Lesser Essence, 4th): Target must make a fort save or suffer intense pain, taking a -4 on attack rolls, AC and have their movement speed reduced by 10ft. A shocking blast deals electricity damage.

[Tinydwarfman]

Added update

[Cieyrin]

That DR gets pretty ridiculous really fast. Why not generalize it a little to DR 5 per advance and change from dash to something obscure, like cold iron?

Demonic Fury happens too few time per day. I mean, you only have 2 uses per day till 20th, provided you don't multiclass out. Why not spread uses out a bit, like 1 per 3 or 4 levels? Also tone back bonus damage, as you're doing a respectable amount as is without getting silly from Demonic Fury.

From a fluff standpoint, not every warlock is making pacts with demons, as there are those than gain power from the fey as well to consider.

Finally, capstones come up so rarely that it's not really an issue, at least for base classes. Why not go for something popping up earlier and just advancing it up to 20th, so they have a lesser powered up version that comes to full power then? Also, maybe something other than apotheosis, as too many other classes change into outsiders as is. >=P

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Tinydwarfman]

That DR gets pretty ridiculous really fast. Why not generalize it a little to DR 5 per advance and change from dash to something obscure, like cold iron?

I am working on the 'adaption' part now, which will allow for feylocks and similar stuff, and will probably change - to something like silver or lawful or good. The problem with static DR increases it damage does not increase statically. DR 24 at 16th actually isn't that good. I'll tone it down earlier though, as my friends have raised similar complaints.


Demonic Fury happens too few time per day. I mean, you only have 2 uses per day till 20th, provided you don't multiclass out. Why not spread uses out a bit, like 1 per 3 or 4 levels? Also tone back bonus damage, as you're doing a respectable amount as is without getting silly from Demonic Fury.
Well it lasts for a minute, so that's usually an entire encounter. Any gradual increases basically make it last throughout every encounter at high levels, and I wanted it to be something you always had to think about.

On damage, I'll probably make it a slightly slower advancement. Working on it now.


From a fluff standpoint, not every warlock is making pacts with demons, as there are those than gain power from the fey as well to consider.
Doing an adaption for fey. Are there any other supernatural sources I should consider?



Finally, capstones come up so rarely that it's not really an issue, at least for base classes. Why not go for something popping up earlier and just advancing it up to 20th, so they have a lesser powered up version that comes to full power then? Also, maybe something other than apotheosis, as too many other classes change into outsiders as is. >=P

The capstone was originally going to be a more advanced version of Demonic Fury, but I couldn't think of any other good boosters too. Also, becoming an outsider just feels so right with this class, but it is sort of cliche. I don't know.


Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Sydonai]

Inevitables, Slaadi Lords, Celestial Paragons, The Far-Plane. There are so many possible power sources for Warlocks that it isn't even funny.

[The Tygre]

Still, I'll be honest, I like this guy. He seems a lot more flavorful then the core warlock, if nothing else.

[Eldan]

Sounds like a good place to link my fey invocations (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145578), I guess.

Have you seen Mhvaughans Warlock 2.0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142707)? You upped the damage on Eldritch Blast significantly, I think I acutally prefered his way of allowing full attacks with the blast.
And I'm not sure if I've ever seen many creatures with DR above 15 in 3.5, and that had a weakness against a material. It seems too high.

[Tinydwarfman]

A few blast shapes and the capstone are stolen from Prime32’s warlock fix. Anyone got any ideas for essences? Still thinking over Demonic Fury’s bonuses.

Thanks for the advice guys.


Sounds like a good place to link my fey invocations (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145578), I guess.

Have you seen Mhvaughans Warlock 2.0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142707)? You upped the damage on Eldritch Blast significantly, I think I acutally prefered his way of allowing full attacks with the blast.
And I'm not sure if I've ever seen many creatures with DR above 15 in 3.5, and that had a weakness against a material. It seems too high.

I have seen it, and I talked with my group about iterative blasts, but we decided against it. I really like rosethorn blast though. Running the numbers, DR 24 is actually not that good at level 16, and 6 at level 8 is also not that special. But so many people seem to be against it, I guess I'll change it.

[Eldan]

Well, a lightning essence has always been lacking. If you make it high level, it could be stunning.

[Warlock Odin]

Hi i like alot of the stuff you have done with the warlock here:smallsmile:, the only thing i can think of right now is that the bladewind shape could be an essence cast with the claws to give them the ability to strike all adjecent targets, or in the case of improved all targets within 10ft.

Possible names for essence burn

bloodletting essence, essence of bloodletter etc
Pactborn essence
Blood of my body for the blood of my enemies (sounds more like a battlecry but ohh well)

[Tinydwarfman]

Various updates, and some essences for the playground. Tell me what you think.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Considering all the possibly power sources pf warlock I don't understand why they must be either chaotic or evi.

I mean, it is much more plausible for a devil to offer warlock powers in a faustian pact than a Demon.

So IMHO there shouldn't be an aligment requirement for warlocks.

[Touchy]

Considering all the possibly power sources pf warlock I don't understand why they must be either chaotic or evi.

I mean, it is much more plausible for a devil to offer warlock powers in a faustian pact than a Demon.

So IMHO there shouldn't be an aligment requirement for warlocks.

More like alignment restrictions based on pact.

[Tinydwarfman]

Considering all the possibly power sources pf warlock I don't understand why they must be either chaotic or evi.

I mean, it is much more plausible for a devil to offer warlock powers in a faustian pact than a Demon.

So IMHO there shouldn't be an aligment requirement for warlocks.

In 3.5, its not a pact, it's being descended from that creature.

Also, I'm never going to homebrew 100 new invocations, so you'll have to stick with the current ones, which are very fiend flavored. I'll add it in the adaption though.

[The Shadowmind]

In 3.5, its not a pact, it's being descended from that creature.

Also, I'm never going to homebrew 100 new invocations, so you'll have to stick with the current ones, which are very fiend flavored. I'll add it in the adaption though.

It is more confusing, it is being a descended of the being that made a pact. Which make the alignment restrictions even more odd.

[Eldan]

I thought the pact idea was also possible?
Basically, the idea was that you make your pact either with an evil creature (Devil, 'loth, demon) or a chaotic creature (fey, eladrin), or are descended from them. Anyway, the idea was that these are the creatures offering pacts, classically, not the lawful ones like archons or modrons.

Oh, and if shocking blast is meant to do electricity damage, as I suggested, you should mention that.

[Tinydwarfman]

Oh, right, I guess I just fixated on the "warlocks are born;not made" line. Will update Shocking Blast as well.

Any other opinions on Demonic Fury's DR, usage and other stuff?

[Tinydwarfman]

Got two new shapes/essences, but they're a bit different from the norm. Need some help deciding on what they should be.

Concussive Blast (Least or Lesser Essence?): Target must make a Ref save or be knocked prone.
Eldritch Shield (Lesser Shape?): As a standard action a warlock may use her blast to create a defensive barrier around herself, granting a deflection bonus equal to her current eldritch blast damage dice divided by 2 (maximum 5), plus an additional 2.

[Tinydwarfman]

So I'm assuming that no news is good news?

[Knaight]

Eldritch Shield (Lesser Shape?): As a standard action a warlock may use her blast to create a defensive barrier around herself, granting a deflection bonus equal to her current eldritch blast damage dice divided by 2 (maximum 5), plus an additional 2.

Honestly, I would probably just make this an invocation, and set it to half caster level. Max 7 deflection bonus is pretty paltry anyways.

[Kobold-Bard]

No offence but the DR is just silly. Barbarians get DR5/- at Level 20 and Monks get some stupid DR/Magic. This annihilates them.

If you're redoing the other classes in a game where this is used then fine. You can't however give this one an amount of DR that nothing else can hope to match, if you think DR needs to be higher then you have to mention that you're doing it across the board, not just for one class. Even the Tarrasque only gets DR15/Epic.

I know this can only be used for 2 minutes/day, but very few combats will ever take longer than that, so it will basically be active any time the Warlock wil be in combat.

[Tinydwarfman]

No offence but the DR is just silly. Barbarians get DR5/- at Level 20 and Monks get some stupid DR/Magic. This annihilates them.

If you're redoing the other classes in a game where this is used then fine. You can't however give this one an amount of DR that nothing else can hope to match, if you think DR needs to be higher then you have to mention that you're doing it across the board, not just for one class. Even the Tarrasque only gets DR15/Epic.

I know this can only be used for 2 minutes/day, but very few combats will ever take longer than that, so it will basically be active any time the Warlock wil be in combat.

More like no one in our group actually takes barb or monk for more than a few levels, but yeah, it's a lot relatively. This is partly because WotC seriously overvalues DR. I mean really, DR 5 at level 20 is just pathetic. When you crunch the numbers, DR 24 isn't actually that good. But it is a little high, especially for a non-melee class, so I'll tone it down some.

[Eldan]

However, it is still a huge lot compared to what monsters get. I mean, let's look at what some monsters get:

Solar: 15/epic and evil.
Great Wyrms: 20/magic. Which, I agree, is pretty pitiful and useless.
Balor: 15/cold iron and good.
Pit Fiend: 15/good and silver
Nightshade: 15/silver and magic
Tarrasque: 15/epic
Titan: 15/lawful.

And epic monsters, even:
The best I found were: Iron collossus (CR 33) 20/epic and adamantine
Devastation Beetle (CR 50) DR 20/--
Force Dragon: 20/epic

I'd agree that 24/-- probably isn't even that good in most games. However, it is significantly better than what anyone else gets... raising all DR for everyone could be a way, of course, but that sounds like a lot of work to balance accurately.

[Magikeeper]

As it were, I've had a player try out a class with a d6 hit die and a large amount of DR (5 at 5, 10 at 10, etc) without a duration limit. Granted, the class in question is melee-centric. It also isn't tier three, but that isn't because of its combat abilities.

That level of DR proved to be very useful in combat. The PC still got nearly killed quite often, but I think that has more to do with my combats being unusually high-powered. The current totals are fine IMO. I agree that barbarian DR sucks for PC purposes. Has anyone ever been really excited about that DR 1?

Some DMs might not like the ranged, utility PC also being a melee tank. The current amounts allow the PC to enter melee at high levels which is sufficient for a peripheral ability, I think. You are not making this ability for a class whose specialty is melee tanking, it's for a class that would like the option to enter melee when it wants to. Useful DR is sufficient, it doesn't have to be good.

I'm not sure about the number of uses and duration though. Having it funtion for 1-2 round(s) per level with uses divided as the warlock chooses might better fit the purpose of the ability.

Also, the scaling pattern isn't consistent which means the ability becomes useless at epic. I would have the capstone give DR = level, fast healing = 1/2 level, and one use per 5 levels. The capstone will only really matter for people going beyond 20th, so make it for them.

------------------


On another note, people who keep talking about low monster DR:

Why does everyone need to have useful DR if one class gets useful DR?

Monster DR is high enough to effect the only PCs that are ever going to care about it. I.E., melee/ranged builds that are dependent on multiple attacks and PCs that aren't very strong. Making it higher wouldn't help that much against the people who don't care about DR (people who deal 60-300 damage per hit) while utterly screwing over the PC builds that do. Also, DR 20 is enough to validate the lower level NPCs being unable to take this thing with a mass arrow swarm which is a good thing.

There are certainly interesting things you can do with a higher-DR monster, but raising DR across the board all of the time just because one class got better DR is absurd.

[Kobold-Bard]

Not everyone needs better dR, but it's kind of a big thing for Barbarians, and they only get 5/- at Level 20. This class had 5 times that 4 levels earlier, which was just crazy (in my opinion at least).

[Knaight]

Yes, and Barbarian DR is worthless. Level 20 Monk DR is useful, but not major, and has the downside of being attached to a level 20 Monk. The current levels are fine, temporary melee DR of 20 is available much earlier to the fairly well balanced TOB classes.

[Kobold-Bard]

Yes, and Barbarian DR is worthless. Level 20 Monk DR is useful, but not major, and has the downside of being attached to a level 20 Monk. The current levels are fine, temporary melee DR of 20 is available much earlier to the fairly well balanced TOB classes.

I'll take your word for ToB, I have only minimal knowledge of it. And yes this is more a problem with existing DR levels being to low to matter, but unless the OP changes them too then this is overpowered in that respect.

Though saying Monk DR is useful is hilarious; DR/Magic at Level 20...really?

[Tinydwarfman]

Well the current formula starts at 2, and gets doubled every 4 levels. That look good everybody? Was 3, 6, 12, 24. Is now 2, 4, 8, 16.

[Magikeeper]

Well the current formula starts at 2, and gets doubled every 4 levels. That look good everybody? Was 3, 6, 12, 24. Is now 2, 4, 8, 16.

Again, that means the ability doesn't increase at epic levels. The pattern doesn't continue at level 20.



Also, the scaling pattern isn't consistent which means the ability becomes useless at epic. I would have the capstone give DR = level, fast healing = 1/2 level, and one use per 5 levels. The capstone will only really matter for people going beyond 20th, so make it for them.

What do you think about my other comment regarding uses per day?


---------------------

The DR of both the barbarian and the monk are both so low that they don't come into play very often. DR 10/Magic is at least cool when dealing with hordes that are far, far beneath you in power and minor traps like a volley of 100 non-magical arrows.

[Tinydwarfman]

Again, that means the ability doesn't increase at epic levels. The pattern doesn't continue at level 20.




What do you think about my other comment regarding uses per day?


---------------------

The DR of both the barbarian and the monk are both so low that they don't come into play very often. DR 10/Magic is at least cool when dealing with hordes that are far, far beneath you in power and minor traps like a volley of 100 non-magical arrows.

Sorry, that was a typo. I don't really care about epic, since no one in my group will use it. The original capstone was meant to increase it further before I changed it though. Will correct that now.

Another poster suggested the gradual increase in time you can use the ability, but I have to disagree with that sentiment. I want the choice to use Demonic Rage to always be one you always have to think about, unlike for a barbarian, who at high levels never enters combat without raging.

[Tinydwarfman]

One last bump before I let it die?