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View Full Version : 300 Movie Persians v.s Middle Earth



DarthArminius
2010-04-14, 10:08 PM
The Persian army sails across the Mediterranean, past the pillars of Hercules, and discovers Middle Earth. This is just before the Fellowship of the Ring.... Assume that Mordor isn't even involved in this thread.

Edit-
What I mean by the 300 Persians is, all the Persians from the movie 300.

WitchSlayer
2010-04-14, 10:21 PM
Iiii don't see how 300 of them would stand a chance.

DarthArminius
2010-04-14, 10:23 PM
Very funny.... The 300 "Movie Persians" From the movie 300.

TheLogman
2010-04-14, 10:33 PM
So, when you say the Persian Army, what do you mean exactly?

Do they have the Immortals? Are the Immortals like the real ones, or the super ones in the movie?

Do they have those massive almost troll-like dudes like in the movie?

Do they have Archers? Cavalry?

Do they have those Magicians?

And what are they doing there? Invading?

One final Question, when you say Versus Middle Earth, what exactly do you mean? How big is the Middle Earth Army? Where are they located, is this an Elven Army, a Human Army, an Orc Army? A combination of all of them? Does Middle Earth get the Big Proper Nouns of the setting? Gandalf? Sauron? Bilbo Baggins? The One Ring?

DarthArminius
2010-04-14, 10:35 PM
So, when you say the Persian Army, what do you mean exactly?

Do they have the Immortals? Are the Immortals like the real ones, or the super ones in the movie?

Do they have those massive almost troll-like dudes like in the movie?

Do they have Archers? Cavalry?

Do they have those Magicians?

And what are they doing there? Invading?

One final Question, when you say Versus Middle Earth, what exactly do you mean? How big is the Middle Earth Army? Where are they located, is this an Elven Army, a Human Army, an Orc Army? A combination of all of them? Does Middle Earth get the Big Proper Nouns of the setting? Gandalf? Sauron? Bilbo Baggins? The One Ring?

Ah... yeah, The Persians have everything they have in the movie... The Middle Earth has Gondor, Rohan, Gandalf..... but probably not Bilbo, or Frodo... but they still might have say, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli... Assume that all of Middle Earth unites, but the war has nothing to do with being bored with the Rings.

WalkingTarget
2010-04-15, 01:02 AM
Ah... yeah, The Persians have everything they have in the movie... The Middle Earth has Gondor, Rohan, Gandalf..... but probably not Bilbo, or Frodo... but they still might have say, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli... Assume that all of Middle Earth unites, but the war has nothing to do with being bored with the Rings.

Well, for one thing, the Persian army was in the millions (well, modern historians dispute that, but the movie isn't really based on what they had to say, so millions it is).

If this (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?4431-Armies-of-Middle-Earth) guy's logic can be trusted (and I don't see a lot of fault with it, personally), the good guys in Middle-earth at the time of the War of the Ring (including the Hobbitry in arms) had about 60,900 on the high end of the estimates.

His numbers also put the bad guys at 123,500 on the low end, so the free people of Middle-earth couldn't hope to win by force of arms alone when only outnumbered 2 to 1. Not sure how well they'd stand up to millions, even with Elves on their side.

Ravens_cry
2010-04-15, 01:38 AM
It's risky, but using a PalantÝr to scout out enemy troop movements could be invaluable. If all Middle Earth unites, that includes the southern oliphaunt riding dudes. Not to mention ents, dwarves, elves of all assortment, dr˙edain and hobbits. If Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit is any indication, Hobbits may like their comforts, but are dangerous when pressed.

Nevadie
2010-04-15, 02:05 AM
Blah blah blah.. The Middle Earth has Gandalf... More talking...

/thread middle earth wins

Unless of course were talking about the grey Gandalf, then they might stand a chance. Against the white Gandalf, there is no winning.

Dallas-Dakota
2010-04-15, 06:26 AM
*Persian Army starts arriving*
*giant eagles or one of the maiar(Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman(possibly, if he realizes that he can't rule anything if he's dead >.> Not to mention that he counted on team good and Sauron having massive losses) spots one of them*
(Or via via, say Aragorn spots them with the Palantir(though you have to specifically be looking with it to spot something...soo no..) But still rumours and messengers are pretty damn fast - Contact important peoples, important peoples contact one of the Maiar.

Valar* go like '' what da heck is dat? A massive army(not from their dimension) bent on qonqouring middle earth*
*Valar pown persian army*

*For the unknowing, they're pretty much (demi-)gods.

Athaniar
2010-04-15, 08:06 AM
Do the Valar even interfere anymore after the destruction of N˙menor, though? I'm not sure, to be honest.

Also, since Middle Earth=Earth, a more plausible (relatively speaking, of course) scenario would be time travel.

valadil
2010-04-15, 08:36 AM
Do the 300 movie Persians have a convenient choke point that someone else wants? If they go to war on a field somewhere, I don't think they're any better off than anyone else. If they hole up in a random corner that's tactically advantageous, they get to sit there as the world ignores them.

Lost Demiurge
2010-04-15, 08:37 AM
Depending on when the Persians arrive... The real battle won't be between the Persians and the Fellowship and their allies. That'll get taken care of, and barring a miracle, the Persians are gonna win it.

Some chance the Fellowship might come through with a miracle, though. So it's not guaranteed.

But to me, the REAL battle will be the Persians against Sauron's forces.

Zevox
2010-04-15, 09:13 AM
Do the Valar even interfere anymore after the destruction of N˙menor, though? I'm not sure, to be honest.
The Valar barely did anything outside of Aman before the downfall of Numenor. Since then the only thing ever did was send the Istari to help oppose Sauron.

Anyway, I can't comment on the topic on the whole sadly. I'm a big Tolkien geek, but have never seen and have no intentions of seeing 300, so I lack the knowledge to discuss half of the fight's combatants.

Zevox

Dallas-Dakota
2010-04-15, 09:32 AM
Indeed, but rather a invasion of things outside of their known universe might tempt them.

Also: Chokepoints :Gap of Rohan / Fall back to Helmsdeep.


Also plausible, with enough warning: Tempting/trying to convince Dragons to enter the fray by promising shiny loot(of which the persian army has plenty, or atleast Xerxes)

Also, do they have Xerxes/high command, otherwise I imagine they'd probably be slaughtered due to not being able to communicate strategy.

Zen Monkey
2010-04-15, 10:09 AM
In a straight military fight, I'd give it to the fictional Persians. They had a good diversity of troops and superior numbers. Unfortunately, Middle Earth has magic (the Persian 'magic' was shown to be just black powder bombs). More specifically, they have mind-controlling magic. If someone could take over Xerxes, then all sorts of terrible orders could be given or they could just be ordered to sail back to Persia.

Texas_Ben
2010-04-15, 10:13 AM
Rohan takes it; They've got cavalry. Legitimate medieval shock cavalry. With stirrups. The persians have never seen anything like it (since ancient cavalry was usually used for flanking and skirmishing and cutting down retreating enemies and stuff), and they certainly aren't prepared to deal with it. Even Gondor, with her much smaller cavalry forces, is going to do a real number on them.
Also, at the battle of Thermopylae, one major advantage held by the greeks was their superior armor. This is something that, if we're going by the movies, the plate-armored gondorians have in scads. They've got good archers too, if their rangers are any indication.

Basically all of their military technology is a few hundred years ahead of the persians, and would seem to have large and well-trained armies. Since we're explicitly going by the movies here, the persian forces would seem to be mainly comprised of untrained conscripts.

Also there's about 30 numenorians, and each one of them has to count for like... 10 spartans. So yeah.

That's just the 2 largest human kingdoms. The dwarves are going to be nasty; super-heavy mastercrafted armor, and handy with their hammers, axes, and swords. Pretty numerous too. The Elves don't really seem like they do that whole "go fourth to battle" thing anymore, but if they were I don't really think you want to be on the receiving end.

DarthArminius
2010-04-15, 10:18 AM
Very interesting.... yet if there are only 69,000 soldiers, can they really defeat 1,000,000 Persians?

Zevox
2010-04-15, 10:27 AM
Unfortunately, Middle Earth has magic (the Persian 'magic' was shown to be just black powder bombs). More specifically, they have mind-controlling magic.
They do :smallconfused: ? The OP didn't sound like the scenario he was describing would include anyone like Morgoth or Glaurung, who are the main examples of mind-affecting magic I can think of in Tolkien's world. Who is it that you think has outright mind-control abilities in this scenario? Gandalf never displayed such, certainly.

Zevox

Yarram
2010-04-15, 10:48 AM
Well Saruman for example used it on the King. I'm sure Gandalf can, but against Sauron/Nazgul he didn't even bother trying because they're too strong willed.

Oslecamo
2010-04-15, 11:27 AM
Very interesting.... yet if there are only 69,000 soldiers, can they really defeat 1,000,000 Persians?

Considering their lack of heavy siege, and that Middle Earth has plenty of high quality fortresses to hide behind, the persians are kinda screwed here. They're bound to be worn down to nothing by hit and run attacks of the high humans heavy cavarly.

DarthArminius
2010-04-15, 11:30 AM
Considering their lack of heavy siege, and that Middle Earth has plenty of high quality fortresses to hide behind, the persians are kinda screwed here. They're bound to be worn down to nothing by hit and run attacks of the high humans heavy cavarly.

They have Olphaunts too, remember? That sounds like siege engines to me.. They could probably even send (Maybe only 1 at a time) them acrross the sea.. although I don't know anything about the Persian Navy.

Athaniar
2010-04-15, 11:36 AM
Well Saruman for example used it on the King. I'm sure Gandalf can, but against Sauron/Nazgul he didn't even bother trying because they're too strong willed.
Although the corruption of King Theoden was mundane in the book(s) (I think), Saruman does have such powers.

Oslecamo
2010-04-15, 11:39 AM
They have Olphaunts too, remember? That sounds like siege engines to me.. They could probably even send (Maybe only 1 at a time) them acrross the sea.. although I don't know anything about the Persian Navy.

No, no,persians have puny elephants.
http://l.yimg.com/eb/ymv/us/img/hv/photo/movie_pix/warner_brothers/300/300_elephant.jpg
The LOTR book clearly state that Olphaunts are distant bigger meanier cousins of the elephants, having become extinct in modern days like most other fantasy animals.
http://mentalfloss.cachefly.net/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/546oliphaunts.jpg

The movie didn't exagerate the size and number of teeths of those mighty beasts.

Dienekes
2010-04-15, 11:40 AM
They have Olphaunts too, remember? That sounds like siege engines to me.. They could probably even send (Maybe only 1 at a time) them acrross the sea.. although I don't know anything about the Persian Navy.

The Persian Navy was very very very big, assumed to be around 1200 triremes plus support vessels.

DarthArminius
2010-04-15, 11:41 AM
No, no,persians have puny elephants. The LOTR book clearly state that Olphaunts are distant bigger meanier cousins of the elephants, having become extinct in modern days like most other fantasy animals. The movie didn't exagerate the size and number of teeths of those mighty beasts.

Excuse me, but I saw 300.... Those were clearly not real life Elephants. Yes, I know that Oliphaunts are different from Elephants... but so are Persian Elephants.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lc674v7Ixw

Riffington
2010-04-15, 11:41 AM
We don't see the Elves in action in the Lord of the Rings, but they can take on the Persians alone without human aid. The Persians have to rely on translators and bureaucracy. This is heavily subject to disruption by enchantments and illusions, getting the Persians to kill themselves.

Oslecamo
2010-04-15, 11:43 AM
Excuse me, but I saw 300.... Those were clearly not real life Elephants. Yes, I know that Oliphaunts are different from Elephants... but so are Persian Elephants.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lc674v7Ixw

Compare the images I edited on my last post. The LOTR beasts are considerably bigger than the persian ones.

Kyouhen
2010-04-15, 11:44 AM
Here's how I see it going down.

The forces of Middle Earth manage to get the Persians to enter a valley/canyon/channel of choice. A forest mysteriously sprouts in the middle of this channel before the Persians arrive. Cut to a sky view of a massive pillar of Persians entering the forest and nothing coming out the other side.

DarthArminius
2010-04-15, 11:47 AM
Compare the images I edited on my last post. The LOTR beasts are considerably bigger than the persian ones.

Hm... O...kk. It has been 4 years since i"ve seen 400 anyway.

Zevox
2010-04-15, 12:13 PM
Well Saruman for example used it on the King. I'm sure Gandalf can, but against Sauron/Nazgul he didn't even bother trying because they're too strong willed.
Er, no. King Theoden was manipulated by Grima Wormtongue's deceit and advice, not magic. Saruman was said to have a supernatural ability to persuade and deceive with his speech, but that's not outright mind control. And there was no indication that Gandalf also had even that ability - and in any event he's always been portrayed as a giver of wise advice, not a deceiver or manipulator.

Zevox

J.Gellert
2010-04-15, 12:13 PM
Legolas isn't weighed down by any shield, and no helmet restricts his vision.

That god-king would be bleeding all over the place, and his army would be dust in the wind.

Mauther
2010-04-15, 12:22 PM
One thing some people are assuming is that Middle Earth would unite. Remember the Persians, especially in the movie, were big fans of buying people off. Its not outside the realm of possibility that Saruman or a dragon could't be bought off to switch sides. Persian agent provacateurs could also sow discord among the weaker nations as they did with the movie Spartans.

But its almost impossible to counter the larger fantasy elements in Tolkien. The only real advantage the Persians have is their ability to go into dramatic slo-mo mode. I'd also argue that most of the elves would refuse to go to war with Xerxes because they'd think he was teh hotness. Hard to shoot a bow when your fanning yourself and giggling like a schoolgirl.

SolkaTruesilver
2010-04-15, 12:27 PM
Er, no. King Theoden was manipulated by Grima Wormtongue's deceit and advice, not magic. Saruman was said to have a supernatural ability to persuade and deceive with his speech, but that's not outright mind control. And there was no indication that Gandalf also had even that ability - and in any event he's always been portrayed as a giver of wise advice, not a deceiver or manipulator.

Except when deceiving and manipulating fitted Gandalf's purpose, which happened more than once.

Zevox
2010-04-15, 12:29 PM
Except when deceiving and manipulating fitted Gandalf's purpose, which happened more than once.
...drawing a blank on any such thing. To what are you referring? :smallconfused:

Zevox

SolkaTruesilver
2010-04-15, 01:10 PM
...drawing a blank on any such thing. To what are you referring? :smallconfused:

Zevox

The walking stick.

Eddums
2010-04-15, 01:21 PM
...drawing a blank on any such thing. To what are you referring? :smallconfused:

Zevox

In terms of manipulation, the vast majority of the book.
Most of what happens is according to Gandalf's design. It's not malevolent manipulation, but it's manipulation, none-the-less.

WalkingTarget
2010-04-15, 01:23 PM
Also, at the battle of Thermopylae, one major advantage held by the greeks was their superior armor. This is something that, if we're going by the movies, the plate-armored gondorians have in scads.

Unless we're going by the LotR movies as well (which I didn't see any reference to, I may have just missed that, though), there isn't much plate armor in Middle-earth (Prince Imrahil is mentioned as having a set of vambraces a few times, which makes me think that such items were rare). The look that Tolkien was going for was the type of things that you'd find on the Bayeux Tapestry so there's plenty of chain around, but not plate. I'm not really a weapons/armor guy, so I don't know how much of a difference that'd make regarding fighting the movie Persians, but I thought I'd get that out there.

Zen Monkey
2010-04-15, 01:51 PM
Er, no. King Theoden was manipulated by Grima Wormtongue's deceit and advice, not magic. Saruman was said to have a supernatural ability to persuade and deceive with his speech, but that's not outright mind control. And there was no indication that Gandalf also had even that ability - and in any event he's always been portrayed as a giver of wise advice, not a deceiver or manipulator.

Zevox

This may depend on what LoTR you are describing. In the film, Theoden was definitely under a spell. Saruman spoke through him, and when Gandalf broke the spell with his magic stick the king's eye and hair color changed. No matter how persuasive someone is, they don't talk my eyes into changing color and cause my hair to instantly change in length.

Relevant to the battle, that same sort of magic applied to Xerxes would ruin the Persians, when their god-king starts giving them orders that they are afraid to question but still make no sense.

Texas_Ben
2010-04-15, 02:41 PM
Unless we're going by the LotR movies as well (which I didn't see any reference to, I may have just missed that, though), there isn't much plate armor in Middle-earth (Prince Imrahil is mentioned as having a set of vambraces a few times, which makes me think that such items were rare). The look that Tolkien was going for was the type of things that you'd find on the Bayeux Tapestry so there's plenty of chain around, but not plate. I'm not really a weapons/armor guy, so I don't know how much of a difference that'd make regarding fighting the movie Persians, but I thought I'd get that out there.

Since we're comparing it to a movie, using the movie for comparison makes sense. And don't even get me started on the armor in the movies. There are a lot of huge problems with the movies, but the "thousands of dudes decked out in full plate gee whiz mr" is very high on my list of things about the movies that makes me RAGE. RAAAAAAGGGGEEEEEE.

At any rate, I still think that the movies are a better basis for comparison, just because it's easier to compare things of the same medium.

WitchSlayer
2010-04-15, 04:45 PM
Very funny.... The 300 "Movie Persians" From the movie 300.

I really thought that's what you meant, in all honesty.

Zevox
2010-04-15, 05:23 PM
The walking stick.
The what now :smallconfused: ? You're going to have to be more specific than that.


In terms of manipulation, the vast majority of the book.
Most of what happens is according to Gandalf's design. It's not malevolent manipulation, but it's manipulation, none-the-less.
If by "manipulation" you mean that he helped convince everyone to work together to deal with the threat of Sauron and the Ring, I suppose. But that's quite different from Saruman lying and deceiving people to further his own agenda - it in fact falls under that "wise advisor" category I previously mentioned Gandalf being portrayed as.


This may depend on what LoTR you are describing. In the film,
Unless I explicitly say otherwise, whenever I talk about LotR, I am referring to the books. Those are the originals - the films are merely derivative. As such, where the two conflict, the books take precedence when it comes to discussing the world's lore. And in the books, Theoden was under no spell, he was simply being manipulated by Grima.

Zevox

WalkingTarget
2010-04-15, 11:41 PM
The what now :smallconfused: ? You're going to have to be more specific than that.

He's referring to when Gandalf managed to bluff the door-wards to Theoden's throne room to allow him to keep his staff (so as not to rob an "old man" of his support).

Mauther
2010-04-16, 02:44 PM
Unless I explicitly say otherwise, whenever I talk about LotR, I am referring to the books. Those are the originals - the films are merely derivative. As such, where the two conflict, the books take precedence when it comes to discussing the world's lore. And in the books, Theoden was under no spell, he was simply being manipulated by Grima.

Zevox

Well that doesn't seem fair. If the Persians have to be the ridiculous chop sockeys from 300, the Ghondorians should get the Excalibur makeover.

TheBlackShadow
2010-04-20, 10:23 AM
Lets not forget that the Middle-Earthers have the advantage of terrain - the Persians are exploring a completely new and alien land, and it wouldn't be unreasonable for the ME'ers to manoeuvre them into Fangorn Forest, the Dead Marshes, or a Plot Exposition Chapter, where they would be lost forever.

Ganurath
2010-04-20, 10:51 AM
He's referring to when Gandalf managed to bluff the door-wards to Theoden's throne room to allow him to keep his staff (so as not to rob an "old man" of his support).He wasn't bluffing, that same guy who "fell for it" held back the other guards when the Fellowship started messing up Grima's minions. He knew exactly what was going on.

As for the OP, I'll give this one to Middle Earth. They'd bribe their way into the lands of Hobbits and adjacent human territories, and use those as a beachhead from which to launch. Through the eyes of orcs in the area, Sauron sees legions that make his forces look scarce and is properly intimidated. Through Rivendell, the elves and thus the rest of free Middle Earth are made aware of this new threat.

The Uruk-Hai sent to attack Helms Deep are made to keep marching. The orcs attacking the elves and dwarves that never get enough attention are made to move to the choke points free Middle Earth doesn't properly defend. The attacks on Gondor cease as the strength of Mordor is directed north into Rhun in preperation for a flanking manuever against the invaders.

Using the Palantir, Denethor is provided this information as to the short-term agenda of Mordor. While Faramir wants to fight Mordor initially, his aged second in command convinces him that anything that would have Mordor want to side with us is a threat worth considering.

Meanwhile, the Persians continue their advance. Rivendell is forced to evacuate inland. When the Persians try to cross the mountains, Saruman works his magic to blizzard them to bits. The Persians scout around for alternate routes, and find two possibilities: Mordor and Rhun. After tunneling into Mordor, they find that fighting crossbowmen that can walk on walls isn't efficienct where light infantry is concerned, and are forced to retreat.

Then, the Persians try Rhun. The language barrier is in full effect, and the locals are too violent to bribe with body language alone, especially not when the flanking force arrives. Persian infantry are skewered by the bows and spears of the orcs. Persian elephants are trampled by the Oliphaunts. Persian immortals are out-supered by armored trolls.

Without obvious routes, the Persians press south for easier options, having been beaten at their own game blow for blow. The Mordor forces in Rhun withdraw back after raiding the rear of the Persians to ensure they don't press the attack. Eventually, the Persians come upon the Gap of Rohan. And the Uruk-Hai.

Persians versus Uruk-Hai in the Gap of Rohan... It'd be like historical 300, only with crossbow and berserker support instead of a traitor to allow for a flanking attack. Uruks hold the line long enough for a scout to inform Rohan of the Persian's arrival, at which point the Rohirrim ride out to meet the foe. By the time attrition has nearly wiped out the Uruk-Hai, they make way for something the Persians wouldn't dream of: Shock cavalry charge.

Every route that the Persians could possibly take leads to a massacre. Even if Middle Earth doesn't unite against them, all it would take is for Sauron to see the threat and he'll take ten to make sure it's wiped out. He will not be second to any Xerxes.

Whammydill
2010-04-20, 12:53 PM
Xerxes wouldn't even put up a fight, one sight of Legolas' booty and his knees get weak.

Xerxes: "Oh Legolas, we can take Hedonism to a whole new level! Now shake that money maker girl"

Legolas: "But I'm a guy!"

Xerxes: "That works too..."

Hopeless
2010-04-26, 05:24 AM
Thw way i see it is that the persians will try and get a good feel of what they're facing, so how do you think they're going to react when they find out an ancient force of evil was taken down by a pair of barely half sized humanoids who break through an otherwise inpenetrable line of an immense army that makes their numbers look barely noticeable.

Then they find out that Aragorn and two of his allies stormed an underground necropolis and dragged the countless army of the dead to storm through a force that would send the entire persian civilisation running into the hills for a few generations before letting them go just because a few millions persians wasn't that much of a threat?

Think on that, the Persians pride themselves on trade and intimidation witgh Sauron gone the Palantir can be used so Aragorn knows how many they are, where they're based and more importantly has links with the dwarves, elves, rohirrim, the rest of the rangers, etc, so that mountain the Perisans are bound to put at their back will either serve as a suitable point for the dwarves to come out and have a "chat" or the goblins will have fun doing the same since these guys are not Sauron so they aren't going to be scared into doing anything for them!

The real question is do the Persians actually get far enough to attack anyone before they're attacked since Middle Earth even after the end of the LOTR is a far more dangerous place than where the Persians came from...

Surrealistik
2010-04-26, 10:28 AM
Very interesting.... yet if there are only 69,000 soldiers, can they really defeat 1,000,000 Persians?

No, barring utterly insane force multipliers which I don't think Middle Earth has.

paddyfool
2010-04-26, 10:56 AM
The Persians' main weak spot lies in Xerxes, and his arrogance. If he has a close encounter with Saruman, for instance, he's likely to find himself mentally dominated. Similarly, if he looks into a Palantir, with Sauron. Never mind what happens if he gets hold of the one ring (and it of him). And even without that kind of magic, he's still a prime target for a decapitation strike, whether by dragon, balrog, nazgul, elven archery, or whatever else.

And then, even if the Persians manage to protect their leadership, and have a massive numerical advantage, they're still ****ed for the following reasons:
- Supplies: How are they supposed to feed that army, so far from supply lines, in lands used to supporting far smaller forces?
- Morale: The Nazgul or the army of the dead could cause a rout among Xerxes' army quick as you like. Dragons, Balrogs, Oliphaunts, Ents, Huorns and/or Trolls wouldn't exactly be good for morale either. And what was described as a slave army might not need very much incentive to turn on its masters... or at any rate, steal some ships and get the heck back home.
- Tech: As explained earlier, they'd have a really hard time against opponents with better cavalry, armour, weapons, artillery and fortresses.
- Intel: Palantirs, aerial recon, and excellent scouts mean that multiple middle earth forces would rapidly become very aware of the Persians, their strengths and their weaknesses. The Persians, meanwhile, don't know the land and don't speak the language(s), so will be wandering around blindly.

So yeah... I give it to Middle Earth.

warty goblin
2010-04-26, 11:17 AM
No, barring utterly insane force multipliers which I don't think Middle Earth has.

If we were talking historical Persians then yes. However we're talking movie Persians, so...

Let's be honest, in 300 the Persians were getting their asses kicked by idiots fighting idiotically with idiot tactics and idiot weapons.

Tactics: Major fail on the Spartans, they broke their phalanx. Against a competent foe this earns you a prompt defeat. The bit where the movie Persians continued to lose to them is not a positive indication of their fighting ability.

Combat Technique: Funny thing, it's actually very difficult to hit somebody defending themselves with a shield. Being able to reliably pull off one hit kills against an enemy so equipped-as the Spartans are able to do- shows a serious lack of training on the Persian part.

Weapons: Those spears are jokes, far, far too short for effective use against an enemy fighting in any sort of formation.

Armor: There wasn't any on either side.

Now assuming book version Middle Earth, let's look at the Rohirrim. I'll assume a technology level consistent with the period leading up to the Norman conquest although with obviously much more advanced fortification building. This implies that Rohan will be equipped with full body iron chainmail, iron spangenhelms, leather fronted wooden shields, pattern welded (at worst, by this point Europe was beginning to produce higher quality steel directly) iron weapons, and stirrups. All of these areas represent significant quantitative advantages.

Then there's the bit where the Rohirrim actually use tactics somewhat more sophisticated than 'charge.' Organized heavy cavalry attacks, and actual shield walls (Eomer at least considered forming one at Pelennor Fields to make a final stand). Sure the numbers are fairly badly against them, but discipline and technology is definitely on Middle Earth's side here, overwhelmingly in the first case.



And supposing that Xerxes can defeat the Free Peoples, he's absolutely screwed against Sauron. Why? Trolls. The damn things are nearly impervious to weapons forged by ordinary people, and at the Black Gate Sauron revealed he could deploy armored trolls in reasonable mass. Those are gonna make the Spartans look like happy kittens frolicking in the sunshine.

Scylfing
2010-04-26, 11:18 AM
...drawing a blank on any such thing. To what are you referring? :smallconfused:

Zevox

There was the beginning of The Hobbit, you know the whole setting up an unsuspecting Bilbo as "the thief" of the party. Not mind control but definitely manipulation.

And again with Bilbo, it was Gandalf who cajoled him into leaving the Ring behind. He didn't command him to do it, which it's said would've broken Bilbo, but he could have if Bilbo had proven obstinate.

Keshay
2010-04-26, 12:13 PM
An army of a million soldiers (soldiers only, along with significant numbers of support personel) would have a significant effect on the local ecology. Who in Middle Earth tends to get upset when the envoronment is messed with? Ents. As mentioned before, the Persian army would disappear into a forrest that wasn't there when they went to sleep long before they ever made it to the fight.

Anteros
2010-04-26, 02:52 PM
Very interesting.... yet if there are only 69,000 soldiers, can they really defeat 1,000,000 Persians?

Consider than the Persian army was eventually defeated in both the movie and real life by Greek forces vastly lesser in number than they. Modern consensus puts Greek numbers at the battle of Plataea at around 40,000, although Herodotus places the number at closer to 110,000. In the movie 300 they appear to have about 20,000-40,000 men (very rough eyeball estimate).

Honestly the movie Persians weren't that great. I mean, they got held up in a pass by 300 enemy soldiers who weren't even wearing armor. (This is not what happened in real life. At all.)

Considering that the LOTR setting is much more powerful than ancient Greece, I'd give this to Middle Earth hands down.

Oslecamo
2010-04-26, 04:08 PM
Consider than the Persian army was eventually defeated in both the movie and real life by Greek forces vastly lesser in number than they. Modern consensus puts Greek numbers at the battle of Plataea at around 40,000, although Herodotus places the number at closer to 110,000. In the movie 300 they appear to have about 20,000-40,000 men (very rough eyeball estimate).

Honestly the movie Persians weren't that great. I mean, they got held up in a pass by 300 enemy soldiers who weren't even wearing armor. (This is not what happened in real life. At all.)


Don't forget that it wasn't actualy one million persians. One quarter million at best and the remaining was persian propaganda. There's just no way you could deal with the logistics to keep that kind of numbers moving. They would literally need to dry rivers to don't die of thirst.

Even Leonidas confirms that on the movie, saying that the numbers the persians claim they have is clearly cheap talk to try to scare them, but they're still facing a pretty big force neverthless

Plus, the other greeks do give the spartans a hand (or a thousand) even in the movie. By the book that the movie was inspired several other greek cities showed up adding thousands of soldiers and at least one of those reinforcment forces stayed behind to hold the line with the spartans at the end.

Now, as for the armor, yes, that's completely ridiculous.

Makensha
2010-04-26, 06:21 PM
I think Ganurath and Warty Goblin win the thread. The "300" movie Persians are idiots, and the people of Middle Earth not only know the terrain, outgear, out-train them, and out "secret weapon (Compare elephants and Immortals to trolls and Oliphants, seriously)" them, but they use far more advanced tactics. While Persia may be able to beat the typical soldier, there are just too many guys in Middle Earth that Persia doesn't have a defense against.

ThePhantasm
2010-04-26, 08:02 PM
I think Ganurath and Warty Goblin win the thread. The "300" movie Persians are idiots, and the people of Middle Earth not only know the terrain, outgear, out-train them, and out "secret weapon (Compare elephants and Immortals to trolls and Oliphants, seriously)" them, but they use far more advanced tactics. While Persia may be able to beat the typical soldier, there are just too many guys in Middle Earth that Persia doesn't have a defense against.

I concur. In addition, whatever diversity the Persian army has pales compared to the military diversity in Middle Earth.

Kneenibble
2010-04-26, 11:05 PM
And supposing that Xerxes can defeat the Free Peoples, he's absolutely screwed against Sauron. Why? Trolls. The damn things are nearly impervious to weapons forged by ordinary people, and at the Black Gate Sauron revealed he could deploy armored trolls in reasonable mass. Those are gonna make the Spartans look like happy kittens frolicking in the sunshine.

I'm really liking the idea of sexy manbeast Xerxes on the end of a leash in Sauron's hand. Rawr.

warty goblin
2010-04-26, 11:09 PM
I'm really liking the idea of sexy manbeast Xerxes on the end of a leash in Sauron's hand. Rawr.

And the thing you gotta remember about Sauron is that he's burnin' hawt. Since Xerxes kinda seems like the submissive sort anyway, he'd be in heaven!

Kneenibble
2010-04-26, 11:14 PM
Yes! :smallbiggrin:

I like the way you think, sir.

Zevox
2010-04-27, 12:31 AM
And the thing you gotta remember about Sauron is that he's burnin' hawt.
[parade raining] Actually, Sauron can't take on physical forms that humans would find beautiful ever since the fall of Numenore. [/parade raining]

Zevox

warty goblin
2010-04-27, 12:33 AM
[parade raining] Actually, Sauron can't take on physical forms that humans would find beautiful ever since the fall of Numenore. [/parade raining]

Zevox

He can, however, be quite literally burning hot. Hence the origin of my horrible, horrible pun.

Kneenibble
2010-04-27, 12:39 AM
And when you rain on Sauron's parade, he's steaming hawt. Yowza.