PDA

View Full Version : Dragons arrogance vs Elans.



druid91
2010-04-15, 03:56 PM
One of the primary things that makes dragons in general look down on the "lesser beings" is the fact that they have shorter life spans. Well what happens when the great wyrm blue dragon meets the high level 5000 year old elan psion? Assuming the two don't just try to kill each other.
The psion is just as powerful if not more powerful than the dragon and is nearly double his maximum age with no signs of slowing down.

Prime32
2010-04-15, 03:57 PM
Reposting:

Note that Eberron's elans are basically jinchuuriki - the result of a quori being sealed into a human body he can't control as punishment.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-15, 03:59 PM
I'd say assuming, not hostile for other reasons: he might respect the Elan.

druid91
2010-04-15, 04:00 PM
Reposting this.

Yeah which is better than the standard, its secret and you don't need to know, approach.

Otodetu
2010-04-15, 04:55 PM
Never liked the Elan race, it is great for npc's but hardly a fitting choice for a player character.

druid91
2010-04-15, 05:01 PM
Why not? they seem fine to me, they are better than the standard elf, dwarf, halfling, or human, choices.

AslanCross
2010-04-15, 05:08 PM
You're assuming the dragon doesn't have class levels himself. A Great Wyrm Red Dragon Wizard 10/Archmage 5/Loremaster 5 has a lot of good reasons to be arrogant even alongside a 5000-year old Elan.

I don't think dragon arrogance comes from being ancient as much as from being an enduring, primordial race. In many cosmologies, they had an inherent grasp of things arcane long before any other race did, and their understanding has outlived empires founded on epic magic.

Gamgee
2010-04-15, 05:12 PM
Depends on the type of dragon, and even then there can be some variety of opinions. Sky's the limit.

A red dragon would probably be pretty envious, and perhaps have a go at it before realizing it bit off more then it could chew. Then promptly flee to plan.

The Green Dragon would be immensely suspicious of such a god like figure (in his eyes) and probably do his best to use the situation to his advantage without putting himself in danger. Respect the power, but not necessarily the person.

A White Dragon would probably become paranoid at something capable of bullying him. Most likely going to great lengths to protect himself, and probably feel terror at not being in the position to bully. That and confused that such a bumbling and small creature could be so vastly powerful. Would try and seek vengeance for anything if he got the chance.

A Black Dragon would probably attempt to hide itself and not earn the wrath of such a potent enemy. If possible it may risk trying to gather some intel if it feels the risks are worth it. If for some reason he gets a big reason to go after said Elan he may perhaps set some elaborate trap for him.

A Blue Dragon would probably act similar to a green dragon, but a bit more honest. It may be compelled to talk to the Elan, and perhaps set things straight with him. While futile it is at least a "lawful ish" thing to do. After that it might start talking alliances, or perhaps just discussing depending on alignment. It would be the least likely of the chromatic dragons to attack it or plot vengeance. Although with any dragon it wouldn't pass up a good opportunity to do so.

druid91
2010-04-15, 05:14 PM
I was going off the draconomicon which says that they feel superior in large part because they "Hold at bay the great entity of time while a whole host of lesser creatures succumb to its advance." or something like that. well this is a humanoid, not that distinguishable from a human, and they are immortal unless killed.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-15, 05:15 PM
I would say that the dragon would have little reason to see the elan as "5000 years old", and would thus regard it as it would any other fleshling.

druid91
2010-04-15, 05:16 PM
I would say that the dragon would have little reason to see the elan as "5000 years old", and would thus regard it as it would any other fleshling.
Good point.
Okay say this dragon saw the exact same elan when he was a wyrmling, this is what a couple thousand years later?

Whammydill
2010-04-15, 05:20 PM
Elan: I'm over 9000 years old...

Dragon: Prove it......ah, not impressed. Now I'm going to fly away before you utilize your broken racial feats and abilities against me, since for some reason you are so powerful yet so tasty looking, yet I can't hurt you.

Prime32
2010-04-15, 05:21 PM
Good point.
Okay say this dragon saw the exact same elan when he was a wyrmling, this is what a couple thousand years later?"Clearly this human is a time traveller. An ugly time traveller."

druid91
2010-04-15, 05:29 PM
Elan: I'm over 9000 years old...

Dragon: Prove it......ah, not impressed. Now I'm going to fly away before you utilize your broken racial feats and abilities against me, since for some reason you are so powerful yet so tasty looking, yet I can't hurt you.

How are they broken?


"Clearly this human is a time traveller. An ugly time traveller."

lol

Nero24200
2010-04-15, 05:31 PM
I don't think dragon arrogance comes from being ancient as much as from being an enduring, primordial race. In many cosmologies, they had an inherent grasp of things arcane long before any other race did, and their understanding has outlived empires founded on epic magic.


Their arrogance and seeing the other races as savage may have something to do with teh fact that you don't see anyone wearing "Elan-Skin" armour :smallamused:

For all their intellegence and wisdom, many regard dragons as monsters, so it's only natural that, if they feel such a classification is unjust, they see such people as ignorant.

druid91
2010-04-15, 05:33 PM
Their arrogance and seeing the other races as savage may have something to do with teh fact that you don't see anyone wearing "Elan-Skin" armour :smallamused:

For all their intellegence and wisdom, many regard dragons as monsters, so it's only natural that, if they feel such a classification is unjust, they see such people as ignorant.

Well, there is that one class from lords of madness....

Thrawn183
2010-04-15, 05:45 PM
I'd expect they'd respect each other greatly. The elan has probably been one of the few constants of the dragon's world (think how much the map has probably changed), but at the same time, the Elan would have no way of just looking at the dragon and telling how many class levels it has. And no one in their right mind would thing of treating a Great Wrym Dragon with who knows how many class levels with anything other than respect.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-15, 06:05 PM
I'd expect they'd respect each other greatly. The elan has probably been one of the few constants of the dragon's world (think how much the map has probably changed), but at the same time, the Elan would have no way of just looking at the dragon and telling how many class levels it has. And no one in their right mind would thing of treating a Great Wrym Dragon with who knows how many class levels with anything other than respect.

I would think that Elans, being much more involved in the affairs of mortals, have a much higher propensity to have their endless life span cut short by stabbity.

After all, they breed faster, and they haven't overrun the world.

As for how dragons would judge them? Well, we're all judged by the company we keep. "Elans and other fleshlings are the real monsters. They wear the skin of my kind as a suit."

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-15, 06:08 PM
As for how dragons would judge them? Well, we're all judged by the company we keep. "Elans and other fleshlings are the real monsters. They wear the skin of my kind as a suit."Draconic Armani?

NEO|Phyte
2010-04-15, 06:10 PM
After all, they breed faster, and they haven't overrun the world.

Uh, they don't breed. The default 3.5 fluff has humans selected by some secret council thing for transformation into an elan.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-15, 06:11 PM
Uh, they don't breed. The default 3.5 fluff has humans selected by some secret council thing for transformation into an elan.

Remaining point on company kept is valid.

Ernir
2010-04-15, 07:11 PM
I think it would depend more on the level of the Elan than its age.

Because seriously, I can't imagine the dragon paying much respect to a level 1 Elan Commoner, even if said Elan Commoner has been an Elan Commoner for 5000 years.

"Seriously? It's been 1500 years since we last met, and you're still a dirt farmer? :smallconfused:"

druid91
2010-04-15, 07:16 PM
I think it would depend more on the level of the Elan than its age.

Because seriously, I can't imagine the dragon paying much respect to a level 1 Elan Commoner, even if said Elan Commoner has been an Elan Commoner for 5000 years.

"Seriously? It's been 1500 years since we last met, and you're still a dirt farmer? :smallconfused:"

I did say a high level psion.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-15, 07:24 PM
I think it would depend more on the level of the Elan than its age.

Because seriously, I can't imagine the dragon paying much respect to a level 1 Elan Commoner, even if said Elan Commoner has been an Elan Commoner for 5000 years.

"Seriously? It's been 1500 years since we last met, and you're still a dirt farmer? :smallconfused:"

"What can I say. It is rewarding for the soul."

Ranger Mattos
2010-04-15, 07:44 PM
When I first saw this, I thought it would be something obscure about the latest OotS comic that had been placed in the wrong forum :smalltongue:

But on topic, I think any dragon would still think that he's more powerful, no matter what the age. He's a freaking dragon. If they did happen to fight, cast Antimagic Field if the dragon had learned it (what dragon wouldn't?) and that fleshling is as good as dead.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-15, 07:53 PM
When I first saw this, I thought it would be something obscure about the latest OotS comic that had been placed in the wrong forum :smalltongue:

But on topic, I think any dragon would still think that he's more powerful, no matter what the age. He's a freaking dragon. If they did happen to fight, cast Antimagic Field if the dragon had learned it (what dragon wouldn't?) and that fleshling is as good as dead.

The Dragon realizes his DR/Breagth weapon is worthless in an Antimagic field, right?
Sure he has brute strength, but that only goes so far.

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-15, 08:34 PM
The Dragon realizes his DR/Breagth weapon is worthless in an Antimagic field, right?
Sure he has brute strength, but that only goes so far.

Since when is dragon DR supernatural? In fact, dragon DR doesn't work NORMALLY because it is DR/magic and by the time you're facing a dragon that can cast spells, everyone is going to bypass DR/magic just by sneezing. In an AMF, it's actually useful.

A dragon's breath weapon, while powerful, is rarely used more than twice in a typical D&D combat unless the dragon is making strafing runs. A dragon's power is usually focused in its melee attacks. Pounce is fairly easy to acquire as a dragon, so a dragon who managed to cast an antimagic field as a swift action and then lunge into it would be at a significant advantage.

Brute strength gets you EVERYWHERE when you turn magic off. And when they move out of the field? His breath weapon might be recharged.

obnoxious
sig

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-15, 08:37 PM
"What can I say. It is rewarding for the soul."

Well you must not actually be farming then, because after 13 level appropriate ecological challenges, you should level up.

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-15, 08:39 PM
Well you must not actually be farming then, because after 13 level appropriate ecological challenges, you should level up.

To gain experience, one has to actually overcome those challenges. Nobody said that he is good at what he does.

obnoxious
sig

Prime32
2010-04-15, 08:40 PM
Since when is dragon DR supernatural? In fact, dragon DR doesn't work NORMALLY because it is DR/magic and by the time you're facing a dragon that can cast spells, everyone is going to bypass DR/magic just by sneezing. In an AMF, it's actually useful.

A dragon's breath weapon, while powerful, is rarely used more than twice in a typical D&D combat unless the dragon is making strafing runs. A dragon's power is usually focused in its melee attacks. Pounce is fairly easy to acquire as a dragon, so a dragon who managed to cast an antimagic field as a swift action and then lunge into it would be at a significant advantage.

Brute strength gets you EVERYWHERE when you turn magic off. And when they move out of the field? His breath weapon might be recharged.

obnoxious
sigI believe there was a ruling on which types of DR are supernatural and which are extraordinary.

Asbestos
2010-04-15, 08:42 PM
The Dragon realizes his DR/Breagth weapon is worthless in an Antimagic field, right?
Sure he has brute strength, but that only goes so far.
Against a AMFed Psion it would go very far probably.

Jack_Simth
2010-04-15, 08:58 PM
To gain experience, one has to actually overcome those challenges. Nobody said that he is good at what he does.

obnoxious
sig
Especially considering that if his farming fails utterly, his personal survival is generally unaffected.

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-15, 09:04 PM
Against a AMFed Psion it would go very far probably.

I thought psionic/magic transparency was default, which means AMF shuts off psionics too. Am I wrong?

Edit: I misread


I believe there was a ruling on which types of DR are supernatural and which are extraordinary.

Hm. It's in the 3.5 MM errata. DR/magic is supernatural.

Now to utter a phrase I have not uttered since I was a wee lad, kneehigh to a parsnip:

"That's stupid."

obnoxious
sig

Asbestos
2010-04-15, 09:07 PM
I thought psionic/magic transparency was default, which means AMF shuts off psionics too. Am I wrong?



Yes, which is why the brute strength of the dragon would 'go far' in a fight with the elan. Once the AMF is up the elan would be doomed.

Jack_Simth
2010-04-15, 09:09 PM
Yes, which is why the brute strength of the dragon would 'go far' in a fight with the elan. Once the AMF is up the elan would be doomed.Not necessarily. If he can successfully move out and port away, he's fine. Consider: What's the area of an AMF, and how big is the smallest non-classed dragon that can cast it by natural spellcasting?

druid91
2010-04-15, 09:28 PM
Well, if the elan already has one of a few powers active he just comes back later, the dragon can't kill him.

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-16, 03:34 AM
Not necessarily. If he can successfully move out and port away, he's fine. Consider: What's the area of an AMF, and how big is the smallest non-classed dragon that can cast it by natural spellcasting?

The dragon doesn't need to be completely in it. Only its opponent does. Then the dragon can either full melee him or grab him and chew for awhile.

obnoxious
sig

Zen Master
2010-04-16, 04:43 AM
Seriously, people need to stop thinking of dragons as being in any way related to what the books present.

An elan, upon entering the lair of a great wyrm, would be greeted by the words:

'You're late, Faedal Soulspark. It is fated that we will fight, and that I will triumph. Shall we get on with it, or is there some idle threat you'd like to utter first? I can wait that long.'

There is a reason for this: The dragon starts out being far more powerful than the elan, and has every opportunity to grow in power faster than the elan. No matter the age of the elan, the dragon has every reason to expect to totally obliterate him.

Except for that, I heartily hate dragon - due to overuse, predictability, shabby fluff (that I could do better but don't because of the other two reasons), and the fact that I basically disagree with them being beatable.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-16, 04:45 AM
The dragon doesn't need to be completely in it. Only its opponent does. Then the dragon can either full melee him or grab him and chew for awhile.

obnoxious
sig

Not to mention a Gargantuan dragon can cast a Widened Antimagic Field, which has a 20' radius (10 feet on all sides). Welcome to the grapple, baby. Add in burrowing, and you can get some deadly surprises.


Seriously, people need to stop thinking of dragons as being in any way related to what the books present.

An elan, upon entering the lair of a great wyrm, would be greeted by the words:

'You're late, Faedal Soulspark. It is fated that we will fight, and that I will triumph. Shall we get on with it, or is there some idle threat you'd like to utter first? I can wait that long.'

There is a reason for this: The dragon starts out being far more powerful than the elan, and has every opportunity to grow in power faster than the elan. No matter the age of the elan, the dragon has every reason to expect to totally obliterate him.

Except for that, I heartily hate dragon - due to overuse, predictability, shabby fluff (that I could do better but don't because of the other two reasons), and the fact that I basically disagree with them being beatable.
It's not that likely, actually, given antidivination powers are easier to use than divination. However, I agree that dragons are smarter than many give them credit for, and extensive communication networks can emphasize this.

Zen Master
2010-04-16, 04:49 AM
It's not that likely, actually, given antidivination powers are easier to use than divination. However, I agree that dragons are smarter than many give them credit for, and extensive communication networks can emphasize this.

Yea, I know. I'm more interested in storytelling than rules mongering. But truly, the meeting of two such epic powers should be something the very wise could read in the stars.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-16, 04:55 AM
Yea, I know. I'm more interested in storytelling than rules mongering. But truly, the meeting of two such epic powers should be something the very wise could read in the stars.

If the stars regularly use Contact other Plane to adjust their position, perhaps. But most specifics would be available only to the respective deities involved. And even then, the dragon's deity may not know much about the psion, and vice versa. I like the information shut out. It adds so much to dramatic tension, if players know only what they strove to learn, and everything else is in the dark.

Fizban
2010-04-16, 05:03 AM
You're assuming the dragon doesn't have class levels himself. A Great Wyrm Red Dragon Wizard 10/Archmage 5/Loremaster 5 has a lot of good reasons to be arrogant even alongside a 5000-year old Elan.

I don't think dragon arrogance comes from being ancient as much as from being an enduring, primordial race. In many cosmologies, they had an inherent grasp of things arcane long before any other race did, and their understanding has outlived empires founded on epic magic.

This is one of those things that just isn't very supported in the rules. The only way the dragon is going to have a particularly good grasp of the arcane is if it actually is packing class levels. Their innate spellcasting is so far behind their CR that even a "boss" dragon several levels higher than the party will barely match the party's casters (and if you look at it by hit dice, they top out at 1/2 their HD in CL, even worse). Since they naturally advance by racial hit dice instead of character levels, the average dragon isn't any better at magic than an adventurer.

The only thing I can find to support this idea requires looking at age categories, except if anything it means the dragon just loses harder. The fastest casting of the dragons gain their first caster level at young age, which starts at 16, so this means that they initially master sorcery a teeny bit faster than a human, or about the same time as a half-orc would (shorter age means faster learner). After that it all goes down hill. A dragon doesn't reach CL 5 until age 50, CL 7 until age 100, and CL 9 until age 200. The half-orc is an old man by the time the dragon reaches CL 5, and by the time the dragon reaches CL7 both the half-orc and human are probably dead and buried, having lived and gained an entire life's worth of levels before dying (and just because they could get killed early doesn't mean the dragon couldn't: in fact a humanoid that stays out of trouble probably has a much better chance of reaching max age than a dragon that automatically attracts dragon-hunters and whatnot).

So a human practicing sorcery is going to learn it so much faster that the dragon doesn't even stand a chance of catching up. Even reducing the humanoid from sorcerer to adept-grade progression to fit NPCs only evens it up a little bit. The dragon doesn't get 2nd level spells until it passes age 100, while an adept gets 2nd level spells at 4th level, a level anyone who survives to their max age should have easily. And this is pitting the human against the fastest spellcasting dragons, the metallic and Reds only. Black and White dragons don't get spells at all until the human is an old man or dead.

But wait, there's more! Dragons cast as sorcerers. This means they have a limited spells known list, that once chosen only changes by a few spells (at most 9). Even if they take the most esoteric or research oriented of spells, they're still never going to compare to a wizard, who can learn all of them. I don't see how they could be considered masters of the arcane in any way when by the time they've learned 2 1st level spells, a human wizard has learned 4 or more, will continue learning more, and can research more on the side if he's got the money.

Now, I'm not arguing against the idea of dragons as an ancient race that was the first to practice magic. And heck, if they really want to they can keep being arrogant about them all being sorcerers when other races have to learn how, and of course they're still crazy smart physical powerhouses with supersenses and fire breath. But the image of them as arcanists that know secrets beyond mortal comprehension? Please. In the 1,000 years it took you to learn 9th level spells, dozens of generations of humans have learned them, and each of them knew more than you do. All you've got is a massive spellcraft modifier, and that's only because of the way hit dice work. Doesn't do you much good when any spells you research have to come out of your sorcerer budget and can't be changed. You might have witnessed some serious stuff way back then, but that doesn't make you any better at magic.

Emmerask
2010-04-16, 05:37 AM
One of the primary things that makes dragons in general look down on the "lesser beings" is the fact that they have shorter life spans.


Nope, in most settings its because they where among the first creatures in existence (in the realm of course), everything that came thereafter where just intruders to their lands.
An Elan even if 5000years or so old is still of human decent and therefore compared to the dragon race a mere footnote in history (and even more so if viewed as their own race). Maybe in another 100.000 years if the human race still exists ,then they can be considered younglings to this realm instead of babies.

In short it has little to do with actual life expectancy of an individual of that race but with the history of the race esp how long it is in existence.




Well what happens when the great wyrm blue dragon meets the high level 5000 year old elan psion? Assuming the two don't just try to kill each other.
The psion is just as powerful if not more powerful than the dragon and is nearly double his maximum age with no signs of slowing down.

"Oh look the baby race is dabbling with immortality, that is quite cute, not very wise but well... the human race is still an infant" :smallwink:

Gamgee
2010-04-16, 06:09 AM
Doesn't it depend no the rules the GM uses? If anti magic fields aren't anti Psychic fields or something like that then the Psion's powers are not stopped.

Or am I just tired and remembering poorly?

Starbuck_II
2010-04-16, 06:31 AM
Doesn't it depend no the rules the GM uses? If anti magic fields aren't anti Psychic fields or something like that then the Psion's powers are not stopped.

Or am I just tired and remembering poorly?

No one who uses Psionics-different rules cares about balance.
Since we don't have a DM, we assume the default psionic=same. Level playing field.



A dragon's breath weapon, while powerful, is rarely used more than twice in a typical D&D combat unless the dragon is making strafing runs. A dragon's power is usually focused in its melee attacks. Pounce is fairly easy to acquire as a dragon, so a dragon who managed to cast an antimagic field as a swift action and then lunge into it would be at a significant advantage.

obnoxious
sig

What non-magical method does a Dragon acquire pounce? Spells are magic as are magic items.
Surprised you thought DR/magic wasn't magical.
Barbarian? Which lowers his casting.

Don't forget to cast as swift you'll have to jump through hoops (Dragons= spontanous caster).

Kish
2010-04-16, 06:39 AM
All you've got is a massive spellcraft modifier, and that's only because of the way hit dice work. Doesn't do you much good when any spells you research have to come out of your sorcerer budget and can't be changed.
Two words: Epic spells.

If the DM uses variant rules that changes literally everything, depending on what the variant rules are. By default an anti-magic field blocks psionics.

Optimystik
2010-04-16, 06:40 AM
From a fluff standpoint, Elans are very unobtrusive. It would be very, very rare for a dragon to encounter one, and while he might recognize it as not being human he might not know exactly what it is.

Elans work to blend in with humanity (The Cha penalty specifically relates to odd behavior btw, not looks.) They would have no reason to put themselves in the spotlight by approaching a dragon.

But a primary difference between dragons and Elans is not related to lifespan, but attitude. Dragons are predators, and they know it. They are at the top of every natural food chain. A dragon is much more likely to eat an Elan than vice-versa. That, if nothing else, will color their interactions to a large degree.


The dragon doesn't need to be completely in it. Only its opponent does. Then the dragon can either full melee him or grab him and chew for awhile.

obnoxious
sig

There's no reason for the Elan to be in an AMF and shut himself down. And if the dragon turns one on, the Elan can still rely on action abuse, PP recovery and hails (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hailofCrystals.htm)/swarms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/swarmofCrystals.htm) of crystal to lacerate/bludgeon the gently caress out of the dragon while keeping him at a decent distance, pretty much indefinitely. And even if the Elan loses, his Psicrystal will simply return to the time stream (having been displaced that morning), hit the reset button and give him a second chance, with the full knowledge of the battle that already took place and the capabilities of his foe. Or his Astral Seed will revive him. Psions also get Mind Blank earlier than wizards do, and can heal themselves much more easily.

If Psionics Are Different, things just get ridiculous quite rapidly, as very few of the dragon's countermeasures will work, and the Elan can now use Constructs, mental assault, or just turn into a dragon himself and level the playing field. Or if the battle goes south, run away and hide by turning into a rock.

Tier 2 vs. CR-appropriate dragon = no contest, really.

Zen Master
2010-04-16, 06:43 AM
If the stars regularly use Contact other Plane to adjust their position, perhaps. But most specifics would be available only to the respective deities involved. And even then, the dragon's deity may not know much about the psion, and vice versa. I like the information shut out. It adds so much to dramatic tension, if players know only what they strove to learn, and everything else is in the dark.

Well this is true. In the mental movie I'm watching, neither the dragon nor the elan is a player. And when all the cards are in the hands of the DM, it is possible for things to be written in the stars.

peacenlove
2010-04-16, 06:53 AM
What non-magical method does a Dragon acquire pounce? Spells are magic as are magic items.
Surprised you thought DR/magic wasn't magical.
Barbarian? Which lowers his casting.


Dragons with over 20 HD can get pounce easily (http://dndsrd.net/epicFeats.html#dire-charge).
Also the travel devotion feat would get them extra move actions, however i do not remember if devotion feats are extraordinary or supernatural abilities.

Optimystik
2010-04-16, 07:02 AM
Dragons with over 20 HD can get pounce easily (http://dndsrd.net/epicFeats.html#dire-charge).
Also the travel devotion feat would get them extra move actions, however i do not remember if devotion feats are extraordinary or supernatural abilities.

Neither - they are SLAs unless otherwise noted, including Travel.

Jack_Simth
2010-04-16, 07:10 AM
The dragon doesn't need to be completely in it. Only its opponent does. Then the dragon can either full melee him or grab him and chew for awhile.

obnoxious
sig

Yes, but if you've got a ten-foot radius spell, and a 30-foot space dragon, and the opponent has some way of preventing the initial grapple (Freedom of Movement, maybe - there's a Psionic power for it), then all the AMF does is prevent the psion's abilities from working directly on the dragon, and shutting down the dragon's own spells.

A Widened Antimagic Field is a ninth level spell, by default, which may be hard to come by - not every Great Wyrm gets 9th level spells.

Optimystik
2010-04-16, 07:14 AM
Yes, but if you've got a ten-foot radius spell, and a 30-foot space dragon, and the opponent has some way of preventing the initial grapple (Freedom of Movement, maybe - there's a Psionic power for it), then all the AMF does is prevent the psion's abilities from working directly on the dragon, and shutting down the dragon's own spells.

A Widened Antimagic Field is a ninth level spell, by default, which may be hard to come by - not every Great Wyrm gets 9th level spells.

And that's not even counting the myriad ways a Psion has to say "can't touch this" - including Contingency, Schism, Anticipatory Strike, Synchronicity, Forced Dream...

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-16, 07:23 AM
There's no reason for the Elan to be in an AMF and shut himself down. And if the dragon turns one on, the Elan can still rely on action abuse, PP recovery and hails (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hailofCrystals.htm)/swarms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/swarmofCrystals.htm) of crystal to lacerate/bludgeon the gently caress out of the dragon while keeping him at a decent distance, pretty much indefinitely. And even if the Elan loses, his Psicrystal will simply return to the time stream (having been displaced that morning), hit the reset button and give him a second chance, with the full knowledge of the battle that already took place and the capabilities of his foe. Or his Astral Seed will revive him. Psions also get Mind Blank earlier than wizards do, and can heal themselves much more easily.

He won't have full knowledge. Only the jumper gets that. He'd have exactly what information was sent to the psicrystal when it returned, which was: "No contact with Psion, Activate Save game"
at which point, the DM would say
"Activate pitching arm, chuck book at player"

Optimystik
2010-04-16, 07:27 AM
He won't have full knowledge. Only the jumper gets that. He'd have exactly what information was sent to the psicrystal when it returned, which was: "No contact with Psion, Activate Save game"
at which point, the DM would say
"Activate pitching arm, chuck book at player"

I thought we were discussing an in-universe clash between a hypothetically high-powered Elan Psion and a hypothetical dragon :smalltongue:

At a game table, obviously the DM's plot would determine the victor.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-16, 07:47 AM
I thought we were discussing an in-universe clash between a hypothetically high-powered Elan Psion and a hypothetical dragon :smalltongue:

At a game table, obviously the DM's plot would determine the victor.

Well, in any game where "save game psions" are used, I can only surmise that "chaingate simulacrum dragons" would be used. Gentleman's agreements are made to be broken, in such a game.

If we're speaking hypotheticals, and all.

Optimystik
2010-04-16, 07:51 AM
Well, in any game where "save game psions" are used, I can only surmise that "chaingate simulacrum dragons" would be used. Gentleman's agreements are made to be broken, in such a game.

If we're speaking hypotheticals, and all.

A Psion can get Forced Dream long before a dragon can get SimulaGate, unless you're tossing out the "appropriate CR" restriction.

But regardless, my point was: AMF is not the great equalizer that will allow dragons to snack on psions with impunity.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-16, 07:54 AM
A Psion can get Forced Dream long before a dragon can get SimulaGate, unless you're tossing out the "appropriate CR" restriction.

But regardless, my point was: AMF is not the great equalizer that will allow dragons to snack on psions with impunity.

Meh, the dragon only needs simulacrum, really, and a horde to start the combo. A single Candle of Invocation will get things started.

As for that, AMF can be. If used properly. It's an amazing spell, when used tactically.

Cogidubnus
2010-04-16, 08:06 AM
I don't know a huge amount about psions, but if we're assuming the antimagic field turns psionics off, and the dragon has character levels allowing it to use widened antimagic field, I wouldn't give the psion much chance.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html
Not that dissimilar? :smallbiggrin:

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-16, 08:15 AM
I don't know a huge amount about psions, but if we're assuming the antimagic field turns psionics off, and the dragon has character levels allowing it to use widened antimagic field, I wouldn't give the psion much chance.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html
Not that dissimilar? :smallbiggrin:

Wait, why would swarm of crystals work? Orbs work because they're instantaneous duration conjuration. What lets the crystal spells work in AMF?

Optimystik
2010-04-16, 08:22 AM
I don't know a huge amount about psions, but if we're assuming the antimagic field turns psionics off, and the dragon has character levels allowing it to use widened antimagic field, I wouldn't give the psion much chance.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html
Not that dissimilar? :smallbiggrin:

Psions can Dimension Door/Teleport too.


Wait, why would swarm of crystals work? Orbs work because they're instantaneous duration conjuration. What lets the crystal spells work in AMF?

This line: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm)


For the purpose of psionics-magic transparency, metacreativity powers are equivalent to powers of the conjuration school.

Crystal Shard, Hail, Swarm and others are Instantaneous, therefore they are effectively Instantaneous Conjurations.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-16, 08:29 AM
Psions can Dimension Door/Teleport too.



This line: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm)



Crystal Shard, Hail, Swarm and others are Instantaneous, therefore they are effectively Instantaneous Conjurations.

Fair enough. Still, they're pretty short range. I daresay within the double move of a dragon.

Salt_Crow
2010-04-16, 08:44 AM
I'd say a given dragon could respect the specific elan, not because of its long-livedness but more likely due to its sheer power. Elan race as a whole though, are still too squishy for the general draconic population to earn their respect by aging.

After all, every true dragons become powerful by the virtue of aging, while elans still require vigourous training as other common races do.

Optimystik
2010-04-16, 08:54 AM
There's also the fact that the average Elan, being as humanocentric as they are, would be unlikely to venerate a dragon to the extent that they are typically accustomed. That combined with the Cha penalty would likely make relations strained at best.

I could probably see mutual respect or even an alliance between an Elan and a Psionic (Gem) Dragon, though. After all, they're both at risk from the Flayer Sovereignty.

I wonder if Elans will be in 4e?

Sydonai
2010-04-16, 10:35 AM
Now that we mentioned Gem Dragons, how would a Brainstealer Dragon react to an Elan? My opinion, the same way we react to freeze-dried icecream.

shadow_archmagi
2010-04-16, 03:32 PM
Out of curiosity:

Dragons know and cast spells as a sorcerer.

Does that mean that every huge wrym carries a tiny spell component pouch that it has to fiddle with in order to cast fireball?

Because I have this picture of this dragon the size of a castle trying to pick up a pouch with its claws and failing miserably.

Sydonai
2010-04-16, 03:46 PM
They get Eschew Materials as a free feat......I think.

Optimystik
2010-04-16, 03:50 PM
Now that we mentioned Gem Dragons, how would a Brainstealer Dragon react to an Elan? My opinion, the same way we react to freeze-dried icecream.

Those are in Dragon Magazine, aren't they? I'd assume they see him the same way a giant Illithid would, but I don't know enough about them.


Out of curiosity:

Dragons know and cast spells as a sorcerer.

Does that mean that every huge wrym carries a tiny spell component pouch that it has to fiddle with in order to cast fireball?

Because I have this picture of this dragon the size of a castle trying to pick up a pouch with its claws and failing miserably.

I believe Draconomicon mentions that they take Eschew Materials to avoid dealing with that. But they do have to use components, if that's what you're asking. In fact, there are feats for them in Draconomicon to make using components easier, such as Embed Focus, which lets them jam a costly focus for their spells into their scales so it's always on their person. (The focus then counts as part of their treasure.) So a dragon with a Contingency would have a dragon figurine wedged somewhere on its body.

shadow_archmagi
2010-04-16, 04:51 PM
Pity the dragon who forgets to take the feat, then

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-16, 05:12 PM
Pity the dragon who forgets to take the feat, then

I was genuinely wondering what to take as my Level 1 Feat for my Red dragon.

Thanks y'all :smallbiggrin:

Optimystik
2010-04-16, 07:15 PM
I was genuinely wondering what to take as my Level 1 Feat for my Red dragon.

Thanks y'all :smallbiggrin:

If your DM handwaves components for dragon spellcasters, don't even mention the feat and call his attention to it. :smalltongue:

Salt_Crow
2010-04-16, 07:19 PM
They get Eschew Materials as a free feat......I think.

Couatls do, but not dragons. Primarily because they don't have hands to speak of XD

Lord Vukodlak
2010-04-16, 10:59 PM
How are they broken?
lol

They aren't

Fizban
2010-04-16, 11:27 PM
Two words: Epic spells.

Two words: Not Epic? Only a full grown great-wyrm Red or Metallic dragon has the 9th level spells required to take the feat. Any dragon of less than that age won't be researching any more spells than they can learn as a sorcerer. And if you're taking great-wyrm Red dragons as the average, I think I'm fully entitled to take level 21 wizards for mine.