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junglesteve
2010-04-17, 02:42 AM
Alright, rolled terrible terrible stats. str 12, dex 10, 12 con, 9 wis, 10 int, 13 cha (DM wont let me re-roll, swears up and down that I have a +2 and am denied mulligan)

I figure screw it, ill just play a goblin, max hide and move silently and destroy some things with sneak attack / crossbows.

I am only allowed core (DMG1, players handbook, and MAYBE some early completes like warrior)

Gan The Grey
2010-04-17, 02:53 AM
Wow, your DM sucks. That's the equivalent of a 20 point buy, something I would NEVER force my players to adhere to. I at least allow them a 25 point buy, but I generally give them 28. 20 point buy is worse than the elite array, a generic arrangement of stats used for NPC's taking PC levels.

If it were me, I'd argue til I was blue in the face to have him at least let you use the point buy system. You're supposed to be playing a hero, for the love of Mike.

Otodetu
2010-04-17, 05:06 AM
Ask if you can use the elite array...

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-17, 05:34 AM
Be a paladin.

Die in session 1.

Reroll.

Cicciograna
2010-04-17, 05:41 AM
Tell your DM to read more carefully the Player's Handbook, page 8:

Your scores are considered too low if the sum of your modifiers (before adjustment because of race) is 0 or lower, or if your highest score is 13 or lower.
You qualify.

Gaiyamato
2010-04-17, 06:08 AM
Yeah, your DM needs to first read the Ability Scores table which clearly shows your best mod is +1 and then needs to read the DMG. Actually if he has EVER played the game before he should be aware of just how ****ty those scores are.

Heck at the very least your DM should allow to to re-order the Ability each score is assigned too so you could use a racial adjustment to get a 15 or something.

Unless the rest of the part is around that level and it is a very low power level game I'd really be pressing the issue a little more. If the DM is going to be stupid then just die fast and re-make.

Amphetryon
2010-04-17, 06:16 AM
Stats are below par for standard 3.X, as has been stated. Crossbow is a suboptimal choice for a sneak attack-focused build, especially in Core.

That said, if you're set on trying it, I'll try to help.

Without flaws, Point Blank Shot is your de facto choice at 1st level for a ranged rogue. If you can get flaws - they're in the SRD so you can at least argue for them - Rapid Reload and Rapid Shot improve your survivability by a good bit. If not, take Fighter at 1st level so you can at least get Rapid Shot immediately along with a few HP. This is primarily useful only if you're starting at 1st level. If not, the extra skill points can be arguably important enough to take Fighter at 2nd and get Rapid Shot there.

If you can argue SRD = Core, pick up Wild Talent and Psionic Shot after you've got Rapid Reload/Rapid Shot. Precise Shot would be nice, but fairly difficult to squeeze in unless you cannot use psionic feats or take a second Fighter level. That 2nd Fighter level is a fine idea in Core for that very reason.

Dump all your skills into mobility choices, including the Hide/Move Silently twins. Play as a cowardly mobility expert who refuses to trapcheck for fear of his own life.

Escheton
2010-04-17, 07:02 AM
pump dex, warlock
warlocks dont really need stats
and get to shoot stuff from far away
add combustion and stuff to the blast later and just have fun that way
add a swordsage lvl in there somewhere, just because ToB has great dipclasses...

Amphetryon
2010-04-17, 07:04 AM
pump dex, warlock
warlocks dont really need stats
and get to shoot stuff from far away
add combustion and stuff to the blast later and just have fun that way
add a swordsage lvl in there somewhere, just because ToB has great dipclasses...

'Core only' means no warlock or swordsage (or ToB) regardless of how 'core' is interpretted. :smallwink:

Escheton
2010-04-17, 07:23 AM
right, sorry
missed that
wow, then your dm is a total douche.
without that I would just suicide scout him, ow wait...core
barb rage blarg then, ghostwise halfling for the barbfluff, ow wait...core
halfling bardbarian!

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-17, 07:34 AM
Be a druid.

Make a bold statement. Survive via your AC that's stronger than you are.

Escheton
2010-04-17, 07:44 AM
lol, druid of Mielikki in a fullplate

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-17, 08:50 AM
Well first i've played a game pritty succesfully with less stats. 1 9 stat 1 11 stat and the rest 10s. actualy a fun game. I would not play a rogue. or a SA'er
If you want to destroy things play a sorcerer.

I would sugest something like this:
+dex race

1 Sorcerer
2 rogue
3 rogue
4 sorcerer
5 rogue
The rest sorcerer until you can get into arcane trickster
For your first level spells grab magic missle and eaither mage armour, summon monster. Make sure your 0 level spell is acid splash or ray of frost.
Grab point blank shot.

Summon monster is probebly better as they can "tank" though they last for 1 round. acid splash and ray of frost will be your bread and butter once you get your levels of rogue.

Soranar
2010-04-17, 10:43 AM
EDIT, I missed the core only part

str 12, dex 10, 12 con, 9 wis, 10 int, 13 cha

with core only you don't have a +2 , 13 is only +1

at least having the options to pick where your STATS go is standard, but if for some reason you can't I'll try to work with what you have

templates are out since you play core only so no help there
races, not much help there (goblins are = to halfling really, the better ones have level adjustment which wouldn't help anyway)

Age : you can trade -1 to STR, DEX and CON for +1 to mental stats
or -3 for +2 or -6 for +3

Aasimar is not as useful as simply playing an old human , so I don't recommend it
to be a full casting class (only real option you have, you can still use a crossbow as they are simple weapons)

still, you can possibly get by with a 15

go for Wizard or Druid

if Wizard, INT, CON,DEX
if Druid , WIS, CON, maybe some INT

wizard is easier since some races boost DEX or INT (even in core)
a gnome druid is quite decent (you can ride your animal companion anywhere since it's medium and the boost to CON helps)

small races help you better (+1 to hit, str doen't affect crossbows, +1 to AC and some skill bonuses)

Tiki Snakes
2010-04-17, 10:49 AM
Having read some of the above suggestions and the OP himself, What about goblin druid? They get a decent bonus to stealthy stuff and to ride, iirc, and the Animal Companion can pick up a lot of the inevitable slack? It's like playing an Animal Fighter, with a free hilarious sneaky goblin to ride it around and do some of the talky bits.
:smallsmile:

Then just check for some 'no stats Druid build' threads and cheese out as much as possible till you approach the value of a real character. :smallbiggrin:

Zach J.
2010-04-17, 10:50 AM
Are you allowed to switch the order of your stats around?

Edit: If not then I second going for Rogue/Sorcerer to Arcane Trickster. Maybe something like...

Rog 1: Point Blank Shot
Rog 3: Precise Shot
Rog 3/Sor 3: Spell Focus (Illusion)
Rog 3/Sor 6: Greater Spell Focus (Illusion)

You could just be a sneaky type your first few levels mainly keeping to the shadows and shooting if the oppurtunity came up. Suddenly your character discovers he has sorcerous abilities. You could focus on debuffs like Ray of Enfeeblement and Illusions in order to keep your stealthiness.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-04-17, 11:02 AM
I second, third or fourth the suggestion for druid, advance your age to at least old for metal stats boosts.

And until you get yourwildshape rely on your animal companion.

FlamingKobold
2010-04-17, 11:30 AM
Just as a warning: If you can't rearrange your stats, having 9 wis as a druid sucks. So does 13, but it's the best you can do.

But yeah, your DM is functionally saying "Your character is good enough according to this section that I didn't actually read."

Swiftest
2010-04-17, 11:44 AM
I recommend being an Aasimar druid and advancing yourself by a few age categories (probably 3) to make it so you have half-decent mental stats. See the rules on aging in the dmg. You should be able to make that 13 an 18 and put it in wisdom, which won't make you the worst druid ever. Then when you wildshape you replace your insanely bad physical stats with half-decent ones from the animals you turn into. I don't think the aging penalties carry over to wildshape forms, which is what makes this trick so effective, but I might be mistaken and I'm sure others will chime in on this if so. Anyhow, this would allow you to at least easily reach 9th level spellcasting easily with decent AC and some decent physical/flying abilities, which is probably as powerful as you can get with those stats.

Then use the rules in the SRD for buying off your level adjustment and you should catch up with the party in xp (or close enough as makes no real difference) by about level 8-9.

Eldariel
2010-04-17, 11:53 AM
I recommend being an Aasimar druid and advancing yourself by a few age categories (probably 3) to make it so you have half-decent mental stats. See the rules on aging in the dmg. You should be able to make that 13 an 18 and put it in wisdom, which won't make you the worst druid ever. Then when you wildshape you replace your insanely bad physical stats with half-decent ones from the animals you turn into. I don't think the aging penalties carry over to wildshape forms, which is what makes this trick so effective, but I might be mistaken and I'm sure others will chime in on this if so. Anyhow, this would allow you to at least easily reach 9th level spellcasting easily with decent AC and some decent physical/flying abilities, which is probably as powerful as you can get with those stats.

Then use the rules in the SRD for buying off your level adjustment and you should catch up with the party in xp (or close enough as makes no real difference) by about level 8-9.

The biggest issue is that Wildshape Druid still derives the HP off Con. So...eh. Middle-Aged Human Druid might be alright. SoDs won't be amazing with 14 in the casting stat, but Entangle is still good enough and with all level-ups in Wis, you'll be alright. You have to make do with 11 Con, but c'est la vie. Actually, Dwarf or Gnome Druid may be a fine idea for that very reason; 13 Con, 14 Wis and dumps as dumps.

Darastin
2010-04-17, 11:55 AM
Be a paladin.

Die in session 1.

Reroll.
You don't have to be a paladin for this.

Just don't play it safe. Don't care for your character's safety; take risks (as long as it doesn't endanger your fellows). Either you die early and get to roll a new character, or the DM pulls punches and your character is successful. In both cases, you win.

I'd rather invoke Rule #3, though.


Oh, one thing I forgot to ask:
How were these stats rolled? Standard PHB system? What kind of stats did the other players roll? If everyone has below-average stats like these, it won't be as much of a problem. Unless you plan playing a full caster; these need a 15 in their primary stat if they don't want to depend on a crutch (stat-increasing item, in this case - unlikely to be available if stats are already intentionally below average).

Just my two Euro-cents;
Darastin

Just_Ice
2010-04-17, 12:02 PM
Alright, rolled terrible terrible stats. str 12, dex 10, 12 con, 9 wis, 10 int, 13 cha (DM wont let me re-roll, swears up and down that I have a +2 and am denied mulligan)

I figure screw it, ill just play a goblin, max hide and move silently and destroy some things with sneak attack / crossbows.

I am only allowed core (DMG1, players handbook, and MAYBE some early completes like warrior)

That's pretty lousy and the rules state that you can get a re-roll if your highest is under 14.

I've seen worse (-1 after racial modifiers) but that one also had like 20 str or something so when she wasn't going insane and trying to kill the party she was pretty helpful.

If you can't change 'em still, play a bow ranger or Dragon Shaman or trapmaster rogue or bard or something that doesn't really need stats. Alternatively, you can play a sorc for four levels (bump up charisma at lvl 4), since I doubt your campaign will make it very far with a DM like that.

Good luck.

Mark Hall
2010-04-17, 12:23 PM
A couple options:

1) If you're going goblin rogue with a crossbow, I'd also suggest throwing in some sorcerer levels... True Strike makes you an awesome sniper-type, and while you won't have much in terms of spells (in fact, you probably want no more than 3 levels of sorcerer in this option), being able to throw a few useful ones is great. As mentioned, go with Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, and the like. Play the person who has no real survivability in numeric terms... but play him to live and win because goddamnit you're not gonna go out easy. Throw ranks into survival-type skills... climb and hide and move silently and tumbling and jump and all the skills that let you notice danger and skedaddle away from it. Your first reaction to a combat situation should be to climb a tree, so you're out of range of other people's weapons and have some cover (you've got true strike... you don't need to worry about cover).

2) The other option is to play to die. Play a gnome monk, and reap the benefits thereof. You have a Con bonus, and that's about it. Endeavour to fall through rampant chaotic behavior. Steal things in full view of others, using your one rank of cross-class pick pockets. Wear armor, pointing out that leather armor doesn't inhibit you, and you don't have a wisdom bonus to lose. Set things on fire.

Personally, I find the first option more entertaining. Try to keep this guy alive as long as possible.

Zach J.
2010-04-17, 12:26 PM
I think Mark Hall's got the right idea with his first suggestion. Think how memorable this guy will be if he manages to survive.

Edit: Expeditious Retreat might be another good first level spell for this character. It will help make up for a small character's penalty to Jump and, as the name suggests, it will make it much easier for you to escape if there's something coming to kill ya. ;)

Lin Bayaseda
2010-04-17, 12:38 PM
Just play a Wolf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#theDruidsAnimalCompanion). The wolf is pretty strong for a level 1 character, and will advance even further with levels. As a side bonus, along with the wolf, there will be a small insignificant human companion tagging along. Yes, he can't cast spells, but hey, we can't all be winners. Just be thankful your human companion has opposable thumbs and is thus capable of operating a crossbow.

Pluto
2010-04-17, 03:08 PM
If you can swap Intelligence and Charisma, Rogue 1/Ranger 2/Rogue 2/Assassin 10 would be a perfectly playable character at all levels until high-level rocket tag becomes the rule.

Focus on stealth-based skills, stay out of the center of combat, invest in a bit of UMD and you should be fine.

I've played worse stats many times without feeling useless/superfluous.

Just don't treat your character like cannon fodder or a fill-in. That's about the best way of spoiling your own fun and your buddies' RP.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-04-17, 06:36 PM
I'm with the druid crowd. Your animal companion can carry you (sort of) till you hit wildshape. Once you get wildshape... Well, at least you can outfight the fighters (maybe).

Ravens_Wing
2010-04-18, 01:28 PM
Tell your DM to read more carefully the Player's Handbook, page 8:

You qualify.

I agree with this. If your DM is insisting that you have to play this because of the rules then tell him to read the bleeding rules. it shouldn’t matter that your total bonus is a +2 those stats are crap. If he still wont budge I would go with the Play the brave idiot option.

If you think the other players would under stand your intent let them know what you are going to do so when you come across something nasty you can hold off the baddies while your buddies escape. if you die then you reroll if you live your a hero.

Harperfan7
2010-04-18, 02:44 PM
Play a rogue/illusionist or transmuter. Focus on dex and int, hide/move silently, and try for arcane trickster. Get a cat familiar.

You'll be okay and you'll be happy if this character ends up living.

Brendan
2010-04-18, 02:52 PM
be a suicidal dwarf sorceror. in the first battle that matters, do a running tackle against the enemy, detonating all of your alchemist's fire at once and any and all direct damage spells, shouting "tell my wife I love 'er!!!" Explode for large amounts of damage.

Beorn080
2010-04-18, 03:08 PM
Spoony bard. I mean, after all, bards can't do anything anyway normally, you won't be much worse off with those stats.

Joking of course. About the bards not doing anything.