GWA mk III Fight 25

[Moonlitdreams]

Mor'Korr vs. Sote'


A towering figure in a dark robe enters the room where you have been milling around sizing up the competition. His face is completely obscured by his hood. He raises both hands to get your attention and speaks in a deep voice.
Mor'Korr, Sote'. You have been chosen to fight. Prepare yourselves! With that he brings his hands down and the two of you find yourself transported to the arena (http://excessivefreetime.org/arena/arena4.html)

OOC:
You've got time for one swift action and one standard action before you get transported in case you need to adopt a stance or activate an item.

On the map, green is open terrain, yellow is difficult terrain, red/brown is the cliffs (10ft, Climb DC20, blocks LoS). Arena has a 60 foot ceiling.

Opening post should have an initiative roll, anything you said after he called your name and what, if anything you did with the 'surprise round' before being transported. After that, start fighting in initiative order.

Starting Positions:
Mor'KorrHorizontal axis [roll0]
Vertical axis [roll1]
Sote'Horizontal axis [roll2]
Vertical axis [roll3]

[Moonlitdreams]

Starting Positions:
Mor'KorrHorizontal axis [roll0]
Vertical axis [roll1]
Sote'Horizontal axis [roll2]
Vertical axis [roll3]

[Moonlitdreams]

Sote' is a short and slender creature with short-cropped blue-black fur that tapers to obsidian black around his fox-like face and huge, twitching ears. His black beady eyes stare out and flicker around quickly, as if he can never examine his surroundings quickly enough to console himself. A pair of wrinkly black wings are jointed to his wrists and sweep down to his thighs. He is accompanied by an oversized lion with spots around its muzzle. He speaks an arcane word and disappears from your view just before we arrive at the arena.

Prebattle actions:

Standard: Activate Ring of Invisibility.
Swift: Wildshape into a Delver.


Initiative: [roll0]

[sleepy]

Alrighty. I take it spoilered text is private? Being a Large creature, do I choose which corner of my space the square I appear in will be? I assume I can't use the "surprise round" standard action to ready an action? Also, how does Knowledge Devotion get handled?


A hulking, earthy-skinned, and tremendously oversized Goliath stands slowly... at least, at initial impression. Comprehension quickly sketches in the form with stranger and stranger details... heavy, leathery wings snap to full extension with a rippling crack, and two thick, curling horns curl out from his head, arcing around and in again nearly to meet the smaller, straighter pair erupting from his brow. A haze of coarse, ruddy-coloured fur almost conceals his malformed skin, which appears thick and rough, almost bark-like. The muscle-bound creature tenses and rolls his shoulders as he sets himself in preparation, and his broad nostrils flare.


swift action: adopt stance of alacrity
free action: activate boots of speed

HP: 240 AC: 47/23 Saves: +20/+8/+11

boots: 10/10

initiative: [roll0]

[Moonlitdreams]

Alrighty. I take it spoilered text is private? Being a Large creature, do I choose which corner of my space the square I appear in will be? I assume I can't use the "surprise round" standard action to ready an action? Also, how does Knowledge Devotion get handled?

Yes, spoilered text is private.

As for the Large creature thing, I assume so.

Readying an action in the surprise round seems valid to me.

Not sure about the Knowledge Devotion.



And, it looks like I win init. What are your current vision/sense modes? To determine if we have Line of Sight.

[Eldariel]

I take it spoilered text is private?

Yes.


Being a Large creature, do I choose which corner of my space the square I appear in will be?

Yes.


I assume I can't use the "surprise round" standard action to ready an action?

There's a precedent that it's allowed. I'm going to say "feel free" (it's a fair trade; you give up a huge buff-round action for "going first if you lost the initiative and guessed circumstances right") but remember the consequences of readied action: If you take your readied action, your new initiative count changes to the point when you took it, and if you haven't yet acted on that round, you won't get to act until next round.

So assuming your readied action triggers immediately upon the fight, you'll get your standard action, but you'll miss out on your first turn, so you effectively trade the buff round and your first round of combat for a standard action in the beginning of the fight.


Also, how does Knowledge Devotion get handled?

Figure out your opponent's creature type by asking him, his character sheet or whatever and roll it in the beginning of fight. Easiest that way. Feel free to roll it in secret if you so desire.

[sleepy]

blindsense 30', darkvision 60', and scent. I think there might be a LLV in there somewhere too, let me know if it's dark in here.

For knowledge devotion: I'll just roll the checks that I have, let me know which apply to you and your pet, and if they change.
local [roll0]
nature [roll1]
the planes [roll2]

ack, blindSENSE. My bad there.

[Moonlitdreams]

I am pretty certain that you do not detect Sote' right now, then.

His pet is a dire lion. With that natural 20, you pretty much know everything an official statblock would tell you about them. The other checks are not applicable to Sote', as far as I know.

[sleepy]

local = humanoid
nature = animal, fey, plant monstrous humanoid, giant, plant, vermin
the planes = outsider, elemental

[Eldariel]

Anthropomorphic Animals are Monstrous Humanoids, as is Dire Lion so Knowledge: Nature is the skill to use for bonus on both. As such, you'll end up with +2 Attack & Damage against both.

@Moonlit: There are two other arenas (the arena link you're using is "arena4"; arena3 and arena1 are both fine too; arena2 is small though I suppose it's alright as well), so you may want to consider switching 'em around. In fact, it's technically supposed to be random which arena you take, but that's a small matter.


I'll handle Line of Sight for you, give me a moment. I'll need your decision on your starting square first, sleepy (spoilered).

[Moonlitdreams]

Turn actions:

Move: Burrow to L9-M10, 15 feet underground.


@Eldarial: Okay.

[sleepy]

He's in S/T 12/13

edit: posted publicly when MoonlitDreams had his detection range in public text... since you pinpoint me anyway I'll just leave it public

[Eldariel]

He's in S/T 12/13

edit: posted publicly when MoonlitDreams had his detection range in public text... since you pinpoint me anyway I'll just leave it public

You're mixing horizontal and vertical there. L19-M20 would be a legal option, for example. Numbers are horizontal, letters are vertical (on this map). Either way, Moon detects you, and you don't detect him so it's pretty trivial.

Moon:
This won't be relevant but I gotta ask anyways, for future reference if nothing else; Sote is Huge upon entrance so he cannot fit into H10-J8 [I know he has burrow-speed; that's irrelevant, you never start burrowed] where 9/9 would place him. Which way do you choose to be shunted: G10-I8 or H11-J9?

[Eldariel]

Anyways, Moon's turn remains valid and you still don't get LoS so might as well proceed to your turn, sleepy.

[sleepy]

lol, brains do odd things sometimes. "The numbers each denote a vertical sequence, so that's the vertical axis."

Over here in the real world, I'm at L/M 19/20

[sleepy]

Mor'Korr pumps his wings, lifting in lurches from the ground.

Ok, I'll rise 10 feet off the ground. Assuming I still don't see anything from there, I'll fly to UV 9.10 (on top of the cliff), landing there if that's allowed. Should be 90 feet of movement, my current speed is 100ft.

Assuming I still see nothing, total defense.

HP: 240
AC: 51 (27 touch, 45 -dex)
Saves: +20/+8/+11

boots: 9/10

[Eldariel]

@Sleepy: K, you still see nothing.
@Moon: You no longer sense him with Tremorsense. Your turn.

[Moonlitdreams]

Eldariel:

I started shunted to G10-I8, then. My dire lion started right next to me at G6-H7, by the way. Assuming he sees Mor'Korr start flying, he trots after him.


Turn actions:

Double move: Burrow (15 underground) south to Y6-AA8. Do I sense my lion's movement as it goes toward Mor'Korr?

[Eldariel]

@Moon: Actually, as you move south, you sense Mor'Karr perched on the cliff (it's 10' up) at U9-V10 yourself. And yes, your Lion moves towards him though I'm not sure if he's able to actually attack with his reach; the cliff is 10' high and Dire Lion's natural reach is only 5' so he could attack from the edge but .

@sleepy: Actually, you see Sote's Dire Lion at G6-H7 and it moves towards you. His turn is probably not over yet.

[Moonlitdreams]

Turn actions (continued):

The Lion finishes its movement to R9-S10 and readies an action to attack Mor'Korr if he comes within its range.

Okay, if Sote' senses him, then he does not move all the way down to Y6-AA8. He finishes his movement by surfacing on the top of the cliff (burrowing through it) at W8-Y10.

Swift Action: Activate Boots of Temporal Acceleration.
"Round" 1: Wildshape into Storm Giant Form. Draw Blurstrike Greatsword from Glove of Storing as a swift action.

"Round" 2: Activate Ring of Deflection. (This round and next round's AC: 52, touch 48, FF 49) Full-attack as the Boot's power expires and time resumes.


A huge, rocky creature that you presume to be Sote' emerges from the cliff beside you and then your world slows. You barely realize that he has changed into a giant and is wielding a large greatsword before he is attacking you.


Full attack:
You are flatflooted against the first attack.

Greatsword: [roll0]
If it hits, damage: [roll1]

[roll2]
Damage: [roll3]

[roll4]
Damage: [roll5]

Slams: [roll6]
Damage: [roll7]

[roll8]
Damage: [roll9]

[roll10]
Damage: [roll11]

[roll12]
Damage: [roll13]

[sleepy]

I think the forum roller just made a mockery of this match. Nothing hits. Also, exactly which square(s) are you in?

edit: hang on, I'm supposed to do this before I know if it hits, so I'll declare it anyway. In response to your first attack, I initiate a maneuver. Please roll an opposed attack roll. If I win, your first attack targets you, otherwise, it is resolved normally.

1d20+31 plus whichever knowledge devotion bonus currently applies

[sleepy]

ack. [roll0]

[Moonlitdreams]

:smallsigh: The roller hates me, I think.

W8-Y10, atop the cliff.

Opposed attack roll: [roll0]

However, I will use my Belt of Battle for another full attack:

Full attack:
You are flatflooted against the first attack.

Greatsword: [roll1]
If it hits, damage: [roll2]

[roll3]
Damage: [roll4]

(1d20+16)[34]
Damage: [roll5]

Slams: [roll6]]
Damage: [roll7]

(1d20+25)[35]
Damage: [roll8]

[roll9]
Damage: [roll10]

[roll11]
Damage: [roll12]

Now it is your turn.

[Moonlitdreams]

Third from last attack roll: [roll0]

Edit: My first attack doesn't hit me, regardless.

[Eldariel]

Hold on, guys.

@Moon: Few things:

Swift Action: Activate Boots of Temporal Acceleration.
"Round" 1: Wildshape into Storm Giant Form. Draw Blurstrike Greatsword from Glove of Storing as a swift action.

"Round" 2: Activate Ring of Deflection. (This round and next round's AC: 52, touch 48, FF 49) Full-attack as the Boot's power expires and time resumes.


I'm assuming you mean Ring of Avoidance? It does the following:
"A ring of avoidance protects you with a nearly impassable shield of invisible force. Three times per day, upon activating the ring, you gain a +20 deflection bonus to Armor Class that lasts until the beginning of your next turn."

So it only protects you until your next turn; it doesn't work in rounds and indeed, doesn't protect you for the next round.


Full attack:

How can you full attack? Boots of Temporal Acceleration:
"Once per day, you can enter another time frame for 2 rounds, speeding up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually moving at normal speed. Other creatures are normally immune to your attacks, powers, or spells, but if you create an area effect that lasts longer than 2 rounds, that effect applies normally once the duration of the item’s effect expires.
..."

You could ready an action during it for when the Temporal Acceleration ends, but while you can full attack during Temporal Acceleration, it does nothing. Readied actions are Standard Actions so full attack is out of the question that way; you already spent your normal turn's actions on movement so you only have the Temporal Acceleration-actions left.

As such, I don't see how a full attack is possible; what you could do is use Temporal Acceleration first and move inside it and then do the stuff and full attack during your normal actions, but your present turn is, I think, impossible.

[sleepy]

that looks like you forgot to edit the roll tags back in after copy/paste a couple of times... go ahead and roll those ones. Looks like I win the opposed check, does your attack hit you? Do I become aware of any effects of the attack?

Incidentally I have uncanny dodge.


you've still got 1 more attack to reroll mate

[Moonlitdreams]

Eldariel:

Yes, I meant Ring of Avoidance, and okay then.

Okay then... I just regular attacked.


My first full-attack is not valid, only the first attack. But it didn't hit anyway.

Reroll: [roll0]

And my attack did not hit my AC, no. You are aware of no effects besides the fact that it was a giant Greatsword trying to swing into your head.

[Eldariel]

Alright, that makes it Sleepy's turn then, I assume.

[Eldariel]

And since it's a bit unclear, to recap the events of Moon's turn:

The Lion moves to R9-S10 and growls at Mor'Karr.

Sote appears from the ground on top of the cliff as a huge delver at W8-Y10.

Sote moves faster than your eye can follow, turning into a huge Giant.

Sote's movement stops and he tries to slice your head off with a single attack from his Greatsword, but misses as outlined above.


@Moon:
By the way, Glove of Storing is specifically a free action so it takes no action to retrieve your Sword.

Also, do you have the actions to both, attack and activate Ring on your last turn? By my math, you'd need Belt of Battle-charges for that as you need a Standard Action to ready an action [Readying any action, be it free, swift, move or standard, takes a Standard Action as per Rules Compendium] and Standard Action to activate the Ring; as the Ring only lasts 1 turn, it makes no sense to use it any earlier.

Make any corrections necessary before he takes his turn.

[sleepy]

Alright... my go then?

Mor'Korr leans left and right as the massive weapon cuts at him, wings twisting this way and that, his muscular tail lashing back and forth in counterbalance. (oh, I didn't mention the tail I guess. Append a large, scaled tail to your mental image. Black and red scales.) As the assault slows, he growls a command. Two pearls from his belt lose their lustre, and a second arcane word comes forth. Abruptly, your assumed form feels almost slippery, and resists holding its shape. A fire bursts into life deep in Mor'korr's eyes; his nostrils flare, and his counterattack begins.

actions
free action: designate Sote as my dodge target
swift action: activate belt of battle for a standard action
standard action: activate Antimagic Torc. This creates an AMF centered on me.
free action: begin raging
full round action: full attack, resolving Snap Kick as the first attack

note that Fool's Strike did not cost an action due to stance of alacrity

hp: 260 saves: +22/+7/+13 AC: 42+1 touch: 24+1 -dex: 41

boots of speed: 8/10 (supressed but still active)
rage: 15/15
belt: 1/3
antimagic field: 660/660

maneuvers readied:
counter charge, iron heart surge, mirrored pursuit, moment of alacrity, quicksilver motion, pouncing charge

...that should be everything. I wish I had time to enter a second stance... not activating the torc during the buff round was probably a mistake.

You are (mostly) inside an anti-magic field. It extends 10 feet from me in all directions. There's a ton of discussion in the recruitment thread about exactly what this means with respect to wild shape, but the short version is you don't de-shape unless you're completely inside, but anything that takes place inside the AMF you resolve as your base creature. At least, that's my understanding.

I'm assuming you currently count as an elemental, and thus not applying knowledge devotion. If that's incorrect, add +2 to all attack and damage rolls.

full attack: (edit: know-devotion applies, +2 to every roll)
unarmed strike: attack [roll0] damage [roll1]
unarmed strike: attack [roll2] damage [roll3]
unarmed strike: attack [roll4] damage [roll5]
unarmed strike: attack [roll6] damage [roll7]
claw: attack [roll8] damage [roll9]
claw: attack [roll10] damage [roll11]
slam: attack [roll12] damage [roll13]
gore: attack [roll14] damage [roll15]
bite: attack [roll16] damage [roll17]

...however, with each attack that hits, I attempt to start a grapple with as a free action. Basically I need to know what hits before I can roll these.

[sleepy]

ah, Giant? he still falls under Nature then, so +2 to everything

[Eldariel]

ah, Giant? he still falls under Nature then, so +2 to everything

Type does not change with Wildshape; you roll Nature on him regardless of his shape (Delver is an Aberration, but Knowledge Devotion cares about his Type which remains unchanged Monstrous Humanoid). Polymorph would be a different matter, but not the case here.

[Moonlitdreams]

The second unarmed strike hits. Damage noted. Go ahead and roll the grapple check.

Opposed check: [roll0]

[Eldariel]

Sleepy, you're still with us?

[sleepy]

Yeah, sorry. I had an exam to write yesterday.

You've really got a +36 to grapple in the AMF? Yowch.

grapple [roll0]

If that goes through, I'll use my remaining grapple attempts to pin. If *that* goes through, I'll use the remaining attempt to deal damage.

grapple [roll1]
grapple [roll2] dealing [roll3]



If you want to make any grapple checks on your turn, go ahead and roll my opposed roll. Modifier of +46.

[Moonlitdreams]

You pin Sote'. He suddenly begins changing, writhing in your grip as he becomes a lion-like creature made of writhing vines.

It tries to grapple you: [roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]
[roll4]
[roll5]

First that succeeds is to grapple you, second is to impale you on the spikes that the creature's vines have.

Also, behind you, the lion climbs the cliff and runs up behind you, stopping at S8-T9.

Turn actions:

Swift Action: Wildshape to Battlebriar Form (I can because I'm not fully in the AMF, right?)
Standard: Grapple, Attempt to Impale

Lion: Moves to S8-T9. Climb check: [roll6]

[Moonlitdreams]

My mistake, the lion then attacks you.

2 claws: [roll0] for [roll1] damage
[roll2] for [roll3] damage

Bite [roll4] for [roll5] damage


Now my turn is over.

[sleepy]

I'm pretty sure you can't do what you just did there. You are pinned (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050315a) and have extremely limited options for your actions.

Your lion also can't charge up a cliff, as far as I'm aware.

Lastly as you're attacking into an antimagic field, your grapple modifier and unarmed strike damage will be that of your base creature.

[sleepy]

Just wondering where we stand here.

[sleepy]

For the ref's: Moonlitdreams hasn't posted elsewhere on the boards since his last post here. I guess we pick this up when he returns.

[Moonlitdreams]

Sorry for the wait sleepy. I am back now.

The lion didn't charge up the cliff, it climbed up and then attacked.

And okay, Sote' does not change then, but still tries to grapple you with the checks made earlier.

[Eldariel]

The Lion cannot full attack after movement unless it's charging and it can't exactly charge up a cliff without a climb speed so it's limited to one attack.

Also, I'm going to say Wildshaping is all fair while Pinned since Supernatural abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities) don't, unless stated otherwise, require any movement, speech or similar stopped by Pin. This means the Grapple-check modifiers should remain constant. The linked article goes out of its way to point out SLAs are fair game when Pinned due to them requiring no components and Sus are basically like SLAs except even harder to interrupt so logically, Pin should not stop Wildshaping (or anything that doesn't require any kind of movement or speech from the character).

And yes, I know by RAW Pin-list is exclusive, not inclusive and as such what's not listed is not doable, but this is such a direct extrapolation of SLAs that it feels obvious enough to allow.

[Moonlitdreams]

Okay, then Sote' would have wildshaped before trying to grapple and impale.

The lion's bite attack is the only one that could have happened, with no full attack.

[sleepy]

The wildshaping I am ok with. The issue I was raising was that the grabbing and impaling can't happen until you win an opposed check to escape the pin. Furthermore I don't know which creature you've assumed the form of but unless it has unique special rules to the contrary, there's pretty much zero chance you have that many grapple attempts. You don't get your full attack routine worth of grapple checks, you never use more than one attack (ie no secondary, offhand, or other primary weapons), natural weapons generally don't recieve iteratives... I'd really like to see the rules for your form, if that's cool.

The lion's bite attack hits. What are its properties relevant for damage reduction? Also, if you were hoping to use Improved Grab, I count as Huge for this purpose. nevermind, was looking at the wrong numbers. 30 misses

[Eldariel]

The wildshaping I am ok with. The issue I was raising was that the grabbing and impaling can't happen until you win an opposed check to escape the pin. Furthermore I don't know which creature you've assumed the form of but unless it has unique special rules to the contrary, there's pretty much zero chance you have that many grapple attempts. You don't get your full attack routine worth of grapple checks, you never use more than one attack (ie no secondary, offhand, or other primary weapons), natural weapons generally don't recieve iteratives... I'd really like to see the rules for your form, if that's cool.

Grapple is a bit funny. You basically get to replace attack actions from your BAB with grapple-checks. I'd also assume various extra attacks are within the bounds of reason, but off-hand attacks do not count. That said, Sote is a Monk and as such has Monk's Unarmed Strike which, being a class-derived ability, stays around regardless of shape and thus he can roll normal iteratives on Grapple-checks. That said, I do not have any clue on how you roll 6 iteratives given 4 is the maximum even with Epic BAB, which should be impossible to acquire anyways. Most I can see is 3, but some creatures have Rake and few racial abilities, which would add extras.

However, Impaling doesn't happen regardless due to this funny little clause in the creature's ability:
"Whenever a ~this~ successfully starts a grapple with a Medium or smaller creature, there is a chance that the creature will become impaled..."

As the initiator of the Grapple was not Sote'Kazu, that condition is not fulfilled and as such, he may only strive to Pin, but not Impale. And yeah, if that's accounting for Flurry of blows, 3 first checks should happen at full BAB.

[sleepy]

Bonus attacks from Flurry are definitely not from "having a high base attack bonus", so I don't see how they generate grapple checks (notice I didn't count my Snap Kick attack above). You also can't use secondary attack sequences to generate grapple checks... you can "use a weapon" not "make a full attack". It's pretty much 3 checks for everyone in this arena unless something in their racial or class rules explicitely discusses grappling and makes an unusual allowance.

Regardless, unless I'm mistaken "defensive" grapple checks made to oppose an opponent's action don't lose BAB like an iterative, so I automatically win the opposed check against every roll except the first. So, if I don't roll a 5 or better here, Sote' escapes the pin but we are still grappling and I don't sustain damage.

grapple: [roll0]

In either case, assuming it's the beginning of my turn now, I move into Sote''s space as outlined in "continuing a grapple." Moon, this provokes an attack of opportunity from your lion, but unless he can stop my movement the AMF now completely covers your area and you deshape.

[Eldariel]

Bonus attacks from Flurry are definitely not from "having a high base attack bonus", so I don't see how they generate grapple checks (notice I didn't count my Snap Kick attack above). You also can't use secondary attack sequences to generate grapple checks... you can "use a weapon" not "make a full attack". It's pretty much 3 checks for everyone in this arena unless something in their racial or class rules explicitely discusses grappling and makes an unusual allowance.

Rules Compendium made Grapple-checks simple Attack Actions. As the most recent printing, it takes the precedence. So you're denied your off-hand attacks (as per Grapple-rules), but you're allowed all your mainhand attacks in Grapple. Also, yes, opposed Grapple-checks are always done at full bonus, which makes iteratives against anything but vastly weaker foes rather useless.

[sleepy]

Rules Compendium p.60


A creature that has a high enough Base Attack bonus can use a full-round action to make a Grapple check for every extra attack its Base Attack bonus would allow it if it were a character.

I hate rules lawyering =/

[Eldariel]

Rules Compendium p.60

Page 9:

"Grapple 28

28 This attack form substitutes for a melee attack. As such, it can be used once in an attack or charge, or one or more times during a full attack. It can even be used as an attack of opportunity."

[sleepy]

That's the touch attack to establish a grapple. Another bit from p60:


Regardless of who started the grapple, while you’re grappling, you can perform only the following maneuvers. Some maneuvers (as indicated in the following text) can be performed in place of an attack. If you can make multiple attacks because of a high base attack bonus, you can perform as many of one of these maneuvers as you have attacks. You can choose the same or a different maneuver for each attack.

I'm fine with proceeding otherwise, as long as we get Lyndwyrm to add some clarifications about how this gets handled to to arena thread.

[Eldariel]

That's the touch attack to establish a grapple.

It merely states "Grapple" rather than "Initiate Grapple"; it goes for every kind of a Grapple-check. Either way, it disagrees with the page 60 description that states:
"If you can make multiple attacks due to a high base attack bonus, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times by making a full attack."

As such, the primary source disagrees with itself and text trumps over table...but this is two cases of text. However, one is a footnote, and could therefore be considered a table entry and as such, the text wins. I do doubt they simply forgot about the fact that you can have extra mainhand attacks from sources other than BAB and thus simply stated in one place that you may replace attacks with BAB and in other place limited it to attacks derived from BAB.

As such, I'd say RAI would be that Grapplers do get to replace all mainhand attacks with Grapple-checks, by RAW it's a bit unclear. I found this line of interest in the Grapple-description:
"If you can make multiple attacks because of a high base attack bonus, you can perform as many of one of these maneuvers as you have attacks."

So under 6 BAB, you'd get no extra attacks but over 6 BAB, you get to use all your attack actions to perform the Grapple-maneuvers, by RAW. As an acting referee of the arena, I'm going to call this all major stupidity and general idiocy and simply say you may take full attack action in Grapple as per normal, using only your mainhand attacks, and replace every one of those mainhand attacks with any grapple action legal to use as an attack action. Lyndworm may overrule me here if he so desires, but as an acting referee of the arena, this'll be my ruling for now. Call this "common sense ruling when the game is stupid" if you will.

[sleepy]

I did an unholy amount of research on grappling mechanics in order to understand mor'Korr as I was building him... and yeah, the mechanics that exist tend to hinge off thin air and nothing anywhere says quite the same thing about how to divine which rules apply when. And the process for actually using Scorpion's Grasp doesn't seem to exist at all, not even by inference. Grappling definitely needs a "no trawling through obscure material for the most advantageous manifestation of inconsistency" ruling, so I'm nodding along.

I still think you're wrong because under your interpretation, a lot of things break. Are you really supposed to dodge the Flurry penalty by making opposed checks instead of attacks? Is it fine to do that with Power Attack and Combat Expertise too? Can I initiate Avalanche Of Blades, replace everything with touch attacks to establish a grab (dealing damage by winning checks), and proceed to make an absolute mess when my opponent isn't capable of maintaining holds? Or by holding him at arm's length via Scorpion's Grasp?

I'm pretty sure grapple options are restricted to BAB-generated attacks because not only are the two universal mechanics in core-3 that add attacks specifically disallowed grapple options, basically everything else that produces an attack has its cost bypassed if you use it to grapple. I'll grant that the grapple rules are full of other holes but this would stand out as an oversight.

That being said, I'm just giving my opinion and I'm not stressing the matter. I'm fine with allowing flurry. Just please let me know about things like snap kick and whirling frenzy, non-attack-action-generated attacks, combining attack riders with the touch-to-grab option, whether failing an opposed grapple check constitutes a miss, and how presicely I should go about using Scorpion's Grasp.






I'm pretty sure we can proceed with the match while we discuss this. Moon, as soon as you resolve your lion's OA and let me know what happens now that you're fully within the AMF, I'll go ahead with my turn. We are grappling, but you are not pinned.

[Eldariel]

Moon, whenever you're ready.

Sleepy, I suggest we move the whole discussion to the GWA Talkie Thread so we can get input from others and more importantly, official rulings from Lyndworm.

[Moonlitdreams]

I have to admit, I do not completely understand the conclusion of this discussion. So I will ask: can Sote' impale now that he has escaped the pin, or not?

[Eldariel]

I have to admit, I do not completely understand the conclusion of this discussion. So I will ask: can Sote' impale now that he has escaped the pin, or not?

No, he cannot. As I quoted earlier, Impale requires Sote to be the one starting the Grapple. To recap:


"However, Impaling doesn't happen regardless due to this funny little clause in the creature's ability:
"Whenever a ~this~ successfully starts a grapple with a Medium or smaller creature, there is a chance that the creature will become impaled..."

As the initiator of the Grapple was not Sote'Kazu, that condition is not fulfilled and as such, he may only strive to Pin, but not Impale. And yeah, if that's accounting for Flurry of blows, 3 first checks should happen at full BAB."

[Moonlitdreams]

Ah, yes. Thank you, Eldariel.

Lions AoO: Claw [roll0]
Damage: [roll1]

If Sote' is now fully within the AMF, he transforms into a small, bat-like creature with large wings and beady eyes.

Remaining Actions:

Free: Widen eyes.
Swift: Activate Belt of Battle, two charges.
Standard: Abundant step (a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door) to escape the grapple, ending at Y16, where the cliff blocks line of sight.

*EDIT*: Abundant step is a swift action, so no Belt of Battle is needed.


It is your turn, but Sote' has activated his belt and magically slips away, and now you do not see him.

[Moonlitdreams]

Crit threat on Aoo.
To confirm: [roll0]
Extra damage if confirmed: [roll1]

[sleepy]

Your magic item works in an AMF? o_O

You would be grappled (but not pinned) no matter how the above discussion ends because only your first grapple check, which you won, was high enough to beat my base grapple modifier. So for that turn it's kind of academic.

Waiting for confirm that you can vanish from inside an amf before continuing. Also does the lion's attack count as anything other than bludgeoning and piercing edit: assumed you used bite?

[Moonlitdreams]

No, the magic item doesn't work in AMFs, but class features do. So no activating the belt, but he should get away anyway, by my reading.

And the lion's attack was a claw. Counts as slashing.

[sleepy]

(ex) class features work... disappearing completely isn't a supernatural ability?

Alright, what do I perceive then, are you simply gone suddenly? My blindsense is still active (as well as scent), does that help?

[Moonlitdreams]

Okay then, scent definitely helps. You smell Sote' behind the small cliff at Y15.

[sleepy]

That presents a conundrum because I should only get a direction from scent without taking an action to pinpoint. However, when you exit the AMF, unless whatever you did ended it your wildshape will be un-suppressed. So, you're big again, and I should have LOS to you for blindsense and automatically pinpoint you (also don't forget you heal you to full).

My turn won't differ much wherever I "see" you, though, so we should be able to just put me where I belong after you let me know your location.

Ahem.


Contemptuously ignoring the cat, mor'Korr leaps into the air with a powerful sweep of his wings. His movements seem to accelerate as he sweeps in low toward his prey, building in intensity as if towards some inevitable crescendo. Landing easily as Sote' comes into reach of his long arms, claws begin to rake and slash even before his weight has fully settled.

swift action: initiate Moment of Alacrity (increases my initiative count by 20 at the end of this round)

move action: fly to Sote', square to be determined, on a path which provokes once from the lion and if possible 0 times from Sote'. Should be plenty of movement for that.

standard action: attack, and snap kick

hp: 256/260 saves: +22/+7/+13 AC: 42+1 touch: 24+1 -dex: 41

boots of speed: 7/10 (supressed but still active)
rage: 14/15
belt: 1/3
antimagic field: 659/660

maneuvers readied:

counter charge
iron heart surge
mirrored pursuit
quicksilver motion
pouncing charge

You note that mor'Korr initiates a martial maneuver. His flight will provoke another AoO from the lion. After landing, attacks vs Sote':

unarmed strike: [roll0] damage: [roll1]
unarmed strike: [roll2] damage: [roll3] (edit: my bad, this one's 4d6+12. so 22 damage)

No grapple attempts, and this will end my turn. However, at the end of this round (ie now), my initiative count improves by 20, so barring any funny business on your part I should be up again.



I'm actually not sure about this but I'm pretty sure my unarmed strikes count as bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing on account of beast strike. Eladriel?

[sleepy]

Oh, and in case you're invisible: concealment rolls, high hits
[roll0] reroll [roll1]
[roll2] reroll [roll3]

(blind-fight, in case you're curious)

[sleepy]

so, uh... hi?