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Frozen_Feet
2010-04-18, 12:52 PM
There have been quite a lot of these lately, eh? My version was inspired by this question: what is the role of the fighter? Within a party, it's to be a dumb beatstick who takes hits from monters and hits them back. However, what is their role in a setting? It can't be grunts, we have the NPC warriors for that. Logically, they're meant to be the elites and officers of different armies, but neither their class features or skills really reflect that. I mean, honestly, an officer without Bluff or Diplomacy? An elite without Survival and Heal? And why isn't Leadership a [Fighter] feat?

When doing this fix, I tried to shy away from the "bigger numbers" syndrome many fighter fixes have, and focus on giving my version tactical and out-of-combat versatility. It's your job to tell me how well I did.

Alignment: Any.

Hit die: d10

Class Skills: The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty, History, Martial Lore, Architechture, Local) (Int), Concentration (Con), Listen (Wis), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Bluff (Cha), Tumble (Dex), Gather Information (Cha)

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) ×4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Comments:One easy way to give a class more versatility is to give them more skillpoints and class skills, so I did just that. Additions found their way here either because I thought "Elite warrior should have this" or "a military leader shoud have that". Some were added because I felt they should've been there from the start.

{table=head]Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special
1st | +1 | +2 | +0 | +2 | Elite training, Squad Leader |
2nd | +2 | +3 | +0 | +3 | Bonus Feat, Show of Strength |
3rd | +3 | +3 | +1 | +3 | Tactical Interference|
4th | +4 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Bonus Feat|
5th | +5 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Leader of Men |
6th | +6/+1 | +5 | +2 | +5 | Bonus Feat |
7th | +7/+2 | +5 | +2 | +5 | Stand Against the Tide |
8th | +8/+3 | +6 | +2 | +6 | Bonus Feat|
9th | +9/+4 | +6 | +3 | +6 | Combat Mastery |
10th | +10/+5 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Bonus Feat |
11th | +11/+6/+1 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Cunning Bastard |
12th | +12/+7/+2 | +8 | +4 | +8 | Bonus Feat |
13th | +13/+8/+3 | +8 | +4 | +8 | Combat Highmastery|
14th | +14/+9/+4 | +9 | +4 | +9 | Bonus Feat |
15th | +15/+10/+5 | +9 | +5 | +9 | Heroic Dash |
16th | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Bonus Feat |
17th | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Combat Grandmastery|
18th | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +11 | +6 | +11 | Bonus Feat |
19th | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +11 | +6 | +11 | Greater Tactical Interference |
20th | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +12 | +6 | +12 | Bonus Feat, God of War |
[/table]

Comments:I doubt I'm the only one who's always felt skilled warriors should have a strong will.

Class Features

All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Elite Training:
A fighter has been picked to be one of the best, and his training reflects that. At 1st level, he gains the Weapon Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponFocus) feat for free. He may opt to swap it for Improved Unarmed Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedUnarmedStrike) or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#exoticWeaponProficiency) instead.

Squad Leader (Ex):
A fighter has been trained to lead a squad of warriors in battle, and thus his understanding of group tactics is peerless. In combat, whenever working as the designated leader of a team of eight or less people, he can grant any member of the team a + (BAB / 2) circumstance bonus to any check as an immediate action once per round.

Comments:Aid Another on steroids. This is supposed to be an abstract representation of fighter giving order or advice to his friends.

Bonus Feats:
The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

Show of Strenght (Ex):
A skilled fighter is a fearsome sight in battle. Whenever he threatens a critical against a foe, he may use Intimidate as a free action. He may also substitute his Strenght modifier for Charisma when using said skill.

Comments:Because fighters should be fearsome. Basically stealing a leaf from samurai's book here.

Tactical Interference (Ex):
A fighter knows how to exploit the weaknesses of his enemies, and can fast-talk them, throw a peble or flip the finger at them at the very worst moment. By spending one of his attacks of oppurtunity for the round, as an immediate action the fighter can make a Bluff check opposed by target's Sense Motive against any character within his line of sight. If the roll succeeds, he can foil any free, swift or immediate action taken by that character. At 19th level, this ability extends to standard actions as well.

Comments:Shamelessly copying Inspired by Tome Fighter. This should open all sorts of tactical avenues for the Fighter, especially against spellcasters.

EDIT: the mechanic of this ability has gone from nothing to Ranged Touch Attack to Skill Check. Thanks to Kuma Kode and Godskook for ideas.

Leader of Men (Ex):
As a fighter's skills improve, he's expected to take more and more responsibilty from an ever larger amount of soldiers. At 5th level, a fighter gains the Leadership (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#leadership) feat for free, even though he doesn't meet the prerequisites.

For games that don't allow Leadership, use Platoon Leader (See below) instead.

Comments:Fighters get Leadership one level early, yay! This is here because 5th level is regarded as the "peak of the ordinary"; any soldier so good should be a military leader, so why not give the ability to do so for free? Added an ACF for DMs who hate Leadership.

Stand Against the Tide (Ex):
A fighter's men look up to him for inspiration, and a true warrior doesn't let them down. All allies that have line of sight to you are immune to any fear effect by which you are unaffected.

Comments:Thanks to Godskook for better wording.

Combat Mastery (Ex):
A fighter's expertise in the art of war overshadows lesser wanderers on the martial path. At 9th level, all static *) bonuses granted by [Fighter] **) feats to AC, DR, attack rolls, damage, iniative, skill checks and saving throws are multiplied by 1.5, rounding up; at 13th and 17th level respectively, this changes to x2 and x3. At his discredition the DM may allow this feat to apply to other numerical bonuses as well.

*) This means feats like Weapon Focus, Dodge or Improved Grapple are applicable, but Combat Expertise and Power Attack are not.
**) [Fighter] denotes all feats that can be taken as fighter bonus feats.

Example: Normally, the Improved Initiative feat grants +4 to initiative checks. For 9th level fighter, the bonus is multiplied by 1,5 , to +6. At 13th level, it's doubled to +8, and at 17th tripled to +12.

Comments:This is my take on the "bigger numbers" stuff - basically making feats scale. I don't foresee this breaking all that much, but you never know what surprises life brings with it.

Cunning Bastard (Ex):
A skilled fighter is masterful in befuddling his enemies, hiding crucial information from them as well as resisting being fooled himself. All Sense Motive, Bluff, Gather Information or Knowledge checks made against a fighter of 11th level or higher suffer a -6 circumstance penalty. In addition, the fighter himself gains a +3 competence bonus to such checks, and may substitute his Intelligence for Charisma when using Bluff, Gather Information and Diplomacy if doing so would be beneficial for him.

Heroic Dash(Ex):
A high-level fighter can move with such speed and skill as to leave his enemies gawking in amazement as he seems to disappear from sight. At the start of his turn, the fighter may as a free action move up to his speed. This movement provokes no attacks of oppurtunity, but is still affected by difficult terrain and doesn't allow a fighter to pass through opponents. Any enemies who were threatening the fighter before the use of this ability count as Dazzled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dazzled) for the rest of the round.

Using this ability is very demanding. If it's used thrice within 5 rounds, the fighter using it becomes Fatigued (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#fatigued). Four or more times within 5 rounds, and the fighter becomes Exhausted (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#exhausted).

Fighters immune to fatigue: Not feeling exhaustion may seem like a boon to a fighter, but if he's not careful his own body will suffer from the excessive use of this ability. Third time he uses this ability within 5 rounds, he will take 1 point of hitpoint damage for each five feet traversed. Fourth time, he will take 1 point of hitpoint damage for each two feet. Fifth use within five rounds and each consecutive use after that will cause the fighter to suffer 1 point of hitpoint damage per each foot traversed.

Comments:Another ability to increase tactical versatility. I'm not sure how powerful this is. Do you think it comes in too late?

Changed a few time to make it feel more like "really fast movement" and less like "teleport". Thanks to EpicEvokerElf for the name.

God of War (Ex):
By 20th level, a fighter's deeds are well known and his sheer presence causes terror among his foes. Lesser opponents flee at sight and spellcasters find it hard to muster concentration to use their abilities.

The fighter gains Frightful Presence with a 100' range against all hostile creatures. This ability is triggered every time the fighter attacks someone. All creatures with fewer Hit Dice than the fighter has are forced to make a Will saving throw against (10 + ˝ fighter's HD + fighter's Str or Cha modifier (whichever's higher)) or become frightened (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#frightened) for 5d6 rounds. Those who succeed the saving throw become immune to this ability for the next 24 hours. In addition, all hostile actions requiring concentration (such as spellcasting or manifesting) taken within 100' range fail unless the actor wins an opposed concentration skill check against the fighter's intimidate check. Spells, Powers as well as Supernatural, Psi-like and Spell-like abilities do not protect from these effects.

Comments:By 20th level, a character has probably saved the world a dozen times or so. They can go against beings of legends and expect to survive, even win. Everyone and their mothers should know these guys, and pee their pants if such a figure threatens them with violence.

The last line is there just so wizards & Co can't laugh the capstone off. Curl up in a corner and cry, Mind Blank.

New Fighter Feats:

Comments:Few new feats to support the new class features, and some I just felt like throwing in.

Armor Optimization [General] [Fighter]
Prerequisites: BAB +1, Heavy Armor proficiency
Effect: All armor check penalties are halved. Maximum Dex modifier is increased by (BAB / 4).
Normal: Use listed penalties for armor.

Esteemed Tactician [Fighter]
Prerequisites: BAB +3, Int 13, Tactical Interference class feature
Effect: This feat grants +2 bonus to Knowledges Martial Lore, History, Local and Architechture. It also allows the fighter to use Tactical Interference twice per round.

Platoon Leader [Fighter]
Prerequisites: Fighter 5, Cha 13
Effect: This feat allows fighter's Squad Leader ability to be used multiple times per round, up to the fighter's Cha modifier. It can only be used once for each team member. Amount of applicable team members is raised to 30.

No You Won't [Fighter]
Prerequisites: Fighter 10, Int 13, Tactical Interference class feature
Effect: Once per round, a fighter can use his Tactical Interference to foil any one move action.

Underhanded Blow [General] [Fighter]
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike
Effect: You gain one extra unarmed attack at your full BAB whenever you attack in melee. You can decide when in your attack sequence this extra attack takes place.

Combat Medic [General] [Fighter]
Prerequisites: 4 ranks in Heal, BAB +1
Effect: You can give first aid as a swift action. If you still decide to do it as a standard action, you get +4 bonus to your Heal check.

Also, you can make a special Heal check to give temporary hitpoints to a wounded character (including yourself). At most you, you can give temporary hitpoints up to your (BAB + 5) or amount of hitpoints the character has lost, whichever is less. The DC for the check is (10 + amount of hitpoints given) and the action takes 10 minutes. These hitpoints last for 8 hours. You can't give more temp. hitpoints via Combat Medic to a character who still has temporary hitpoints left from a previous use.
Normal: Giving first aid is a standard action. Heal does not give temporary hitpoints.

Anatomical Knowledge [General] [Fighter]
Prerequisites: 8 ranks in Heal, Combat Medic
Effect: When fighting a creature of your own type or a type you've previously used Heal on, you can as a swift action make a Heal Check against the target's HD. For every 4 points your check exceeds their HD, your attacks will do 1 point of extra damage for the rest of the fight.

Greater Stunning Fist [Fighter]
Prerequisites: Stunning Fist, BAB +12
Effect: Every time you threaten a critical with an unarmed strike, that attack counts as a Stunning Fist attempt. This does not expend your Stunning Fist uses for the day.

Light-Hero
2010-04-18, 01:25 PM
I could use this build in a campaign I am currently running.

I let you know if my players chose to use it.

But i think compared to the original fighter he has to much class feature, such my op pion. It seems he has all that a fighter has + way more.

al'raith
2010-04-18, 01:43 PM
i agree with Light-Hero its a too gnarly fighter maybe making the bonus feat progression like that of the psychic warrior

Nero24200
2010-04-18, 01:50 PM
Given what some abilities are like, it seems a little hard (for me at least) to really assess it's power. But a few things do spring to mind right away...


Elite Training:
A fighter has been picked to be one of the best, and his training reflects that. At 1st level, he gains the Weapon Focus feat with three different weapons for free. He may opt to swap one or more these feats for Improved Unarmed Strike or Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
Seems a bit much for 1st level. Maybe only one Weapon Focus Feat (or proficency) at 1st level, with a few more with more levels?


Squad Leader (Ex):
A fighter has been trained to lead a squad of warriors in battle, and thus his understanding of group tactics is peerless. In combat, whenever working as the designated leader of a team of eight or less people, he can grant any member of the team a +2 circumstance bonus to any check as an immediate action.
It may require some leg-work, but I'd make a definate list of what this applies to. Even if alot of people can't see it right away, I can see there being a way to break this ability without a definate list of what it applies to.


Leader of Men (Ex):
As a fighter's skills improve, he's expected to take more and more responsibilty from an ever larger amount of soldiers. At 5th level, a fighter gains the Leadership feat for free, even though he doesn't meet the prerequisites.
This makes me very reluctant. Remember that leadership can be a bit of a pain for some DMs and can cause other problems - hence why it's in the DM guide rather than the PHB. Also, while this is a personal thing more than anything else, I can't see how "You have more characters to control" can be balanced for any class.


Combat Mastery (Ex):
A fighter's expertise in the art of war overshadows lesser wanderers on the martial path. At 9th level, all bonuses granted by [Fighter] feats to AC, DR, attack rolls, damage, iniative, skill checks and saving throws are multiplied by 1.5, rounding up; at 13th and 17th level respectively, this changes to x2 and x3. At his discredition the DM may allow this feat to apply to other numerical bonuses as well.
Again, it would be a real pain, but I'd list what feats exactly this ability applies to and to what extent. Otherwise, again, you'll end up with some combos that break the game easily.

Ilriyn
2010-04-18, 02:15 PM
This is one of the fighter variants that I actually like. It gives the fighter some logical and useful abilities, without making him into a wanabe mage.

However, I do think that the Time Stands Still feature is a bit overpowered. Currently, there is no limit to how often he can do this; so a fighter could consistently move into a good charging position as a free action, without leaving himself open to AoE's, and charge every round. Or, he could consistently threaten an enemy spellcaster, no matter what he does. I think that this ability would become much more balanced if the fighter could only do it a certain amount of times per day/encounter.

Also, like Nero said, I wouldn't force the leadership feat on DM's that don't want to use it. I would suggest coming up with an alternate ability.

Frozen_Feet
2010-04-18, 02:59 PM
But i think compared to the original fighter he has to much class feature, such my op pion. It seems he has all that a fighter has + way more.


i agree with Light-Hero its a too gnarly fighter maybe making the bonus feat progression like that of the psychic warrior

That's because there isn't much you can take away. I'll put it behind my ear to change the feat progression to that of Psionic Warrior if this argument persists.


This makes me very reluctant. Remember that leadership can be a bit of a pain for some DMs and can cause other problems - hence why it's in the DM guide rather than the PHB. Also, while this is a personal thing more than anything else, I can't see how "You have more characters to control" can be balanced for any class.



Also, like Nero said, I wouldn't force the leadership feat on DM's that don't want to use it. I would suggest coming up with an alternate ability.
Point taken. I'll devise an ACF for it.



However, I do think that the Time Stands Still feature is a bit overpowered. Currently, there is no limit to how often he can do this; so a fighter could consistently move into a good charging position as a free action, without leaving himself open to AoE's, and charge every round. Or, he could consistently threaten an enemy spellcaster, no matter what he does. I think that this ability would become much more balanced if the fighter could only do it a certain amount of times per day/encounter.
.
True. I'll make it so that two uses will cause Fatigue, and four uses will cause Exhaustion for the fighter. That should create and incentive not to spam it.


About Elite Training: Seems a bit much for 1st level. Maybe only one Weapon Focus Feat (or proficency) at 1st level, with a few more with more levels?Proficiencies and Weapon Focus are among the weakest feats one can take, but you are right it's a bit front-loaded. I'll change it to one of the three.


About Squad Leader: It may require some leg-work, but I'd make a definate list of what this applies to. Even if alot of people can't see it right away, I can see there being a way to break this ability without a definate list of what it applies to.
It's a flat +2 to any roll, once per round. I have very hard time coming up with anything that would break from that.


Again, it would be a real pain, but I'd list what feats exactly this ability applies to and to what extent. Otherwise, again, you'll end up with some combos that break the game easily.

I believe I already did: all bonuses granted by [Fighter] feats to AC, DR, attack rolls, damage, iniative, skill checks and saving throws are multiplied by 1.5, 2 or 3. Unless you consider tripping or grappling broken, there should be little that breaks from a small numerical tweak.

JKTrickster
2010-04-18, 03:31 PM
Wow I really enjoy this Fighter Variant! Although I'm thinking it's less of a variant and more of a complete Fighter fix.

Something I'm looking out for is a new emphasis on Int and Cha. Really flavorful, and helps make the fighter more versatile with what they want to do. Not sure if this might make it MAD though...

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-18, 04:16 PM
I like this, Stand against the tide is especially funky.

I'll be subscribing to this for future use.

Mongoose87
2010-04-18, 04:23 PM
This is pretty awesome. However, I think "No You Won't" might be a little too strong.

Godskook
2010-04-18, 04:24 PM
First read:

Nice job!

-----------------

I don't have time to really give it the once over, but I can say that overall, it looks like you did a good job adding to the class in the ways it needed additions. Also, you've improved on the overall flavor, while staying true to the original concept, so that's a plus as well.

Some of the new abilities need to be read-over a few times before I'll be able to make any kind of educated guess on how good/bad they are, but I spent lot time thinking to myself "That's a really good ability" without getting the overall impression that this class overpowered. I feel that's how a class should be.

Godskook
2010-04-19, 09:50 AM
Tactical interference needs a save or opposed roll mechanic, or its overpowered, really. The ability to no-save deprive an opponent of his swift and standard action every single turn is just over the top. It might also need other limiting factors, but at a minimum, it can't be a no-save thing.

Also, Esteemed Tactician needs to be reworded to match what I'm guessing is the RAI of it. Right now, by RAW, it doesn't provide any bonus to Tactical Interference, but I think RAI is that it allows you to do so twice in one round.

Underhanded blow is oddly worded, and seems needlessly limited. There's already precedence for a character having multiple attacks with different threat ranges, so there's no need to shut down the feat with certain weapon choices. The lack of in-range opponents will do that for you.

Anatomical Knowledge is kinda neat, but expect DMs not to like it. The wording encourages buying a wand of SMI and SNAI for experimentation. Sadly, I know of no way to help this.

Squad leader can use a small boost. How about 1/2 fighter level instead of +2?

Rewording suggestion:

Stand Against the Tide (Ex):
A fighter's men look up to him for inspiration, and a true warrior doesn't let them down. All allies that have line of sight to you are immune to any fear effect by which you are unaffected.

Combat Medic is a dead feat at high levels. Not really sure how to fix this.

On the Time stand Still ability. Have you considered that Warforged are frequently fighters?

Frozen_Feet
2010-04-19, 01:18 PM
Tactical interference needs a save or opposed roll mechanic, or its overpowered, really. The ability to no-save deprive an opponent of his swift and standard action every single turn is just over the top. It might also need other limiting factors, but at a minimum, it can't be a no-save thing.
Now it requires a ranged touch attack to work.


Also, Esteemed Tactician needs to be reworded to match what I'm guessing is the RAI of it. Right now, by RAW, it doesn't provide any bonus to Tactical Interference, but I think RAI is that it allows you to do so twice in one round.
Fixed.


Underhanded blow is oddly worded, and seems needlessly limited. There's already precedence for a character having multiple attacks with different threat ranges, so there's no need to shut down the feat with certain weapon choices. The lack of in-range opponents will do that for you.
Changed the wording. Better?


Anatomical Knowledge is kinda neat, but expect DMs not to like it. The wording encourages buying a wand of SMI and SNAI for experimentation. Sadly, I know of no way to help this.
Um... calling forth bizarre magical creatures to play doctor with, so you can later better hit them in the nads? Wouldn't that be what we call roleplaying? Considering the cost of pulling this off (one sub-optimal feat, ranks in sub-optimal skill, gold, time), I say a player willing to do it deserves the bonuses.


Squad leader can use a small boost. How about 1/2 fighter level instead of +2?
Done.


Rewording suggestion:
Yes, that's much better, thank you. Changed.


Combat Medic is a dead feat at high levels. Not really sure how to fix this.
I realized that when making the feat, but I couldn't think of any other expansion of Heal skill that would still fit the theme. What if you could allies or yourself (BAB) temporary hitpoints with it? I'm open to suggestions.


On the Time stand Still ability. Have you considered that Warforged are frequently fighters?

Ah yes, wonky creature types. Because I'd rather not tie the ability to use / time pattern, I gave it an alternative penalty. Tell me what you think.

JonestheSpy
2010-04-19, 01:39 PM
However, what is their role in a setting? It can't be grunts, we have the NPC warriors for that. Logically, they're meant to be the elites and officers of different armies, but neither their class features or skills really reflect that. I mean, honestly, an officer without Bluff or Diplomacy? An elite without Survival and Heal? And why isn't Leadership a [Fighter] feat?

Without commenting on the actual build, I have to say I think the initial premise is flawed. Yes, you can create a character who has a military background, but most adventurers by necessity work alone or in small groups, and quite often would have personalities totally unsuited for being part of a standing army.

I'm thinking of the great fighters from fantastic fiction - Conan, Fafhrd, the Gray Mouser, and Inigo Montoya all leap to mind as examples.

Ashtagon
2010-04-19, 01:54 PM
Without commenting on the actual build, I have to say I think the initial premise is flawed. Yes, you can create a character who has a military background, but most adventurers by necessity work alone or in small groups, and quite often would have personalities totally unsuited for being part of a standing army.

I'm thinking of the great fighters from fantastic fiction - Conan, Fafhrd, the Gray Mouser, and Inigo Montoya all leap to mind as examples.

Of those, Conan actually did command an army on more than one occasion, Inigo could just as easily be portrayed as a rogue (or even a swashbuckler from the splatbooks), Fafrhd is really a ranger/rogue (if you believe what 1e AD&D wrote about him in Deities and Demigods). Even the Grey Mouser is listed as having several more rogue levels than fighter levels in that book.

Frozen_Feet
2010-04-19, 01:59 PM
You'd better scrap Conan from the list - while adventured alone a lot, he was also an esteemed leader and eventually became a king, leading a whole nation to prosperity.

Yes, there are loads of powerful invidual warriors in fiction. But even a vanilla fighter can take and dish out damage, ie. be a powerful invidual warrior. You can still play big dumb guy with a stick with this variant, just dumb charisma and forget about leadership. However, literature also has powerful warriors who are esteemed leaders as well - that's something a core fighter ought to be able to pull off, but can't.

This variant still has lots of that "better warrior than thou" stuff which allows you to shine in single combat. After all, the other part of my vision was to make them better Elite soldiers as well. But the core fighter was more lacking in the leadership department, so more new stuff was concentrated on fixing that.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-19, 02:00 PM
This version of "Fighter" is good for Leadership-Munkyz. Thats it. and even then, marshall and dragon shaman do a better job

Godskook
2010-04-19, 02:01 PM
Also, Conan the Barbarian, was, of all things, a barbarian.

-----------

@Frozen_Feet, Time Stands Still and Tactical Interference are both still very worrisome abilities in terms of balance.

Ranged touch attacks don't really fit Tactical Interference on a fluff level, and base monsters don't have scaling touch AC all the way up to CR 20. This means that its still an auto-hit in late game.

With Time Stands Still, you're essentially giving free teleport every round for the most important rouds of combat(Round 1 and 2) with no cost at all to it, not even an action activation. It also gives a minor debuff to opponents, at no save. Best analogs I can think of is Horizon Walker's DDoor ability(1d4 round timer, move action activation), Swordsage's maneuvers(Various activation cost, full-round recovery) or Reserve Feats(Standard Action). Considering that, you might want to tone it down somehow, or change how it works.

Frozen_Feet
2010-04-19, 02:11 PM
This version of "Fighter" is good for Leadership-Munkyz. Thats it. and even then, marshall and dragon shaman do a better job

Is that so? Could you perhaps expand on why you feel the new class features are insufficient to do anything else?

I'm not familiar with Marshall or Dragon Shaman - if they're still better leaders, fine. Surpassing them in this narrow area isn't really what this variant is about - it's about having a more versatile, well-rounded fighter. What I'd be more interested in would be where said classes stand in comparison to vanilla fighter and this variant when compared in overall utility.

Kuma Kode
2010-04-19, 02:57 PM
I really, really like this fighter variant, and will probably even use it in place of the normal fighter when I DM a fantasy setting again. It fixes some of the versatility problems of the fighter beyond "I get good at swinging my sword."

How about Tactical Interference being an opposed check? Perhaps Bluff or Intimidate vs. the enemy's Concentration or Sense Motive?

Bluff would be tricking them into pay attention, Intimidate would be demanding their attention with your force of presence, and the opposed checks would either be Concentration to ignore you despite your attempts or Sense Motive to recognize that you're trying to distract them.

I also agree that Time Stands Still is a little... supernatural. I have no idea how to fix it, really, other than Godskook's suggestion of looking at similar abilities and adapting it to work more like one of them.

Frozen_Feet
2010-04-19, 04:12 PM
Ranged touch attacks don't really fit Tactical Interference on a fluff level, and base monsters don't have scaling touch AC all the way up to CR 20. This means that its still an auto-hit in late game.


How about Tactical Interference being an opposed check? Perhaps Bluff or Intimidate vs. the enemy's Concentration or Sense Motive?

Bluff would be tricking them into pay attention, Intimidate would be demanding their attention with your force of presence, and the opposed checks would either be Concentration to ignore you despite your attempts or Sense Motive to recognize that you're trying to distract them.

I liked the idea of keying the ability from Bluff - implemented. It also happens to give nice synergy with Cunning Bastard. I also like the idea of using Intimidate - maybe make it a feat?

I'm afraid the basic problem of "auto-hit most people" will still remain, as skill checks can get arbitrarily high and not all characters can afford to pump Sense Motive. I'm not that worried about balance, though, as I feel full casters will taste the brunt of the ability, and frankly, they deserve a punch to the nose. I think there are enough ways to maneuver around the ability (Block LoS, bring your friends with you...) for it to not be gamebreaking.



With Time Stands Still, you're essentially giving free teleport every round for the most important rouds of combat(Round 1 and 2) with no cost at all to it, not even an action activation. It also gives a minor debuff to opponents, at no save. Best analogs I can think of is Horizon Walker's DDoor ability(1d4 round timer, move action activation), Swordsage's maneuvers(Various activation cost, full-round recovery) or Reserve Feats(Standard Action). Considering that, you might want to tone it down somehow, or change how it works.



I also agree that Time Stands Still is a little... supernatural. I have no idea how to fix it, really, other than Godskook's suggestion of looking at similar abilities and adapting it to work more like one of them.
I changed it so it's basically a normal move, just taken as a free action. Is the wording clear enough?

Let's make this clear: it is meant to be superhuman. However, that's not the same a supernatural. Even a vanilla fighter past level five will be breaking realistic human limitations, he just does so more discreetly than a wizard.

By clvl 15, a fighter most likely has physical attributes that make RL athletes pale in comparison. Time Stands Still is supposed to represent him squeezing all out of that top-notch physique. Dazzling is more flavor than anything - if you look at its description, you'll notice it governs visual overstimulation among other things. Something I think would be caused if you try to follow someone who is much faster than you.

Kuma Kode
2010-04-19, 06:40 PM
Well, considering Tumble is a flat DC that lets you avoid attacks of opportunity caused by moving without any opposed check at all which shorts out several reach builds, I don't see pretty much being able to crash anyone who relies of free or swift actions who suck at a certain opposed check to be that overpowered. Its not like you're denying them an action altogether, just crashing their ability to squeeze out some extra powers.

Feints have the same problem, being based on Bluff vs. Sense Motive. They're automatic against nearly any opponent, since few characters have ranks in Sense Motive.

Uncle Festy
2010-04-19, 08:25 PM
Hm. Being able to outright stop standard actions with No You Won't seems a bit overpowered, but on the other hand, stopping an opponent from taking a free action is useless because they can just do it again.

Godskook
2010-04-19, 09:16 PM
Hm. Being able to outright stop standard actions with No You Won't seems a bit overpowered, but on the other hand, stopping an opponent from taking a free action is useless because they can just do it again.

You'd be surprised how many wizard tricks are based on free actions, though, such as the foil hat of safety.

Uncle Festy
2010-04-19, 09:42 PM
You'd be surprised how many wizard tricks are based on free actions, though, such as the foil hat of safety.

Granted, but it just seems a bit narrow.
Maybe add the clause, "they can't use it again until their next round", summat like that? So you can disrupt other free actions.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-04-19, 11:33 PM
...wow. I'd honestly strongly consider taking this over a martial adept class. Nice work here, Frozen_feet! I'd look to rename Time Stands Still (perhaps Burst of Speed or Heroic Dash or something), as it's a little confusing with the maneuver of the same name. All in all, there's little I see that's not been mentioned and fixed, and it looks able to hold its own in combat nicely. I'd look into the fighter abilities from Pathfinder, were I you, to supplement these - Weapon and Armor training are quite nicely written.

One quick problem - Armor Optimization looks a little too good at first glance, though it increases MAD by making Dexterity useful. I'm undecided after rereading it... just think about whether you want full plate to have a max Dex of +6 by level 5. Probably not an issue, but worth contemplating.

Frozen_Feet
2010-04-20, 06:07 AM
Hm. Being able to outright stop standard actions with No You Won't seems a bit overpowered, but on the other hand, stopping an opponent from taking a free action is useless because they can just do it again.
I'm fairly sure there is other "once per round, as a free or immediate action" stuff than my fighter's abilities. It shoud also be noted that if this variant is in play, enemies too might have access to its abilities. :smallwink:


...wow. I'd honestly strongly consider taking this over a martial adept class. Nice work here, Frozen_feet! I'd look to rename Time Stands Still (perhaps Burst of Speed or Heroic Dash or something), as it's a little confusing with the maneuver of the same name. All in all, there's little I see that's not been mentioned and fixed, and it looks able to hold its own in combat nicely. I'd look into the fighter abilities from Pathfinder, were I you, to supplement these - Weapon and Armor training are quite nicely written.

One quick problem - Armor Optimization looks a little too good at first glance, though it increases MAD by making Dexterity useful. I'm undecided after rereading it... just think about whether you want full plate to have a max Dex of +6 by level 5. Probably not an issue, but worth contemplating.
Renamed Time Stands Still to Heroic Dash. Thanks for the suggestion - I knew such maneuver existed, but couldn't come up with anything else.

Changed Armor Optimization's Max Dex change to (BAB / 4). I took a peek at Pathfinder SRD; the feat effectively does half of Armor training now, doesn't it? I'm thinking of making another feat, which grants the rest of the bonuses and some extra to make it worth the feat.

I'm not sure about weapon training. I'd love to give tha class something like it or Warblade's Weapon Aptitude, but I think the class has enough features as is. Again, maybe make it a feat to round out the Weapon Specialization tree? Here's a question: would it be worth it? Some food for thought:


At level 8th, you can have Wep. Foc, Wep. Spec. and G. Wep. Foc. , for +2 to hit and +2 to damage. This costs two feats, or three if you opted for Unarmed strike or Exotic Weapon.
For level 9 Fighter, these bonuses become +4 to hit and +3 to damage.
At level 12th, you can have Wep. Foc, Wep. Spec., G. Wep. Foc and G. Wep. Spec. , for +4 to hit and +6 to damage. This costs three feats, or four if you opted for Unarmed strike or Exotic Weapon.
For level 13 Fighter, these bonuses become +4 to hit and +8 to damage.
You get your next bonus feat next level, at 14th. Lets say this feat is Weapon Aptitude. By spending 1 hour practicing, you can now apply aforementioned bonuses to any weapon you're proficient with.
For level 17 Fighter, these bonuses become +6 to hit and +12 to damage.


Cost for the above: 4 or 5 feats and 17 levels of Fighter.

EDIT: Minor edits to some feats. Combat Medic can now give temporary hitpoints; is the wording good? Swapped around effects of No You Won't and Greater Tactical Interference - the former now effects move actions, and latter standard ones.

Ossian
2010-04-20, 06:40 AM
OP




This variant is absolutely Awesome. I feel like I can stat Gatsu from Berserk (one of my favourites of all time) without even having to multiclass or prestige class.

Well done, two thumbs up!