[D&D 3.5] Low-level Undead that can pass for human?

[KillianHawkeye]

Had an idea for an undead villain who likes to walk into unsuspecting towns disguised as a human. For various reasons, I'd like to get this done using alter self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) if possible. I need some good suggestions for what kind of undead look enough like humans to make this work. Per the rules of alter self, it has to be corporeal, have 5 or less Hit Dice, and can't be a templated creature (so no Vampires, but Vampire Spawn are okay). Ideally, I'd prefer something that can survive during the day without becoming powerless.

If you're wondering, it's going to be a Spellstitched Nightwalker, possibly with a couple class levels added on (and ignoring the Spellstitched template's restriction on the SLAs' schools of magic).


Thanks! :smallsmile:

EDIT: Oops, I just noticed that alter self can only change your size by 1 size category, so my Huge Nightwalker can't become Medium sized that way. Does anybody know of a way around that restriction? Or any way to shrink an undead creature? Should I just fiat an alternate form ability? :smallannoyed::smallsigh:

[Magicyop]

I... I don't understand the question. You asked us for a type of undead, then you GAVE us the type of undead.

You said you needed it to be low level, then you named a high level one.

I really don't understand the question, sorry. This isn't a snark or an insult, but I really don't understand what you're looking for?

If you are DMing, you can easily just change the size category. You don't need any sort of template, just state that it is only a Large Nightwalker instead of a Huge one.

[Rad]

I... I don't understand the question. You asked us for a type of undead, then you GAVE us the type of undead.

You said you needed it to be low level, then you named a high level one.

I really don't understand the question, sorry. This isn't a snark or an insult, but I really don't understand what you're looking for?
As I understand it, the guy is going to be that particular undead which, I understand, does NOT look like a human. He'd like to use alter self to do that, but the can spell only transform you into something with your own creature type. Hence he needs an undead form that he could use with alter self that could pass for a human.
Can vampires pass for humans? How about the necropolitans from LM that people often talk about?
EDIT: nevermind, I forgot about the no template part.

[Magicyop]

As I understand it, the guy is going to be that particular undead which, I understand, does NOT look like a human. He'd like to use alter self to do that, but the can spell only transform you into something with your own creature type. Hence he needs an undead form that he could use with alter self that could pass for a human.
Can vampires pass for humans? How about the necropolitans from LM that people often talk about?

I see.

No, he said no templated creatures, I was thinking Necropolitan too. So that also rules out vampire.Nevermind, you corrected yourself.
Spectral Lyrist would be a good choice(Also from LM) but is incorporeal. A Lich is EXACTLY what you want, except that it is a template. (I do not understand why you don't want templates, a monster can have more than one template you realize.)

[satorian]

Because Alter Self doesn't do templates.

[Magicyop]

Because Alter Self doesn't do templates.

Oh, it doesn't? Then I don't see why Spellstitched would work.

As I said before, just screw with the nightwalker's size. Make it large sized under normal conditions to allow it to become medium.

[OldFart]

If you're building a BBEG for an encounter, I'd either:
1) Reduce size of Nightwalker to Large via monster mod rules/GM fiat.
1a) use Wight or Ghoul for Alter Self + Hat of Disguise (well within treasure capacity for critter) to make them appear human. Yeah, your PCs may well see through Hat of Disguise, but anything they have to do so will most likely bust Alter Self as well.
OR
2) Hand-wave Alternate Form as a special spellstiched ability
OR

A Lich is EXACTLY what you want
3) Just make the BBEG a lich in the first place, which would probably be a lot simpler, and very doable within the CR 16 of a Nightwalker (w/o Spell-stitch).

[Caphi]

Why not just use disguise undead? It's only one level higher exactly the same level and lasts literally all day (24 hours). (ED: Disguise undead is level 2.)

[Seffbasilisk]

I'd recommend dipping a level of Warlock for the invocation 'Entropic Warding' at the least, to remove your smell.

[Edwin]

There's an amulet in some book that duplicates the features of alternate form indefinitely - with some restrictions I believe. It's not even that expensive, as far as I can remember.

Item Compendium or something like that, I think. :smallsmile:

[KillianHawkeye]

Okay, to clarify, my idea is a Nightwalker who has some way of turning into or disguising itself as a human so that it can move about in the daytime and take advantage of people who underestimate its strength. Basically, it walks into a village and starts busting stuff up. I'd like to use the Spellstitched template (sans the restriction on spell schools) to give it an SLA that it can use to accomplish this.

Ideally, alter self seems like a good spell to use because A) it has a much longer duration than polymorph and B) you keep your normal physical ability scores while using it. FYI, the Nightwalker has a 38 Strength. Unfortunately, the restrictions on alter self require the form selected to be of the same type (Undead), be corporeal (or at least the spell won't grant the incorporeal subtype), be no more than 5 HD, and it can't be a templated creature. Additionally, the adopted form must be within one size category of the original creature's, which means the Huge Nightwalker can't become Medium sized without some other effect in play.




If you're building a BBEG for an encounter, I'd either:
1) Reduce size of Nightwalker to Large via monster mod rules/GM fiat.
1a) use Wight or Ghoul for Alter Self + Hat of Disguise (well within treasure capacity for critter) to make them appear human. Yeah, your PCs may well see through Hat of Disguise, but anything they have to do so will most likely bust Alter Self as well.
OR
2) Hand-wave Alternate Form as a special spellstiched ability
OR
3) Just make the BBEG a lich in the first place, which would probably be a lot simpler, and very doable within the CR 16 of a Nightwalker (w/o Spell-stitch).

1) I'd rather not reduce the Nightwalker's size because this creature should be more badass than the standard version, and making it smaller doesn't really do that. Obviously, the players should eventually face it in its true form, or else there's no point in making it a Nightwalker in the first place.

2) That may be what I have to do, but I wanna make sure it's the only way.

3) A Lich is the wrong sort of enemy for this. It doesn't fit the concept at all. This is supposed to be a badass villain who goes around masquerading as a human so it can tear things up in melee, with the option of transforming into its gigantic native form when things get serious. Sure, it has some SLAs that are pretty good, but it's not really a major spellcaster.

Additionally, I've used a Lich before, but this concept came to me because I think Nightwalkers are awesome and I want to find a way to use one in a game (and have it last more than a single encounter by elevating it to BBEG status).


Why not just use disguise undead? It's only one level higher exactly the same level and lasts literally all day (24 hours). (ED: Disguise undead is level 2.)

What book is this spell from? I did a quick check of Libris Mortis, the PHB, PHB2, Complete Adventurer, Complete Arcane, Complete Mage, Complete Divine, and Complete Champion and couldn't find it.


There's an amulet in some book that duplicates the features of alternate form indefinitely - with some restrictions I believe. It's not even that expensive, as far as I can remember.

Item Compendium or something like that, I think. :smallsmile:

Sounds interesting. Does anybody know what it's called or where it's from exactly?



Also, does anybody know if there's a version of reduce person that works on Undead? Or an item or something that would work?

[JeminiZero]

Maybe give it one level in Psion-Egoist. Lose the bonus feat in exchange for the Change Shape (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a) class feature as changelings. It provides circumstance bonus which stacks with most other bonuses (including Hats of Disguise)

To change size, maybe give it a custom item that grants constant compression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/compression.htm). As a 1st level power, rounds per level power, such an item should cost: 1 x 1 x 2000 x 4 = 8000 gp.

[Lycanthromancer]

Maybe give it one level in Psion-Egoist. Lose the bonus feat in exchange for the Change Shape (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a) class feature as changelings. It provides circumstance bonus which stacks with most other bonuses (including Hats of Disguise)

To change size, maybe give it a custom item that grants constant compression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/compression.htm). As a 1st level power, rounds per level power, such an item should cost: 1 x 1 x 2000 x 4 = 8000 gp.I was about to suggest something similar.

Compression would work, as would metamorphosis (since polymorph only works on living creatures).

What about using a psychoactive skin of proteus (check the SRD) as a skin-graft (so the players can't get it)? Call it a skinwalker and it can use ML 7 metamorphosis at will, which is enough to get you any number of forms, including living ones. It'll alter your Strength score, but if you make it nice and high level, you can use Hyperconscious (3rd party sourcebook written by Bruce Cordell) for Persistent Power, and toss on strength of my enemy. So long as it sacrifices someone each morning (or every 2 days with Extend Power), it can have a +8 (or more) enhancement bonus to Strength at all times. Add to a mundanely disguised orc form (toss on a hat of disguise), and you'd have a 22 Strength as a Medium creature. It can return to its normal form (or any number of other forms) as a standard action, and it'll still have that bonus from strength of my enemy.

Of course, you can just have it shapeshifting all over the place once it decides to bust things up, so you can make it just about anything you want it to be.

[The Random NPC]

Disguise Undead seems to be in the Spell Compendium.

[KillianHawkeye]

Thanks for the compression and metamorphosis suggestions. I forgot that polymorph only affects living creatures. Looks like this might work after all.


Disguise Undead seems to be in the Spell Compendium.

Bah, I need to just start checking there first. :smallsigh:



Here's an auxilliary question: I've noticed that most of these shapeshifting spells and powers remove the original creature's Ex special attacks and special qualities. Does this include the Nightshade's Aversion to Daylight (Ex) weakness? Because that would just be a bonus.

[Flickerdart]

You could give it the Phrenic template and replace one of the many Psi-like abilities it gives with Compression.

[KillianHawkeye]

You could give it the Phrenic template and replace one of the many Psi-like abilities it gives with Compression.

Hmm, looks like I can dump Spellstitched and go full psionic with this one. Nice. :smallamused:

[Lycanthromancer]

Hmm, looks like I can dump Spellstitched and go full psionic with this one. Nice. :smallamused:Make it a psion/illithid slayer. That'll leave some interesting questions for the players to ask...


Here's an auxilliary question: I've noticed that most of these shapeshifting spells and powers remove the original creature's Ex special attacks and special qualities. Does this include the Nightshade's Aversion to Daylight (Ex) weakness? Because that would just be a bonus.It's an Ex special quality, so yes.

[KillianHawkeye]

Make it a psion/illithid slayer. That'll leave some interesting questions for the players to ask...

How's that? I won't be able to add many class levels to this guy since his CR (with Phrenic) is already 19. I was leaning toward adding some ToB since his existing HD should add to his IL and allow him to take some higher level maneuvers.

[Human Paragon 3]

How's that? I won't be able to add many class levels to this guy since his CR (with Phrenic) is already 19. I was leaning toward adding some ToB since his existing HD should add to his IL and allow him to take some higher level maneuvers.

You mean manuevers from the... shadow hand school?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

But seriously, use shadow hand manuevers. The teleport ones are especially cool.

[KillianHawkeye]

You mean manuevers from the... shadow hand school?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

But seriously, use shadow hand manuevers. The teleport ones are especially cool.

While that would certainly be thematically appropriate, I was leaning more towards Warblade than Swordsage, just out of personal preference.