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Archpaladin Zousha
2010-04-19, 04:07 PM
Having just fallen in love with Scion, I was hoping to make a character to use for Scion games should I join one based on my favorite mythical hero, Perseus. The thing is, it seems like building Perseus using Scion's rules would be pretty tricky, mainly because Perseus doesn't appear to have too much personality in the myths, and any power he had mainly came from the relics he had. There were a few issues I was wondering I could run by the Scion players of this board to see if making a Perseus clone would be viable.

The first thing I know is that the character would need to be a Scion of Zeus. That's why Perseus recieved the gifts he did. Two of the four main relics Perseus used in the myth also happen to be right in the Hero book: the Talaria, which grant the all-important Sky purview, and The Harpe. The Harpe is a bit problematic in that Chaos and War aren't purviews associated with Zeus though.

The other two relics are somewhat trickier. Perseus used the magic helmet Hades recieved during the war with the Titans, which makes its wearer invisible. In Scion terms, invisibility seems to be equated with the Darkness purview, and this actually fits with the helmet idea, since it's sometimes called a helmet of darkness or cap of darkness. The Norse Tarnhelm relic looks like a dead ringer for this particular artifact, and I don't think many storytellers would consider it a stretch to have a reskinned Tarnhelm. It's less a matter of wanting another pantheon's relic as much as it's another pantheon's relic matching one the original pantheon already had. It has similar problems to The Harpe though, in that Darkness is not a purview of Zeus.

Finally there's Athena's mirror shield. This relic I think is the most problematic. I've decided that I'm not going to claim it's the Aegis, mainly because the Aegis of myth was incredibly ill-defined. It's obviously an aspis, but I'm not sure how to replicate the mirror effect the shield had in the myth. I don't think Scion has a gaze attack mechanic like in D&D, so I don't know what to do. Also I'm not sure if the shield should grant purviews, and if it does, which ones. Justice seems like a good idea, since it's a purview that both the shield's owner and the scion's parent have access to, but I'm not sure where Justice would appear in the Perseus myth. Guardian might make sense too, since it's a shield, and Athena has Guardian as a purview, but Zeus doesn't, which would give it problems similar to the "Tarnhelm" and Harpe. Having both might also work, but would also have similar problems with not meshing with Zeus well.

Finally, once all these relics are assembled, the charater would have a glut of purviews, and I'm not certain which ones to focus on. Sky would obviously be the most important, to replicate the flight of the sandals, but I'd probably need to build Darkness in order to have the invisibility effects of the helmet. Also, I'm not sure if at some point a Gorgon head should come into the character's possession, since Perseus had to earn the right to use Medusa's head by killing her, and the other Gorgons, Stheno and Euryale are immortal, so killing them is not an option. Plus, I don't think Medusae in the book have the same petrifying powers.

Also there's the attributes of the character. As I said before, the relics are what made Perseus a hero. In terms of his own abilities, he was pretty average. This makes the task of selecting epic attributes an issue. I have some ideas, but they're problematic as well for reasons that I'll explain.

The primary battle we see Perseus involved in is against Medusa. The thing is that this fight doesn't rely on brute strength, because it's an ambush. Perseus uses his tools to get into position and makes one swift decapitation. He's only got one shot at it, and he has to make it count. In short, he's an assassin. Other encounters Perseus have before and after Medusa similarly rely on him reacting quickly, like when he snatches the Graeae's eye, and in the fights with Cetus and Polydectes' men by whipping out Medusa's head. This, to me, says that the character would have Epic Dexterity and Epic Wits, maybe with Epic Perception as well, allowing him to be quicker and deliver the fatal blow before his foe knows he's there. But Zeus' favored attributes are Epic Strength, Epic Charisma and Epic Manipulation. That makes things difficult once again.

As for Abilities, Zeus actually fits pretty well in most cases. He has Awareness, which would be important for sensing when the foe is near and when to strike. Integrity also helps Perseus because the whole reason he gets sent on his quest to kill Medusa is because he refused to let Polydectes marry his mother, and was willing to die to protect her. Politics and Command have some peripheral use, since after Perseus' adventures were over, he went on to found the city of Mycenae, and founded a strong dynasty that actually included several other famous Greeks, like Heracles, Agammemnon, etc. However, two other important abilities would be Melee and Stealth, so he can use that sword and can avoid detection by monsters, which again, aren't part of Zeus' lineup.

So the question I have is, can this idea work. Is it possible to build a scion of Zeus that matches Perseus as closely as possible, even though Zeus' favored stuff seems to almost clash with how Perseus overcomes his challenges in the myth?

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-04-19, 06:55 PM
Did I prattle on too long or something? :smallconfused:

Lapak
2010-04-19, 07:12 PM
I've only just started playing around with Scion mechanics, but from what I've been told you don't need to worry about matching Purviews with your parent - or even your Pantheon. In fact, the Storyteller I was discussing my proposed character with said that not only was there nothing mechanically against it, but that it made long-term arcs into (Demi)Godhood easier in some ways, as having a Purview mix that didn't match an existing deity in your pantheon makes it easier to fit a new god into place. (I was creating an Amatsukami Scion with the Justice purview, which none of the Amatsukami have, by way of a relic from one of the Loa. Anyway.)

So yes, it's certainly permissible to create a Scion that doesn't match up in all ways to their divine parent, by doing exactly what the mythical Perseus did: get Relics and purviews from other divinities. The helmet did belong to Hades, after all.

I agree that Wits and Dexterity match up well with Perseus - Epic Dex would also help with snatching the eye of the Graeae - but a little Epic Charisma wouldn't be wrong either.

What I'm not confident of is that you can fit all of that into a STARTING Scion. Some things do get slightly more expensive when they don't match your parent, and as you point out a lot of Purviews are needed to cover all the bases you're talking about. If I was doing it, I'd spend the points on the relics and a dot each of the purviews or so, with a splash of Epic Wits and Dex, and build up from there. Don't forget that Arete DOES fit right in with Perseus, while you're at it.

(And you only waited a couple of hours for a response; Scion doesn't seem to be the most-commented-on game around here, so that wasn't much time. :smallwink:)

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-04-19, 07:16 PM
Well, I wasn't intending on having all that stuff to start with. I was just wondering if it's possible to have all this stuff by Demigodhood, or at least Godhood.

Arete fits with any Greek scion. But I'm not sure which bonus to put it in. Stealth seems like the obvious choice.

I was just concerned people wouldn't see it because it was pushed down by other threads that are currently being discussed.

erikun
2010-04-19, 07:36 PM
Yeah, anything that isn't D&D doesn't get many comments. I personally am only vaguely familiar with Scion, so am no good with determining what gifts would be best.

On the other hand, what little I know about Perseus indicates that his tactics were more important than the specific gifts he received. Using the mirrored shield to spy on Medusa doesn't require it to be magical, just working knowledge that Medusa's gaze doesn't affect a seen reflection. Most of the feats you've mentioned (beheading Medusa, grabbing Graeae's eye) are less some specific ability and more getting in an advantageous position and spending Willpower to ensure the move worked. If anything, I'd give Perseus some dots in Monster Lore, or whatever the equilivant is, to reflect how he was able to determine a creature's weakness and use it to his advantage.

Er, I assume we're talking about the greek Perseus. The more recent Percy Jackson would likely be a fair bit different, although still quite canny.

Kylarra
2010-04-19, 07:45 PM
Reskinning existing relics is what you're supposed to do, and until a later part of the rules came out which had some more guidelines on crafting relics, pretty much all you could do as far as varying up relics beyond magical weapon/armor+1 or trinket of purview access. Note: there is one armor that only a completely insane ST would allow you to have, and that's the one victor has at the back of the book. The ability to reduce damage like that is insane. Do everyone a favor and forget it exists.

As mentioned earlier, but I'll reiterate, purviews not matching your godly parent is fine. You simply need a reason of some sort to have gotten it. Remember, relics are hard to come by in play, as even ones you find are most likely going to be returned to their patron pantheon. So get your relics needed in char creation.

Epic stats are simply what your godly parent is inclined towards. You are free to get whatever fits your concept, it simply costs more exp/bonus points. Note, again, that at creation during your choice of boons/epics, associated and not are irrelevant for your starting set.

tl;dr: Don't get caught up in associated traits. It doesn't make your character impossible to create. Also, don't get too concerned with matching myth exactly. Remember that a big portion of Scion is how things translate into a modern world or are not quite what the myths say.

Zanatos777
2010-04-19, 07:48 PM
The level 3 moon purview duplicates invisibility if four successes are scored. That is a 3 dot relic to duplicate. The mirrored shield can be duplicated by a magical shield which is difficult to destroy which has a mirrored side. Very simple relic.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-04-19, 08:24 PM
Yeah, but the Tarnhelm is a 2 dot relic that grants Darkness. Hades' Helmet is sometimes called a cap of darkness, so it makes sense. Shrouding everything in darkness that only you can see in is pretty much the same as invisibility, ennit? But wouldn't it be impossible to get the Harpe starting out anyway? That's a five-dot relic, and I was under the most powerful relic a scion could posess was a three-dot relic.

What kind of excuse would I have for having so many relics anyway? The character's backstory takes a cue from Horace Farrow's in the book, basically being a retelling of the original myth with slightly different costumes and sets. The reason Perseus was given all these gifts was so he'd be able to slay Medusa, and when the adventures were over, he returned everything he'd recieved to the gods that owned them. Unless I have an equally insurmountable task to complete, the other Olympians would need some kind of justification for virtually showering me with these gifts on a more permanent basis than they did with the first Perseus.

On that note, what's a good modern last name that sounds like it could be twisted into Eurymedon? His first name's obviously going to be Percy. There aren't other names that really sound like Perseus without stretching it. But according to Apollonius of Rhodes, Perseus actually had a last name:


"Perseus Eurymedon, for his mother gave him this name as well."

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-04-20, 08:46 AM
What virtues would work for this character, by the way? I'm thinking Intellect would be high on the list, since Perseus won by fighting smart, but I'm a bit concerned about Valor. With all due respect, Perseus fought kind of cowardly. He ambushed Medusa (granted that was the only way he could have won, but still not very valorous) and relied on Medusa's head to win his battles for him afterwards. Expression seems hard to do too, since Perseus wasn't an artist, and I'm not sure where Vengeance would go. Perseus certainly seems vengeful when he used the head on Polydectes, but that was to protect his mother. Polydectes hadn't actually hurt Perseus, unless you count sending Perseus off in the first place, which was more Perseus fault because he boasted he could get the head for him.

hewhosaysfish
2010-04-20, 12:59 PM
Unless I have an equally insurmountable task to complete, the other Olympians would need some kind of justification for virtually showering me with these gifts on a more permanent basis than they did with the first Perseus.

Your character doesn't have an insurmountable task ahead of him?! :smallconfused:

You fail at backstory! Try harder! :smallbiggrin:


Perseus certainly seems vengeful when he used the head on Polydectes, but that was to protect his mother. Polydectes hadn't actually hurt Perseus, unless you count sending Perseus off in the first place, which was more Perseus fault because he boasted he could get the head for him.

Does vengenace specifically have to be against someone who "hurt" you rather than someone who wronged you? Because kicking the ass of someone who threatened or insulted you, or who hurt, threatened or insulted your loved ones sounds pretty vengeful to me.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-04-20, 01:07 PM
But Medusa's sisters are immortal, while Medusa wasn't. Unless the books changed something, they're unstoppable even for a scion.

NeoVid
2010-04-20, 04:07 PM
What virtues would work for this character, by the way? I'm thinking Intellect would be high on the list, since Perseus won by fighting smart, but I'm a bit concerned about Valor.

Hrm... Valor is definitely a problem. You have to fail a Valor roll to be able to fight dirty, ambush people or retreat, so it doesn't fit. Vengeance would actually be more fitting by RAW, and it's another fitting virtue for the paladin types you prefer. I will tell you that Intellect and Expression are insanely good almost all the time.

Having a fair amount of experience with Scion, I should tell you that Purviews are stupidly expensive while also not being remotely as useful as Epic Attributes and Knacks. If there are any Purviews that are really central to the character, be sure to plan ahead enough to know for certain they're worth spending the XP on. This can also keep you from burning up too many dots of Birthrights for access to Purviews you won't use. Also, the Epic Dex/Wits/Cha setup seems pretty fitting.

Oh, and you should call the character Percy Whedon for the lulz.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-04-20, 04:49 PM
What's the reference? I know who Joss Whedon is, but don't know why having his last name would be funny.

I know that the domains I'd probably be focusing on the most would be Sky, to let me "fly" (as far as I can tell, the purview doesn't let you fly so much as "jump hella high") with the Talaria, and Darkness for the stealth component. Other than that, I really don't see much else in the Purviews that really screams "Perseus" to me. Also, I did some checking, and now that I know that Stheno and Euryale CAN be killed, I think I'm gonna try and convince my ST to have me gunning for at least one of them.

I think I can get away with the Shield not conferring purviews, since that relic basically has to be made from scratch. But I'm not sure how to translate "polished so bright it can be used as a mirror so you can aim your attack without looking directly at the gorgon" into game statistics.

The Harpe still confers some problems though. I don't think I'll really need the War or Chaos purviews, but I still want the sword.

EDIT: Actually, now that I've read a bit on the purviews, Chaos might actually have its uses, if only for the Eye of the Storm.

EDIT #2: I've taken a look at some other books, and I'm starting to think War actually might have something that can help me after all, specifically the Mortal Stroke boon. THAT'S something I could see Perseus doing!

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-04-20, 10:48 PM
Well, I tried to make a character sheet for the guy. How's this look?

Basic Information

Calling: Perseus Reborn
Pantheon: Dodekatheon
God: Zeus
Nature: Gallant

Attributes

Strength 3
Dexterity 3
Stamina 3

Charisma 3
Manipulation 2
Appearance 2

Perception 4
Intelligence 3
Wits 4

Abilities

Athletics 3
Awareness 3
Command 3
Empathy 3
Integrity 3
Investigation 3
Melee 3
Occult 3
Presence 3
Stealth 3

Advantages

Birthrights:

Talaria (Sky Purview) 1
Helm of Darkness (Darkness Purview, +1 Soak) 2
The Harpe 5 (Chaos Purview, War Purview, +3 Damage)
Athena’s Mirror Shield 1 (+1 DV)

Boons:

Sky 1 – Sky’s Grace
Sky 2 – Wind’s Freedom


Epic Attributes:

Epic Perception 1 – Subliminal Warning
Epic Wits 1 – Opening Gambit
Epic Dexterity 1 - Untouchable Opponent
Epic Stamina 1 - Self-Healing
Epic Stamina 2 - Damage Conversion
Epic Charisma 1 - Charmer
Epic Manipulation 1 - Stench of Guilt

Virtues:

Expression 2
Intellect 3
Valor 1
Vengeance 3

Legend 3
Willpower 7
Legend points 9
If you want to know what I spent my bonus points on, I used five of them to boost my Birthright to afford The Harpe, seven to boost my Legend to 3, two to boost my Willpower to 5 and one to get the Athena's Mirror Shield relic (which I still have no idea how to express in game terms).

I'll post his backstory when I have more time. I just want to know if this is kosher for a starting character.

The_Snark
2010-04-20, 11:25 PM
Your Virtues are lower than they ought to be—you start with 1 dot in all four for free, and I don't believe you can lower them further. That gives you Expression 2, Intellect 3, Valor 1, Vengeance 3, and (after accounting for your higher Virtues) Willpower 7.

As for the mirrored shield... Honestly, I'm not sure that needs to be a relic power. Scion doesn't have gaze attacks as a regular phenomenon; there's Euryale and Stheno, and maybe one Epic Appearance-based Knack that I can think of, and of course anything your ST brews up, but not really enough to warrant a specialized ability.

Besides, the shield didn't make Perseus immune to Medusa's gaze, it just gave him a way to get around it; he still had to successfully resist the instinct to look directly at his enemy. The Gorgon sisters' gaze can be avoided with a Wits+Awareness roll, and that actually seems like it corresponds pretty well to the original story. You were planning on taking Epic Wits anyway, and four dots will make you effectively immune (that is, you succeed no matter what you roll).

If you want to make the shield a relic, simply make it a 1-dot relic that gives +1 DV more than an ordinary shield would (as per the rules for trait enhancement on page 160; there's an Aztec relic shield in the Hero book that does this, if you want an example of how it works for a shield). That it is polished and shiny is merely descriptive material; you could use a hand mirror for the same purpose, if you were willing to give up mythological accuracy (and any hope of looking cool while you did it).

Aside from that, though, looks pretty good.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-04-20, 11:36 PM
Are my epic attributes and boons right? For some reason I think I have one too many.

Should I meet Stheno or Euryale in battle, I plan on Aegisizing my shield with the head.

The_Snark
2010-04-20, 11:45 PM
Unfortunately, you're right—you've got 11 dots in total, and you should only have 10... I'd recommend dropping the 2nd dot of either Epic Wits or Epic Perception, or else one of the 1-dot Boons.

Do note that you don't have to buy all the boons in a given Purview, and that none of them have any prerequisites (except for access to the Purview in general). You could have Sky 2 without having Sky 1, for example, or Darkness 3 (once you reach higher Legend) without any of the preceding Boons. If there were any Boons you didn't really want but were taking as prerequisites, you could drop those. If not, just pick your least favorite, I guess—it won't take much experience to buy it back in play.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-04-20, 11:52 PM
I'd prefer to drop the Darkness 2, but I don't know where the points would go for it.

Kylarra
2010-04-21, 12:01 AM
It is a bit metagame-y, but grabbing a dot in all the epic attributes [that you plan on ever taking dots in] at char creation will save you XP in the long run.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-04-21, 12:05 AM
Okay, fix'd.

I forgot I'd dropped Darkness 2, so I dropped War instead.

I'm not sure what Epic Attributes I'd like to boost in the long run.

Kylarra
2010-04-21, 12:23 AM
hint:physical ones.

http://wiki.white-wolf.com/whitewolf/index.php?title=Character_Generation_in_Scion:_Her o

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-04-21, 12:31 AM
So where would I get the points to do that? What would I drop to put these points in?

Kylarra
2010-04-21, 12:40 AM
Take it out of boons. Numerically, it costs twice as much XP to buy a new epic attribute as it does to buy a one dot boon, so if at all possible, get your epic attributes at char creation where they are equivalently priced.

You'll definitely want some epic sta and dex. I once had a hilarious character who I dubbed "captain america" who started off with 1 dot in each epic attribute.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-04-21, 12:57 PM
Take it out of boons. Numerically, it costs twice as much XP to buy a new epic attribute as it does to buy a one dot boon, so if at all possible, get your epic attributes at char creation where they are equivalently priced.

You'll definitely want some epic sta and dex. I once had a hilarious character who I dubbed "captain america" who started off with 1 dot in each epic attribute.

What necessarily makes the epic Attributes so important? As I said in the OP, Perseus was pretty average in terms of raw power. He got all his power from the toys the gods gave him. The game is freeform, we're just using the character creation system to define our characters better and establish our limits. And I really wanted to be able to fly.

Kylarra
2010-04-21, 01:49 PM
What necessarily makes the epic Attributes so important? As I said in the OP, Perseus was pretty average in terms of raw power. He got all his power from the toys the gods gave him. The game is freeform, we're just using the character creation system to define our characters better and establish our limits. And I really wanted to be able to fly.Knacks and the fact that they are always on so you'll never botch an ability roll involving one of your epic attributes, assuming you have at least one dot in that ability.

If you're going in freeform, then the relative costs don't matter so much, but regardless, you'll want to get epic sta for damage conversion or self healing.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-04-21, 02:00 PM
I suppose I can drop the Chaos and Darkness stuff. I mean, being able to see in the dark isn't going to be as useful until I can control the darkness to hide. I can also drop some of the extra Perception and Wits stuff, since I could replace them easily. How's he look now? Should I repost his new stuff in this post?

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-04-21, 05:23 PM
Okay, I've dropped all my boons except for the Sky ones and the Epic Attributes higher than one. Now I have Epic Attributes in all stats except Strength, Appearance, and Intelligence, which are the weakest links on this guy anyway. I now have Epic Stamina 1 and 2, with Fast Healing and Damage Conversion, as well as Charmer and Stench of Guilt.

How solid does this look? I'm tempted to follow that idea you had of having all epic attributes so I never miss a roll on anything, but I really REALLY wanna fly. I also have the crude beginnings of his story. Should I post them for critique?