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Alvrick
2010-04-20, 12:19 AM
I'm a big fan of half-dragons. beyond the general fact that they are draconic creatures, they have excellent stats bonuses for essentially no penalties unless you're relying on your type for something.

However, many have expressed the opinion that half-dragons aren't all that great, particularly due to their +3 LA.

What are the playground's thoughts on this template, both for opposition against the party and a character within it?

arguskos
2010-04-20, 12:21 AM
Not worth LA +3. This has been well and conclusively shown a few different times. Compare a (Full BAB Class Combo Here) Half-Dragon to a (Full BAB Class Combo Here) with 3 more levels. The latter will likely perform better in all areas than that Half-Dragon.

Mando Knight
2010-04-20, 12:22 AM
I believe the general consensus is as follows:

Problem #1: LA.
Problem #2: Not everyone likes to think about half-dragons.
Problem #3: LA.

Gralamin
2010-04-20, 12:25 AM
The solution to Half-Dragon is Dragonborn.

IonDragon
2010-04-20, 12:26 AM
Awesome, and cool, but totally not worth it. Sometimes I do it anyway, but mostly when it's a gestalt character with LA only on one side.

Jon_Dahl
2010-04-20, 12:35 AM
Generally half-dragons die pretty fast unless they are carefully protected...

So you are born as half-dragon human or elf or some other core race. When you reach your first level, you are effectively 4th-level character. So you really have to be extremely patient and careful to gain 10.000 XP to reach 2nd-level, while have maybe 5 hp if you are a wizard... Even with 15 hp it's going to hard. You can deal out lot of damage with your breath weapon, but you lose the initiative you can easily die against almost any opponent.

Alvrick
2010-04-20, 12:39 AM
Not worth LA +3. This has been well and conclusively shown a few different times. Compare a (Full BAB Class Combo Here) Half-Dragon to a (Full BAB Class Combo Here) with 3 more levels. The latter will likely perform better in all areas than that Half-Dragon.

I have to ask, how? by capitalizng on your strengths (strength and consitution) you get even more accomplished than most characters your level. you have +2 con and +8 strength, not to mention the mental bonuses. +8 strength gives you a +4 mod to your attacks, which more than makes up for the lost BAB, even if you can't pour it into Power attack. the enhanced intelligence gives you extra skill points, and the constitution... well, that one is obvious. plus, you are never unarmed as the only way your enemies could do that is but cutting off your hands and pulling out your teeth, and the natural armor is awesome too, giving you a +4, which is the equivalent of a chain shirt, which most lighter characters like rangers and rogues will wear full stop. and that's on top of your other armor, giving you some wicked AC if you combine it with magical full-plate and an enhanced tower shield

on top of that, half-dragons have an area effect straight from the get-go, and once they reach 6 HD, they can use it as many times as they like if they take the Dragon Breath feat, and metabreath feats can enhance it even further for a relatively small sacrifice - waiting a little bit longer to use it again

on top of this, most DMs see nothing wrong with dropping your breath weapon in order to lower your LA to +2. if you can't swing this, pump the breath weapon up, but you lose nothing by focusing more on your fighting feats than breath related ones, and you get rid of a point of LA in the process
Generally half-dragons die pretty fast unless they are carefully protected...

So you are born as half-dragon human or elf or some other core race. When you reach your first level, you are effectively 4th-level character. So you really have to be extremely patient and careful to gain 10.000 XP to reach 2nd-level, while have maybe 5 hp if you are a wizard... Even with 15 hp it's going to hard. You can deal out lot of damage with your breath weapon, but you lose the initiative you can easily die against almost any opponent.
that's why you focus on a high AC and depend on your party members until you can survive fights easier. built well, you can have even more HP than your allies at even relatively low levels

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-04-20, 12:43 AM
Not. I mean, got nothing against them, but I've never found dragons that interesting truth be told.

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-20, 12:47 AM
Here's a thought...

Powerful Build says: "The physical stature of a goliath lets him function in many ways as if he were one size category larger."

Does that mean a Goliath Half-Dragon would qualify for Wings? :smallbiggrin:

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-04-20, 12:47 AM
+1 for Dragonborn of Bahamut. All the taste of half dragon, with none of the cLAories. Typo? You decide.

Gralamin
2010-04-20, 12:49 AM
I have to ask, how? by capitalizng on your strengths (strength and consitution) you get even more accomplished than most characters your level. you have +2 con and +8 strength, not to mention the mental bonuses. +8 strength gives you a +4 mod to your attacks, which more than makes up for the lost BAB, even if you can't pour it into Power attack.
Take a two-handed weapon, and a base strength of 18. Normal Fighter swings at + 4 (Strength) + 6 (BAB) + 1 (Mwk) = +11. You swing at +8 (Strength) + 3 (BAB) + 1 (Mwk) = +12. When they hit, they can hit for between +6 to +18 (Depending on Power attack). When you hit, you can hit for between +12 and +18.
At the particular point of level 6, you are doing fairly well, but this doesn't hold up.


the enhanced intelligence gives you extra skill points, and the constitution... well, that one is obvious.
Not true. Say a base Con of 14. Normal fighter has floor(12+7.5*5) = 49 HP. You have: floor(13+8.5*3) = 38 HP. You are actually rather far behind in HP.


plus, you are never unarmed as the only way your enemies could do that is but cutting off your hands and pulling out your teeth, and the natural armor is awesome too, giving you a +4, which is the equivalent of a chain shirt, which most lighter characters like rangers and rogues will wear full stop. and that's on top of your other armor, giving you some wicked AC if you combine it with magical full-plate and an enhanced tower shield
The Natural AC does help, The natural weapons can be nice, depending on build.


on top of that, half-dragons have an area effect straight from the get-go, and once they reach 6 HD, they can use it as many times as they like if they take the Dragon Breath feat, and metabreath feats can enhance it even further for a relatively small sacrifice - waiting a little bit longer to use it again
You cannot take that until ECL 9 though, and by the time you really get it going, it won't be that useful. Plus, I'm not sure which feat you are talking about, but if it grants a breath weapon IT DOES NOT USE THE HALF-DRAGON BREATH WEAPON.


on top of this, most DMs see nothing wrong with dropping your breath weapon in order to lower your LA to +2. if you can't swing this, pump the breath weapon up, but you lose nothing by focusing more on your fighting feats than breath related ones, and you get rid of a point of LA in the process
Not RAW, doesn't matter. And you do still lose a lot.

In addition to everything I said, the other fighter will likely already be in a PRC, will likely have pounce from Lion Totem Barbarian, etc. You are VERY far behind.

Temotei
2010-04-20, 12:50 AM
Note that +2 Con is nothing compared to three hit dice--especially in martial classes (d8 - d12, usually d10 (5.5 average)).

Also note that Intelligence boosting is nothing compared to the skill points you get from getting class levels.

Those are just the little notes. I'll let the others crush the above arguments. :smallamused:

Ho! Ninja'd.

Thrawn183
2010-04-20, 12:52 AM
The BAB vs. strength argument ignores the most important part: feats. Not only do you have one less feat from having 3 less HD, the feats you have access to just aren't as good.

Remember, when your half-dragon is hitting character level 9, the humanoid melee is hitting 12 and picking up Robilar's Gambit. When your half-dragon is hitting character level 15, the fighter is getting weapon supremacy.

Don't get me wrong, I love half-dragons. Especially half-dragon centaurs, but strictly superior to other choices they are not.

Alvrick
2010-04-20, 12:53 AM
You cannot take that until ECL 9 though, and by the time you really get it going, it won't be that useful. Plus, I'm not sure which feat you are talking about, but if it grants a breath weapon IT DOES NOT USE THE HALF-DRAGON BREATH WEAPON.

I concede the other points, as they are generally mathematical, but I'm sorry, I don't think I understand what you mean. having the dragonblood subtype and a breath weapon with limited uses per day is a requirement of the feat. it essentially just gives you more uses, it doesn't change the breath weapon

Pluto
2010-04-20, 01:07 AM
the enhanced intelligence gives you extra skill points, and the constitution... well, that one is obvious.
That's actually the one that really screws half-dragons at low levels.

Assuming a melee type (because that's the archetype that puts their abilities to some use):

At low levels:
Half-Dragons have to ride maybe 16 HP to survive until ECL 5.
They have to ride maybe 28 HP until ECL 6.
One hit from a level-appropriate opponent will flat-out kill them.

Their saves are rubbish.
Their skills are inexistant.
Their breath weapons are negligible.

At high levels:
Polymorph is a part of the game.
Suddenly racial selection doesn't matter.
But the LA still does.




As you attest, they aren't unplayable. They're just weaker than the base melee classes.

Dragonborn (RotD), Dragonfire Adept (DM) or Totemist levels (MoI, especially with DM soulmelds) can give you the same sort of character, but without the LA problems.

Gralamin
2010-04-20, 01:10 AM
I concede the other points, as they are generally mathematical, but I'm sorry, I don't think I understand what you mean. having the dragonblood subtype and a breath weapon with limited uses per day is a requirement of the feat. it essentially just gives you more uses, it doesn't change the breath weapon

As I noted: I don't know which feat you are talking about, so I was making a general assumption. If you give a source, I will give you a better, more Succinct argument.

Alvrick
2010-04-20, 01:10 AM
Regarding how everybody keeps telling me that half-dragons are crap for optimization, I've started considering other options

what about a half-ogre, then? are they as bad as the half-dragon?


As I noted: I don't know which feat you are talking about, so I was making a general assumption. If you give a source, I will give you a better, more Succinct argument.

source is Races of the Dragon

arguskos
2010-04-20, 01:15 AM
I concede the other points, as they are generally mathematical, but I'm sorry, I don't think I understand what you mean. having the dragonblood subtype and a breath weapon with limited uses per day is a requirement of the feat. it essentially just gives you more uses, it doesn't change the breath weapon
Uh... no? The actual requirements of Draconic Breath are the Draconic Heritage feat and sorcerer level 1st, and it doesn't give you more uses, it lets you sacrifice arcane spell slots to create a supernatural breath weapon based on the level of the slot sacrificed.

Alvrick
2010-04-20, 01:16 AM
Uh... no? The actual requirements of Draconic Breath are the Draconic Heritage feat and sorcerer level 1st, and it doesn't give you more uses, it lets you sacrifice arcane spell slots to create a supernatural breath weapon based on the level of the slot sacrificed.

DRAGON BREATH not DRACONIC BREATH. it's under general feats

arguskos
2010-04-20, 01:18 AM
DRAGON BREATH not DRACONIC BREATH. it's under general feats
...ah. Clearer. Also, dude, was a misread, no need to shout. :smallyuk:

Gralamin
2010-04-20, 01:19 AM
Regarding how everybody keeps telling me that half-dragons are crap for optimization, I've started considering other options

what about a half-ogre, then? are they as bad as the half-dragon?



source is Races of the Dragon

Half Ogre, if its the thing I'm thinking of, is good because you get the Size increases IN ADDITION to everything else noted.

---
Dragon Breath is, indeed a very good feat. However, you get it at around level 9, and your Breath weapon is always going to be dealing 6d8 damage without more feats.
On the bright side, your breath weapon is better then a Dragonborns until ECL 18.
On the bad side, A Dragonborn and a Dragonfire adept (Or a Dragonborn Dragonfire Adept) will of been able to do this since level 1, Will of accumulated more Meta Breath feats, and in the case of a Dragonfire Adept, will soon have the ability to massively outclass you with its powerful, versatile breath.
Not only that, to make it really worth doing you have to put a lot of your feats into your breath weapon - Which usually will cost you whatever other advantages you may of had.

Divide by Zero
2010-04-20, 01:21 AM
...ah. Clearer. Also, dude, was a misread, no need to shout. :smallyuk:

Everyone knows caps lock isn't for shouting anymore. It's CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL.

Draz74
2010-04-20, 01:22 AM
As I noted: I don't know which feat you are talking about, so I was making a general assumption. If you give a source, I will give you a better, more Succinct argument.

He's talking about the feat "Dragon Breath" from Races of the Dragon, which is specifically for Half-Dragons. It is simultaneously the biggest boost and biggest nerf the Half-Dragon template has ever gotten:

Biggest boost, because it does indeed make their breath weapon 100x more useful.

Biggest nerf, because their breath weapon still sucks (terrible damage), and now you'll be tempted to actually try to use it productively. :smallwink:

Dragon Breath and Entangling Exhalation, ok, now the breath weapon is starting to be useful ... but you'd be much better off taking 3 levels of Dragonfire Adept and spending one feat, instead of having +3 LA and spending two feats.

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-20, 01:24 AM
what about a half-ogre, then? are they as bad as the half-dragon?

With a Reach Weapon (Spiked Chain, or Rope Dart from Dragon Magazine... reach weapon for Monks!), Combat Reflexes, Large and In Charge (Draconomicon), Standstill (Expanded Psionics), Improved Trip... perhaps levels in Crusader with a two level dip in Fighter for some of the feats.

A Half-Ogre makes an excellent battle-field control maniac.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-20, 01:24 AM
I have to ask, how? by capitalizng on your strengths (strength and consitution) you get even more accomplished than most characters your level. you have +2 con and +8 strength, not to mention the mental bonuses. +8 strength gives you a +4 mod to your attacks, which more than makes up for the lost BAB, even if you can't pour it into Power attack. the enhanced intelligence gives you extra skill points, and the constitution... well, that one is obvious.

+2 Con= +1 HP/Level. Those three levels you are giving up? All three of those give you a minimum of 1d4+Con/level. You're losing out.

That +8 Str? Doesn't qualify you for PrCs with a BAB requirement (which most melee characters need) or feats with the same requirements.

That Int bonus? An LA 0 race gives it. An LA 1 race gives it (and that race sucks).


plus, you are never unarmed as the only way your enemies could do that is but cutting off your hands and pulling out your teeth, and the natural armor is awesome too, giving you a +4, which is the equivalent of a chain shirt, which most lighter characters like rangers and rogues will wear full stop. and that's on top of your other armor, giving you some wicked AC if you combine it with magical full-plate and an enhanced tower shield

Kobolds get a AC bonus comparable to Half-Dragons. +3 for an LA 0 Race VS +4 for an LA 3 race.

And the Natural Weapons? Anyone can get those with a feat. Or not, as it's really very rare to be weapon-less unless your DM is forcing it on you or you made a major mistake.


And for those 3 levels I lost, I could take two levels in Totemist to get everything Half-Dragon offers and then some.


on top of that, half-dragons have an area effect straight from the get-go, and once they reach 6 HD, they can use it as many times as they like if they take the Dragon Breath feat, and metabreath feats can enhance it even further for a relatively small sacrifice - waiting a little bit longer to use it again

Cool, you have an AoE 1/day that can't be used until you are at least 4th level, and can't be used more than 1/day until you are at least 9th level.



Dragonfire Adepts do the same thing, faster. Totemists have Breath Weapons that kill things starting at level 2, and spellcasters fraggin sneeze AoE effects better than your breath weapon.


on top of this, most DMs see nothing wrong with dropping your breath weapon in order to lower your LA to +2. if you can't swing this, pump the breath weapon up, but you lose nothing by focusing more on your fighting feats than breath related ones, and you get rid of a point of LA in the process

Still not worth it. And House Ruling something to make it playable doesn't mean it is worth taking as written.


that's why you focus on a high AC and depend on your party members until you can survive fights easier. built well, you can have even more HP than your allies at even relatively low levels

1: Focusing on your AC is worthless. Enemy attack bonuses scale faster, and your Touch AC will suck.
2: Focusing on your AC is a GP sink. You'll end up losing out on damage if you are a frontliner.
3: I just proved that the HP you gain from Half-Dragon isn't worth 3 levels. It's actually worse than taking those three levels in Commoner.


Level Adjustments above 1 need to be very powerful to make up for what you lose. Class features are considerably better than stat bonuses.


what about a half-ogre, then? are they as bad as the half-dragon?

Savage Species version: Yes. By miles. But not for a caster.
Races of Destiny version: Kinda. Not for a Caster though.

Doc Roc
2010-04-20, 01:38 AM
I throw my weight behind Sinfire.

I think you should consider Dragonborn or the draconic template, which is great if you're allowed to buy it off.

If you really want to be a dragon-spawn, I recommend the white dragonspawn template... ;)

Alvrick
2010-04-20, 01:43 AM
alrighty then. I guess I'll be playing a half-ogre for my next melee build. combat control is a wonderful thing.

(For note, I'll be playing with the races of destiny one. My group widely views Savage Species as cheese until proven otherwise)

Doc Roc
2010-04-20, 01:45 AM
Well, let me lay a proposition in front of you:

War-forged can be dragonborn.

Yes, you can build mecha-godzilla.

Is this optimal? No, not really.
Is it hilariously awesome? God yes.
Can it have the excellent Dark template? Yes.

Alvrick
2010-04-20, 01:47 AM
Well, let me lay a proposition in front of you:

War-forged can be dragonborn.

Yes, you can build mecha-godzilla.

Is this optimal? Probably not.
Is it hilariously awesome? God yes.

sorry, but I believe a dragonborn has to start off as a humanoid. awesome Idea though.

... I wonder if warforged count as living corporeal creatures? then you you could put half-dragon/fiend/celestial on it and have it be perfectly legit

Doc Roc
2010-04-20, 01:52 AM
Dragonborn is legit. It was clarified a while ago by WotC.

Dragonborn, for reference, are found in Races of the Dragon. Shocking, I know.

Shalist
2010-04-20, 01:53 AM
...but I've never found dragons that interesting truth be told.

*tries to kill Vorpal Tribble with his mind*

(let me know how that goes, mmm 'k?)

On a side note, You should totally find some feat or PRC or whatever that gives you the dragon's elemental subtype, 'cause it would totally rock if a ECL 1 cleric could just turn, command, or vaporize your low-HD half-dragon :P

Alvrick
2010-04-20, 01:56 AM
*tries to kill Vorpal Tribble with his mind*

(let me know how that goes, mmm 'k?)

On a side note, You should totally find some feat or PRC or whatever that gives you the dragon's elemental subtype, 'cause it would totally rock if a ECL 1 cleric could just turn, command, or vaporize your low-HD half-dragon :P

heh, yeah. because nothing says awesome character like someone three levels lower than you kicking your tail to the curb

Doc Roc
2010-04-20, 01:59 AM
Okay, so I just checked, and it looks like you could definitely make an argument that a dragonborn warforged could take the feral template. While the sidebar says you merely gain the dragonblood subtype, the core text says that dragonborn are humanoid(dragonblooded) in addition to any racial types they had before. I'll check errata, but I think this still holds.

Input, anyone?

Alvrick
2010-04-20, 02:01 AM
Okay, so I just checked, and it looks like you could definitely make an argument that a dragonborn warforged could take the feral template.

so you have an armor plated furry thing with scales, a breath weapon, and claws like longswords that heals itself whenever you do damage to it? Insane.

Doc Roc
2010-04-20, 02:01 AM
Yep.

Aren't you proud?
It also has devastatingly good stats.

Runestar
2010-04-20, 02:09 AM
It is one of those templates I wouldn't mind acquiring at mid-higher lvs, once I have a few class lvs under my belt. By this time, I have enough hp so I don't keel over the moment someone so much as breathes on me, as well as decent saves and the like.

Take fighter for instance. By 12th lv, I would pretty much have the key feats I want, so instead of taking more lvs in fighter, I don't mind taking half-dragon. +8str means +4to-hit/+6 damage with 2-handed weapons, which outweighs the +3bab from a class (especially at lv16, when you already get your 4th attack).

Natural weapons are kinda moot, though a free bite attack is always welcome. Immunity to paralysis/sleep is kinda neat though, since these tend to target your weak will save (like mass hold monster).

All in all, I think it borders on the weak side for a LA+3. More like LA2.5. Strip away some minor benefits and it should make for a decent LA+2 template.

Doc Roc
2010-04-20, 02:24 AM
I would consider it weak-ish for LA +2.

Thurbane
2010-04-20, 02:45 AM
IWhat are the playground's thoughts on this template, both for opposition against the party and a character within it?
Since everyone seems to be fixated on LA and ignoring this part, let me touch on this....

At CR +2, this can be a pretty effective template to use on large creatures with relatively low CR but a lot of HD. For a melee based large monster it gets:

Flight (can be a huge advantage, especially at lower levels)
Boost to HD size (unless it is Dragon type already) i.e. +1 HP/level, equivalent of the Improved Toughness feat.
Huge boost to skill points (unless it is Outsider or Fey)
Boost to natural AC
Claw/claw/bite (handy for giants and such - they can power attack with a two-handed weapon and get a secondary bite attack for "free". Also handy if the party is into disarming)
Breath weapon (that can be augmented with feats as outlined above)
Immunities (paralysis, sleep and energy type. The half-red dragon troll is always fun, especially if it chugs a potion of acid resistance)
Ability boosts (what melee monster doesn't want +8 STR?)

...and while CR +2 is hefty, it can almost be worth it for flight alone.

TheCountAlucard
2010-04-20, 02:53 AM
Amen to that, Thurbane! In a previous game, the PCs had a recurring villain who was a half-dragon half-ogre wielding a hand-and-a-half sword. They beat him down enough times, but they never actually finished the job. :smallamused:

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-20, 06:13 AM
Well, my favorite use of the template has been subtracting it twice from a normal dragon to create a perfectly generic monster.

That said, given that by strict reading the capstone half dragon template stacks with the bonuses granted by dragon disciple, it can actually be decent if you get it from the PrC.

Touchy
2010-04-20, 06:18 AM
I play in an open world-like structure.

We have three half-dragons, and a paladin 9/sorc 1/Dragon Discipline X, he's currently on his way of becoming a half-dragon.

And I'm a dragonwrought desert kobold(Cheesy but I wanted a character that wasn't socially retarded and could make a reasonable decision.)

We have too many dragons. Infact, the main town is called DRAGONPORT.
So they aren't optimal or anything, but if you like the flavor play it.

Tytalus
2010-04-20, 06:56 AM
Take a two-handed weapon, and a base strength of 18. Normal Fighter swings at + 4 (Strength) + 6 (BAB) + 1 (Mwk) = +11. You swing at +8 (Strength) + 3 (BAB) + 1 (Mwk) = +12. When they hit, they can hit for between +6 to +18 (Depending on Power attack). When you hit, you can hit for between +12 and +18.
At the particular point of level 6, you are doing fairly well, but this doesn't hold up.


This comparison misses a few points. The conclusion (an extra +1 to hit and more damage) holds throughout the levels.

The differences are, however, iterative attacks: you get them three levels later. In the level 6 example, the regular fighter already attacks twice per round, while you are still limited to one attack. Overall, 9 out of 17 playable levels from 4-20, you are one attack behind (more than 50%).

The slight edge you have in terms of to-hit and damage are largely compensated through feats. If comparing a straight fighter to a half-dragon fighter, for example, the weapon focus / weapon spec. chain of feats would do that.



Not true. Say a base Con of 14. Normal fighter has floor(12+7.5*5) = 49 HP. You have: floor(13+8.5*3) = 38 HP. You are actually rather far behind in HP.


Actually, that's not correct. At ECL 6 the half-dragon would only have 3, not 4 HD, which would be (13+8.5*2) = 30 HP. The difference is also considerably bigger.

By level 20 it looks better. The extra CON nets you +17 HP compared to three hit dice a regular character would get (each with a base CON bonus). Assuming a fighter with a (low!) CON of 18 at ECL 20, the normal guy would have ~28 HP to show for the 3 levels compared to your 17. You are still behind, but not so much any more. If you assume a base CON of 24 at ECL 20, it would be 37 vs. your 17. Obviously, the higher the ECL and the lower the base CON, the better it looks for the half-dragon.



That Int bonus? An LA 0 race gives it. An LA 1 race gives it (and that race sucks).

...

Kobolds get a AC bonus comparable to Half-Dragons. +3 for an LA 0 Race VS +4 for an LA 3 race.

...

Etc.


It's not a fair comparison to list a set of mutually exclusive options that each only have one advantage over the idea being discussed. I.e., it says nothing about half-dragons as a whole. Such an approach might be useful is someone would take the template just to get the INT bonus or to get the AC bonus, but that seems hardly realistic.


He's talking about the feat "Dragon Breath" from Races of the Dragon, which is specifically for Half-Dragons. It is simultaneously the biggest boost and biggest nerf the Half-Dragon template has ever gotten:

Biggest boost, because it does indeed make their breath weapon 100x more useful.

Biggest nerf, because their breath weapon still sucks (terrible damage), and now you'll be tempted to actually try to use it productively. :smallwink:

Dragon Breath and Entangling Exhalation, ok, now the breath weapon is starting to be useful ... but you'd be much better off taking 3 levels of Dragonfire Adept and spending one feat, instead of having +3 LA and spending two feats.

Sadly, it doesn't fix the most fundamental problem of the half-dragon's breath weapon: the DC. Since it's keyed off of racial HD, it doesn't scale for PCs and usually boils down to 10+CON, which is just sub-par.

The only real option is Entangling Exhalation, but that does work better on specialized builds, too.

Aharon
2010-04-20, 07:06 AM
@TML
That's a hilarious reading of the Dragon Disciple. I never noted it can be interpreted this way.

Kris Strife
2010-04-20, 07:18 AM
That said, given that by strict reading the capstone half dragon template stacks with the bonuses granted by dragon disciple, it can actually be decent if you get it from the PrC.

Except for 10 dead (from a casting point of view) levels. :smallyuk: However, I think Races of The Dragon has a 5 level Melee PrC that qualifies you for Dragon-Disciple. It gives you the draconic template, which I think you keep for an extra +2 to Str, Con and Int and +1 to AC. :smallamused:

Edit: What does the playground think of the Pathfinder half Dragon? Wings at all sizes with flight speed of double your land (average maneuverability), 4 more points to con, requires Racial Hit Die to get a breath weapon (1d6 per racial hit die) for an LA of +2.

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-20, 10:15 PM
Except for 10 dead (from a casting point of view) levels. :smallyuk:


Eh, be a barbarian or something with the magical training feat. Actually, pick up precocious apprentice as well while you're at it. Seven castings of a second level spell isn't particularly good, but can add a bit of flexibility if you pick the right one.

AslanCross
2010-04-21, 01:27 AM
Half-Dragon is great for monsters. PCs, unfortunately not. The inherent difficulty in making half-dragon PCs is probably the reason WOTC came up with the dragonborn.

Escheton
2010-04-21, 02:46 AM
blah blah blah, we are so cheesy
halfdragon is so much worse than that one combo everyone uses that can't be roleplayed with class at all blah blah blah

halfdragon
lvl 1 warblade
lvl 2 sorc
lvl 3 half dragon paragon
lvl 4 half dragon paragon
lvl 5 half dragon paragon

and from there just take sorc and warblade here and there
get jade phoenix mage if you feel frisky.

Not great, still good, lotsa fun

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-21, 11:40 AM
blah blah blah, we are so cheesy
halfdragon is so much worse than that one combo everyone uses that can't be roleplayed with class at all blah blah blah

halfdragon
lvl 1 warblade
lvl 2 sorc
lvl 3 half dragon paragon
lvl 4 half dragon paragon
lvl 5 half dragon paragon

and from there just take sorc and warblade here and there
get jade phoenix mage if you feel frisky.

Not great, still good, lotsa fun

Good? You've sacrificed 5 levels of casting by level 8, and no less than 3 levels of Warblade. You don't have level-appropriate abilities worth a ****, and you are suggesting entering a Gish class that costs you two more CLs and doesn't synergize with Warblade at all (and using Sorcerer no less).

I'm sorry, but I don't feel like playing a character who's most useful class features are 7 fraggin levels behind my party, and who's second best abilities rely on being up front when I'm missing 3 levels worth of Hit Dice.

Tytalus
2010-04-21, 11:54 AM
Good? You've sacrificed 5 levels of casting by level 8, and no less than 3 levels of Warblade. You don't have level-appropriate abilities worth a ****, and you are suggesting entering a Gish class that costs you two more CLs and doesn't synergize with Warblade at all (and using Sorcerer no less).


It's actually worse than that. H-D paragon only progresses caster level, not spell access, so at ECL8 this guy is still casting first level spells (and not a lot of them). In fact, he doesn't even qualify for JPM for a while (needs 2nd level spells) unless he has Precocious Apprentice.

The nice D12 hit die aside, this paragon class is exceptionally poor: +1 NA and the breath weapon 3/day aren't worth giving up spellcasting or initiator progression for - especially when you can pick a simple feat at ECL9 that grants you basically unlimited breaths/day.

At ECL8 you could already be two levels into JPM if you wanted, either with 6 levels of spellcasting or with solid maneuvers.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-21, 11:57 AM
It's actually worse than that. H-D paragon only progresses caster level, not spell access, so at ECL8 this guy is still casting first level spells (and not a lot of them). In fact, he doesn't even qualify for JPM for a while (needs 2nd level spells) unless he has Precocious Apprentice.

At ECL8 you could already be two levels into JPM if you wanted, either with 6 levels of spellcasting or with solid maneuvers.

That's so horrible it makes me want to cry.

Prime32
2010-04-21, 12:05 PM
See the Tier systems for templates (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7044.0).

Half-dragon improves if you have racial HD since those all become Dragon HD, but if you have racial HD you're likely weak anyway.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-21, 12:08 PM
See the Tier systems for templates (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7044.0).

Half-dragon improves if you have racial HD since those all become Dragon HD, but if you have racial HD you're likely weak anyway.

No, Half-Dragon improves your racial HD by one step (from d6 to d8).

Prime32
2010-04-21, 12:11 PM
No, Half-Dragon improves your racial HD by one step (from d6 to d8).Wait, so Wizards ignored their own rules to make a weak option even weaker? :smallconfused:

Doesn't surprise me.


The sane route to the same end would be to increase the Con bonus by another 2 and give the creature the augmented subtype.

Let's say...

"Half-dragon" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

A half-dragon uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to Dragon, and it gains the augmented subtype. Do not recalculate Hit Dice, base attack bonus, or saves. If it possesses a breath weapon which deals fire or cold damage it also gains that element as a subtype.

Speed: A half-dragon has wings and can fly at twice its base land speed with average maneuverability. If its dragon parent did not have wings, it instead gains a swim, climb or burrow speed if its parent had one (swim or climb speed = base land speed, burrow speed = half base land speed).

Armor Class: Natural armor improves by +4.

Attack: A half-dragon gains natural weapons as a true dragon of its size category. If it already has a natural weapon of one of the types gained use whichever is better.

Special Attacks: A half-dragon retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains one breath weapon of its dragon parent. The area of its breath weapon is determined based on the base creature's size as for true dragons. If the breath weapon deals damage the damage is 1d6 per character level. In all other respects the breath weapon functions like that of its dragon parent.

Special Qualities: A half-dragon has all the special qualities of the base creature, plus darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. A half-dragon has immunity to sleep and paralysis effects. For effects based on age category an lv1 half-dragon is considered a wyrmling, increasing by one age category at every odd level.

Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +8, Con +4, Int +2, Cha +2.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-21, 01:08 PM
I think that a Half-Dragon Goliath/Half-Giant makes a phenominal warblade/barbarian due to the "size" and int. Heck, I even had a build for just such a thing, this 1 using Barbarian:

Race: Half-Blue Dragon Half-Giant (Better due to Psi-like ability)
Class: Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 7/Frenzied Berserker 3/Runescarred Barbarian 10

Mongoose87
2010-04-21, 01:16 PM
I think that a Half-Dragon Goliath/Half-Giant makes a phenominal warblade/barbarian due to the "size" and int. Heck, I even had a build for just such a thing, this 1 using Barbarian:

Race: Half-Blue Dragon Half-Giant (Better due to Psi-like ability)
Class: Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 7/Frenzied Berserker 3/Runescarred Barbarian 10

But... +4 LA!

+4!

LA!

paddyfool
2010-04-21, 01:20 PM
I'm curious... if you were to play a half-dragon, what class and base race would suit it best? I'd be tempted by knight or warblade - you'd need the d12 hit die and full plate to increase your survivability. Also, knight gets some benefit from the +2 Cha, and warblade some benefit from the +2 Int. For the base race, something with a decent strength etc. to start with would be good, and a Con bonus would also be very nice for the same reason as the large hit die. So, how about the following options:

Cheesy: A half-dragon water orc warblade, perhaps?
Classic: A half-dragon human knight/warblade (you'll need the skill point and the feat even more than most).
Max survival: A half-dragon gnome knight, which would also allow you to ride around on a medium-sized mount, although it rather takes away from the +8 Str point of the thing.
Silly: A half-dragon goliath (or half-giant) barbarian, progressing into War Hulk for (horribly fragile) gits and shiggles. Caution: not all DMs will read Powerful Build as enabling War Hulk, and you'll have to promise your DM not to consider going Hulking Hurler.

EDIT: Hmm, somewhat ninja'd. Also, I'd like to say that in terms of making any of these remotely playable... LA buyoff could really be your friend. And it is of course worth noting that the Polymorph line and Wild Shape are far, far more effective ways of being a great big monster and smashing stuff.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-21, 01:21 PM
I think that a Half-Dragon Goliath/Half-Giant makes a phenominal warblade/barbarian due to the "size" and int. Heck, I even had a build for just such a thing, this 1 using Barbarian:

Race: Half-Blue Dragon Half-Giant (Better due to Psi-like ability)
Class: Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 7/Frenzied Berserker 3/Runescarred Barbarian 10

Well, at least your PrCing is decent. Still, you're an ECL 24 character. At that level, you better be able to smash worlds.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-21, 01:22 PM
But... +4 LA!

+4!

LA!

Thats fine. the d12 is worth it.... *pats mongoose on the head* shhhhh....LA is your friend...

and besides, its not for low-levels anyways, otherwise it'd be FAR weaker...

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-04-21, 01:28 PM
Okay, so I just checked, and it looks like you could definitely make an argument that a dragonborn warforged could take the feral template. While the sidebar says you merely gain the dragonblood subtype, the core text says that dragonborn are humanoid(dragonblooded) in addition to any racial types they had before. I'll check errata, but I think this still holds.

Input, anyone?I'm not sure... the fluff does mention "or some other humanoid race"


You retain your original types and subtypes, gaining the dragonblood subtype.

So the humanoid thing is probably just the assumed use of PHB races. If its applicable to non-humanoids, I would say warforged stay constructs but just have the dragonblood subtype.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-21, 01:32 PM
I'm not sure...

So the humanoid thing is probably just the assumed use of PHB races. For warforged, I would say they stay constructs but just have the dragonblood subtype.They also lose their immunities and other racial traits, including their armor plating (though I'm fairly sure they keep the plating if they've taken one of the Warforged Body feats).

Amphetryon
2010-04-21, 01:35 PM
I'm curious... if you were to play a half-dragon, what class and base race would suit it best? I'd be tempted by knight or warblade - you'd need the d12 hit die and full plate to increase your survivability. Also, knight gets some benefit from the +2 Cha, and warblade some benefit from the +2 Int. For the base race, something with a decent strength etc. to start with would be good, and a Con bonus would also be very nice for the same reason as the large hit die. So, how about the following options:

Cheesy: A half-dragon water orc warblade, perhaps?
Classic: A half-dragon human knight/warblade (you'll need the skill point and the feat even more than most).
Max survival: A half-dragon gnome knight, which would also allow you to ride around on a medium-sized mount, although it rather takes away from the +8 Str point of the thing.
Silly: A half-dragon goliath (or half-giant) barbarian, progressing into War Hulk for (horribly fragile) gits and shiggles. Caution: not all DMs will read Powerful Build as enabling War Hulk, and you'll have to promise your DM not to consider going Hulking Hurler.

EDIT: Hmm, somewhat ninja'd. Also, I'd like to say that in terms of making any of these remotely playable... LA buyoff could really be your friend. And it is of course worth noting that the Polymorph line and Wild Shape are far, far more effective ways of being a great big monster and smashing stuff.

If forced into Half-Dragon template, I'll use a Mongelfolk Warblade, so that, at a minimum, my CON and HD are high enough to make the hit to HP bearable. I'd be happier if I could do this in Gestalt, where I could yam Dragon Shaman on the other side for some CON synergy and useful, thematically appropriate, passive abilities.

Eldariel
2010-04-21, 01:39 PM
If forced into Half-Dragon template, I'll use a Mongelfolk Warblade, so that, at a minimum, my CON and HD are high enough to make the hit to HP bearable. I'd be happier if I could do this in Gestalt, where I could yam Dragon Shaman on the other side for some CON synergy and useful, thematically appropriate, passive abilities.

Why not Dragonfire Adept?

Doc Roc
2010-04-21, 01:42 PM
They do keep plating if they take a feat.

So the issue is that the text trumps the sidebar, and in the text it says:

"Humanoid (dragonblood): Dragonborn are humanoids
with the dragonblood subtype and any other subtypes
they had before undergoing the Rite of Rebirth. For
all effects related to race, a dragonborn is considered a
dragon and a member of her original race."

So yes:
Feral Dragonborn Warforged is legal, if not reasonable.

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-21, 02:20 PM
They do keep plating if they take a feat.

So the issue is that the text trumps the sidebar, and in the text it says:

"Humanoid (dragonblood): Dragonborn are humanoids
with the dragonblood subtype and any other subtypes
they had before undergoing the Rite of Rebirth. For
all effects related to race, a dragonborn is considered a
dragon and a member of her original race."

So yes:
Feral Dragonborn Warforged is legal, if not reasonable.
Sage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070112a) disagrees with you

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-21, 02:23 PM
Sage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070112a) disagrees with you

On what? He admits that Warforged Dragonborn is legal, and then says they keep the feats that grant plating (but not the original Composite Plating).


The next logical question, of course, is whether the dragonborn warforged can select feats that would improve his now-absent composite plating. Technically, these feats don’t list composite plating as a prerequisite, so it appears the answer would be yes.

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-21, 02:26 PM
About the "becoming a humanoid" thing.

Amphetryon
2010-04-21, 02:30 PM
Why not Dragonfire Adept?
Works just as well, but is a more 'active' class, while in Gestalt you generally prefer to have one active and one passive class because of the action economy.

Doc Roc
2010-04-21, 03:10 PM
About the "becoming a humanoid" thing.

Hum, yeah, he does. I'm not sure I really care that much. :)
I probably should, but it's not like the specified critter is particularly optimal.

Morithias
2010-04-21, 03:26 PM
They are good if you are playing with the UA varient of buying off your LA, since it's one of the few templates in the core books you can buy off by epic levels.

Kris Strife
2010-04-22, 07:13 AM
Somewhat related, so I guess it works here, how would Dragon Disciple work with classes like Warmage or Beguiler where they know all their spells per level automatically? Would they get an extra Advanced Learning spell?

Runestar
2010-04-22, 07:20 AM
Somewhat related, so I guess it works here, how would Dragon Disciple work with classes like Warmage or Beguiler where they know all their spells per level automatically? Would they get an extra Advanced Learning spell?

Dragon disciple simply grants extra spell slots, it would not advance spellcasting. I don't see why they would get bonus spells known either.

Kris Strife
2010-04-22, 07:43 AM
Dragon disciple simply grants extra spell slots, it would not advance spellcasting. I don't see why they would get bonus spells known either.

Sorry, I thought it was adding to spells known... I'm not sure if that's better or worse.:smallredface:

Edit: any opinions on the Pathfinder Half Dragon or Dragon Disciple?

Doc Roc
2010-04-22, 10:28 AM
I hate them both with a plasma-arc passion.

Kris Strife
2010-04-22, 12:14 PM
Why?this space for rent