PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Riposte Alternatives



EnnPeeCee
2010-04-20, 02:39 AM
Riposte (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), Scout alternative class feature

Having seen this ability a couple times, I've started to like the idea of it more and more. Specifically, I've been wanting to throw it on a "tank" character. But reading the ability more thoroughly made me stumble upon the fact that it doesn't work in medium or heavy armor, something that I believe would compliment this ability the most.

Really what I'm looking for is an alternative to riposte for a heavily armored character. I can't think of anything, and it may not exist, but I thought I'd try.

Pluto
2010-04-20, 02:54 AM
This is pretty much how Stormguard Warrior (ToB) and either Karmic Strike (CW) or Robilar's Gambit (PHB2) interact.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-20, 02:57 AM
This is pretty much how Stormguard Warrior (ToB) and either Karmic Strike (CW) or Robilar's Gambit (PHB2) interact.

Nitpick: Stormguard is the oddball there. It doesn't grant AoOs, it works with them.


If you can get Riposte house ruled to work with Swift Hunter, it makes a TWFing Ranger very deadly. There's a feat that lets you take AoOs with both weapons you are wielding. Combine with Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike (and Stormguard Warrior, if you can squeeze in the requirements), and you will be a blender.

EnnPeeCee
2010-04-20, 03:14 AM
I guess I should specify. The main thing I was looking for from riposte was the bonus damage. Those feats do interact very well with riposte, but unfortunately, I'm looking to make a heavy armor (and therefor low dex) character, which means not relying on attacks of opportunity. I know it won't be very optimized. I'm just looking for something more than a sword-and-board "I hit you with my longsword again" build. Riposte looked like a creative way to enhance a tank.

(jeeze I'm so picky)

Thurbane
2010-04-20, 04:51 AM
...I looked at a few options: Dwarf, Tooth of Savnok, Dragonscale Husk ACF, Warforged with Adamantine Body etc. but none actually overcome the restriction of light or no armor.

Most other items that grant an Armor Bonus (Bracers of Armor, Skin of Ectoplasmic Armor) cap out at +8, which is no better than a Chain Shirt +3. A custom item is an option, but it would be quite expensive compared to magical full plate. Bracers of Armor +13, for example (equivalent to Full Plate +5) would cost 169,000 gp.

One option is the Ring of Arming. It allows you to "store" a second set of armor & weapon in a magical non-space, and summon/change it as a standard action. You could wear heavy armor for general fighting, and swap it out for light when you want to use riposte. Far, far from ideal, but all I can come up with off the top of my head...

Person_Man
2010-04-20, 08:58 AM
If you're looking for a non-boring tank, consider:

Binder: Dahlver-Nar vestige grants Shield Self ability: One enemy gets 50% of your damage (Will negates) for as long as he stays within range (10 ft per Binder level). Also gives you a natural armor bonus = 1/2 your Con bonus and a burst attack that Dazes enemies. There are plenty of other weird vestige options. The Binder doesn't have a strait forward bonus to damage - it's a special ability class (sort of like a Warlock tank). But being Cha based, a short dip synergizes very well with Paladin, Hexblade, Blackguard, and Crusader, which opens up your standard Power Attack and divine/domain feat combos.
Incarnate: Mantle of Flame soulmeld grants 1d6 + (1d6*essentia invested) retributive Fire damage every time an enemy hits you. You also get DR, SR, bonus hit points, and plenty of other tank goodness. A Lawful Incarnate can also get huge bonuses To-Hit, while an Evil Incarnate gets big bonuses to damage.
Totemist 2: The more violent and reckless brother of the Incarnate. Gets easy access to LOTS of natural weapons, boosts to damage, and great mobility.
Psychic Warrior 7: Hostile Empathic Transfer (http://srd.realmspire.com/psionicPowersDtoF.html#empathic-transfer-hostile). You can also use Expanded Knowledge to get access to Forced Share Pain (http://srd.realmspire.com/psionicPowersQtoW.html#share-pain-forced). You can also get large bonuses to damage from Claws of the Beast + Expansion + etc.
Crusader: Chock full of interesting things to do. I'm not even going to get into it, as it would take too long to explain in bullet format.
Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429) 4+: King of Aggro. Your bonus damage comes from Spirited Charge (which you get as a bonus feat), and enemies must attack you (and not your friends).

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-20, 09:21 AM
In ebberon i could see that.

Theres a feat called dancing with shadows or path of shadows or something for kala****es . It basicaly allows them to fight defensivly and get bonus's. turns your combat expertise/fighting defensive bonus into an offensive attack. plus with deadly defense or what ever feat it is that lets you do an extra 1d6 dmg when you fight defensivly or use combat expertise this could synergise quite well.

Pluto
2010-04-20, 10:04 AM
IThose feats do interact very well with riposte, but unfortunately, I'm looking to make a heavy armor (and therefor low dex) character, which means not relying on attacks of opportunity.
Stormguard Warrior gives bonuses based on the number of AoO's you neglect to take. Dex is irrelevant.

edit:

Nitpick: Stormguard is the oddball there. It doesn't grant AoOs, it works with them.
You're right.
I wasn't clear.
I meant the Stormguard Warrior/Karmic Strike combination or the Stormguard Warrior/Robilar's Gambit combination.
Both grant a Fighter large damage increases based on the number of attacks made against him each round.
(Both also require some strong defenses to survive, but I'm sure most players can find a way to make it work out.)

EnnPeeCee
2010-04-20, 06:29 PM
...I looked at a few options: Dwarf, Tooth of Savnok, Dragonscale Husk ACF, Warforged with Adamantine Body etc. but none actually overcome the restriction of light or no armor.

Most other items that grant an Armor Bonus (Bracers of Armor, Skin of Ectoplasmic Armor) cap out at +8, which is no better than a Chain Shirt +3. A custom item is an option, but it would be quite expensive compared to magical full plate. Bracers of Armor +13, for example (equivalent to Full Plate +5) would cost 169,000 gp.

One option is the Ring of Arming. It allows you to "store" a second set of armor & weapon in a magical non-space, and summon/change it as a standard action. You could wear heavy armor for general fighting, and swap it out for light when you want to use riposte. Far, far from ideal, but all I can come up with off the top of my head...

Hmm, that is one thing I failed to consider, alternatives to heavy armor. I'll look around to see if there is anything else that will work.



If you're looking for a non-boring tank, consider:

Binder: Dahlver-Nar vestige grants Shield Self ability: One enemy gets 50% of your damage (Will negates) for as long as he stays within range (10 ft per Binder level). Also gives you a natural armor bonus = 1/2 your Con bonus and a burst attack that Dazes enemies. There are plenty of other weird vestige options. The Binder doesn't have a strait forward bonus to damage - it's a special ability class (sort of like a Warlock tank). But being Cha based, a short dip synergizes very well with Paladin, Hexblade, Blackguard, and Crusader, which opens up your standard Power Attack and divine/domain feat combos.
Incarnate: Mantle of Flame soulmeld grants 1d6 + (1d6*essentia invested) retributive Fire damage every time an enemy hits you. You also get DR, SR, bonus hit points, and plenty of other tank goodness. A Lawful Incarnate can also get huge bonuses To-Hit, while an Evil Incarnate gets big bonuses to damage.
Totemist 2: The more violent and reckless brother of the Incarnate. Gets easy access to LOTS of natural weapons, boosts to damage, and great mobility.
Psychic Warrior 7: Hostile Empathic Transfer (http://srd.realmspire.com/psionicPowersDtoF.html#empathic-transfer-hostile). You can also use Expanded Knowledge to get access to Forced Share Pain (http://srd.realmspire.com/psionicPowersQtoW.html#share-pain-forced). You can also get large bonuses to damage from Claws of the Beast + Expansion + etc.
Crusader: Chock full of interesting things to do. I'm not even going to get into it, as it would take too long to explain in bullet format.
Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429) 4+: King of Aggro. Your bonus damage comes from Spirited Charge (which you get as a bonus feat), and enemies must attack you (and not your friends).


/sigh
Thus my group's restrictions of no ToB, Incarnate, or Psionics gets in the way again. Granted, I'm just working on the character concept, but I like to stay within the rules of my group.
I actually started thinking about this when I was looking at the knight.



In ebberon i could see that.

Theres a feat called dancing with shadows or path of shadows or something for kala****es . It basicaly allows them to fight defensivly and get bonus's. turns your combat expertise/fighting defensive bonus into an offensive attack. plus with deadly defense or what ever feat it is that lets you do an extra 1d6 dmg when you fight defensivly or use combat expertise this could synergise quite well.

Sounds interesting, I'll look for it.



Stormguard Warrior gives bonuses based on the number of AoO's you neglect to take. Dex is irrelevant.

edit:

You're right.
I wasn't clear.
I meant the Stormguard Warrior/Karmic Strike combination or the Stormguard Warrior/Robilar's Gambit combination.
Both grant a Fighter large damage increases based on the number of attacks made against him each round.
(Both also require some strong defenses to survive, but I'm sure most players can find a way to make it work out.)

Huh, so it does. Maybe I could look into making a no-ToB version of it.

The Glyphstone
2010-04-20, 06:40 PM
Maybe just modify the prerequisites (take out the needed Maneuvers and remove the Iron Heart references), and then use it as-is? ToB didn't invent tactical feats, they're present in force in both CWarrior and PHBII, so it should be fine even if your group doesn't use ToB. Nothing in the feat's actual abilities relates to maneuvers except the third function, which can be used with Iron Heart strikes or normal melee attacks anyways.

EnnPeeCee
2010-04-21, 02:31 AM
Bahh, there's really no easy way around this armor restriction is there? I doubt it would be at all gamebreaking to handwave away the restriction, but I hate resorting to homebrew. :smallannoyed:

Thurbane
2010-04-21, 04:24 PM
Bahh, there's really no easy way around this armor restriction is there? I doubt it would be at all gamebreaking to handwave away the restriction, but I hate resorting to homebrew. :smallannoyed:
If the restriction was worded the same way as, for example, Tumble, then being a Dwarf or using the tooth of Savnok would overcome it.

You canít use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot.

EnnPeeCee
2010-04-21, 05:57 PM
If the restriction was worded the same way as, for example, Tumble, then being a Dwarf or using the tooth of Savnok would overcome it.

Yeah, but unfortunately, it isn't. It specifically says no medium or heavy armor.

There is the halfweight armor enchantment from Underdark, but that's awfully expensive at +3 just to make a character concept work.

The Knight's armor mastery also just removes the speed reduction on medium and heavy armors.

Ernir
2010-04-21, 06:34 PM
How about just a Mithral Breastplate? Counts as light.

If all else fails, you can always ask the party Cleric to cast Luminous Armor (Book of Exalted Deeds) on you or something. Wearing armor is not the only way to not get hit. :smalltongue:

EnnPeeCee
2010-04-21, 06:44 PM
How about just a Mithral Breastplate? Counts as light.

If all else fails, you can always ask the party Cleric to cast Luminous Armor (Book of Exalted Deeds) on you or something. Wearing armor is not the only way to not get hit. :smalltongue:

True true, I was just hoping to design a heavy armor, low dex, character. If I use something like mithril armor I might as well just make a dex based character, which I tend to make a lot of. I'm in a shambling pile of armor kind of mood.

Thurbane
2010-04-21, 08:18 PM
I found something! :smallbiggrin:

Tesselated Armor (3.0 AEG, p.95): essentially, it's +2 Full Plate that counts as medium. If you can get a mithril suit of this armor, it would count as light! Since it is a unique armor, and is 3.0, would probably require Dm approval to allow a mithril version of it...

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 08:21 PM
I found something! :smallbiggrin:

Tesselated Armor (3.0 AEG, p.95): essentially, it's +2 Full Plate that counts as medium. If you can get a mithril suit of this armor, it would count as light! Since it is a unique armor, and is 3.0, would probably require Dm approval to allow a mithril version of it...

or. a bit more expensive, but completely legal by RAW: +1 halfweight (UD) mithril fullplate of nimbleness (MiC). totals fullplate AC bonus, treated as light armor for all purposes, 0 ARP, and +4 max dex.

EnnPeeCee
2010-04-21, 08:44 PM
I found something! :smallbiggrin:

Tesselated Armor (3.0 AEG, p.95): essentially, it's +2 Full Plate that counts as medium. If you can get a mithril suit of this armor, it would count as light! Since it is a unique armor, and is 3.0, would probably require Dm approval to allow a mithril version of it...


Nice find. I feel like you're putting more effort into this than I am.



or. a bit more expensive, but completely legal by RAW: +1 halfweight (UD) mithril fullplate of nimbleness (MiC). totals fullplate AC bonus, treated as light armor for all purposes, 0 ARP, and +4 max dex.

If I'm not mistaken, halfweight makes any armor light, so the mithril isn't necessary. But yeah, definitely an expensive option.

Thurbane
2010-04-21, 08:45 PM
Nice find. I feel like you're putting more effort into this than I am.
I love a challenge, not to mention that it could be beneficial on some builds I am looking at for my game. :smallwink:

EpicEvokerElf
2010-04-21, 10:56 PM
If you're looking for a non-boring tank, consider:

Binder: Dahlver-Nar vestige grants Shield Self ability: One enemy gets 50% of your damage (Will negates) for as long as he stays within range (10 ft per Binder level). Also gives you a natural armor bonus = 1/2 your Con bonus and a burst attack that Dazes enemies. There are plenty of other weird vestige options. The Binder doesn't have a strait forward bonus to damage - it's a special ability class (sort of like a Warlock tank). But being Cha based, a short dip synergizes very well with Paladin, Hexblade, Blackguard, and Crusader, which opens up your standard Power Attack and divine/domain feat combos.
Nitpick: you can't dip binder with paladin without losing your class abilities, as I recall; many DMs would also enforce this on Crusader even if it's not RAW.

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 11:47 PM
If I'm not mistaken, halfweight makes any armor light, so the mithril isn't necessary. But yeah, definitely an expensive option.

It does, but I was adding on the mithril to get the max dex higher and lower the ARP to 0. if that doesn't matter to you, ignore it, but I generally like not having my armor hinder me in the slightest bit.

Thurbane
2010-04-22, 12:05 AM
Nitpick: you can't dip binder with paladin without losing your class abilities, as I recall; many DMs would also enforce this on Crusader even if it's not RAW.
Not correct: absolutely no reason you can't be an LG binder, and no reason it would affect Paladin abilities, other than possibly deity specific ones. ToM even has sidebars to deal with "Heterodoxy", and how to be a Binder/Cleric or Binder/Paladin even if your deity doesn't approve.