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Knaight
2010-04-20, 06:57 PM
Caveman Hunter

Og want Mog mammoth.
Og not like Mog have mammoth.
Mammoth tasty, want.

The Caveman Hunter is an early entry prestige class for animal hunters, intended for an ice age inspired character.

Prerequisites: Constitution 15, Endurance, Survival 9 ranks.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Caveman Hunter gains no new weapon and armor proficiencies. Furthermore they may not use their class abilities if using shields or wearing heavy armor.
Class skills: Swim, Climb, Jump, Ride, Survival, Craft, Profession, Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen.
Skill Points: 4+Intelligence Modifier

Hit die: d12
Saves: Good Fort, Good Reflex, Poor Will.
BAB: Full

LevelBABFortRefWillSpecial

11220Cave Weaponry +1, Favored Enemy Animal, Illiteracy

22330Fast Movement 10

33331Far Throw, Clobber, Cave Weaponry +2

44441Fast Movement 20, Wound

55442Throw On the Run, Cave Weaponry +3



Cave Weaponry-At level 1 Caveman Hunters gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage with the following weapons: Short Spear, Long Spear, Javelin, Club, Great club, and Bola. The bonus improves to +2 at level 3 and +3 at level 5. This stacks with any other bonus to these weapons. Only the weapons included in Cave Weaponry can be used for any other class features, excepting fast movement.

Favored Enemy Animal-At level 1 Caveman Hunters gain the Favored Enemy ability, like the ranger ability of the same name. It gives a bonus equal to the class level of the Caveman Hunter, and stacks with the ranger ability of the same name.

Illiteracy-A Caveman Hunter cannot read and write unless another class gives them the ability to read and write.

Fast Movement-At level 2 Caveman Hunters gain a +10 untyped bonus to speed, this improves to +20 at fourth level.

Far Throw-At level 3 the range increment of the Javelin and Bola are doubled for the Caveman Hunter. This stacks with any other method of improving range.

Clobber-At level 3 Caveman Hunters may deal an additional 2 points of damage on a charge per point of base attack bonus on each ititerative attack they would normally get to make but do not (so a +20/+15/+10/+5 BAB nets a +60 to charge damage, 30 from the +15, 20 from the +10, and 10 from the +5). Furthermore they may now charge and throw a javelin.

Wound-At level 4 Caveman Hunters may wound enemies larger than themselves. They deal an additional 1d6 precision damage per size category smaller than their target. Furthermore, a wounded target must make a fortitude save against the damage dealt or move at half speed until they are healed (DC 10 Heal check).

Throw on the Run-At level 5 Caveman Hunters gain a +1 bonus to damage for every five feet they move before throwing a ranged weapon. This does not impair accuracy, and stacks with Clobber. It may not be used while mounted.

Knaight
2010-04-21, 11:05 PM
Bump. No one even wants to tell me how horribly over/under/side powered this is?

Random_person
2010-04-22, 01:03 AM
Well, in general stat requirements for PrCs are advised against.

Clobber is... confusing, and I'm not sure what you meant it to do. The rest of it is a bit underwhelming, really.

DracoDei
2010-04-22, 06:00 AM
Put the BAB and Saves in the table... you know how to make a table, and people expect it.

~Corvus~
2010-04-22, 06:15 AM
underwhelming, sure, but.. in a caveman and Ice Age world are we expecting Tome of Battle?

To explain Clobber... look at this example... Urg, a Barbarian 6 / Caveman Hunter 5 has BAB of +11, which allows him three attacks with a Full attack at +11 / +6 / +1. He has two iterative attacks. What Knaight is TRYING to do is give +2 damage for each additional attack that Urg gives up on a charge. Only problem is, the rules say that you only get one attack at the end of a charge, so this ability as written looks useless.

Analysis
2010-04-22, 07:38 AM
I like it. Compare with Ranger or Barbarian, both of which seems to be ideal entry points. Do these abilities stack with their equivalents from those classes?
Also, how many skill points?

I am now looking forward to a cave painting-style shaman spellcaster. :smallsmile:

hamishspence
2010-04-22, 07:41 AM
underwhelming, sure, but.. in a caveman and Ice Age world are we expecting Tome of Battle?

Maybe we should be. Kung-Fu Kaveman, so to speak :smallbiggrin:

Jack of Spades
2010-04-22, 09:00 AM
Overall, it looks good to me. It has some treats, and it seems like a Monk could benefit a lot from it (more speed, a favored enemy, and I can charge-and-throw javelins? Sounds good for that lot) in the right campaign.

Suggestion for better wording:
Clobber-On a charge, 3rd level Caveman Hunters may add 2 points of damage to his attack for each iterative attack that he would make during a Full Attack but may not in a charge. Furthermore they may now charge and throw a javelin.

Minor nitpick (other than saves and BAB in the table (!!!)): You should start each description by indicating the level at which the ability is gained, as I did above.


I am now looking forward to a cave painting-style shaman spellcaster. :smallsmile:
Seconded :smallbiggrin:

imp_fireball
2010-04-22, 12:35 PM
Maybe the name should be changed around to better reflect a stone age/ice age setting, since being named 'cave man' could get old (I'm thinking something along the lines of beast hunter, herding impaler, etc.).

Maybe they could choose an environment to adapt to, like terrain mastery (homebrew) or endure elements in certain environments?

Also human sub-species like neanderthal, those really small humans (can't remember what they were called, homo-floro something?), etc.

Knaight
2010-04-22, 04:35 PM
underwhelming, sure, but.. in a caveman and Ice Age world are we expecting Tome of Battle?

To explain Clobber... look at this example... Urg, a Barbarian 6 / Caveman Hunter 5 has BAB of +11, which allows him three attacks with a Full attack at +11 / +6 / +1. He has two iterative attacks. What Knaight is TRYING to do is give +2 damage for each additional attack that Urg gives up on a charge. Only problem is, the rules say that you only get one attack at the end of a charge, so this ability as written looks useless.

No, what I am trying to do is give +2 damage for each point of ititerative attack bonus. So Urg wouldn't get +4 damage from a charge. Urg would get +14, (2*6)+(2*1). That's how clobber is supposed to work, I was just having trouble explaining it. Clobber is one of the more powerful abilities from this class, as is Throw on the Run, as they both scale with things that one can get from other classes. Fixedish, with an example.

No plans for a cave painting style spell caster, although the idea is so tempting I might just have to go for it in the future.

Amiel
2010-04-22, 06:32 PM
How set are you on making the fluff match (with) the mechanics?

Would you consider the Caveman Hunter suffers from illiteracy?
The skill points you give the class may be a tad high; possibly lower it to a more realistic 2+Int modifier? it's a very narrowly focused class; unless you're modeling it on the barbarian.
Finally, could you explain why you gave an animal hunter Bluff and Diplomacy as class skills?

Knaight
2010-04-22, 10:39 PM
Honestly, the fluff is pretty much summed up in the haiku. I am modeling it on the barbarian, but having a prestige class either require illiteracy or take away literacy seems stupid, however if one goes from barbarian into this it isn't a big deal.

As for bluff and diplomacy, allow the following dialogue to explain.
Mog: Mog Kill Mammoth. Meat for Mog.

Og: No, Og Kill Mammoth. Mog Drop Spear, Og throw spear. Mog drop spear so real hunter Kill Mammoth and Mog get Meat. Kill mammoth, meat!

Trog: Chief Vog, Og and Mog fight over Mammoth. If Trog Get Mammoth when Trog not kill mammoth who kill mammoth not matter. Trog get meat.

Obviously Og needs bluff here, and Trog diplomacy. :smallsmile:

More seriously, those particular skills should be universal.

As for fluff and mechanics, the class is specialized around taking down big animals with one attack. Hence Clobber and Throw on the Run, Mog can run up to a mammoth, lob a spear, at at level 10 with 5 levels of Barbarian, 5 levels of Caveman Hunter, Mog deals 10 damage with clobber, 12 damage with Far Throw, 5 damage from Favored Enemy, 1d6+Strength damage with the javelin, plus anything feats give. I think there is a ranged power attack somewhere, but this lets him drop a guy with one javelin. Furthermore he can track animals well, and only uses archaic weaponry. I see it fitting well, and while they get a bonus on human sized targets as well, natural skill overlap explains it.

imp_fireball
2010-04-22, 10:46 PM
How set are you on making the fluff match (with) the mechanics?

Would you consider the Caveman Hunter suffers from illiteracy?
The skill points you give the class may be a tad high; possibly lower it to a more realistic 2+Int modifier? it's a very narrowly focused class; unless you're modeling it on the barbarian.
Finally, could you explain why you gave an animal hunter Bluff and Diplomacy as class skills?

It seems like a narf to make the caveman hunter require illiteracy. Maybe you should make them racial substitution levels or a specific PRC that requires certain races... all of those are inflexible though.

Also bluff and diplomacy... bluff for feigning and diplomacy as tribe representative?

Also, I was thinking they should be able to knock back people with thrown spears or apply some other affect by sacrificing damage (throwing charges are cool nonetheless; maybe they could simultaneously make a running jump check and attack action involving a throw in the same action), or be able to throw great spears and harpoon sized spears (simultaneous knock back and pin effect with harpoon). A variant of this class could hunt the gargantuan blue whales. Heh.

Knaight
2010-04-22, 11:12 PM
It seems like a narf to make the caveman hunter require illiteracy. Maybe you should make them racial substitution levels or a specific PRC that requires certain races... all of those are inflexible though.

Also bluff and diplomacy... bluff for feigning and diplomacy as tribe representative?

Also, I was thinking they should be able to knock back people with thrown spears or apply some other affect by sacrificing damage (throwing charges are cool nonetheless; maybe they could simultaneously make a running jump check and attack action involving a throw in the same action), or be able to throw great spears and harpoon sized spears (simultaneous knock back and pin effect with harpoon). A variant of this class could hunt the gargantuan blue whales. Heh.

Yeah, I'm not doing illiteracy. I want to keep this somewhat open, and if the class ends up being useful to a well educated skirmishing arena duelist, all they lose out on is the haiku I'm trying to pass off as the flavor text.

Bluff and Diplomacy stay, they are open generics that every class really should have. And the above conversation between Mog, Og, Trog, and kind of Vog implies as much.

As for thrown knockback, there is a feat for that, and it doesn't make sense with big mammoths and such. As for great spears and harpoons, the weapons are just the PHB stuff. I'll add an adaptation section soon, that basically states add similar weapons if adding non PHB sources.

Cuaqchi
2010-04-23, 07:56 AM
Also human sub-species like Neandertal, those really small humans (can't remember what they were called, homo-floro something?), etc.

Fixed the bolded part for you. Also you're thinking of Homo Floresiensis (Hobbits).

Regarding the class itself; Bluff, Diplomacy, Profession, Ride, and Sense Motive aren't needed and the band style social structure may even run counter to your example of the social skills in use.

Also add Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen; this is a hunter and should have skills that assist such an objective.

hamishspence
2010-04-23, 08:44 AM
Fixed the bolded part for you. Also you're thinking of Homo Floresiensis (Hobbits).

Whether or not it's the correct spelling, the Frostburn splatbook uses Neanderthal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

Just because there is a trend for spelling it Neandertal, does not mean that Neanderthal is a "wrong spelling".

Ashtagon
2010-04-23, 09:06 AM
Until this thread, I had never seen the "neandertal" spelling.

hamishspence
2010-04-23, 09:07 AM
I think it's mostly American.

This may be the reason:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neandertal

The valley was renamed. While taxonomy rules prevent the scientific name of the creature being changed, some people may be choosing to change the common name.

Knaight
2010-04-23, 06:02 PM
Fixed the bolded part for you. Also you're thinking of Homo Floresiensis (Hobbits).

Regarding the class itself; Bluff, Diplomacy, Profession, Ride, and Sense Motive aren't needed and the band style social structure may even run counter to your example of the social skills in use.

Also add Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen; this is a hunter and should have skills that assist such an objective.

Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive should be universal with anyone with a language. Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen are being added.

Cuaqchi
2010-04-23, 08:13 PM
Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive should be universal with anyone with a language. Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen are being added.

You seem to follow a very Lockian philosophy regarding people, which though sometimes accurate is not universal. A Roussouian ideal where people are honest and self deprecating can and does/did exist, and in such a society Diplomacy might exist but neither Bluff nor Sense Motive would exist and little to no practice would exist for such skills to be Class Skills.

Also Riding was a development of the Bronze Age, after not only the domestication of horses but also the development of weapons that could be reliably used from horseback.

Knaight
2010-04-24, 12:14 AM
And in the case of the Rosseau inspired cultures, don't take those skills. In the case of a Hobbes inspired culture optimize diplomacy and sense motive to absurd heights to avoid being screwed over by some social contract or other. I'm not removing the option. They show up with Kant too, at least for the "enlightened" people, though more sense motive and diplomacy again.

As for ride, keep in mind that the process becomes much easier when you have animals that are intelligent, can be talked to, and can be ridden, thus no longer necessitating communication. Particularly when weapons are completely redundant on some of these creatures. That bit is a nod to fantasy.

Cuaqchi
2010-04-24, 09:42 AM
Good enough...

Knaight
2010-04-24, 12:10 PM
I am tweaking Shot on the Run so it doesn't work with a mounted charge however, so Ride isn't always hugely useful with this class.

ryleah
2010-04-24, 12:30 PM
I don't like the idea that if a barbarian takes a level of cave man he gains literacy. Adding illiteracy to the class wouldn't make a fighter who dips into the class develop illiteracy, because he would have a class that makes him literate, it would prevent barbarians and totemists from taking the class and learning to read as part of becoming a more effective cave man.

More on topic, it seems the point of the class is hunting big animals, so how about some bonus when your foe is larger than you? If you put that in I would totally use this class to make a dragon slaying Neandert(h)al.

Knaight
2010-04-24, 12:54 PM
Good points, changes being made.

Jack of Spades
2010-04-24, 09:06 PM
An idea that just popped into my head:
Specialization.

In Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal (spelled that way, but often pronounced Neandertal) tribes, individuals were generally somewhat specialized. A few possibilities:

Shaman: Throw a few animal and nature based spells into the mix.
Scout: +5 movement speed, bonus to hide.
Maker: Bonus to craft (armorsmithing) and craft (weaponsmithing) for hide armor or one of the caveman's specialized weapons.
Healer: Bonus to alchemy, cure minor wounds.
Hunter: Further bonuses with a given cave weapon.
Stuff like that.

Also, since we seem to be assuming that this is modeled after a Neanderthal, it would make sense for some form of cold resistance to occur, maybe even one that is restricted to hide armor (the neanderthal has the skills to optimize his armor for cold weather, or somesuch).

Just suggestions, mind you :smallbiggrin:

Knaight
2010-04-24, 10:02 PM
An idea that just popped into my head:
Specialization.

In Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal (spelled that way, but often pronounced Neandertal) tribes, individuals were generally somewhat specialized. A few possibilities:

Shaman: Throw a few animal and nature based spells into the mix.
Scout: +5 movement speed, bonus to hide.
Maker: Bonus to craft (armorsmithing) and craft (weaponsmithing) for hide armor or one of the caveman's specialized weapons.
Healer: Bonus to alchemy, cure minor wounds.
Hunter: Further bonuses with a given cave weapon.
Stuff like that.

Also, since we seem to be assuming that this is modeled after a Neanderthal, it would make sense for some form of cold resistance to occur, maybe even one that is restricted to hide armor (the neanderthal has the skills to optimize his armor for cold weather, or somesuch).

Just suggestions, mind you :smallbiggrin:

I think there is something about cold survival with heavy furs built in already, so that is covered. Were I to make a neanderthal or primitive human race, they at the very least get a bonus to resisting cold. Plus, this does require Endurance.

As for specialization, this class is the hunter. As for the Shaman, that cave painting mage is still floating around, and the other stuff is fairly easy to model with feats. Weapon focus and such even let you focus on one weapon. Basically, its already built in so I don't have to get to it, other than the aforementioned Cave Painter, which is beyond my ability at a homebrewer in D&D.