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Kinslayer777
2010-04-23, 08:05 PM
Hey guys, need your help here. I take no credit for this class creation as it's really only a culmination of existing 3.5/homebrew classes that I decided to pick and choose from. I want to make sure it's balanced so please, criticism is encouraged. Thanks!

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww56/ZangetsuJC/Maddox__Destrayan_Elf_by_Natalie79.jpg

Table: The Samurai Hit Die: d10.
{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will| Special
1 | +1 | +0 |+2 | +0 | Weapon path, Iajutsu master, Pledge of loyalty, Bloodless Duel
2 | +2 | +0 | +3 | +0 | Combat style, Battle Initiative
3 | +3 | +1 | +3 | +1 | Kiai smite 1/encounter
4 | +4 | +1 | +4 | +1 | Third eye
5 | +5 | +1 | +4 | +1 | Staredown, Ancestral guidance
6 | +6/+1 | +2 | +5 | +2 | Improved combat style, Signature weapon
7 | +7/+2 | +2 | +5 | +2 | Whirlwind, Power surge
8 | +8/+3 | +2 | +6 | +2 | Improved staredown, Mind over matter
9 | +9/+4 | +3 | +6 | +3 | Kiai smite 2/encounter, Evasion
10 | +10/+5 | +3 | +7 | +3 | Ki projection
11 | +11/+6/+1 | +3 | +7 | +3 | Intimidating glance, Quicksilver
12 | +12/+7/+2 | +4 | +8 | +4 | Greater combat style
13 | +13/+8/+3 | +4 | +8 | +4 | Improved Evasion
14 | +14/+9/+4 | +4 | +9 | +4 | Intimidating stance
15 | +15/+10/+5 | +5 | +9 | +5 | Greater staredown
16 | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +5 | +10 | +5 | Horde killer, Kiai smite 3/encounter
17 | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +5 | +10 | +5 |
18 | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +6 | +10 | +6 | Mass staredown
19 | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +6 | +11 | +6 | Uninhibited
20 | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +6 | +12 | +6 | Fear mastery, Ki warlord, Warlord Combat Style
[/table]

Class Skills (5 + Int modifier, x5 at 1st level): Concentration, Craft*, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Iaijutsu Focus**, Intimidate, Knowledge (history), Profession (artist), Ride, Sense Motive, Jump, Listen, Spot, Search
* This skill is actually a category encompassing many separate but related skills, such as Craft (weaponsmith) or Perform (oratory). Each skill must be taken separately.
** This skill is detailed in the 3.0 supplement Oriental Adventures, and is (unofficially) updated to 3.5 below.

CLASS FEATURES
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A samurai is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with all armors, but not with shields or tower shields. Samurai wear light armor normally and are trained with a variety of weapons, but they typically either wield two-handed weapons or two weapons, and thus do not typically carry shields.
AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the samurai adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC.
This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when the samurai is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.
Pledge of Loyalty: Samurai pledge their loyalty to a Lord, a figure of temporal power and head of a noble family or clan. To retain this Lord, they must follow this Lord's orders and uphold any Code of Conduct the Lord obeys. As long as a Samurai does these two things, he cannot be forced to act against his Lord or Lord's family by mind-affecting effects.
Samurai who have broken their vows to their lord are called ronin, while samurai who have never been pledged to a lord or are unwilling to do so are weaponmasters called kensai, sword saints, or simply "master swordsman" or other descriptive title. Regardless of their name, Samurai without a Lord receive a +4 bonus against mind-affecting effects.
Bloodless Duel: Samurai are powerful figures – they are extremely skilled and self-confident, able to face any foe without flinching and with the sure knowledge that, regardless of how the fight goes, they lived a life of which they can be proud and intend to die honourably. When a Samurai enters a duel, he may be able to stop the fight before it starts, cowing his opponent into surrendering before blood is shed. When this ability is used, each duellist must make a Charisma check with a DC equal to the honour of the opposing person. If the Samurai’s check succeeds by a greater margin than his opponent, that opponent immediately concedes the battle and sheathes his weapon. If the Samurai fails his check, or does not succeed by a greater margin than his opponent, he must immediately make a Will save (DC equal to the opponent’s honour) or suffer a –2 circumstance penalty on any attack roll made during the duel.
Weapon Path: At 1st level, a samurai chooses one of the following weapons, and an associated path to follow for the rest of his samurai career. This choice not only affects what combat style he eventually gains (see below), it also affects his list of bonus feats.
The choices for the samurai's weapon path are as follows:

Daisho (Katana) - The samurai gains Two-Weapon Fighting and the ability to take any feats which list it as a prerequisite with his samurai bonus feats.
The samurai may treat his samurai levels as fighter levels for the purposes of acquiring feats such as Weapon Specialization, which require a certain minimum fighter level, but the only weapon (or damage type, for feats such as Melee Weapon Mastery) he may select for those feats is the weapon indicated in his weapon path.

Dai-Kyu (Longbow) - The samurai gains the ability to take Point Blank Shot and any feats which list it as a prerequisite with his samurai bonus feats. In addition, Improved Mounted Archery (CWar pg. 101) is added to his list of samurai bonus feats.
Iaijustu (Katana) - The samurai adds Improved Critical and Power Critical (CWar pg. 103) to his list of samurai bonus feats.
Naginata (Glaive) - The samurai adds Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, and Short Haft (PHB2 pg. 82.) to his list of samurai bonus feats.

Combat Style (Ex): At 2nd level, the samurai's prowess with his chosen path increases. He gains an ability based upon the weapon he chose for his weapon path ability.

Daisho- Two Swords as One (Ex): A daisho samurai may apply the benefits of any weapon-specific feats (Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, etc.) he selects for his katana to his wakizashi as well whenever he is wielding both at the same time.
Dai-Kyu - Mighty Pull (Ex): The samurai may treat a longbow or composite longbow he is using as if it had the Mighty ability, allowing a samurai with Strength 12 or higher to add a +1 bonus to damage rolls using the bow. If the composite longbow the samurai is wielding is already Mighty, the samurai adds an additional +1 to the amount of Strength bonus the bow adds to damage.
This ability does not actually increase the Mighty rating of the bow; a samurai wielding a Mighty composite longbow already suited to his full Strength does not suffer the -2 attack penalty for wielding one more powerful than he can handle.
Iaijutsu - Iaijutsu Strike (Ex): Once per encounter, the samurai may draw and attack with his katana in one fluid motion, catching his opponent off-guard. As a standard action, the samurai makes a single attack, which catches the target flat-footed.
Naginata - Spear Lunge (Ex): As a standard action, a Naginata samurai may add +5' reach to one attack.
Improved Combat Style (Ex): At 6th level, a samurai's understanding of his chosen fighting style expands further, granting him access to feats few others could duplicate. The samurai gains one of the abilities listed below, depending on his combat style.

Daisho: Improved Two Swords As One (Ex) The daisho-wielding samurai's synergy with his two weapons increases. He no longer suffers the -2 penalty to attacks when wielding his katana in his main hand and his wakizashi in his off hand.
Dai-Kyu: Penetrating Shot (Ex): A samurai with this fighting style learns to "kill two birds with one arrow." When wielding a longbow (composite or normal), the samurai may designate one attack per round as a free action to be a "bank shot". This allows the samurai to make a secondary attack against a target adjacent to the primary target; both attacks suffer a -5 penalty. If successful, both targets suffer the effects of the attack as normal.
Iaijutsu: Return to the Center (Ex): An iaijutsu master samurai learns how to refocus himself and his energies to strike with supreme speed and catch his opponents off-guard more than once. As a move action, the samurai re-sheathes his sword, adjusts his stance, and quiets his mind, allowing him to use his iaijutsu strike ability again. The iaijutsu master may use this ability at will.
Naginata: Defensive Spear (Ex): Once per encounter as an immediate action, a naginata specialist may take an attack against an opponent who attacks him him. If successful, the attack deals double damage, as if the samurai had readied an action against the attack.
Greater Combat Style (Ex): By 12th level, a samurai has become a master of his combat style. He gains another ability dependent upon his combat style.

Daisho: Strength Of Two (Ex): If the samurai is wielding his katana in his main hand and his wakizashi in his off-hand, he may apply his full Strength bonus to damage on both weapons when he attacks.
Dai-Kyu: Guarded Shot (Ex): A samurai with the dai-kyu combat style no longer provokes attacks of opportunity when firing a longbow while threatened by enemies.
Iaijutsu: Improved Iaijutsu Strike (Ex):A samurai with the iaijutsu combat style deals double normal weapon damage with a successful iaijutsu strike. Extra damage, such as from the Iaijutsu Focus skill or a flaming weapon, is not doubled.
Naginata: Defensive Rebuke (Ex): If an opponent is damaged by an attack from the naginata samurai while moving (either because the target provoked an attack of opportunity from the samurai or because of a readied action), the target's move ends.
Warlord Combat Style (Ex): By 20th level, a samurai has become a paragon of his combat style. He gains another ability dependent upon his combat style.

Daisho: Flurry Of Steel (Ex): A samurai may apply his Dexterity bonus along with his Strength bonus when attacking with his Katana and Wakizashi.
Dai-Kyu: Ki Arrows (Ex): The samurai charges each arrow with his own ki, increasing its ability to strike and injure targets. The samurai gains a +5 bonus to both attack and damage rolls with that arrow. In addition, the attack overcomes damage resistance as if it were a +5 magical weapon.
Iaijutsu: Iaijutsu Might (Ex):A samurai with the iaijutsu combat style applies his strength bonus twice to attack and damage with his katana.
Naginata: Master lunge (Ex): A samurai permanently adds +10' to his reach with weapons.
Iajutsu Master: Quick draw feat when a Samurai draws the weapon of his chosen path.
Battle Initiative: As a Samurai increases his knowledge of battle, so does his reaction time. At 2nd level, his initiative bonus increase by 4 and every 4 levels after, his initiative bonus increases by 1 (+4 at 2nd, +5 at 6th, +6 at 10th etc.)
Kiai Smite (Ex): Once per encounter as a swift action, a 3rd-level samurai may concentrate his attack to strike with great force. After using this ability, his next attack deals double normal damage. Extra damage, such as the extra fire damage from a flaming weapon or additional sneak attack damage, is not multiplied.
The samurai gains another use of this ability at 9th level, and every six levels thereafter.
Third Eye (Ex):At 4th level, an Samurai can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A Samurai with Third Eye is also immune to surprise.
Staredown (Ex): A 5th-level samurai gains Skill Focus (Intimidate) as a bonus feat, and may attempt to demoralize a foe as a move action.
Ancestral Guidance (Sp): At 5th level, a Samurai may seek guidance from his ancestors. This counts as a commune effect that can be used once a day. A samurai can also seek guidance from other peoples' ancestors if they are available. This works like a speak with dead effect that may be used once per day.
Signature Weapon: The samurai chooses one of his weapons (must be one he has the Weapon Focus feat for) to become his signature weapon. The XP cost escalates with the weapon bonus gained from it's imbuing.
{table=head]Class Level | Weapon Bonus | XP Cost
6th | +1 | 40
7th | +2 | 160
8th | +3 | 360
9th | +4 | 640
10th | +5 | 1,000
11th | +6 | 1,440
12th | +7 | 1,960
13th | +8 | 2,560
14th | +9 | 3,240
15th | +10 | 4,000
[/table]
*A weapon can't go beyond +5, but it can have special abilities that are the equivalent of additional bonuses (Ex: +5 keen longsword)
Whirlwind Attack: A Samurai gains Whirlwind as a bonus feat at 4th level.
Power Surge: At 7th level, 1/day, a Samurai gains the ability to focus his energy and spirit as a move action. If he succeeds, he gains +8 to his Dexterity for a # of rounds equal to 1/2 his class level. After power surge has worn off, the Samurai is fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for 1/4 his class level. At 10th level, 2/day. At 13th, 3/day.
Improved Staredown (Ex): At 8th level, the samurai becomes even more intimidating. Opponents he successfully demoralizes with the Intimidate skill are shaken for an additional number of rounds equal to the samurai's Charisma modifier.
Mind over matter: Samurai do not need to eat or sleep very much. Sleeping 2-4 hours a day is more than enough, and one pound of food will suffice for as much as 3 days without significant hunger side affects. Additionally, poisons are half as effective against Samurai due to their discipline of mind.
Evasion: You gain the Evasion (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Evasion_and_Improved_Evasion) feat.
Ki Projection: At 10th level, a Samurai adds 1/2 his class level to any Diplomacy, Gather Information, or Intimidate checks he makes. At 14th level and higher, the Samurai adds his full class level to such checks.
Intimidating Glance (Ex): An 11th-level samurai can intimidate a foe with merely a glance. Using the Intimidate skill to attempt to demoralize an opponent is now a swift action for him.
Quicksilver: At 11th Level, the Samurai gains the permanent ability to move with quick bursts of speed, slicing with such a flurry of blows, that results in distraction leaving the enemy confused. When a Samurai's target has been downed, he may automatically make an attack against one adjacent opponent at full BAB as an immediate action. This opponent is automatically caught flat-footed.
Improved Evasion: When a Samurai reaches 13th level, he gains the Improved Evasion (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Evasion_and_Improved_Evasion) feat.
Intimidating Stance (Ex): A samurai of 14th level or higher may attempt an Intimidate check to demoralize all opponents he threatens in combat.
Greater Staredown (Ex): A 15th-level samurai gains an additional +2 competence bonus to Intimidate checks.
The Walk: At level 9, a Samurai's base movement speed increases to +10 ft.


At level 12, a Samurai can move at x3/2 movement speed when in combat.
At level 15, a Samurai can move at x2 movement speed when in combat.


Horde Killer: You gain a number of extra attacks of opportunity each round equal to your Dexterity Bonus (if positive). Also, Whenever you drop an opponent with a melee attack, you are entitled to a bonus "cleave" attack against another opponent you threaten. You may not take a 5' step or otherwise move before taking this bonus attack. This Cleave attack is considered an attack of opportunity.
Mass Staredown (Ex): At 18th level, the samurai gains the ability to attempt an Intimidate check to demoralize all opponents within 30 feet of him who can see him.
Uninhibited (Ex):


When wearing light armor, the Samurai no longer takes armor check penalties or speed penalties, can use all of his Dexterity modifier, reduces the armor's weight by one fourth, and retains all of the armor's armor bonus.
When wearing medium armor, the Samurai takes only half of the armor check and speed penalties (Rounding down), but can use all of his Dexterity modifier, with no weight reduction.
When wearing heavy armor, the Samurai takes full armor check and speed penalties, but can use all of his Dexterity modifier, with no weight reduction.

(Overall, the Samurai still takes penalties involving shields.)
Fear Mastery (Ex): When the Samurai draws his blade, opponents within 30 ft with 19 or fewer HD have to pass a Will save (DC 20+Cha) or be shaken for 4d6 rounds (panicked if they have 4 or fewer HD). A foe that resists is immune for 24 hours.
A master of fear is immune to all fear effects.
Ki Warlord: When a Samurai attains 20th level, he gains great notoriety and becomes known as a ki warlord. Other Samurai of the same alignment revere the ki warlord, and even those of differing alignments treat him with a measure of respect. He has the right of conscription over other members of the Samurai class and can socially bind them to assist the ki warlord on adventures or in the fulfillment of his oath. As long as the conscription does not violate the other Samurai's own oaths or alignment, the lower-level Samurai has an honor-bound responsibility to assist the ki warlord in his adventure.
Ki warlords inspire those around them. When fighting within 30 ft of a ki warlord, allies gain a +1 morale bonus to Will saves, concentration checks, and attack rolls (Lawful allies gain a +2 on these checks).

demidracolich
2010-04-23, 08:23 PM
You might want to make it in table format so space between the class features. I personally dont know how to make a table but many others can tell you. It is way to confusing to read through at the moment.

Jarrick
2010-04-23, 08:40 PM
Find Table Templates Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313)

Kinslayer777
2010-04-23, 11:45 PM
Alright I've made a proper table. Tell me what you guys think.

demidracolich
2010-04-24, 12:32 PM
You still might want to space between the class abilities and bold the titles because currently it is one giant clump of text.

Kinslayer777
2010-04-25, 08:43 PM
Alrighty. Done and done.

demidracolich
2010-04-25, 08:48 PM
Is it just me or have you not added combat style abilities?

Kinslayer777
2010-04-26, 11:23 PM
Nope. No combat style abilities. I just need to balance this specific class.

Kinslayer777
2010-04-29, 10:50 AM
Please guys, I need this for a campaign thats starting soon. Would really appreciate some commentary on balancing issues, if any. Thanks.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-04-29, 10:54 AM
It's fairly weak. It has the problem of granting only bonus feats and intimidate abilities, which allow it to become better at two things, and not be any good at anything else.

It's damage is pathetic without Power Attack, and its utility is not that great either.

In short, it's slightly better than the existing Samurai, but not by much. Bonus feats do not a class make.

Kinslayer777
2010-04-29, 07:51 PM
Added some new features with the knowledge that the class needed more damage. Most of the additions comes from the Kensai prestige class in Complete Warrior.

Zeta Kai
2010-04-29, 08:01 PM
Point taken, and appreciated. Any suggestions as to what would make it stronger?

Options, options, options. A good class is a versatile class. Doing one thing well is fine, but doing 10 things well is ideal. Yadda, yadda, yadda.

Give your sammy more & better things to do. Give 'em a mount (with mounted combat options). Give 'em defensive options. Give 'em aggro options. Give 'em single weapon options. Give 'em dual-wielding options. Give 'em parrying options. Give 'em other sword tricks. Give 'em a way to apply weapon enhancements to any weapon they pick up. Give 'em a good Will save. Give 'em archery options. Give 'em honor-based options. Et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum...

In short, give me a reason to play one for 20 levels. Compare to the Beguiler, the Warblade, & the Factotum, three classes that I won't dip out of the first chance I get, if I play one at all.

Kinslayer777
2010-04-30, 03:50 PM
Added the combat styles from a preceding homebrew samurai. Also took out the Bonus Feats and added some new abilities. Tinkering with the saves to make my samurai more dexterity based. Looking into defensive features. Should anything be taken out that I have up there already? Is it balanced?

also just finished changing the level 20 abilities so that it's more tempting to play the class all the way.

Kinslayer777
2010-05-03, 12:17 AM
Also, messing with the combat styles a bit. Any comments/suggestions?

Kinslayer777
2010-05-05, 08:00 PM
Feedback please, fellows.

Ponce
2010-05-05, 08:24 PM
The problem here is that it is mostly unnecessary. There's nothing here that can't easily be accomplished by existing material, and nothing in the historical Samurai that warrants its own class. He's a warrior, like countless others from many different cultures. He doesn't shoot eye lasers or fly. Why does he need THOUSANDS of special classes, let alone one? Good homebrew needs to have a purpose.

Also, isn't Ki a Chinese thing?

ninjaneer003
2010-05-05, 08:39 PM
looks nice but I have a few questions

-why does the samurai have move silently? sorry i just don't see samurai as being sneaky

-why gather information?

- what does True Evasion do and how is in different from Improved Evasion?

- i don't see how Selective Donning fits in allowing to remove parts of armor but still retain all of it's benefits with none of the penalties. If anything I'd use a part of the Pathfinder: Fighter ability Armor Mastery since it reduces the penalties of armor and increases your mobility. It seems to me that removing part of the armor would make it worse armor

-do you think at battle initiative is a little too much? could just add improved intuitive as a bonus feat or have it increase by 1 every 4 lvls instead of 2. so he'd still have a higher initiate than other characters. since your going to make him a dexterous samurai he's already going to have an awesome initiative anyway. I'm not saying it's overpowered I'm just saying it doesn't seem necessary since his initiative is already going to be very high.

-also i can see why a samurai can use heavy armor but why can a dexterous samurai use it? wouldn't he have lighter armor so he can use his dexterity bonus

ninjaneer003
2010-05-05, 08:46 PM
ya ki is more of a chinese thing i think but classes with the oriental flare use it as well and even in japanese culture i'm pretty sure they have some kind of internal energy that's the equivalent of ki if not the same thing. plus where do you see ki all i see is kiai smite or are they the same thing. The kiai smite was used in the original samurai class in the Complete Warrior book, only difference here is that it's set to per encounter instead of per day.

realbombchu
2010-05-05, 09:48 PM
The Japanese believe in a life force called ki. The Chinese have a very similar concept called qi or sometimes chi. The East Indians have a word for the subtle energies that make up your soul, but I can't remember if the word is Atman or Maya.

realbombchu
2010-05-05, 09:58 PM
I agree that your class needs versatility, and a samurai class is sadly not needed in the game. The warblade and to some extent the swordsage fill the role. I'm not trying to be mean. Switching the ability focus back to Strength is personally where I would start if you really want to make this class.

Kinslayer777
2010-05-05, 09:59 PM
looks nice but I have a few questions

-why does the samurai have move silently? sorry i just don't see samurai as being sneaky

-why gather information?

- what does True Evasion do and how is in different from Improved Evasion?

- i don't see how Selective Donning fits in allowing to remove parts of armor but still retain all of it's benefits with none of the penalties. If anything I'd use a part of the Pathfinder: Fighter ability Armor Mastery since it reduces the penalties of armor and increases your mobility. It seems to me that removing part of the armor would make it worse armor

-do you think at battle initiative is a little too much? could just add improved intuitive as a bonus feat or have it increase by 1 every 4 lvls instead of 2. so he'd still have a higher initiate than other characters. since your going to make him a dexterous samurai he's already going to have an awesome initiative anyway. I'm not saying it's overpowered I'm just saying it doesn't seem necessary since his initiative is already going to be very high.

-also i can see why a samurai can use heavy armor but why can a dexterous samurai use it? wouldn't he have lighter armor so he can use his dexterity bonus

Thanks for the input sir.

Good point on the move silent. i took it out.
Gather information? I suppose I was thinking people would fear them, so be more likely to lend some info to appease them. But, thinking about it, that's more intimidate so gather info is out.
Had not looked at Improved Evasion well enough. Thanks for pointing that out.
Selective donning: Before I change it, I wanted to ask if perhaps it would make sense by explaining it this way: The dexterity of a Samurai would compensate for the lack of armor. If that doesn't make sense, what about, instead of selective donning, the armor becomes so comfortable for a samurai that he has no penalties and yet retains his Dexterity bonus? jsut throwing thoughts out.
With the initiative, I guess the point is that, in my mind, the samurai should be first in battle 90% of the time. Is it too overkill though?
I changed the normal armor a samurai uses to light, but I still would rather keep the proficiency open if someone does want to tweak a bit. Does that makes ense?

Kinslayer777
2010-05-05, 10:01 PM
I agree that your class needs versatility, and a samurai class is sadly not needed in the game. The warblade and to some extent the swordsage fill the role. I'm not trying to be mean. Switching the ability focus back to Strength is personally where I would start if you really want to make this class.

No offense taken. But why would you switch the focus back to strength, can I ask? I want more of a swift striker rather than just a regular fighter.

realbombchu
2010-05-05, 10:18 PM
Strength is primary for most, but not all, frontline defenders. If that's not what you're making, is it a samurai? Maybe it's like a scout with an honorable outlook? I might have more ideas in the morning.

ninjaneer003
2010-05-06, 09:27 AM
Ok so long as the samurai has light armor i can see him not taking any penalties to armor since the penalties for light armor are all ready much lower. I mainly thought of a samurai wearing plate armor but still being able to dodge like a rouge and run like a monk. that being said why not also look at how the monk uses his AC bonus with no armor and his unarmored speed in place of The Walk. They add his wis to his armor class and a add a +1 every 4 lvls after i think. No armor with the fast movement suits the more rurouni kenshin feel you have going on. But ya it does make more sence to say that the samurai feels more comfortable in armor than to say that removing part of the armor brings benefits

And with the initiative. well an eventual +10 from the class skill +4 from improved initiative (if you take it) +dex (which will be high due to it being you primary stat) will probably look around a +20 bonus which makes his initiative more like acting first 100% of the time...no matter what happens. I played a character with a +8 initiative (4 from a 18 dex and imporved init) and unless i rolled under a 3 or 4 I still acted before anyone else by far. (except that beastling. stealing my thunder with being quick and what not)

Kinslayer777
2010-05-06, 12:29 PM
Ok so long as the samurai has light armor i can see him not taking any penalties to armor since the penalties for light armor are all ready much lower. I mainly thought of a samurai wearing plate armor but still being able to dodge like a rouge and run like a monk. that being said why not also look at how the monk uses his AC bonus with no armor and his unarmored speed in place of The Walk. They add his wis to his armor class and a add a +1 every 4 lvls after i think. No armor with the fast movement suits the more rurouni kenshin feel you have going on. But ya it does make more sence to say that the samurai feels more comfortable in armor than to say that removing part of the armor brings benefits

And with the initiative. well an eventual +10 from the class skill +4 from improved initiative (if you take it) +dex (which will be high due to it being you primary stat) will probably look around a +20 bonus which makes his initiative more like acting first 100% of the time...no matter what happens. I played a character with a +8 initiative (4 from a 18 dex and imporved init) and unless i rolled under a 3 or 4 I still acted before anyone else by far. (except that beastling. stealing my thunder with being quick and what not)

Okay, so wanting to keep the class versatile with armor options, what if I add the monk bonus for no armor, use the current selective donning BENEFIT just for light armor, and then perhaps only have half the armor penalty and speed infringements (rounding down) for medium armor, and all of the armor penalties and and speed infringements for heavy (So ALL would still be able to use full Dex bonus in any armor). just an idea.
I would like to keep the walk but deny the unarmored speed bonus that the monk gets. Does that seem overpowered?

I definitely get the logic of the initiative. Will change it to every 4 levels +1.

ninjaneer003
2010-05-06, 01:03 PM
I would like to keep the walk but deny the unarmored speed bonus that the monk gets. Does that seem overpowered?


I'm confused by what you mean here?

the selective donning looks better it now actually gives a reason to choose between light, medium, and heavy. There should always be advantages and disadvantages when choosing between these 3.

I'm also counfused about one thing in the weapons path. does the samurai level stack with fighter level in all of the paths or only in the Daisho (Katana)? and which of these do you plan to use?

isn't horde killer just a much cooler name for Combat Reflexes? don't change it cuz it sounds awesome i'm just wondering if there's a difference in the abilites

power surge: so the samurai gets to boost his strength like a 20th lvl barbarian multiple times per fight and suffers none of the penalties. I think this needs a little bit of balancing. but maybe have it have some kind of drawback so it's not used at the start of every single battle. The concentration check is nice but it seems to easy to reach for such a huge strengh bonus and at latter lvls is would become an automatic success. i'd say it would work better as a # of times per day ability instead of a multiple times per fight

curious why he has unarmed strike when he's focusing on a certain kind of weapon

Third Eye: don't see how the description and the actual effect match each other.

Quicksilver: you mean all enemies he ever hits are flat-footed.....no matter what. this probably need a clearer description. as is it says the samurai at lvl 10 could gets all automatic hits on any monk regardless of lvl unless they have some item that grants them AC.

it would also probably be a good idea to get evasion at some lower lvl than bumping it up to improved evasion later instead of just going strait to improved/true evasion

Kinslayer777
2010-05-06, 04:35 PM
I'm confused by what you mean here?

the selective donning looks better it now actually gives a reason to choose between light, medium, and heavy. There should always be advantages and disadvantages when choosing between these 3.

I'm also counfused about one thing in the weapons path. does the samurai level stack with fighter level in all of the paths or only in the Daisho (Katana)? and which of these do you plan to use?

isn't horde killer just a much cooler name for Combat Reflexes? don't change it cuz it sounds awesome i'm just wondering if there's a difference in the abilites

power surge: so the samurai gets to boost his strength like a 20th lvl barbarian multiple times per fight and suffers none of the penalties. I think this needs a little bit of balancing. but maybe have it have some kind of drawback so it's not used at the start of every single battle. The concentration check is nice but it seems to easy to reach for such a huge strengh bonus and at latter lvls is would become an automatic success. i'd say it would work better as a # of times per day ability instead of a multiple times per fight

curious why he has unarmed strike when he's focusing on a certain kind of weapon

Third Eye: don't see how the description and the actual effect match each other.

Quicksilver: you mean all enemies he ever hits are flat-footed.....no matter what. this probably need a clearer description. as is it says the samurai at lvl 10 could gets all automatic hits on any monk regardless of lvl unless they have some item that grants them AC.

it would also probably be a good idea to get evasion at some lower lvl than bumping it up to improved evasion later instead of just going strait to improved/true evasion

what I mean is that i would not use the monk bonus to speed, but would keep the walk. Does that seem overpowered still?

So you think it's fine that in any armor the Dex is unhindered?

Do you mean do the figher levels stack as in once you choose a path they can't cross-list? I'm confused by that question.

Added a second part to Horde Killer

For the power surge...should I add a higher bonus (+5 maybe?) to the DC each time he tries to use it after the first in a battle? Or what about if he could only use it once per fight?

The unarmed strike doesen't level with the class as with a monk. Samurai discipline their bodies as well as their melee technique. It's more of a flavor adding quality. Do you dislike it?

3rd eye: what's confusing? he can predict where they will move and thus have a better defense because of it.

Quicksilver: I agree it needs more description. Any suggestions?

Will remember to add evasion then. That makes sense.

Thank you for all this input!

ninjaneer003
2010-05-06, 05:35 PM
what i meant with battle initiative is to just have it increase +1 every 4 lvls and if you want you could use a character feat to get improved initiative. with the way it is o person could still get improved initiative on top of the +4 bonus that battle initiate starts with. and if you do just have your character use a regular feat to get improved initiative and don't add a bonus feat into that slot specifically to get it.

the walk doesn't seem overpowered but maybe have it progress to x2 speed instead of all of a sudden becoming x2. this way it's more integrated into the class. you could have his speed increase at some lvl to x3/2 his base speed and than at lvl 15 become x2 or even spread it out over 3 intervals of x4/3 than x5/3 and finally x2.

for the armor ya i think it's better. i'm still a little uncomfortable with there being no limit what so ever since that can be abused, like padded armor has a dex limit of +8 which is ridiculously high and not many characters can utalize all of it but it's still there to limit it. most armors if you add thier AC bonus and the dex bonus they allow equals out to be about 8 to 10 (with the exception of splint mail with it's weak +7 AC +0 dex) but you also have to take into thought that it is a very high level ability and comes pretty late in the class so i think that offsets it not having a limit

what i asked was as i currently looks only the people that take the Diasho path will be able to get the fighter feats like weapon specialization. so is that true or can the other paths take them as well. and why does this class have bonus feats it's got pleanty of good abilities

i like the unarmed strike, it fits very well just add why they have it into it's description so it doesn't seem like it was just thrown in there.

power surge: well i don't really see why it's in here in the first place. if he's a fighter that focuses on dex instead of strength than has an ability that increases his strength by A LOT at that seems a little incoherent. if your set on using it though lessen the bonus it grants to something like a +4 instead of +8. this ability seems similar to a barbarians rage so after doing something that increases his fighting prowess above the normal he would probably feel some after affects like being fatigued for a number of rounds. gaining such powerful abilities even with a +4 puts a huge strain on the characters. also instead of strength you could have the ability increase your dex. it wouldn't add bonuses to you attack and damage but it would go with the flow this character has. and at least make once a battle if not once a day or twice a day. As for how long it lasts 1/2 you class lvl is nice but 3+CON might work out better. power surging is an intense experience therefore characters with higher CON that can take more abuse and are heartier could probably stay in that state longer that others.

3rd eye: yes he can predict where a character will move but how does that help him determine where everyone will move and at that the more people present the greater his AC becomes to avoid hits from all of them. And the AC bonus that he gets from this ability is HUGE with it ending at a +8, monks get no armor at all and they still only get a +4 (+5 in pathfinder) at 20th lvl and from my understanding the idea of these abilities predicting where the opponent will move and "feeling the battle" are similar. The best way i can think of to execute the idea of predicting the opponents movements is to add your characters WIS to his AC and since he can wear armor probably not give him any other bonuses beyond that.

it seems to me that this character has a lot of qualities of the monk but can wear armor, wields weapons, and some different abilities

Quicksilver: can you give me a better description of what you want this ability to do. -permanent, # of times ability, Skill check to declare the foe flat footed. there's a feat that let's you attack the foe flat-footed if you succeed a certain check, and there's also feints which make a foe flat-footed for an attack

kintzo1
2010-05-06, 05:44 PM
So you think it's fine that in any armor the Dex is unhindered?

For the power surge...should I add a higher bonus (+5 maybe?) to the DC each time he tries to use it after the first in a battle? Or what about if he could only use it once per fight?

The unarmed strike doesen't level with the class as with a monk. Samurai discipline their bodies as well as their melee technique. It's more of a flavor adding quality. Do you dislike it?

3rd eye: what's confusing? he can predict where they will move and thus have a better defense because of it.

-I disagree with the armor proficiency of any kind. Maybe light armor at the most. And I liked what Colin, ehem Ninjaneer, said about if you break the armor up then it won't be as useful to the person. Either their dexterous and have no need for armor or they are a front line warrior that needs armor and no dexterity. Not both. You could use what Colin/Ninjaneer said and just use what the Monk does which is add your wisdom modifier to your AC. For a samurai to "feel comfortable" in the armor and therefore not have the penalties poses the question for me, "Why doesn't that work for everyone else who has to wear full plate all the time?"

-With power surge I think it should take a full round action to do because otherwise no one is going to have a chance to interfere with your concentration. The only thing that can, if it stays as a move action, is if mother nature decides to screw with you. :smalltongue: But that's if your all for the power surge, *cough*I'm not*cough* I just feel like it's misplaced with WHAT your powering up...

-Unarmed strike? Unnecessary. At least for the base class. If you wanted it as a flare for your character then I'm sure there's a feat somewhere for it.

-3rd Eye should at least take a move action to do. Or maybe a concentration check while running. Or something along those lines. If your in the midst of battle it's going to be hard to study everyone while moving to fight and fighting. How about completely changing 3rd Eye to you'll never be caught flat footed or surprised because of this "6th sense" you have?

ninjaneer003
2010-05-06, 05:51 PM
i just realized this class seems like a combination of a lot of the other classes with some intimidation abilities. Paladin smite. Ranger weapon specialization. Fighter Bonus feats. Monk speed. Rogue dodge. Kensai weapon. Barbarian rage (power surge). It's a good fit though just needs to be done the right way so it balances out

o and josh/kintzo1 i like that idea about 3rd eye, with that than even against invisible attackers you would be able to retain your dex bonus. plus i just looked this up. this i similar to the ability Uncanny Dodge with this you couldn't be effected by a rogues sneak attack unless he was 4 lvls higher than you and impoved uncanny dodge makes it so you can't be flanked. i think that fits the class a little better all you would have to do is add into the ability that the samurai could also never be surprised which i think is very appropriate

DM-"All of a sudden 7 orc rogues fall from the trees completely surrounding you"
Samurai to Orcs-"What were you trying to do, surprise me? I think not. (whirlwind attack!)

Kinslayer777
2010-05-07, 04:17 PM
what i meant with battle initiative is to just have it increase +1 every 4 lvls and if you want you could use a character feat to get improved initiative. with the way it is o person could still get improved initiative on top of the +4 bonus that battle initiate starts with. and if you do just have your character use a regular feat to get improved initiative and don't add a bonus feat into that slot specifically to get it.

the walk doesn't seem overpowered but maybe have it progress to x2 speed instead of all of a sudden becoming x2. this way it's more integrated into the class. you could have his speed increase at some lvl to x3/2 his base speed and than at lvl 15 become x2 or even spread it out over 3 intervals of x4/3 than x5/3 and finally x2.

for the armor ya i think it's better. i'm still a little uncomfortable with there being no limit what so ever since that can be abused, like padded armor has a dex limit of +8 which is ridiculously high and not many characters can utalize all of it but it's still there to limit it. most armors if you add thier AC bonus and the dex bonus they allow equals out to be about 8 to 10 (with the exception of splint mail with it's weak +7 AC +0 dex) but you also have to take into thought that it is a very high level ability and comes pretty late in the class so i think that offsets it not having a limit

what i asked was as i currently looks only the people that take the Diasho path will be able to get the fighter feats like weapon specialization. so is that true or can the other paths take them as well. and why does this class have bonus feats it's got pleanty of good abilities

i like the unarmed strike, it fits very well just add why they have it into it's description so it doesn't seem like it was just thrown in there.

power surge: well i don't really see why it's in here in the first place. if he's a fighter that focuses on dex instead of strength than has an ability that increases his strength by A LOT at that seems a little incoherent. if your set on using it though lessen the bonus it grants to something like a +4 instead of +8. this ability seems similar to a barbarians rage so after doing something that increases his fighting prowess above the normal he would probably feel some after affects like being fatigued for a number of rounds. gaining such powerful abilities even with a +4 puts a huge strain on the characters. also instead of strength you could have the ability increase your dex. it wouldn't add bonuses to you attack and damage but it would go with the flow this character has. and at least make once a battle if not once a day or twice a day. As for how long it lasts 1/2 you class lvl is nice but 3+CON might work out better. power surging is an intense experience therefore characters with higher CON that can take more abuse and are heartier could probably stay in that state longer that others.

3rd eye: yes he can predict where a character will move but how does that help him determine where everyone will move and at that the more people present the greater his AC becomes to avoid hits from all of them. And the AC bonus that he gets from this ability is HUGE with it ending at a +8, monks get no armor at all and they still only get a +4 (+5 in pathfinder) at 20th lvl and from my understanding the idea of these abilities predicting where the opponent will move and "feeling the battle" are similar. The best way i can think of to execute the idea of predicting the opponents movements is to add your characters WIS to his AC and since he can wear armor probably not give him any other bonuses beyond that.

it seems to me that this character has a lot of qualities of the monk but can wear armor, wields weapons, and some different abilities

Quicksilver: can you give me a better description of what you want this ability to do. -permanent, # of times ability, Skill check to declare the foe flat footed. there's a feat that let's you attack the foe flat-footed if you succeed a certain check, and there's also feints which make a foe flat-footed for an attack

The Walk has been changed. Tell me what you think.

So are okay with it not having a limit?

Hmmm I took out the bonus feats for the Samurai. As to the weapon paths, I would like to give them some type of initial feat at lvl 1 in preparation for their path. Any suggestions for the other paths as I think I have the 2 weapon fighting path pretty beefed up.

With power surge, I literally just adapted that from kensai prestige class so understandable that it needed to be tweaked. What do you think of it now?

Quicksilver: I was thinking it would be a permanent "all foes are flat-footed to the samurai" deal. Too overpowered?

ninjaneer003
2010-05-09, 06:40 PM
Horde Killer: You gain a number of extra attacks of opportunity each round equal to your Dexterity Bonus (if positive). Also, Whenever you drop an opponent with a melee attack, you are entitled to a bonus "cleave" attack against another opponent you threaten. You may not take a 5' step or otherwise move before taking this bonus attack. This Cleave attack is considered an attack of opportunity.


ok so you get a cleave attack as an attack of opportunity. The cleave attack can't be an attack of opportuintiy since it's not an "opportune attack" or the enemy doesn't provoke an attack by doing something that lets his guard down. an attack of opportunity is when an opponent lets his guard down to do something besides focus all of his attention on the battle right in front of him, that's why drinking a potion or casting a spell provokes an attack of opportunity. plus with quicksilver don't you already get an attack after you down an opponent?

Power surge seems a little bunched to gether as for when you can use it one more time per day i'd do 7th lvl 1/day, 12 lvl 2/day, 17 lvl 3/day. plus this'll make no dead levels in the build

with battle initiative if you want to leave it as is i think you should state that you can't take Improved Initiative as a feat of just add improved initiative as a ability at 2nd lvl and have battle initiative start increasing in +1 increments at 6th lvl and every 4 lvls after.