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Lysander
2010-04-24, 10:47 AM
This is attempt at recreating the fighter into something totally equal to magical classes in power. Want to know my secret? Follow what's badass and the class balance will follow.

The purpose of playing a fighter is not "to tank" or to "realistically simulate historical melee combat." It's to be super damn sweet awesome cool and kill hella lots of things with your freaking big blood covered sword.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present that fighter to you:

The Badass Fighter of Destiny

Alignment
Any.

Hit Die
d10.

Class Skills
The fighterís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Perform Sexual Prowess (Cha), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).

Skill Points at 1st Level
(2 + Int modifier) ◊4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
2 + Int modifier.

{table="head"]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1|+1|+2|+0|+0|Weapon Focus
2|+2|+3|+0|+0|Feat of the Moment
3|+3|+3|+1|+1|Destiny +1
4|+4|+4|+1|+1|Feat of the Moment
5|+5|+4|+1|+1|Badass Horse
6|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Feat of the Moment
7|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Destiny +2
8|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Feat of the Moment
9|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|Hot Chicks
10|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Feat of the Moment
11|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Destiny +3
12|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Feat of the Moment
13|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Killer Music
14|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Feat of the Moment
15|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Destiny +4
16|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Feat of the Moment
17|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Awesome Massacre
18|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Feat of the Moment
19|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Destiny +5
20|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Feat of the Moment

[/table]

Class Features

All of the following are class features of the BADASS FIGHTER OF DESTINY.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A BAD ASS FIGHTER OF DESTINY is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Weapon Focus
At 1st level you receive the weapon focus feat, since every fighter should have a favorite type of weapon.

Feat of the Moment (Ex)
Fighter feats no longer represent what a fighter is trained to do. Instead they represent what the plot of their badass adventure calls upon them to do, and they can change their feats as needed. A feat of the moment is a wild card feat, capable of counting as any fighter bonus feat you qualify for. A feat of the moment is awarded at level 2 and every even level thereafter.

Upon receiving a feat of the moment pick any normal fighter feat for it to count as. Each time you rest eight hours or more you may change a number of feat of the moments equal to your intelligence modifier to count as a different fighter bonus feat, with a minimum of one feat of the moment for a modifier of zero or less. Changing feats after resting is an instantaneous free action.

You may also change your feat of the moments during the day at any point by sheer force of personality. Each day you may change a number of feat of the moments equal to your charisma modifier, with a minimum of one feat of the moment for a modifier of zero or less. Changing feats this way is a standard action, and you may change multiple feats in the same standard action or change feats at different times.

Once changed a feat of the moment counts as its new fighter feat until you change it again. Feats of the moments copying a fighter feat can count as that feat for the purposes of any prerequisites, however you cannot change a feat of the moment while it is serving as a prerequisite. In the case of a permanent feat or class that uses the feat of the moment as a prerequisite, that feat of the moment is forever locked into serving as that one fighter feat.

Destiny (Ex)
A BADASS FIGHTER OF DESTINY is chosen by destiny. It's right on the label. That means destiny gives them a pick of a helping hand to make sure they find badass stuff to do and are badass when they do it. Destiny provides three boons.

First, a fighter receives a luck bonus to their gather information checks to find battles worthy of their skill (and only gather information checks for that purpose.) In fact, fate will conspire to inform them of worthy causes even if they aren't particularly trying to find them. This bonus is starts at +1 level 3, and increases by one at levels 7, 11, 15, and 19.

Second, a fighter is also destined not to die quickly and embarrassingly, nor are they meant to be weakened. They receive a luck bonus to any saving throws to resist any death spell, death effect, energy drain, or negative energy effect. They also receive a fortitude save with this bonus against any death spell or death effect that normally would not allow any saving throw. This bonus is starts at +1 level 3, and increases by one at levels 7, 11, 15, and 19.

Finally (this is long but hella awesome), a fighter is meant to wield super sweet magic weapons and armor. In fact, their use of a magic item improves that item's power. In times of great need any piece of weapon or armor they wield or bear with a magical enhancement bonus may act to aid them by casting any spell that item's creator ever cast before they created the item (the DM should develop a spell list for each relevant item that comes into the fighter's possession), with a few limitations. First, this effect can only occur for the fighter, cumulative between all items they carry, a number of times per day equal to their destiny bonus. Second, the maximum spell level the item can cast is equal to twice the fighter's destiny bonus. Third, it cannot cast any spell that takes more than a standard action to cast, or requires xp or any material component with a gp value of 1 or higher (otherwise it requires no spell components or focuses and it requires no holy symbol). Fourth, a fighter has no direct control over when a spell is cast or what spell is cast, or any special way of finding out what an item can cast. A spell is only cast when the fighter would otherwise be killed, immobilized, or taken out of the fight in some way. Regardless of what is cast it is always specific to that situation, and always helpful. Fifth, an item created by a divine magic will not cast spells to aid a fighter whose actions grossly go against the divine force's beliefs. Sixth, an intelligent item can choose to suppress this ability. This ability requires no action on the fighter's part since its the item casting it. For the purposes of these spells, treat the item as having a place in the initiative one sooner than the fighter. It can choose to cast a spell then or instead cast a spell later in the round as an ready action. Is this all a bit of a deux ex machina? Damn straight it is.

Badass Horse
A fighter's horse or other mount with DM approval gets badass in its own way over time. For each week a fighter uses or trains a mount they may attempt to teach it one trick with the handle animal skill, but with no maximum number of tricks based on the animal's intelligence. Any tricks learned past the animal's normal intelligence limit will not function at the command of anyone other than the fighter who trained them, but they can still be potentially pushed to do them.

Hot Chicks
A fighter is hella sweet with the ladies, dudes, or whoever they're attracted to. They may add their strength modifier as a competence bonus to all Perform (Sexual Prowess) checks.

You may use your Perform (Sexual Prowess) skill as a diplomacy check against any hot babe or dude of a compatible species, gender, and orientation. This check is still just rated PG, the check involves making sexy eyes at them or simply looking so muscular and hot they want some of it. But remember, it only applies towards winning over hotties.

Finally, when a hot chick or dude is sprawled on the floor longingly clutching a fighter's leg they receive +2 to their intimidate check. The fighter cannot take a move action in any round they use this bonus.

Killer Music (Ex)
A fighter's awesome deeds require sweet tunes to back them up. Any ally who uses bardic music to improves the fighter's fighting finds themselves inspired to play much more awesomely than usual. The bard's instrument becomes electrified, glowing brightly and crackling with lightning, and just sounds much cooler. The fighter (and just the fighter) receives an additional +1 modifier to any and all competence and morale bonuses granted by the music. The bard becomes surrounded with protective lightning while they play, dealing 1d6 electricity damage to any enemy who makes a melee attack against them. A fighter operating in a party without a bard might consider getting a bard cohort.

Awesome Massacre
This ability comes into play only when a fighter goes up against insurmountable odds. When fighting an opponent or group of opponents far beyond the challenge rating of the fighter and their allies, the fighter gains a vast number of temporary hit points that last until that opponent is out of the fighter. For each additional enemy or group of their enemies that the DM considers considers a fair match by itself for the fighter and their party beyond the first, the fighter gains temporary hit points equal to their current hitpoints.

For example, let's say the fighter is attacked by one dinosaur that's a fair opponent by itself. Then the dinosaur is joined by two additional identical dinosaurs. The fighter gets additional temporary hit points equal to twice their current hit point total. If one of the dinosaurs dies or flees the fighter loses the temporary hit points granted by that additional opponents presence.

A challenge only slightly above the norm only provides a percentage of your total hit points. For example if the fighter faces one equal opponent working with a weaker opponent or weaker group of opponents, the DM may elect to just grant a percentage of their current hit points as temporary hit points. This may require some ad hoc estimation on the DM's part now and then.

One important thing to note is that this applies to additional opponents above a fair challenge. You do not receive additional hit points when fighting one opponent who outclasses you. When fighting multiple enemies that outclass you, you still only gain one set of temporary hit points equal to your current health for each opponent regardless of how powerful they are.

This ability is unlikely to let you win any fight it applies in, but it lets the fighter last a lot longer before being cut down. It also potentially would allow you to survive against an endless stream of enemies...for a while.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So that's the BADASS FIGHTER OF DESTINY . To recap what you get:

*Ability to change your fighter feats.
*Random surprising magic from your magic gear to help you out of fixes like a forcecage or a plane shift.
*Becoming irresistible to chicks/dudes.
*Even more resistance to death magic.
*A sweet horse.
*Background music.
*Being able to kill a kinda infinite stream of enemies, before eventually going down in a blaze of gory. I mean glory. You know what I mean.

Heliomance
2010-04-24, 10:58 AM
First and foremost, let me say that this is a ridiculous class, and no DM would ever allow it :P

That said,if by some miracle they did allow it, it wouldn't unbalance the game. I have no idea how, but you've actually managed to make a reasonably balanced class, I think.

Niro
2010-04-24, 01:17 PM
This is how a fighter should be played.. Well done and have an internet kind sir/lady

The Tygre
2010-04-24, 03:08 PM
JUST WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?! That said, this is one sweet class. Props. :smallcool:

Milskidasith
2010-04-24, 06:25 PM
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A BAD ASS FIGHTER OF DESTINY is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).


Nothing new here.


Weapon Focus
At 1st level you receive the weapon focus feat, since every fighter should have a favorite type of weapon.


Feat of the Moment (Ex)
Fighter feats no longer represent what a fighter is trained to do. Instead they represent what the plot of their badass adventure calls upon them to do, and they can change their feats as needed. A feat of the moment is a wild card feat, capable of counting as any fighter bonus feat you qualify for. A feat of the moment is awarded at level 2 and every even level thereafter.

Upon receiving a feat of the moment pick any normal fighter feat for it to count as. Each time you rest eight hours or more you may change a number of feat of the moments equal to your intelligence modifier to count as a different fighter bonus feat, with a minimum of one feat of the moment for a modifier of zero or less. Changing feats after resting is an instantaneous free action.

You may also change your feat of the moments during the day at any point by sheer force of personality. Each day you may change a number of feat of the moments equal to your charisma modifier, with a minimum of one feat of the moment for a modifier of zero or less. Changing feats this way is a standard action, and you may change multiple feats in the same standard action or change feats at different times.

Once changed a feat of the moment counts as its new fighter feat until you change it again. Feats of the moments copying a fighter feat can count as that feat for the purposes of any prerequisites, however you cannot change a feat of the moment while it is serving as a prerequisite. In the case of a permanent feat or class that uses the feat of the moment as a prerequisite, that feat of the moment is forever locked into serving as that one fighter feat.

This is the same as a lot of fighter fixes. It helps them be flexible, and changing during combat is nice, but it's not exactly stepping up their power beyond maybe T4...


Destiny (Ex)
A BADASS FIGHTER OF DESTINY is chosen by destiny. It's right on the label. That means destiny gives them a pick of a helping hand to make sure they find badass stuff to do and are badass when they do it. Destiny provides three boons.

First, a fighter receives a luck bonus to their gather information checks to find battles worthy of their skill (and only gather information checks for that purpose.) In fact, fate will conspire to inform them of worthy causes even if they aren't particularly trying to find them. This bonus is starts at +1 level 3, and increases by one at levels 7, 11, 15, and 19.

Useless, and a good way to railroad the fighter into stuff by the fluff.


Second, a fighter is also destined not to die quickly and embarrassingly, nor are they meant to be weakened. They receive a luck bonus to any saving throws to resist any death spell, death effect, energy drain, or negative energy effect. They also receive a fortitude save with this bonus against any death spell or death effect that normally would not allow any saving throw. This bonus is starts at +1 level 3, and increases by one at levels 7, 11, 15, and 19.

I don't know any death spells without a saving throw, besides power word kill, which is specifically designed to finish off people you could, if even slightly optimized, one shot by the time you get it, and it's a ninth level spell. Drop the free saving throw (because it only really blocks a spell that's drawbacks of casting remove the need for one). The other bonus is fine.


Finally (this is long but hella awesome), a fighter is meant to wield super sweet magic weapons and armor. In fact, their use of a magic item improves that item's power. In times of great need any piece of weapon or armor they wield or bear with a magical enhancement bonus may act to aid them by casting any spell that item's creator ever cast before they created the item (the DM should develop a spell list for each relevant item that comes into the fighter's possession), with a few limitations.

Making the fighter into a caster is *not* the right way to do things. If you want a fighter to be awesome, that's fine, but so far he's only awesome because of numbers (still T5), flexibility (up to T4, maybe T3 even since he can switch in combat), and the ability to be a caster (Not a fighter thing at all).


First, this effect can only occur for the fighter, cumulative between all items they carry, a number of times per day equal to their destiny bonus.

That's slightly more reasonable.


Second, the maximum spell level the item can cast is equal to twice the fighter's destiny bonus. Third, it cannot cast any spell that takes more than a standard action to cast, or requires xp or any material component with a gp value of 1 or higher (otherwise it requires no spell components or focuses and it requires no holy symbol).

And they advance at the same rate as mages, except every four levels they get two spell levels. So yeah, full caster, with few spells per day and an unlimited spell list. Fun.


Fourth, a fighter has no direct control over when a spell is cast or what spell is cast, or any special way of finding out what an item can cast.

Oh please don't tell me this is a DM Fiat Only, No Players Allowed ability.


A spell is only cast when the fighter would otherwise be killed, immobilized, or taken out of the fight in some way. Regardless of what is cast it is always specific to that situation, and always helpful. Fifth, an item created by a divine magic will not cast spells to aid a fighter whose actions grossly go against the divine force's beliefs. Sixth, an intelligent item can choose to suppress this ability. This ability requires no action on the fighter's part since its the item casting it. For the purposes of these spells, treat the item as having a place in the initiative one sooner than the fighter. It can choose to cast a spell then or instead cast a spell later in the round as an ready action. Is this all a bit of a deux ex machina? Damn straight it is.

Which is *bad.* DM Fiat abilities are bad, explicit reasons to disallow you from using it are even worse, and free action casting is worse, though oddly enough, because of the initiative order the spells cast actually *can't* save the fighter from death blows since they only cast before he gets hit.

In short, this ability is awful. If the fighter had control of it, it would add a lot of power, although a fix that only makes the fighter into a caster still isn't great.


Badass Horse
A fighter's horse or other mount with DM approval gets badass in its own way over time. For each week a fighter uses or trains a mount they may attempt to teach it one trick with the handle animal skill, but with no maximum number of tricks based on the animal's intelligence. Any tricks learned past the animal's normal intelligence limit will not function at the command of anyone other than the fighter who trained them, but they can still be potentially pushed to do them.

This doesn't actually make a mount relevant in combat; it's still a low HD horse, although the DM fiat "Get any mount" is another terrible DM fiat ability that shouldn't exist.


Hot Chicks
A fighter is hella sweet with the ladies, dudes, or whoever they're attracted to. They may add their strength modifier as a competence bonus to all Perform (Sexual Prowess) checks.

You may use your Perform (Sexual Prowess) skill as a diplomacy check against any hot babe or dude of a compatible species, gender, and orientation. This check is still just rated PG, the check involves making sexy eyes at them or simply looking so muscular and hot they want some of it. But remember, it only applies towards winning over hotties.

Oh dear god this makes me want to puke just because of how juvenile this is. If your games are like that, sure, it just doesn't help the fighter mechanically at all.


Finally, when a hot chick or dude is sprawled on the floor longingly clutching a fighter's leg they receive +2 to their intimidate check. The fighter cannot take a move action in any round they use this bonus.

How does the person grabbing the fighter get a bonus to their intimidate checks? This is worded very poorly. And very specific.


Killer Music (Ex)
A fighter's awesome deeds require sweet tunes to back them up. Any ally who uses bardic music to improves the fighter's fighting finds themselves inspired to play much more awesomely than usual. The bard's instrument becomes electrified, glowing brightly and crackling with lightning, and just sounds much cooler. The fighter (and just the fighter) receives an additional +1 modifier to any and all competence and morale bonuses granted by the music. The bard becomes surrounded with protective lightning while they play, dealing 1d6 electricity damage to any enemy who makes a melee attack against them. A fighter operating in a party without a bard might consider getting a bard cohort.

Did you *really* have to add in a final line that suggests "DM, give him a bard cohort" line? Anyway, this is useful, I guess, but pretty weak; low damage to people hitting the bard, and simple + numbers aren't making the fighter a higher tier.


Awesome Massacre
This ability comes into play only when a fighter goes up against insurmountable odds. When fighting an opponent or group of opponents far beyond the challenge rating of the fighter and their allies, the fighter gains a vast number of temporary hit points that last until that opponent is out of the fighter. For each additional enemy or group of their enemies that the DM considers considers a fair match by itself for the fighter and their party beyond the first, the fighter gains temporary hit points equal to their current hitpoints.

For example, let's say the fighter is attacked by one dinosaur that's a fair opponent by itself. Then the dinosaur is joined by two additional identical dinosaurs. The fighter gets additional temporary hit points equal to twice their current hit point total. If one of the dinosaurs dies or flees the fighter loses the temporary hit points granted by that additional opponents presence.

A challenge only slightly above the norm only provides a percentage of your total hit points. For example if the fighter faces one equal opponent working with a weaker opponent or weaker group of opponents, the DM may elect to just grant a percentage of their current hit points as temporary hit points. This may require some ad hoc estimation on the DM's part now and then.

One important thing to note is that this applies to additional opponents above a fair challenge. You do not receive additional hit points when fighting one opponent who outclasses you. When fighting multiple enemies that outclass you, you still only gain one set of temporary hit points equal to your current health for each opponent regardless of how powerful they are.

This ability is unlikely to let you win any fight it applies in, but it lets the fighter last a lot longer before being cut down. It also potentially would allow you to survive against an endless stream of enemies...for a while.

And another "DM decides" ability. And it *still* doesn't move the fighter up anywhere on the tier list.

Recap:

Flexibility that helps out a lot from the feats are good. Every other feature is irrelevant, +numbers that don't increase the tier near full caster level, or DM fiat cast whatever spell he needs/get HP if the DM wants you/not cast because the DM wants to railroad you and your item now decides to hate you.

Even with all that, it's *still* not as good as a full caster. So this class manages to take the worst way to implement class features (DM fiat abilities) and still not meet the design goal of making it as good as a full caster.

Lappy9000
2010-04-24, 06:32 PM
I'm assuming that most Badass Fighters of Destiny are Funky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55828)-Aligned? :smalltongue:

pyrefiend
2010-04-24, 06:58 PM
Okay, Milskidasith, I can't believe I have to explain this, but I don't think this class is intended to be taken quite so seriously. Sure, it's up on the homebrew board, but not all creations are designed for use by very serious-minded and balance-concerned players or groups.

Magikeeper
2010-04-24, 07:25 PM
Okay, Milskidasith, I can't believe I have to explain this, but I don't think this class is intended to be taken quite so seriously. Sure, it's up on the homebrew board, but not all creations are designed for use by very serious-minded and balance-concerned players or groups.

I support Milskidasith's response. Perhaps the OP would want to change the class so that other players who want to play this class might actually get to. He didn't have to call that one bit juvenile though. Name calling is not very nice, and in that case the too-serious comment applies.

Anyway, the class was a funny read, Milskidasith has already given some good advice so....

Milskidasith
2010-04-24, 09:04 PM
Okay, Milskidasith, I can't believe I have to explain this, but I don't think this class is intended to be taken quite so seriously. Sure, it's up on the homebrew board, but not all creations are designed for use by very serious-minded and balance-concerned players or groups.

Just because it's serious doesn't mean it shouldn't be balanced. Especially considering it was explictely stated he wanted to balance it against casters.

Ashtagon
2010-04-25, 01:24 AM
I agree with a lot of what Milskidasith said, but the tone of the OP made me feel it wasn't a serious class, but put up for its humour value. Nothing wrong with humour of course, but it's not something I like to spend time doing heavy c+c on.

Octopus Jack
2010-04-25, 02:20 AM
Must... play... one...

Pure awesometacularness :smallbiggrin:

The Tygre
2010-04-25, 02:51 AM
Just because it's serious doesn't mean it shouldn't be balanced.

But... it isn't serious. :smallconfused:

Lysander
2010-04-25, 03:34 AM
For the record, I definitely didn't present the class seriously and there are many silly elements within the class.

I think despite that it's still a playable class, and far more powerful than the normal fighter. If nothing else, it's a fighter who can change at least two feats a day. That's still pretty good.

Some of the other class abilities are pretty silly obviously, particularly in the naming, but all are useful in some way. Some are more useful or thematic than necessarily powerful. For example the Badass Horse isn't meant to be a powerful attack horse. It's to copy the cliche of the traveling hero with a horse that obeys his every command. It's more of a roleplaying/utility ability. And the Hot Chicks ability, despite the silly name, is to copy the cliche of the warrior that gets the princess despite not being a charismatic negotiator.

I can totally understand an objection to abilities based on DM fiat. But when you get down to it, almost everything is subject to DM fiat, including what challenges the players face and how tailored they are to either be defeated by or defeat the players, even if they are within a supposedly fair challenge rating. Only one of the abilities here is purely DM fiat, which is the part of the destiny bonus that allows your items to cast spells. What the items cast shouldn't be entirely made up on the fly - DMs should think up an appropriate list of spells and limit what the item can cast from that limited list. For the most part it would function the same as having a cohort who can take no action other than casting a very small number of spells per day. Since the game supports have a full caster cohort I don't think this is such an alien or unmanageable game mechanic. If a wizard made the item and they had a huge spell list, then its basically like having a cohort who can cast limited wish or wish as a spell like ability up to five times per day, but only to recreate other spells. Wish is pretty good, but is being able to cast it five times a day better than being a wizard with four nine level spell slots and spell slots in every other level too? Besides, those can be cast at will, these are only an insurance policy against otherwise unavoidable doom. Partially this ability is to keep in theme with warrior fantasy. Heroes are always acquiring magic items that have properties that only function for them (since they are the chosen one) and those magic properties always manifest in times of great need to help save the day. This also fixes a major problem with the fighter, which is that too many spells simply negate their ability to be useful without any way of counteracting on their part. This fixes it. Forcecage? Disintegrate or dimension door. Flying enemy? Fly gets cast on you.

The Awesome Massacre ability is only partially DM fiat since it's not optional whether they get the hit points or not. The DM's only choice is to send unfair odds against them in the first place. How many hit points they get is determined not so much by DM fiat but DM honesty and DM ability to accurately gauge the strength of their encounters. Again this is mostly for roleplaying purposes. What fighter hasn't wanted to take on a hundred guys at once and remain standing?

In all honesty, I totally failed to make this as powerful as an optimized wizard because an optimized wizard is both Batman and a deity. It might compare better to other magical classes. The main goal though is to allow someone to play as the hero in a trashy fantasy novel, or as the illustration on a heavy metal album cover. I think I mostly succeed in that.

The Tygre
2010-04-25, 05:34 AM
The main goal though is to allow someone to play as the hero in a trashy fantasy novel, or as the illustration on a heavy metal album cover. I think I mostly succeed in that.

Ahhh... Pulp... The right kind. :smallbiggrin:

Milskidasith
2010-04-25, 10:00 AM
For the record, I definitely didn't present the class seriously and there are many silly elements within the class.

I think despite that it's still a playable class, and far more powerful than the normal fighter. If nothing else, it's a fighter who can change at least two feats a day. That's still pretty good.

Did I ever say it wasn't? I just said the abilities are poorly designed either by being poorly worded (people clinging to you get a bonus to intimidate you), or by being DM Fiat Only, No Players Allowed abilities, and that it doesn't stack up to a caster like you designed it to. If you were aiming for low T3/high T4 (excluding the DM Fiat only abilities, which I ignore because they can't be balanced), then I would say it's a job well done. Read your first line: Equal in power to magical classes. Magical classes are, in general, T2+ (excluding Truenamer and some of the "Only a very limited spell list" classes).

Personally, I think the other destiny bonuses (save the "I get saves on power word kill, an extremely limited, single target [rare for ninth level] spell that requires you to be in the OHKO range for even lower level blasty spells" ability) and the floating feat system are very good, and help the fighter to be around T4/lower T3.


I can totally understand an objection to abilities based on DM fiat. But when you get down to it, almost everything is subject to DM fiat, including what challenges the players face and how tailored they are to either be defeated by or defeat the players, even if they are within a supposedly fair challenge rating.

Tell me where, in the description of... say... Any base class or PrC, is an ability that works purely at the DM's discretion, with no ability for the player to control when it happens or how it is used.


Only one of the abilities here is purely DM fiat[QUOTE]

Actually, the "Only when the DM says, I get extra HP" is pure fiat as well, or it's based only on CR, which is *also* a pretty horrible way to design abilities.

[QUOTE]which is the part of the destiny bonus that allows your items to cast spells. What the items cast shouldn't be entirely made up on the fly - DMs should think up an appropriate list of spells and limit what the item can cast from that limited list. For the most part it would function the same as having a cohort who can take no action other than casting a very small number of spells per day.

It's every spell the creator of the item has ever cast. Do you realize how many spells people cast? Every magic item would, if made by a sorcerer, have their entire spells known list on it, and if you happen to have items made by a cleric or druid that can cast any spell, you can still, you know, cast anything.


Since the game supports have a full caster cohort

Leadership is not balanced.


I don't think this is such an alien or unmanageable game mechanic. If a wizard made the item and they had a huge spell list, then its basically like having a cohort who can cast limited wish or wish as a spell like ability up to five times per day, but only to recreate other spells. Wish is pretty good, but is being able to cast it five times a day better than being a wizard with four nine level spell slots and spell slots in every other level too?

No, because I never said it was. Please read my post before you criticize. You said you wanted a fighter in line with a full caster in power. This manages to be too weak to be that (not meeting your design goal) while destiny manages to be a bad ability because of the fact it's run by DM Fiat. If the fighter could choose when to cast spells, then it would be a perfectly reasonable ability, though it makes the majority of the classes power about casting, not fighting.


Besides, those can be cast at will, these are only an insurance policy against otherwise unavoidable doom. Partially this ability is to keep in theme with warrior fantasy. Heroes are always acquiring magic items that have properties that only function for them (since they are the chosen one) and those magic properties always manifest in times of great need to help save the day.

Which is great when the DM wants to railroad you, and not when you want to have control over your character.


This also fixes a major problem with the fighter, which is that too many spells simply negate their ability to be useful without any way of counteracting on their part. This fixes it. Forcecage? Disintegrate or dimension door. Flying enemy? Fly gets cast on you.

But only at DM Fiat; it's perfectly reasonable for you to have the DM say "No, the item refuses" if he wants to railroad you. That's the problem with the abilities.


The Awesome Massacre ability is only partially DM fiat since it's not optional whether they get the hit points or not. The DM's only choice is to send unfair odds against them in the first place.

Or simply say that the enemies are less than a fair fight, so they don't get the extra hit points.


How many hit points they get is determined not so much by DM fiat but DM honesty and DM ability to accurately gauge the strength of their encounters.

That's still fiat, much like it's fiat whether or not the DM thinks you need fly when you have a perfectly servicable +0 shortbow and nonmagical arrows against the flying blaster caster.


Again this is mostly for roleplaying purposes. What fighter hasn't wanted to take on a hundred guys at once and remain standing?

The ones that aren't capable of chain tripping+cleaving?


In all honesty, I totally failed to make this as powerful as an optimized wizard because an optimized wizard is both Batman and a deity. It might compare better to other magical classes. The main goal though is to allow someone to play as the hero in a trashy fantasy novel, or as the illustration on a heavy metal album cover. I think I mostly succeed in that.

You've failed to make this as powerful as a semi optimized sorcerer (By which I mean good spell and feat selection, but no one super powerful focus to break the game; the kind of guy that has a good cha bonus, has SoDs/SoLs/NSJSs targeting all saves, a few decent buffs, some defensive spells, and some utility, and probably one focus that can hurt most encounters pretty well), and it only comes close because of an ability that is pure DM FIat. Without your Fiat casting, it's T3 at best, and that's *only* because it can change a lot of feats on the fly so it isn't stuck into the "I only do one thing semi relevantly" hole most fighters are.

Lappy9000
2010-04-25, 10:32 AM
In all honesty, I totally failed to make this as powerful as an optimized wizard because an optimized wizard is both Batman and a deity. It might compare better to other magical classes. The main goal though is to allow someone to play as the hero in a trashy fantasy novel, or as the illustration on a heavy metal album cover. I think I mostly succeed in that.That sounds like better goal to shoot for. Designing a class with a wizard or cleric as the baseline power level just isn't good balancing (not to mention exceedlingly difficult to get useful critique from, considering the knuckleheads who sleep and breath Tippyverse shennanigans).

Lysander
2010-04-25, 12:20 PM
There are obviously a few sentences that need rephrasing. Who gets the intimidation bonus (the fighter or the person sprawled on the floor) I think is obvious in context.

Power Word Kill is rare but it exists. This basically guarantees a fighter a chance at resisting any magical death. You have to give them a saving throw or cut through their hit points. No Power Word insta-kill on them when they get injured. I agree that's a fairly specific limited bonus, but it's just one minor perk among more useful ones.

For wizards/druids/clerics with huge spell lists, yeah that's a lot of spells. But there is a level limit. So basically you could rewrite that ability like this:


Contingent Spells
Each day a fighter is considered to be under the protection of one or more contingent spells triggered by situations that would leave the fighter dead, incapacitated, or unable to fight. The contingency is limited to solving that particular triggering situation, and can cast spells that are not limited to the fighter's person. The contingency can replicate the effect of any spell with casting time of one standard action or less, no material component costing more than 1gp, and no xp cost, a level equal to twice the fighter's destiny bonus a number of times a day equal to their destiny bonus.

Obviously, there's room for railroading, and a DM can either screw you over or help you too much with this ability. If you have a good DM it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

As to item refusal, that only comes up with sentient items or items created by divine casters with an opposing ethos. So a talking sword that dislikes you isn't forced to act on your behalf, and if you're Grod the Babykiller the magic armor created by St. Pius the Holy isn't going to help you.

The extra-hp thing can also be stomped flat by the DM, but I'm assuming they're both good estimators and honest. This class definitely doesn't work with a dishonest DM, but I'm assuming competence and good faith on the DM's part.


That sounds like better goal to shoot for. Designing a class with a wizard or cleric as the baseline power level just isn't good balancing (not to mention exceedlingly difficult to get useful critique from, considering the knuckleheads who sleep and breath Tippyverse shennanigans).

The goal isn't really so much to fight optimized wizards (who would usually win). It's to remain useful (and badass) even in high level encounters against foes with unique magical abilities a normal fighter would simply lose against.

Milskidasith
2010-04-25, 08:21 PM
There are obviously a few sentences that need rephrasing. Who gets the intimidation bonus (the fighter or the person sprawled on the floor) I think is obvious in context.

But the exact opposite by wording.


Power Word Kill is rare but it exists. This basically guarantees a fighter a chance at resisting any magical death. You have to give them a saving throw or cut through their hit points. No Power Word insta-kill on them when they get injured. I agree that's a fairly specific limited bonus, but it's just one minor perk among more useful ones.

Making a spell that's completely crappy besides the one factor that makes it useful (no save) useless isn't a good design decision. It really adds nothing to the class.


For wizards/druids/clerics with huge spell lists, yeah that's a lot of spells. But there is a level limit. So basically you could rewrite that ability like this:

Still DM Fiating.


Obviously, there's room for railroading, and a DM can either screw you over or help you too much with this ability. If you have a good DM it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Even a good DM can't overcome the problem that the player isn't in control of the classes most powerful feature, and even a good DM can't read your mind and know what spell you want to cast, and even a good DM would be tempted to not use the one weakness the enemy has as your contingent spell.


As to item refusal, that only comes up with sentient items or items created by divine casters with an opposing ethos. So a talking sword that dislikes you isn't forced to act on your behalf, and if you're Grod the Babykiller the magic armor created by St. Pius the Holy isn't going to help you.

Yeah, that's still a *ton* of room to screw you over. If the DM wanted to, all your items are divine and they all hate you.


The extra-hp thing can also be stomped flat by the DM, but I'm assuming they're both good estimators and honest. This class definitely doesn't work with a dishonest DM, but I'm assuming competence and good faith on the DM's part.

Bad idea, and bad design. Again, would you really want to play a class where the most powerful thing was controlled purely by the DM? What if you played a wizard and the DM chose your spell list every day, and could choose to make them fail? That's essentially what this class is, just with a fighter chassis and an above average floating feat system.


The goal isn't really so much to fight optimized wizards (who would usually win). It's to remain useful (and badass) even in high level encounters against foes with unique magical abilities a normal fighter would simply lose against.

By DM Fiat, mostly. Even then, I'm not entirely sure what tier you're aiming for; if it's high T4/low T3 (again, not including the ability to get DM fiat casting) it probably hits the goal, if it's to fight actual full casting opponents on equal footing, this does not meet expectations.

Magikeeper
2010-04-25, 10:51 PM
Hey, how about we think about this class from the dmís perspective? Because to be honest, Iíd hate it if one of my players took this class. This is a class who will anger anyone at your table that hates DM fiat. ďAnyoneĒ being a sizable number of players. Also, the CR thing would be REALLY annoying for those of us who donít pay close attention to the XP system and/or use mostly custom foes. The CR system breaks down at high levels anyway.

As for the out-of-combat abilities, it would be better if he got an awesome horse. Like, if it just appeared. Itís not like it wouldnít fit in with all the other randomness going on. The awesome horse could appear and disappear whenever the fighter needs to awesomely ride, even if it had been previously killed. Add that to the skill trick stuff and at least the ability would be useful to some people. At higher levels it should fly! Like a phantom steed that appears whenever you need it.

Likewise, why not just have the music play whenever the fighter enters combat? Enough of this must-round-up-specific-allies-to-use-my-own-abilities crap. Surely the fighter is awesome enough to just have his theme play whenever he enters battle, granting him and his allies the benefit of inspire courage as though played by a bard of his level.

For spell fiat, I would first remove the whole based-on-creator-thing. Iíd just have the fighterís destiny supercharge the item within the level restrictions. Second, the ability is not determined by the DM. The spell effect is determined by the subconscious desires of the destined allies chosen by the fighterís destiny (I.E. the other PCs). If you really donít want to control your own class abilities you should at least respect players and DMs who donít want to use DM fiat. Instead turn the power into a really weird buffing ability with the restriction that it can only be used to save the fighter. The other party members might actually have fun with it rather than groaning about the DM defeating his own encounter... again.

The extra HP could be replaced with the ability to simply not die. I.E. The fighter can continue fight while below 0 hp for up to 1 round per class level per day (uses divided as needed), but only while at least 1 other ally is still alive and participating in the combat. Any ability or effect that would kill the fighter instead deals damage to him equal to his maximum HP total + 10.


There, a set of abilities that fit the theme of this class without the DM fiat.