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herbe
2010-04-25, 04:29 AM
How many undead can be controlled by a 20th?

In my oppinion:
A 8th Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror) gain Undead Mastery:

All undead creatures created by a dread necromancer who has reached 8th level or higher gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Dexterity and 2 additional hit points per Hit Die.
In addition, when a dread necromancer uses the animate dead spell to create undead, she can control 4 + her Charisma bonus HD worth of undead creatures per class level (rather than the 4 HD per level normally granted by the spell).
Similarly, when a dread necromancer casts the control undead spell, the spell targets up to (2 + her Cha bonus) HD/levelof undead creatures, rather than the 2 HD/level normally granted by the spell.


At 20th level with these feats(from LIbris Mortis):
Corpsecrafter............................Undead gain +4 Str and +2 hp per Hit Die
Bolster Resistance......................Undead gain +4 turn resistance
Deadly Chill ............................. Undead deal +1d6 cold damage on melee attacks
Destruction Retribution .............. Undead deal negative energy damage when killed
Hardened Flesh ........................ Undead gain +2 natural armor
Nimble Bones ........................... Undead gain +4 to initiative and +10 ft./round.

With 43 Cha(18 base,+2 star elf, +2 magicblooded template, +5 for 20th level, +2 lich template, +6 Cloak of charisma,+5 tome, +3 for age)


Now a Magic-blooded starelf 20th Dread Necromancer can animate and control (4+ 16 Cha bonus)/casterlevel = (20*20)*2(rod of undead mastery)*2(cast in Desecrate) = 1600 HD worth of undead plus 23 HD Controlled with Rebuke Undead.

And Animated Undeads gain +8 str, +4 dex, +4 hp/HD, +4 Turn Resistance, +1d6 cold dmg on melee, +2 natural armor, +4 initiative and +10 land speed moreover if one of the undead destroy its deal negative energy damage(which heal other undeads) +1d6 + 1d6/2HD.

Magic Items:
Scepter of the Netherworld (Libris Mortis) allows to rebuke (and one assumes, therefore command) as though three levels higher than normal. (9,000 gp)
Rod of Undead Mastery (Libris Mortis) allows the user to control twice as many undead than he normally could. (10,000 gp)

And there is a feat named Undead Leadership (with a minimal score:20+12+2):34
Link to Leadership (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#leadership)
135*1 HD+13*2 HD+7*3 HD+4*4 HD+2*5 HD+2*6 HD = 220 HD + a 17th level cohort.



Is there a 20th character which could directly control more undead?
So no create spawn, persuading, (guys, these are great but I search for a character which hold this power in his hand)

Johel
2010-04-25, 04:58 AM
How many undead can be controlled by a 20th?
(Impressive list of feats, class features and stuff)
Is there a 20th character which could control more undead?

A 20th level Sorcerer with the spell "Enervation", "Command Undead", "Control Undead", "Create Undead" and "Create Greater Undead"

"Enervation" means you can create Wights
"Create Undead" means you can create Mohrgs
"Create Greater Undead" means you can create Shadows

A Wight can create other wights by killing creatures. The resulting wights are under the control of the original wight, without HD limit.

A Mohrg can create zombies by killing creatures. The resulting zombies are under the control of the Mohrg, without HD limit.

A Shadow can create other shadows by killing creatures. The resulting shadows are under the control of the original shadow, without HD limit.

If you can control 1 Mohrg, 1 Wight and 1 Shadow with a regular casting of Command Undead and good charisma opposed rolls, you have the potential to control an infinite number of undeads.
"Control Undead" is there if you somehow lose control of your minions.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-25, 05:03 AM
With 35 Cha(18 base,+2 star elf, +2 magicblooded template, 5 for 20th level, +2 lich template, +6 Cloak of charisma)
Raise it to 40 with a +5 tome.


From there? I recommend Theurging after you get the Dread Necro Cha boost.

Add in Cleric for another 4HD / CL.

Check your magic items. There's one that doubles the number of undead you can control.

Now...

DN 9 / Cleric 1 / Mystic Theurge 10

Practiced Spellcaster x2, Sanctum Spell

CL 20 - DN x (4+15) = 380 HD
CL 15 - FS x 4 = 60 HD
Total = 440 HD x 2 (Doubled) = 880 HD - Under direct control.

Turn can get you a few more, Undead leadership as well.

Ranos
2010-04-25, 05:04 AM
Instead of undead leadership, why not get regular leadership, with all your followers being necromancers, each controlling their own squad of undead ? The key to an army is to delegate.

But yeah, the create spawn ability is your best way to accomplish this. It is also extremely dangerous. If an undead that's too high in the chain of command gets killed, it could devolve into a grey goo situation, eventually destroying the world.

hamishspence
2010-04-25, 05:09 AM
Draconomicon can be used for better zombies and skeletons (no Hit Dice limit on a zombie dragon or a skeletal dragon.)

a cleric with Desecrate (and an evil altar) can produce more powerful individual animated dead than another caster could.

That said, this would be more for very powerful single undead, than armies of weak ones.

Johel
2010-04-25, 05:10 AM
Instead of undead leadership, why not get regular leadership, with all your followers being necromancers, each controlling their own squad of undead ? The key to an army is to delegate.

But yeah, the create spawn ability is your best way to accomplish this. It is also extremely dangerous. If an undead that's too high in the chain of command gets killed, it could devolve into a grey goo situation, eventually destroying the world.

And that would be bad ? :smallbiggrin:

Completely agree with you.
But on the other hand, Necromancers tend to be above such petty concerns as world safety. If anything, the thought of thousands of wild undeads rampaging the world unchecked should convince wannabee heroes to COOPERATE with the necromancer to prevent such apocalypse.

herbe
2010-04-25, 05:27 AM
oh, these ideas are awesome thanks everybody

JaronK
2010-04-25, 06:21 AM
Endless armies are doable. Spellstitch yourself with Animate Dread Warrior. Done.

JaronK

SolkaTruesilver
2010-04-25, 06:44 AM
RAW days that any shadow spawned by a Shadow you control is under it's command, and thu, yours indirectly.

Also, a 20th level character would be a 16th level Lich, for the LA. So your argument don't hold

Shademan
2010-04-25, 07:25 AM
and a evil emperor of undeath would prolly have several officers and underlings, wjo in turn can animate their own troops.

Recaiden
2010-04-25, 07:54 AM
RAW days that any shadow spawned by a Shadow you control is under it's command, and thu, yours indirectly.

Also, a 20th level character would be a 16th level Lich, for the LA. So your argument don't hold

Dread Necromancer 20 gets lich benefits with no LA, over the course of the class.

herbe
2010-04-25, 07:58 AM
RAW days that any shadow spawned by a Shadow you control is under it's command, and thu, yours indirectly.

Also, a 20th level character would be a 16th level Lich, for the LA. So your argument don't hold

Look at Dread Necromancer which gain lich template at 20th for free.

Lysander
2010-04-25, 09:59 AM
Another way to get around the HD cap. Create intelligent undead and convince them to serve you through diplomacy. Sure they'll be evil bastards who would eat you if given the opportunity, but if you offer the appropriate balance of stick (I created you and I can destroy you!) and carrot (serve me and feast on the blood of millions!) you might be able to keep them in line.

SaintRidley
2010-04-25, 10:30 AM
Instead of undead leadership, why not get regular leadership, with all your followers being necromancers, each controlling their own squad of undead ? The key to an army is to delegate.

But yeah, the create spawn ability is your best way to accomplish this. It is also extremely dangerous. If an undead that's too high in the chain of command gets killed, it could devolve into a grey goo situation, eventually destroying the world.

Undead Leadership for an undead necromancer.

As mentioned earlier, Rod of Undead Mastery.

If your DM is willing to work with you and understand that Ghoul Gauntlet is stupidly written (seriously, it hurts your undead control pool). With a DM who is willing to make it not a trap, the spell should create a separate control pool from the animate dead pool (I imagine that must have been the original intent, otherwise why bother). Undead Mastery should, logically, work with this spell too. We're talking about a fairly hefty amount of ghouls provided the spell is made not to suck.

Il_Vec
2010-04-25, 10:39 AM
DN 9 / Cleric 1 / Mystic Theurge 10


I didn't understand how you fill the pre-requisites for MT... Isn't it "Level 2 arcane spellscastig, level 2 divine spellcasting"?

Is the DN both?

SaintRidley
2010-04-25, 10:40 AM
I didn't understand how you fill the pre-requisites for MT... Isn't it "Level 2 arcane spellscastig, level 2 divine spellcasting"?

Is the DN both?

Early entry cheese which I've never honestly bought. Involves things like Sanctum Spell and the like, I'm sure.

Flickerdart
2010-04-25, 10:42 AM
Raise it to 40 with a +5 tome.

Wouldn't you be able to get more plusses from age categories?

Il_Vec
2010-04-25, 10:46 AM
I like DN9/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-04-25, 03:03 PM
A few problems
Corpsecrafter and the dread necromancer ability both give a +4 enchantment to strength. Enchantment bonus's do not stack with one another. [the hp would, though].

Desecrate doesn't increase the number of undead you can control only the number you can animate at once like the deathbound domain.
The HP bonus from descrate would apply to the undead though as its any undead created in or summoned in the area.

So the undead would have +5hp/HD. or 6/hd if the area contained an altar.

Benejeseret
2010-04-25, 08:49 PM
Check out the [War] Casting feat from DR 309

You can research any spell with DM permission to make a [War] spell. Costly components but effects 25 TIMES more targets or vastly increased ranges/spreads.

I believe Summon Undead Horde (summon undead II turned into [War]) ends up summoning 25 undead/CASTER LEVEL and you control them all for the rounds they remain.

But any of the spells you are interested in can be used right up to Level 8 spells to vastly increase targets. Any metamagic marvels you might want can still be applied.

OldTrees
2010-04-25, 11:59 PM
+Int Race Focused Necromancer 5 / Red Wizard 10 / Necromancer +5

Deathwalker is an alternate Wizard Base class that would add more undead.

Int 18+2racial+6item+5levels+5tome+3age=39 [+14]

Spells per day 4/3+3/3+3/3+3/3+3/3+3/3+3/3+3/3+3/3+3 (not including bonus spells)

Important Class Feature:
Circle Magic: from Red Wizard [DMG] to gain caster levels up to 40th by sacrificing cohorts and followers spells. (I would limit this to one spell per circle per day.)

Feats:
Tattoo Focus
Leadership and/or Undead Leadership
Arcane Thesis (Command Undead)
Extend Spell
Easy Metamagic (Extend Spell)
Chain Spell
Easy Metamagic (Chain Spell)

Items of note
Ring of Wizardry II&III
Ring of Wizardry IV

Total Spells per day:
4/7+3/(7+3)x2/(6+3)x2/(6+3)x2/6+3/6+3/5+3/5+3/5+3

Total 2nd level or higher slots for Chain Extend Command Undead
20+18+18+9+9+8+8+8=98

Chain Extend Command Undead [cl 40] controls 21 mindless undead (no HD cap) for 80 days

80 days x 98spells per day x 21 undead per spell = 164,640 mindless undead (no HD cap)

Add in Animate Dead and Deathwalker if needed.
And if the army really needs reinforcements to make a dent (maybe in the blood war) there is always the Red Wizard cohort's Chain Extend Command Undead pool and their cohort's ...

If you don't need as big an army then you can cash in 1680 undead to regain a spell per day (regain highest level slots first obviously)

herbe
2010-04-26, 11:38 AM
Spells per day 4/3+3/3+3/3+3/3+3/3+3/3+3/3+3/3+3/3+3 (not including bonus spells)

How a 20th lvl wizard get 4 spell per day on all spell level A specialist wizard (like necromancer) get a bonus spell per day on all spell level. So it could be:
4/4+1/4+1/4+1/4+1/4+1/4+1/4+1/4+1/4+1 (not including bonus spells)



Feats:
Tattoo Focus
Leadership and/or Undead Leadership
Arcane Thesis (Command Undead)
Extend Spell
Easy Metamagic (Extend Spell)
Chain Spell
Easy Metamagic (Chain Spell)

Dread necromancer can also take these feats expect tattoo focus.



Items of note
Ring of Wizardry II&III
Ring of Wizardry IV

Total Spells per day:
4/7+3/(7+3)x2/(6+3)x2/(6+3)x2/6+3/6+3/5+3/5+3/5+3

"Bonus spells from high ability scores or school specialization are not doubled." its in the description of Ring of Wizardry X
So should be: 4/4+1+4int/8+1+4int/8+1+3int/8+1+3int/4+1+3int/4+1+3int/4+1+2int/4+1+2int/4+1+2int with Int39
More over a Dread Necromancer(with Ring of wizardry II/III/IV) have:
6+4 /12+4 /12+4 /12+4 /6+3 /6+3 /6+3 /6+3 /5+2 with Cha43



Total 2nd level or higher slots for Chain Extend Command Undead
20+18+18+9+9+8+8+8=98

Chain Extend Command Undead [cl 40] controls 21 mindless undead (no HD cap) for 80 days

80 days x 98spells per day x 21 undead per spell = 164,640 mindless undead (no HD cap)


Chain spell worth +3 spell level and extend worth +1, so subtract 1 from both bacause of arcane thesis (+2 and +0) and subtract 1 from chain because of easy metamagic. Overall it worth +1 so Chain Extend Command Undead is a 3rd lvl spell.



Add in Animate Dead and Deathwalker if needed.
And if the army really needs reinforcements to make a dent (maybe in the blood war) there is always the Red Wizard cohort's Chain Extend Command Undead pool and their cohort's ...


Finally, thanks for ideas but what the hell is deathwalker?

OldTrees
2010-04-26, 12:12 PM
How a 20th lvl wizard get 4 spell per day on all spell level A specialist wizard (like necromancer) get a bonus spell per day on all spell level. So it could be:
4/4+1/4+1/4+1/4+1/4+1/4+1/4+1/4+1/4+1 (not including bonus spells)


Dread necromancer can also take these feats expect tattoo focus.


"Bonus spells from high ability scores or school specialization are not doubled." its in the description of Ring of Wizardry X
So should be: 4/4+1+4int/8+1+4int/8+1+3int/8+1+3int/4+1+3int/4+1+3int/4+1+2int/4+1+2int/4+1+2int with Int39
More over a Dread Necromancer(with Ring of wizardry II/III/IV) have:
6+4 /12+4 /12+4 /12+4 /6+3 /6+3 /6+3 /6+3 /5+2 with Cha43



Chain spell worth +3 spell level and extend worth +1, so subtract 1 from both bacause of arcane thesis (+2 and +0) and subtract 1 from chain because of easy metamagic. Overall it worth +1 so Chain Extend Command Undead is a 3rd lvl spell.



Finally, thanks for ideas but what the hell is deathwalker?

1) Focused Specialist variant specialist: Sacrifice an addtional school and 1 regular slot per level. Gain 2 additional specialist slots per level

2) Tattoo focus is required for all members of circle magic. Circle magic is a great undead control multiplier.

3) Thank you for catching that.
Spells per day 4/3+3/3+3/3+3/3+3/3+3/3+3/3+3/3+3/3+3 (not including bonus spells)

Important Class Feature:
Circle Magic: from Red Wizard [DMG] to gain caster levels up to 40th by sacrificing cohorts and followers spells. (I would limit this to one spell per circle per day.)

Feats:
Tattoo Focus
Leadership and/or Undead Leadership
Arcane Thesis (Command Undead)
Extend Spell
Easy Metamagic (Extend Spell)
Chain Spell
Easy Metamagic (Chain Spell)

Items of note
Ring of Wizardry II&III
Ring of Wizardry IV

Total Spells per day:
4/7+3/(3+3)x2+4/(3+3)x2+3/(3+3)x2+3/6+3/6+3/5+3/5+3/5+3

Total 2nd level or higher slots for Chain Extend Command Undead
16+15+15+9+9+8+8+8=88

Chain Extend Command Undead [cl 40] controls 21 mindless undead (no HD cap) for 80 days

80 days x 88spells per day x 21 undead per spell = 147,840 mindless undead (no HD cap)

4) I forgot Easy metamagic would not reduce an ArcaneThesised Extend spell

To correct used the following Metamagic
Arcane Thesis (Command Undead)
Easy Metamagic (Chain Spell) +1
Extend Spell +0
any +0 metamagic -1

Remember Arcane Thesis only regulates the final spell lot must be at least as high as the original non metamagiced spell

Deathwalker: an alternate Wizard Base class from the magazine. You can find it in the crystalkeep base classes pdf. It gives +5HD/CLASS level. It was only included for completeness.

monkey3
2010-04-26, 02:29 PM
+Int Race Focused Necromancer 5 / Red Wizard 10 / Necromancer +5
...

I love your build. Sadly, Red Wizard requires Human from Thay, so it rules out +Int race.

Inspired by your build however, I'd loooove to try the following:

Human Focused Wiz3/Master Specialist 10/ Red Wizard 7 (You can take some RedWiz levels earlier if you want that Circle Magic sooner).

Thanks for the awesome Chain Spell idea on Command Undead.

OldTrees
2010-04-26, 02:55 PM
Thank you. I am glad that my time spent on finite undead armies paid off.

I had a few major transcription errors when I copied it over. (I think the race might be the last error.)

Probably not.

Human Focused Necromancer 5 / Red Wizard 10 / Full casting Prc 5

Int 37 +13

Total Spells per day:
4/7+3/(3+3)x2+3/(3+3)x2+3/(3+3)x2+3/6+3/5+3/5+3/5+3/5+3

Total 2nd level or higher slots for Chain Extend Command Undead
15+15+15+9+8+8+8+8=86

Chain Extend Command Undead [cl 40] controls 21 mindless undead (no HD cap) for 80 days

80 days x 86spells per day x 21 undead per spell = 144,480 mindless undead (no HD cap)

Any suggestions for a fullcasting prc to top this off?

Starscream
2010-04-26, 03:54 PM
Don't forget the General of Undeath spell. Increases the number of HD you can control by your caster level. Lasts 24 hours.