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Sir_Chivalry
2010-04-26, 10:11 PM
I have a player who is playing a paladin/rogue going into shadowbane inquisitor.

The NPC training her is going to give her a series of lessons and advice in combating evil and fighting villains, with a special focus on battling anti-paladins.

I'm looking as many quips and pieces of wisdom you guys can think off. What would a veteran paladin tell an up and comer?

To start:

1. Your enemies will use your loved ones against you

2. Never get ahead of the enemy, but keep pace. It is better to react quickly than not be where he is at all.

3. Never fight a villain on his own terms

4. Don't rely on your equipment, rely on yourself

5. Even naked and unarmed, a paladin still has options. Your grace will guard you, and even a stray stone can smite.

6. A lone paladin is at best headed for an early grave, at worst headed for damnation.

7. A child can move a brick, but not even a dragon can move a keep.

8. Any warrior can use his sword, a paladin uses his mind and his heart.

The Rabbler
2010-04-26, 10:14 PM
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and goodwill shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
-Ezekiel 25:17

edit for credit.

sambo.
2010-04-26, 10:16 PM
at least have the grace to credit that quote.....

WarKitty
2010-04-26, 10:17 PM
"Law and good should always be allies and never enemies. When they are enemies neither one is true."

"You will be as those you keep company with."

"Beware of alcohol, for a paladin should always have a clear mind."

Zaq
2010-04-26, 10:22 PM
You will be loved, hated, trusted, manipulated, feared, relied upon, mocked, defended, blessed, cursed, and lied to. You will be attacked from the front, from behind, from within, and from all sides. You will succeed. You will fail. You will see hope and despair in equal amounts. However, if you are a true paladin, not one of these things will make a difference in who you are and what you do.

Abd al-Azrad
2010-04-26, 10:41 PM
Every day, you will fail. You will fail to end evil, to save all of the world from corruption. This is the curse of passion- that no matter how hard you work, there will always be a new cause, a new evil- a new failure. This knowledge is the greatest weapon the forces of darkness will ever bring to bear upon you, the wrongs you did not right. Hubris, the belief that you are infallible, is the most dangerous trait you can possess, because it will allow this weapon to work. Recognise that you can fail, and take comfort in the knowledge that greater heroes than you have suffered greater failures- and emerged victorious. Your place is not to win every engagement, your place is to uphold the virtues of righteousness, and to keep your sword in hand, your love in heart, until the Gods themselves come to tear your life away. For your greatest weapon is not righteousness, it is not infallibility- it is devotion. It is care. It is passion to a cause that is beyond any of us, beyond the setbacks, beyond the failures and shortcomings. It is unending dedication to the one truth worth fighting for: that goodness shall prevail over evil!

lsfreak
2010-04-26, 10:46 PM
However, if you are a true paladin, not one of these things will make a difference in who you are and what you do.

On the contrary, if those things make no difference at all, the person is an empty shell devoid of the things that makes a human human. A paladin must use their experiences and emotions, but without giving in or becoming overwhelmed.

Anger and pain drive the will to right wrongs, so long as it does not turn to bitterness or vengeance or hatred.

A paladin must learn to constantly live in fear that - directly or indirectly - they will cause pain, to those they try and protect, to those they fight, to the families of those they fight. When it happens, the paladin must deal with the consequences of their actions, in order to better themselves, to strive to right wrongs. If they cut themselves off from this fear, they go towards the path of the fanatic, the antipaladin, one who is blinded by their own righteousness, one who is incapable of seeing the evils they wreak. Neither can they let this fear overwhelm them, though; it is easy to give up, believe life is evil and futile, or to waste away the days in grief at their own actions.

gorfnab
2010-04-27, 01:00 AM
"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering." - Yoda :smalltongue:

"I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain." - Litany against fear, Dune

When you think about, these quotes are really only useful until the paladin reaches 3rd level.

Studoku
2010-04-27, 01:02 AM
Get a ring of feather fall. At some point, your adventuring party will defenestrate you and it's good to be prepared.

Prodan
2010-04-27, 01:05 AM
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and goodwill shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
-Ezekiel 25:17


Lies. Filthy lies. (http://www.godrules.net/library/kjv/kjveze25.htm) :smalltongue:

The actual bible passage bears little resemblance to the Pulp Fiction quote.

gorfnab
2010-04-27, 01:12 AM
Lies. Filthy lies. (http://www.godrules.net/library/kjv/kjveze25.htm) :smalltongue:

The actual bible passage bears little resemblance to the Pulp Fiction quote.
The Pulp Fiction quote is a mix of Ezekiel 25:17 and Psalm 23.

gdiddy
2010-04-27, 01:18 AM
Begin everyday with five minutes of quiet meditation on a helpful, inspirational thought. (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000:_Dawn_of_War#Start_menu_and_Comma nder_quotes:_Imperium_Thought_for_the_Day)

Reflavor by replacing "Emperor" with a deity of your choice.

krossbow
2010-04-27, 01:20 AM
Damn, ninja'd

Ravens_cry
2010-04-27, 01:22 AM
Justice and Mercy. Can you balance the righteous opposites?

Darth Stabber
2010-04-27, 01:35 AM
"You must always fight the evil in men, never the evil men. There are some that cannot be swayed, but each who is brought to the fold is lost to evil and another shall now fight the iniquity at your side."

Or

"Always detect evil first, you waste fewer smites that way"

krossbow
2010-04-27, 01:40 AM
Just ask yourself one simple question:

What would Miko Do?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/InvaderFlak/PortraitbyYosai.jpg

You shall go far.

jguy
2010-04-27, 02:04 AM
You shall be judged on how you lived, not how you died.

Ravens_cry
2010-04-27, 02:08 AM
Just ask yourself one simple question:

What would Miko Do?
And then disregard almost completely.

You shall go far.
Fixed for you. Paladin does not have to equal complete and utter Lawful Stupid OR Stupid Good fool.
It is a hard and narrow road, but no one said it was easy.

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-27, 02:14 AM
Dealing out justice is your first, highest, and greatest priority. We are servants of law just so much as we are servants of good, so mercy, while admirable, is beyond your job description.

Hopeless
2010-04-27, 02:22 AM
Remember sometimes inspiration arrives in the most surprising of people,
For example that halfling whose been deliberately endangering themselves by entering melee combat even though a sorceror with only their limited magic for protection since you are garbed in full plate and grabbed the only protection ring that the monk hasn't already claimed and is actually doing a better job of being a paladin than you are...

Just saying, Paladins are supposed to be role models of decency not homicidal fanatics who make Miko look reasonable in comparison!

hamishspence
2010-04-27, 02:30 AM
Dealing out justice is your first, highest, and greatest priority. We are servants of law just so much as we are servants of good, so mercy, while admirable, is beyond your job description.

Celestia, plane where Law and Good are equally important- is referred to as being of both justice and mercy in Manual of the Planes.

Mercy is well within the job description of a paladin.

Amphetryon
2010-04-27, 04:36 AM
Prowess: To seek excellence in all endeavors expected of a knight, martial and otherwise, seeking strength to be used in the service of justice, rather than in personal aggrandizement.

Justice: Seek always the path of 'right', unencumbered by bias or personal interest. Recognize that the sword of justice can be a terrible thing, so it must be tempered by humanity and mercy. If the 'right' you see rings agrees with others, and you seek it out without bending to the temptation for expediency, then you will earn renown beyond measure.

Loyalty: Be known for unwavering commitment to the people and ideals you choose to live by. There are many places where compromise is expected; loyalty is not amongst them.

Defense: The ideal knight was sworn by oath to defend his liege lord and those who depended upon him. Seek always to defend your nation, your family, and those to whom you believe worthy of loyalty.

Courage: Being a knight often means choosing the more difficult path, the personally expensive one. Be prepared to make personal sacrifices in service of the precepts and people you value. At the same time, a knight should seek wisdom to see that stupidity and courage are cousins. Courage also means taking the side of truth in all matters, rather than seeking the expedient lie. Seek the truth whenever possible, but remember to temper justice with mercy, or the pure truth can bring grief.

Faith: A knight must have faith in his beliefs, for faith roots him and gives hope against the despair that human failings create.

Humility: Value first the contributions of others; do not boast of your own accomplishments, let others do this for you. Tell the deeds of others before your own, according them the renown rightfully earned through virtuous deeds. In this way the office of knighthood is well done and glorified, helping not only the gentle spoken of but also all who call themselves knights.

Largesse: Be generous in so far as your resources allow; largesse used in this way counters gluttony. It also makes the path of mercy easier to discern when a difficult decision of justice is required.

Nobility: Seek great stature of character by holding to the virtues and duties of a knight, realizing that though the ideals cannot be reached, the quality of striving towards them ennobles the spirit, growing the character from dust towards the heavens. Nobility also has the tendency to influence others, offering a compelling example of what can be done in the service of rightness.

Franchise: Seek to emulate everything I have spoken of as sincerely as possible, not for the reason of personal gain but because it is right. Do not restrict your exploration to a small world, but seek to infuse every aspect of your life with these qualities. Should you succeed in even a tiny measure then you will be well remembered for your quality and virtue.

-Brian R. Price

Deca
2010-04-27, 04:51 AM
Just remember one of the key concepts in the Paladin Bro Code.

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3005/brethrenbeforewenches.jpg

Project_Mayhem
2010-04-27, 05:49 AM
"Multi-class into crusader at the first opportunity my son, for they possess actual class features past level 6"

Name_Here
2010-04-27, 10:45 AM
I always thought some quotes from Hunter the Vigil were strangely appropriate for Paladins.

The one that always got me was: As one candle is blow out another is lit, the Hunter falls the Vigil remains.

There are several others in the book that's my favorite and the only one I could remember off the top of my head.

Mark Hall
2010-04-27, 01:21 PM
"Keep your sense of humor and perspective. Nothing drives people away from right behavior than seeing its champions being jerkwads with sticks up their bums, and nothing kills paladins faster than biting off more than they can chew. Do not ignore evil... but don't sacrifice yourself to it if it solves nothing. Mark it, monitor it, and bide your time. You are immune to fear, not sense."

Deme
2010-04-27, 01:32 PM
The Paladin must enter the world, to clear the land of the weeds of evil so peace may grow. The Paladin must take his sword where the innocent cannot stand against the darkness. Peace is the paladin's love -- but he must always go to where it is not. He is best placed where drawing a sword is not only an option, but a necessity, lest innocents be damaged.

It should be the dream of every paladin that he could create a world in which there would be no purpose for paladins, where he could have been a farmer and the world would be no worse, where no weapon would be needed to help people. It is an impossible dream, but the paladin is better for trying to make that dream true.

...That's generally the philosophy I try and work with.

Telonius
2010-04-27, 01:37 PM
The Laws of Ducks (http://www.bpd411.org/duck.html) can be a good primer.


Duck Law No. 1. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, looks like a duck and cooks like a duck, it’s a duck.
Restatement: All things are known by their attributes.

Duck Law No. 2. Even under ideal circumstances, no duck, no matter how noble or well-intentioned, can be an eagle.
Restatement: All things must be what they are.

Duck Law No. 3. A duck can pretend to be an eagle except in times of adversity.
Restatement: Pretense and adversity are inversely proportional; adversity reveals the true nature of all things.

Duck Law No 4. No duck may be an eagle until it abandons its webbed feet and bill for talons and a beak.
Restatement: All things remain as they are until the attributes that define them are abandoned. Then, and only then, can they evolve.

Duck Law No. 5. Ducks are noble creatures. They shall not be penalized in the eyes of other creatures because they are not eagles.
Restatement: All things are honorable if they are what they are honestly, even if they are different from you.

Duck Law No. 6. The greatest duck that ever was cannot fly as high as even a modest eagle.
Restatement: If one would soar with eagles, do not swim with ducks.

Duck Law No. 7. Ducks flock. Eagles fly alone. Ducks and eagles never mingle.
Restatement: Choose company wisely.

Duck Law No. 8. A duck’s quack doesn’t echo. No one knows why.
Restatement: Sometimes there is no answer.
["The Laws of Ducks" by Ken Fussichen - 1998]

Kris Strife
2010-04-27, 01:42 PM
Do good, fight evil, and don't be a jack-bloop about it. And remember, you can't spell Paladin without pal, make sure to act like one.

Cuaqchi
2010-04-27, 01:48 PM
Life is but the vessel for the soul; safeguard it, guide it, but do not covet it. Fear of death is what drives men to evil, and to accept the inevitability of death is to ignore the temptations of a false life.

Honour drives us; honour for one's god, one's family, and one's home. Always stand by this and you shall forever have a shield against the mechinations of the darkness around us.

Sacrifice is the truest test one's faith, if you can sacrifice yourself and your body for the preservation of others than no threat is undefeatable.

Strike only for the source of evil, not its branches, as the hearts of lesser men are prone to vengeance and to cut a branch shall grow two more in its place. Instead the tree of darkness must be uprooted and purified, cleansed of its evil, and if possible replaced so that the well it creates does not sprout forth a greater foe.

Melayl
2010-04-27, 02:09 PM
"Do Justice. Love Mercy. Walk Humbly in the service of you god."

"Show the greatness of your god by your words and deeds at all times."

"Remember always that none are perfect in the eyes of your god, including yourself, but all are loved by your god anyway."

Zeta Kai
2010-04-27, 02:48 PM
You shall go far.

Is that an explosion joke? :smallconfused::smallbiggrin:

AtwasAwamps
2010-04-27, 02:55 PM
“You are never alone. Even if you stand at the gate of hell with your companions fallen on all sides, you are never alone. Your god stands with you. Your god walks with you. You are united in the brotherhood of those who have come before you, will come after you, and strive alongside of you for the greater good. You are not alone and never shall you be alone.”

“You are not a shield. You are not a sword. You are not a weapon. You are not a tool. You are a living, breathing, walking, talking, farting, crapping, eating creature and you share the world with others just like you. At your absolute core, you are no different than them. The only thing that makes your flesh different from the next is what you choose to do with it.”

“You may die for your duty, for your family, for your country, for your beliefs, for your honor, for a million different reasons. Do not die for your god. Your god does not wish you dead. The greatest thing you can do for your god is to live and show others the path to a good life.”

“Respect your weapons. Respect your armor. Your faith will light the way through darkness, but your steel will help you rend it in twain.”

Starbuck_II
2010-04-27, 03:04 PM
With great power comes great responsibility.

Also: Some of these might be useful
21 rules of highly successful adventurers? (taken from Highly successful pirates)
1. Pillage, then burn.
2. An Adventurer in motion outranks a city guard who doesn't know what's going on.
3. An Factotum at a dead run outranks everybody.
4. Close air support covereth a multitude of sins.
5. Close air support and friendly fire should be easier to tell apart.
6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
7. Never turn your back on an enemy.
8. Everything is air-droppable at least once.
9. A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.
10. Do unto others.
11. Your name is in the mouth of others: be sure it has teeth.
12. Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Take his fish away and tell him he's lucky just to be alive, and he'll figure out how to catch another one for you to take tomorrow.
13. Don't be afraid to be the first to resort to violence.
14. The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more. No less.
15. A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
16. Only cheaters prosper.
17. If you’re leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger spell.
18. That which does not kill you has made a tactical error.
19. When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support.
20. There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload.'
21. Just because it's easy for you doesn't mean it can't be hard on your clients.

Beowulf DW
2010-04-27, 03:18 PM
"Let the one among you who is sinless be the first to cast a stone."

In other words: "Do not be too eager to condemn others."

"In battle, be ready for anything. Expect your opponent to use every dirty trick in the book and even the tricks that aren't in the books. This doesn't mean that you must fight without honor, but don't be surprised if your enemy chooses to fight like a bastard."

"Do not confuse your honor with your pride. One can be sacrificed, the other will require sacrifice."

megabyter5
2010-04-27, 03:27 PM
Make sure he really wants to be a paladin. I'd probably use a speech along these lines:

"You are not infallible. Too many paladins before you have seen themselves as superior to others. Every one of them has fallen. You will never be the master, for a paladin is ever the servant. To all beings with even a spark of goodness in them, a paladin owes them everything within their power. To those beings who have no such spark, a paladin owes them nothing but death. This is not to say that you should throw your life away. It is to say that you must fight tirelessly for as long as there is life in you to continue the fight.

Most of all, remember that even one step on the path of paladinhood is a lifelong commitment to the Code. You will never live like a 'normal' person. If you cannot truly dedicate your life to this, then you have no business with me. You should just turn around and never show your face here again. But if you know in the deepest, purest depths of your soul that you MUST use your time on this mortal plane to make the world a better place, then I will welcome you with open arms into our most sacred order."

TheThan
2010-04-27, 03:39 PM
If you have to ask if something is right or good… it probably isn’t.

Goodness before lawfulness, never lawfulness before goodness

The wrath of (insert dnd god here) is great, but his/her love is even greater

A chaste mind is a chaste heart

Power corrupts, never seek it out.

Mark Hall
2010-04-27, 04:14 PM
A chaste mind is a chaste heart

I think the value of chastity and temperance in a paladin are over-rated. Neither law nor good require someone to be chaste or a teetotaler. A degree of restraint? Sure.

jiriku
2010-04-27, 04:32 PM
"Suffer Not The Unclean To Live"

"Abhor the witch, the mutant, the heretic"

"An open mind is like a fortress with its doors unlocked and its gate unbarred"



Oh, wait, wrong game, sorry....

Ravens_cry
2010-04-27, 04:39 PM
"Suffer Not The Unclean To Live"

"Abhor the witch, the mutant, the heretic"

"An open mind is like a fortress with its doors unlocked and its gate unbarred"



Oh, wait, wrong game, sorry....
Yes, oh so very, very, wrong.:smallmad:

krossbow
2010-04-27, 05:03 PM
Yes, oh so very, very, wrong.:smallmad:


DO YOU DARE DOUBT THE WORDS OF THE EMPR-AH?!

Starbuck_II
2010-04-27, 05:06 PM
Always ask yourself: "What would Schlock do?" from Schlock Mercenaries comic.

Deme
2010-04-27, 05:11 PM
Never ask yourself: "What would Schlock do?" from Schlock Mercenaries comic.

Fixed for you. Schlock is an entertaining hero, but a good example of a paladin...Is almost the exact opposite of what he is.

Ravens_cry
2010-04-27, 05:16 PM
DO YOU DARE DOUBT THE WORDS OF THE EMPR-AH?!
Damn right I do.:smallamused:
I am not a Space Marine. I am a Paladin. Mine is the hand that Smites Injustice, mine is the hand that Heals Affliction.
Both the fist of justice and the open palm of mercy are at my side. I fear not your callous vengeance nor your gross fanaticism.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-27, 05:38 PM
Fixed for you. Schlock is an entertaining hero, but a good example of a paladin...Is almost the exact opposite of what he is.

Blasphemy against the holy Schlock. :smalltongue:
I think one should ask what would he do, and then consider whether the opposite is better.
Sometimes he does act noblely.

TheThan
2010-04-27, 05:40 PM
I think the value of chastity and temperance in a paladin are over-rated. Neither law nor good require someone to be chaste or a teetotaler. A degree of restraint? Sure.

Well I’m writing a campaign arch that uses a succubus as a main villain. Through seduction she’s forced a paladin to fall, and corrupted a high priest of Pelor. She’s also managed to infiltrate the highest echelons of political power and has the ear of the king and queen. She’s done all this by using sex, her seductive nature, special demonic powers (telepathy etc) and a ring of mind shielding.

So I’ll say that keeping your mind and heart pure is necessary for a paladin. I’m not saying that a paladin cannot participate in such acts, just that one should not hold things like lust in his heart, as it can corrupt and make a paladin fall. Sex can be pure, you just have to have the right mindset.

Thomo
2010-04-27, 05:45 PM
From the Wheel of Time series

"Death is lighter than a feather, Duty heavier than a mountain."
a'Lan Mandragoran

"The fact that the price must be paid is proof it is worth paying."
a'Lan Mandragoran

"Most of those we call heroes only did what they had to do"
Siuan Sanche

"To lead is to neither push nor pull"
Leane Sharif

"On the heights, the paths are paved with daggers."
Seanchan

"If you plan for the worst, all surprises are pleasant."
Gaul

maijstral
2010-04-27, 08:14 PM
From the Wheel of Time series

"Death is lighter than a feather, Duty heavier than a mountain."
a'Lan Mandragoran


Gaul

This is actually the First Precept of the Imperial Rescript to Soldiers and Sailors (軍人勅諭, Gunjin Chokuyu?) issued by Emperor Meiji of Japan on 4 January 1882.

Thomo
2010-04-27, 08:33 PM
That's nice

nyarlathotep
2010-04-27, 08:40 PM
"Remember you are a servant of good first and law second. One can atone for chaotic acts, but an act of evil closes taints one forever."

Zaq
2010-04-27, 08:49 PM
On the contrary, if those things make no difference at all, the person is an empty shell devoid of the things that makes a human human. A paladin must use their experiences and emotions, but without giving in or becoming overwhelmed.

Anger and pain drive the will to right wrongs, so long as it does not turn to bitterness or vengeance or hatred.

A paladin must learn to constantly live in fear that - directly or indirectly - they will cause pain, to those they try and protect, to those they fight, to the families of those they fight. When it happens, the paladin must deal with the consequences of their actions, in order to better themselves, to strive to right wrongs. If they cut themselves off from this fear, they go towards the path of the fanatic, the antipaladin, one who is blinded by their own righteousness, one who is incapable of seeing the evils they wreak. Neither can they let this fear overwhelm them, though; it is easy to give up, believe life is evil and futile, or to waste away the days in grief at their own actions.

Perhaps I should clarify. What I meant was that a true paladin never wavers from his or her path. Someone who is afraid of being hated, who is too concerned with being loved, who is unwilling to deal with the good and bad that their presence inspires in others, who finds too much relief in success or too much despair in failure... such a person will not make a good paladin. A paladin must believe in his or her cause regardless of what happens around them.

This is intentionally worded to avoid giving any hint what that path or cause might be. It may be the extermination of injustice at all costs, it may be the defense of all those who cannot defend themselves, it may be the role of one who must lead by example, it may be whatever. That's up to the player and the GM. What's important is that a paladin knows that while the details of serving a cause can and must change, the cause itself and the act of walking that path must not rely, for good or ill, on how others act.

Thane of Fife
2010-04-27, 08:49 PM
I think the value of chastity and temperance in a paladin are over-rated. Neither law nor good require someone to be chaste or a teetotaler. A degree of restraint? Sure.

Hmm, to quote the Crimson Chin:

You're very pretty ma'am, but my heart belongs to a woman called Justice!
But no, I agree.


And while I don't have my copy of the Deed of Paksenarrion on me, if I may paraphrase Paks:

Evil likes to work from the darkness. It is a paladin's job to expose it.

amaranth69
2010-04-27, 09:01 PM
Always remember that a paladin needs only one sentence: "I AM THE LAW!"

credit Judge Dredd, lol

Dexam
2010-04-27, 09:08 PM
"Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie, cheat or steal. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil. Never back away from an enemy. Either fight or surrender. It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found."
-- The Iron Code of Druss
from Legend, by David Gemmell

"Evil lives in a pit. If you want to fight it, you must climb down in the slime to do so. White cloaks show the dirt more than black, and silver tarnishes."
-- Decado a.k.a "The Ice Killer"
from King Beyond the Gate, by David Gemmell

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-04-27, 09:19 PM
I, as an Archpaladin, approve this thread.

Here's some paladiny words of wisdom I ended up giving with some of my characters:

"Discretion is the better part of valor. You'll serve the good better if you sometimes quit the field to fight another day, rather than throw your life away to salve your own pride. You are not a coward for choosing your battles and fighting intelligently. SO STOP CALLING ME 'BRAVE SIR ROBIN' GODSDAMMIT!"

Our bard gave my paladin the nickname "Brave Sir Robin" because she felt my willingness to avoid battles instead of going all kamikaze on evil was cowardice.

TheThan
2010-04-27, 09:24 PM
Always remember that a paladin needs only one sentence: "I AM THE LAW!"

credit Judge Dredd, lol


Or alternately

“I knew you’d say that!”

SmartAlec
2010-04-27, 09:26 PM
Never look down upon others; never underestimate the strength of the mortal spirit. You are the example, and if you be that example, you can inspire that light in others. Many can fight evil, but you can encourage folk to fight the evil inside their own hearts. It is one of your greatest responsibilities, and one of your greatest weapons.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-27, 09:36 PM
I, as an Archpaladin, approve this thread.

Here's some paladiny words of wisdom I ended up giving with some of my characters:

"Discretion is the better part of valor. You'll serve the good better if you sometimes quit the field to fight another day, rather than throw your life away to salve your own pride. You are not a coward for choosing your battles and fighting intelligently. SO STOP CALLING ME 'BRAVE SIR ROBIN' GODSDAMMIT!"

Our bard gave my paladin the nickname "Brave Sir Robin" because she felt my willingness to avoid battles instead of going all kamikaze on evil was cowardice.

Did you slew the vicious chicken at Bristle or wet yourself at the battle of baby hill? If so, that might be the real reason. :smallbiggrin:

Tell him Paladins fell no fear, but they do worry about consequences of attacking.

Kyuu Himura
2010-04-27, 09:45 PM
I am thinking of using this one for a lawful good samurai PC of mine, I'll lend it to you :smallwink:

"In all honesty, society is quite corrupted, whenever people see bad things happening, they will turn their faces to the side, they're all selfish and cowardly, and if given a choice, they will choose the side that's wining, and let's accept it, that is seldom the good side. I know this, I've seen this, I've been like this. And that's why I stand, that's why I bleed, because I was once a selfish coward, but I am no longer that, because I know people can change, I know they can achieve great and wonderfull things when they commit themselves to it, and that alone is worth fighting.
So, for you to know, you're not bleeding your guts out for a bunch of people because they are worthy, you are bleeding your guts out for the hope that one day those people will be worthy of the sacrifice of idealistic men and women like you"

Blue Ghost
2010-04-27, 09:52 PM
As a champion (albeit arcane) of Lawful Good, let me see what I may have to add.


When you have defeated all the enemies you see, the most dangerous of them, the one that lies within, is at its strongest.

No evil can be offered up to the name of Good.

Fight evil at all times, and when necessary use the sword.

Love is your greatest weapon, which can accomplish what a thousand swords cannot.

Examine yourself to see that your motives are pure.

Without faith and hope, you will fall.

You are a servant in the role that has been given to you. Do not try to be more.

Do not spurn the victories of Good, though they come from another's hand.

Let not hatred of the enemy take root. Endure in love, even in war.

Prudence is a virtue.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-04-27, 09:57 PM
Did you slew the vicious chicken at Bristle or wet yourself at the battle of baby hill? If so, that might be the real reason. :smallbiggrin:

Tell him Paladins fell no fear, but they do worry about consequences of attacking.

No, we never ran into any Chickens of Bristol or went to Badon Hill. We were busy fighting robots in Martian tripods.

White Blade
2010-04-27, 10:07 PM
First and foremost, you must know pity. You must have compassion on those who are weak. No amount of strength is a substitute for this simple virtue.

You must have hope that victory is possible, without which nothing can be done or is worth doing.

There will be times when your heart falters but your hands must not. Remember that charity is a virtue, not an emotion, and that even on your darkest day it is expected of you.

This moment is the only one that is real, though its consequences will last forever. Do not do evil in hope for future good.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-04-27, 10:23 PM
I think compassion would be a better word than pity. Pity implies condescension, which is a big no-no for any self-respecting paladin.

White Blade
2010-04-27, 10:53 PM
I think compassion would be a better word than pity. Pity implies condescension, which is a big no-no for any self-respecting paladin.

Compassion has too much dignity to it these days, which is why I used pity. Pity is specifically about reaching down to other people's level and feeling for their pain and their follies, which makes it fundamentally a humble virtue. But you are reaching down, that's what makes it pity. A paladin has probably never worked as a street prostitute, but they can imagine what it might be like to experience such wretchedness and feel pity and not judgment.

EDIT:As a side note, I now have a strong urge to play former prostitute Paladin.

sambo.
2010-04-27, 10:55 PM
1. Pillage, then burn.
<snip>
16. Only cheaters prosper.

someone just lost their LG Paladinhood.....

Renegade Paladin
2010-04-27, 11:02 PM
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and goodwill shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
-Ezekiel 25:17

edit for credit.
Which is not what Ezekiel 25:17 actually says. :smalltongue: I'd actually recommend the 101st Psalm.

Ravens_cry
2010-04-27, 11:08 PM
Which is not what Ezekiel 25:17 actually says. :smalltongue: I'd actually recommend the 101st Psalm.
1 Corinthians 13. Some translations say Love, others Charity as Love is such an ambiguous, multihued word.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-04-27, 11:10 PM
Compassion has too much dignity to it these days, which is why I used pity. Pity is specifically about reaching down to other people's level and feeling for their pain and their follies, which makes it fundamentally a humble virtue. But you are reaching down, that's what makes it pity. A paladin has probably never worked as a street prostitute, but they can imagine what it might be like to experience such wretchedness and feel pity and not judgment.

EDIT:As a side note, I now have a strong urge to play former prostitute Paladin.

If that's true, then why is pity such a reviled "virtue" these days? Why do people say things like "I don't need your pity?" Every time I've encountered the word pity, it seems to be synonomous with arrogance and condescension. That when someone pities someone, they feel sorry for them, while they are so much better than they, and thus they feel "obligated" to do token nice things for their "lessers."

Renegade Paladin
2010-04-27, 11:13 PM
Did you slew the vicious chicken at Bristle or wet yourself at the battle of baby hill? If so, that might be the real reason. :smallbiggrin:
Bristol and Badon Hill. :smalltongue:

SmartAlec
2010-04-27, 11:14 PM
Compassion has too much dignity to it these days, which is why I used pity. Pity is specifically about reaching down to other people's level and feeling for their pain and their follies, which makes it fundamentally a humble virtue.

Not quite humble - by reaching down, one is putting oneself above, which would seem to me to be the opposite of humility.

Cute_Riolu
2010-04-27, 11:15 PM
Use the word empathy, then, if neither of those fit.

White Blade
2010-04-27, 11:38 PM
If that's true, then why is pity such a reviled "virtue" these days? Why do people say things like "I don't need your pity?" Every time I've encountered the word pity, it seems to be synonomous with arrogance and condescension. That when someone pities someone, they feel sorry for them, while they are so much better than they, and thus they feel "obligated" to do token nice things for their "lessers."

People have trouble accepting pity because it isn't given based on their worth but on their need. It reaches down with a compassion that gives to those who don't deserve it, precisely because that lack of deserving it makes them need it. I know in the times when I raged at others' pity on me, it was precisely the time that I needed it most. We all have pity on other people and other people have pity on us, that's how we function.

I'd say that being humble is fundamentally about lowering yourself. A peasant who treats a king as his equal is an arrogant peasant, but a king who treats a peasant as his equal is an humble king. When we are humble, it isn't because we somehow start off low because of our humility, we humble ourselves by reaching down and becoming lower than we have to be, hence why I said I thought pity was a fundamentally humble virtue.

Project_Mayhem
2010-04-28, 04:38 AM
A peasant who treats a king as his equal is an arrogant peasant

Or a proto-socialist. I like this peasant guy your describing. He bucks the system.

Deca
2010-04-28, 04:43 AM
Or a proto-socialist. I like this peasant guy your describing. He bucks the system.

'Help, Help! I'm being opressed!'

Mark Hall
2010-04-28, 11:01 AM
Well I’m writing a campaign arch that uses a succubus as a main villain. Through seduction she’s forced a paladin to fall, and corrupted a high priest of Pelor. She’s also managed to infiltrate the highest echelons of political power and has the ear of the king and queen. She’s done all this by using sex, her seductive nature, special demonic powers (telepathy etc) and a ring of mind shielding.

So I’ll say that keeping your mind and heart pure is necessary for a paladin. I’m not saying that a paladin cannot participate in such acts, just that one should not hold things like lust in his heart, as it can corrupt and make a paladin fall. Sex can be pure, you just have to have the right mindset.

See, that's not the fault of sex... that's the fault a demon who specifically corrupted them. It could have been done through a love of food, or drink, or pretty much anything that is not bad in and of itself, but can be bad when done for the wrong reasons, or in excess. Their problem was a lack of self-reflection to say "I really like this, but what is happening because of it", not a thought that goes "Boobies are cool, and I want to have more of them in my life." A dedicated demon tempter is not going to fail just because she can't use sex... if she does, she sucks at her job. You find your target's vice, and exploit that.

I don't think sex needs to be pure for a paladin to engage in it. It can be fun... party A and party B are both willing, consenting adults, who know that this is an enjoyable past-time. It just needs to be cloaked in no illusions. This doesn't only include the shape-changing nature of a succubus or charm magics, but simple lies like "I love you" or "Of course I'm gonna stay around."

Starbuck_II
2010-04-28, 11:04 AM
A dedicated demon tempter is not going to fail just because she can't use sex... if she does, she sucks at her job. You find your target's vice, and exploit that.

I don't think sex needs to be pure for a paladin to engage in it. It can be fun... party A and party B are both willing, consenting adults, who know that this is an enjoyable past-time. It just needs to be cloaked in no illusions. This doesn't only include the shape-changing nature of a succubus or charm magics, but simple lies like "I love you" or "Of course I'm gonna stay around."

I see what you did there. :smallbiggrin:
Yeah, a Pally should visit every brothel to heal the diseased ladies and partake of them.

Mark Hall
2010-04-28, 11:18 AM
I see what you did there. :smallbiggrin:
Yeah, a Pally should visit every brothel to heal the diseased ladies and partake of them.

Didn't mean it quite that literally. :smallwink: Nor do I say that a Paladin should be whoring it up every chance he gets... but I don't see anything in Lawful or Good behavior that prevents him from doing so (assuming prostitution is legal, and the woman in question is willingly in the trade).

Learnedguy
2010-04-28, 11:25 AM
Just remember that real paladins always pick the third option.

paddyfool
2010-04-28, 11:30 AM
"Guide your hands with compassion and consideration; guard your speech with honesty and humility; fill your heart with courage and hope; protect others with strength and mercy; and in all your doings, uphold honour and integrity. This is the way to kindle the light in the hearts of men."

Project_Mayhem
2010-04-28, 11:32 AM
Just remember that real paladins always pick the third option.

"Listen Paladin, you have two options. Either give this little girl an ice-cream, or pet this kitten"

*Paladin draws sword*

Starbuck_II
2010-04-28, 11:35 AM
I hope that means he slays the ice cream.

AtwasAwamps
2010-04-28, 11:40 AM
I hope that means he slays the ice cream.

SMITE CHOCOLATE!

Amiel
2010-04-28, 11:42 AM
It is better to serve in Heaven than to reign in Hell.

paddyfool
2010-04-28, 11:43 AM
"Listen Paladin, you have two options. Either give this little girl an ice-cream, or pet this kitten"


Thri-keen Paladin does both :smallwink:

Comet
2010-04-28, 11:43 AM
SMITE CHOCOLATE!

That is so very easy to read as an offensive remark. Just sayin' :smalltongue:

My paladins tend to live by a relatively simple code:
Aim to bend, but never break.
Live every day so that you can wake up in the morning and look yourself or your god in the eyes without feeling guilt or regret.

AtwasAwamps
2010-04-28, 11:46 AM
That is so very easy to read as an offensive remark. Just sayin' :smalltongue:



SMITE WILLFUL MISINTERPRETATIONS!

AND SPRINKLES!

(SPRINKLES IS THE KITTEN!)

TheThan
2010-04-28, 11:58 AM
See, that's not the fault of sex... that's the fault a demon who specifically corrupted them. It could have been done through a love of food, or drink, or pretty much anything that is not bad in and of itself, but can be bad when done for the wrong reasons, or in excess. Their problem was a lack of self-reflection to say "I really like this, but what is happening because of it", not a thought that goes "Boobies are cool, and I want to have more of them in my life." A dedicated demon tempter is not going to fail just because she can't use sex... if she does, she sucks at her job. You find your target's vice, and exploit that.

I don't think sex needs to be pure for a paladin to engage in it. It can be fun... party A and party B are both willing, consenting adults, who know that this is an enjoyable past-time. It just needs to be cloaked in no illusions. This doesn't only include the shape-changing nature of a succubus or charm magics, but simple lies like "I love you" or "Of course I'm gonna stay around."

You know, I think we’re agreeing with each other in a weird roundabout way. Especially when you consider the context I wrote that saying in could very much mean anything.

Like you say, a person could lust after anything. Sex, power and wealth are probably the three most common. Any seducer worth her salt is going to exploit any weakness she finds.

So, “A chaste mind is a chaste heart”, could easily refer to vices and lust in general and not be restricted to just sex. Naturally paladins are human(oid) and they are going to desire these things to some extend, so having these things is not necessarily a bad thing. I mean, paladins go on adventures and gain wealth and power, and not all of them fall? I see it as a warning about holding lust in your heart and mind.


I see what you did there. :smallbiggrin:
Yeah, a Pally should visit every brothel to heal the diseased ladies and partake of them.

Haha

The Glyphstone
2010-04-28, 12:10 PM
"Drink, wealth, women - none are the province of fiends alone. Worldly pleasures must be moderated, but they need not be forsaken; he who isolates himself from the world forgets why it needs to be saved."

Beowulf DW
2010-04-28, 12:18 PM
This is actually the First Precept of the Imperial Rescript to Soldiers and Sailors (軍人勅諭, Gunjin Chokuyu?) issued by Emperor Meiji of Japan on 4 January 1882.

I was going to say something about that, but I wasn't sure.

Since it came from Imperial Japan, I'm unsure whether there's any truth to that particular line. Then again, that might be my bias against brutal imperial-facist nations rising up.

Just because the messenger is flawed doesn't mean that the message lacks truth, right?

hamishspence
2010-04-28, 12:19 PM
Defenders of the Faith had quite a lot to say on the paladin:


Refusing to lie, cheat, or use poison doesn't limit you andd your allies to frontal assaults in broad daylight, either. You are a trained warrior. Set up an attack from an unexpected direction, lure opponents onto unfavorable ground, create flanking opportunities. Be prepared to look at the tactical situation, and be sure to ask your companions for their suggestions, they might surprise you.

Then again, your higher calling to help those in need may seem distracting to others, drawing thrm away from cleaning out and looting the nearest dnageon. Your allies may feel reduced to the role of sidekicks if they must always follow your desire to aid those in need and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. This can be a knotty problem for you if you have a mission that won't wait and innocents are at risk.

Fortunately, you aren't personally obligated to right every wrong, no matter how small. That way lies madness. You don't exist in a vacuum.

Paladins don't associate on a continuing basis with evil characters. This is a point on which the DM or an NPC mentor might provide further guidance. Circumstances might force temporary cooperation, but be aware that this is an extremely risky option for you. In such cases, you have to weigh the potential gains- the success of the specific enterprise, the possibility of redeeming a fallen character, and so on, against the chance of personal corruption.

And for the DM:


Don't throw dozens of commoners in distress in front of a paladin on a mission, without being clear that the commoners are the real mission.

The code does not say paladins must be celibate, tea-drinking sticks in the mud, either. Paladins should avoid drinking too much because it impairs their ability to combat evil. Likewise, they should avoid heavy use of any substance that alters their perceptions. Moderation is the key. For instance, excessive gambling most likely leads to building a heavy debt, and agents of evil could use that debt to influence the paladin.

Cuaqchi
2010-04-28, 12:23 PM
I was going to say something about that, but I wasn't sure.

Since it came from Imperial Japan, I'm unsure whether there's any truth to that particular line. Then again, that might be my bias against brutal imperial-facist nations rising up.

Just because the messenger is flawed doesn't mean that the message lacks truth, right?

You might wish to check dates before such comments. 1882 is pre Russo-Japanese War, while England and the USA are friends.

Beowulf DW
2010-04-28, 12:59 PM
You might wish to check dates before such comments. 1882 is pre Russo-Japanese War, while England and the USA are friends.

Still doesn't change the fact that Japan later twisted the code and committed atrocities. And it doesn't change the fact that the English were a bunch of jerks to their colonies until after World War II. Now many of them are still in utter denial about it.

Still, you're right; the Japanese were pretty nice guys at the time that you mentioned.

P.S. I'd like to point out that I wasn't thinking of Great Britain and her colonies at all when I posted.

Zeta Kai
2010-04-28, 01:14 PM
Also: Some of these might be useful...

I don't see a single one of those that is remotely useful for a paladin.

Bloody funny, though.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-04-28, 06:34 PM
Defenders of the Faith had quite a lot to say on the paladin.

This was exactly the line of reasoning my paladin had when he picked his battles. While the Bard mocked him for it, it basically became good-natured teasing. In the end, my paladin regarded her as a good friend, and everyone in my group, when I had to leave the group because I was going home for the summer, said that my paladin was one of the best-played they'd ever seen.

And with a group that included a gold-digging bard and her pet unicorn suffering from PTSD, a terminally shy ranger, a conniving, money-grubbing druid, a crazy kobold-werewolf sorcerer who collected the ears of our fallen enemies, and a stupidly brave and curious halfling treehugger (homebrew class) that singlehandedly managed to cause the greatest natural disaster in millenia by causing the second Chernobyl meltdown (Our campaign world was Europe after a high-tech future was reduced to medieval level technology by a second Ice Age), that was no easy feat.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-28, 09:32 PM
"I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain." - Litany against fear, Dune

When you think about, these quotes are really only useful until the paladin reaches 3rd level.

Best quote ever.

JadedDM
2010-04-29, 01:38 AM
A knight is sworn to valor;
His heart knows only virtue;
His blade defends the helpless;
His might upholds the weak;
His word speaks only truth;
His wrath undoes the wicked

Atcote
2010-04-29, 02:17 AM
You shall be judged on how you lived, not how you died.

'Oh yes, he was a lovely chap. Liberated the city from the warlords, he did.'
'How did he die?'
'Choked to death on a child's ear.'

Chineselegolas
2010-04-29, 06:41 AM
I start reading what you are after and immediately two codes of honour jump to mind. Of which both already posted, but so excellent why not re-post them.


"Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie, cheat or steal. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil. Never back away from an enemy. Either fight or surrender. It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found."
-- The Iron Code of Druss
from Legend, by David Gemmell
My favourite code of honour for characters of noble spirit. Haven't had the right opportunity to play one in some time.

And the other from Dragonheart:

A knight is sworn to valor;
His heart knows only virtue;
His blade defends the helpless;
His might upholds the weak;
His word speaks only truth;
His wrath undoes the wicked

Kris Strife
2010-04-29, 06:41 AM
'Oh yes, he was a lovely chap. Liberated the city from the warlords, he did.'
'How did he die?'
'Choked to death on a child's ear.'

Depending on what kind of child it was, that doesn't have to be an evil thing.

Atcote
2010-04-29, 06:52 AM
Depending on what kind of child it was, that doesn't have to be an evil thing.

'A lovely little orphan child who had never done anything wrong except trust this man to cross the street into that deli that just didn't look like it from the outside.'

On the non-sarcastic topic though, it does all seem to boil down to 'Don't hurt people that don't deserve it, serve your lord/deity honestly, and give evil the stabby end if they deserve it.'

SmartAlec
2010-04-29, 06:52 AM
In terms of Paladin codes, the knight's vow from Kingdom of Heaven seemed to sum things up short and sweet:

Be without fear in the face of your enemies;
Be brave and upright, that God may love thee;
Speak the truth, always, even if it leads to your death;
Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong.

Anterean
2010-04-29, 08:30 AM
Seeing as there has been a lot of talk about fear and how paladins should never know it, here is few notions about fear and courage, that I like in particularly

Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgement that something else is more important than fear. ~Ambrose Redmoon

Courage is being afraid but going on anyhow. ~Dan Rather

Courage is doing what you're afraid to do. There can be no courage unless you're scared. ~Edward Vernon Rickenbacker

Adrayll
2010-05-18, 09:00 PM
This is actually the First Precept of the Imperial Rescript to Soldiers and Sailors (軍人勅諭, Gunjin Chokuyu?) issued by Emperor Meiji of Japan on 4 January 1882.

That makes sense, seeing as the Borderlands in the Wheel of Time are various asian analogs

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-05-18, 09:07 PM
:smallconfused: I thought this thread was dead. Has it been necro'ed?

Mystic Muse
2010-05-18, 09:08 PM
:smallconfused: I thought this thread was dead. Has it been necro'ed?

Nope. Only been about 3 weeks.

Sir_Chivalry
2010-05-18, 09:09 PM
:smallconfused: I thought this thread was dead. Has it been necro'ed?

Needs to be a month and a half without posting for it to be necromancy, and at last count it was a week four days until a month passed.