PDA

View Full Version : Do Natural weapons count as unarmed strikes?



Mystic Muse
2010-04-26, 10:54 PM
If I'm using a creature with natural attacks that aren't their fists (like Tentacles, bites or claws) do they count as unarmed strikes for the purposes of things like the Monk class or the feat superior unarmed strike? or are unarmed strikes and natural weapons different somehow? if the latter is the case can somebody tell me where there's a passage clarifying this? I've looked in the SRD and several other places but nothing seems to answer my question.

Douglas
2010-04-26, 11:02 PM
Unarmed Strike is a specific weapon. Natural Weapons is a category. Monks get a class feature that makes their Unarmed Strike count as being in the Natural Weapons category, but other than that the two have nothing to do with each other.

Mongoose87
2010-04-26, 11:02 PM
You can make an unarmed strike with any part of your body. Any part.

Douglas
2010-04-26, 11:03 PM
You can make an unarmed strike with any part of your body. Any part.
But no matter which part you pick, it's an Unarmed Strike and stats and abilities related to Slams, Claws, Bites, etc. are irrelevant.

lsfreak
2010-04-26, 11:05 PM
You can make an unarmed strike with any part of your body. Any part.

And unfortunately, of the many generally-useless immunities monks get, indecent exposure laws isn't one of them.

Pluto
2010-04-26, 11:09 PM
Monks get a class feature that makes their Unarmed Strike count as being in the Natural Weapons category And even that only counts for Natural Weapon-augmenting effects; it isn't a natural weapon for the purposes of attack routines or that sort of thing.

Mystic Muse
2010-04-26, 11:18 PM
So, If I were to say, use a Dragon Monk, it wouldn't increase his natural weapon damage 3 categories by taking a level of Monk, superior unarmed strike and improved natural weapon (unarmed strike)*?

*may not be able to use that last one.

lsfreak
2010-04-26, 11:22 PM
Nope, increases in unarmed strike damage have no effect on other natural weapons.

Mystic Muse
2010-04-26, 11:26 PM
Darn.

Any other class that would help a very young gold dragon that'll eventually be a Paladin mount? keep in mind he'll only be able to take 5 levels.

Mystic Muse
2010-04-26, 11:51 PM
Sorcerer wouldn't be a bad fit. He probably has good mental stats, and dragons can spells from the cleric list as arcane sorcerer spells (though he'd still have the pitiful 'spells known'), and he wouldn't need material components.

And if he ever gets a 6th level of sorcerer:

FAVORABLE SACRIFICE (Spell Comp pg 88)
Abjuration
Level: Cleric 3
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 hour/level
..The gems vaporize in your hand as you intone the spell. The rising vapors surround your ally, granting him the blessing of your beliefs.
..The subject receives the protection of a divine power commensurate with the value of the expended material component. Only one of the benefits described below applies per casting of this spell; they do not stack.
..By expending 250 gp, you grant the subject damage reduction 5/magic; resistance to acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic 10; and spell resistance equal to your caster level.
..By expending 1,000 gp, you grant the subject damage reduction 10/magic; resistance to acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic 15; and spell resistance equal to your caster level +5.
..By expending 10,000 gp, you grant the subject damage reduction 20/magic; resistance to acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic 20; and spell resistance equal to your caster level +10.
Material Component: Gems worth a total of 250 gp, 1,000 gp, or 10,000 gp.

unfortunately, I don't think second level spells are going to affect much at sixteenth level.

absolmorph
2010-04-27, 12:03 AM
And unfortunately, of the many generally-useless immunities monks get, indecent exposure laws isn't one of them.
Be a dwarf.
Master the art of hitting people with your beard.
????
Profit.

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-27, 06:23 AM
unfortunately, I don't think second level spells are going to affect much at sixteenth level.

Mage Armor & Shield will increase the Gold Dragon's AC by 8...

Lesser Orb of (X) is 3d8 damage at CL 5... no save, no SR.

There are a few nifty spells for Dragons in the Draconomicon...

Runestar
2010-04-27, 06:33 AM
The dragon monk would however, be able to first attack with its unarmed strikes, then follow up with all its secondary attack as secondary attacks (which pretty much requires you to blow 2 feats for improved multiattack if you want to hit consistently).

Otherwise, you may simply want to consider advancing the dragon by another age category.

Don't bother with sorc lvs. If you must, blow a feat on martial weapon prof, take 1 lv in sorc, then go abjurant champion. Try to squeeze in the 5th lv somehow, which gives you caster lv = bab, so your spells actually do something.


Mage Armor & Shield will increase the Gold Dragon's AC by 8...

Lesser Orb of (X) is 3d8 damage at CL 5... no save, no SR.

There are a few nifty spells for Dragons in the Draconomicon...

Albeit at crappy caster lv, meaning your buffs are very easy to dispel, and 3d8 won't do squat at that lv.

Optimystik
2010-04-27, 06:46 AM
unfortunately, I don't think second level spells are going to affect much at sixteenth level.

Wings of Cover says hi.

KillianHawkeye
2010-04-27, 07:05 AM
As noted in the Monster Manual, creatures with innate spellcasting abilities, such as dragons, do not require material components to cast their spells.

Too bad whoever was writing Draconomicron didn't read the Monster Manual, because it actually says the opposite of that.

nedz
2010-04-27, 07:27 AM
This feat might be of interest

Beast Strike from Dragon 355
When making an Unarmed Strike or Grapple check to deal damage, add your Claw or Slam damage.

Spells you might consider
Level 1
Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Clumsyness, Featherfall, Reduce Person(for the small creature feats perhaps), Hail of Stone(if you face a lot of mirror Image users)
Level 2
Web, See Invis, Invis, Alter Self, any of the Buffs, Extend Tenticles(+5' reach), Fuse Arms, Wings of Air, Wraithstrike

Prime32
2010-04-27, 07:31 AM
There's a racial substution level for skarnMoI monks which lets them use their arm-spines as unarmed strikes. This basically just means that their unarmed strikes do piercing damage instead of bludgeoning.


This feat might be of interest

Beast Strike from Dragon 355
When making an Unarmed Strike or Grapple check to deal damage, add your Claw or Slam damage.
See also this (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Eldritch_Claws).

Eldritch Claws
You can deliver your eldritch blast as a melee attack.
Prerequisite: Eldritch blast 2d6.
Benefit: As a free action, you can form the energy of your eldritch blast into a set of claws extending almost an entire foot from your hands. While your eldritch claws exist you may make up to two claw attacks as natural weapons. You are automatically proficient with your eldritch claws. On a successful attack with an eldritch claw, you deal your normal amount of unarmed strike damage plus your eldritch blast damage. Once you form your eldritch claws they remain until just before the beginning of your next turn. You cannot use your normal eldritch blast ability while your eldritch claws exist. A monk may not use eldritch claws as part of her flurry of blows.
Combining the two feats would result in much awesomeness.

Coplantor
2010-04-27, 07:47 AM
I ave a DM who allowed me to treat natural slam weapons as unnarmed strike for feats and stuff. Why would I make less damage with mi fists after training them to become weapons?

Mystic Muse
2010-04-27, 11:06 AM
Too bad whoever was writing Draconomicron didn't read the Monster Manual, because it actually says the opposite of that.

They also didn't read the DMG because according to that a very young gold dragon is unfit for a mount after level 11 according to that. in fact, according to the DMG, A Paladin should have a young adult gold dragon at level 16.


This feat might be of interest

Beast Strike from Dragon 355
When making an Unarmed Strike or Grapple check to deal damage, add your Claw or Slam damage.

I'll probably use this if My DM will allow it.
[QUOTE=Prime32;8384184

See also this (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Eldritch_Claws).

Combining the two feats would result in much awesomeness.[/QUOTE]

probably going to do this too.

NEO|Phyte
2010-04-27, 11:10 AM
Unarmed Strike is a specific weapon. Natural Weapons is a category. Monks get a class feature that makes their Unarmed Strike count as being in the Natural Weapons category, but other than that the two have nothing to do with each other.

You've got that the wrong way around, monks get a class feature that makes their unarmed strike count as being a MANUFACTURED weapon. At least based on the Magic Weapon/Fang spells.

You canít cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang). A monkís unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-27, 11:17 AM
You've got that the wrong way around, monks get a class feature that makes their unarmed strike count as being a MANUFACTURED weapon. At least based on the Magic Weapon/Fang spells.

Considerd a natural weapon for spells (but it is a manufactored weapon), but it isn't one. The monk ability lets them count for feats.

Rainbownaga
2010-04-27, 06:41 PM
The dragon monk would however, be able to first attack with its unarmed strikes, then follow up with all its secondary attack as secondary attacks (which pretty much requires you to blow 2 feats for improved multiattack if you want to hit consistently).
.

This. Why would you want to improve your claws and bite when you can get even more attacks? Unfortunately the penalty to flurry applies to your natural attacks as well and you have the -5/-2/-0 penalty to your natural attacks depending on how many multiattack feats, but with so many attacks you're bound to hit something even by accident.

Alternatively, if you just want to boost your natural attacks, take a few levels of lion totem barbarian: now you can use all your natural attacks in your charge, and although your natural attacks won't get better, your strength will (when raging) which amounts to the same thing.

Mystic Muse
2010-04-27, 06:57 PM
This. Why would you want to improve your claws and bite when you can get even more attacks? Unfortunately the penalty to flurry applies to your natural attacks as well and you have the -5/-2/-0 penalty to your natural attacks depending on how many multiattack feats, but with so many attacks you're bound to hit something even by accident.

Alternatively, if you just want to boost your natural attacks, take a few levels of lion totem barbarian: now you can use all your natural attacks in your charge, and although your natural attacks won't get better, your strength will (when raging) which amounts to the same thing.

1. Gold dragons are always lawful good.
2. Paladins can only have lawful good cohorts. So, no Lion totem barbarian.
3. My DM is not a big fan of charging. I had to change my character because I was using a charging build and Ikept killing things that were supposed to be a challenge in one hit. Plus, if I'd gone with my original plan I would have dealt, at a minimum, 5d8+85 damage on a charge.

Keld Denar
2010-04-27, 09:23 PM
unfortunately, I don't think second level spells are going to affect much at sixteenth level.

This couldn't be INFINITELY more wrong. There are SOOOOO many good low level spells, ones intended for gish type characters, that are absolutely amazing.

Umm.....Blood Wind SpC, allows you to make natural attacks at ranged with a 10' incriment. Its a 1ST level spell.

Um...Scintalating Scales SpC, turns your NA bonus into a deflection bonus, which means that it adds to your touch AC.

Wings of Cover, as mentioned, gives you COMPLETE COVER to any one attack as an immediate action.

Lets not forget Bladeweave. With your dragon's stats, the DC would be decent even from a 2nd level slot. Chance to stun when you hit with a melee attack, swift action cast.

There are a few others. Look up any guide to gishes, and you'll probably find a couple more. Anything that isn't CL or generally not save dependant.

Mystic Muse
2010-04-27, 09:44 PM
Umm.....Blood Wind SpC, allows you to make natural attacks at ranged with a 10' incriment. Its a 1ST level spell.
Yeah, I guess you're right about this one.



Um...Scintalating Scales SpC, turns your NA bonus into a deflection bonus, which means that it adds to your touch AC.
I'll check this one out.



Wings of Cover, as mentioned, gives you COMPLETE COVER to any one attack as an immediate action.
this is pretty good.

Lets not forget Bladeweave. With your dragon's stats, the DC would be decent even from a 2nd level slot. Chance to stun when you hit with a melee attack, swift action cast.
Won't most enemies be either immune to Daze or that level or be able to save against it? or is it not a save based spell?

Starbuck_II
2010-04-27, 09:47 PM
Won't most enemies be either immune to Daze or that level or be able to save against it? or is it not a save based spell?

Nothing is innately is immune to daze. No, not even that one.

Daze is super stun (while it has weaker penalty, it is impossible to be immune/okay there is one Paladin spell that grants immunity). However, most delivering abilities of daze are mind affecting.

Bladeweave is not mindaffecting, but it is will save.

Mystic Muse
2010-04-27, 09:51 PM
My bad. I was thinking of stun (which seems to be one of Many Criticisms of Monks)

Guess I'll go with Sorcerer then and boost my Dragon's Charisma as much as I reasonably can.

Keld Denar
2010-04-27, 09:57 PM
Even if the foe has a decent chance to save, its a swift action spell, so it doesn't hurt your action economy that bad.

Its a pretty decent gig.