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Prodan
2010-04-28, 11:48 PM
Is it me, or do the monk weapons designed for disarming (sai, nunchaku) have penalties to disarming that either cancel out or outweigh the bonuses they provide?

Is there something I'm not getting?

Escheton
2010-04-28, 11:51 PM
the flavor man, the flavor

yeah, you are better off with a twohander, a reach twohander at that.
though, it's prolly just to make a flurry of disarms viable...

Pluto
2010-04-28, 11:51 PM
Welcome to the Monk.

Mystic Muse
2010-04-28, 11:52 PM
Is it me, or do the monk weapons designed for disarming (sai, nunchaku) have penalties to disarming that either cancel out or outweigh the bonuses they provide?

Is there something I'm not getting?

This is one of those thing WOTC probably missed. Yes, their penalties outweigh their bonus. You can probably convince your DM to rule against that however. Unless they follow RAW to the letter and Monks aren't proficient with their fists either.

sonofzeal
2010-04-28, 11:53 PM
Only monk weapons worth using - Quarterstaff (twohanded), Sling, and the Scorpion Kama from MIC. If you can get the Scorpion Kama enchant generalized to a Quarterstaff, that's even better.

holywhippet
2010-04-29, 12:06 AM
Really the bonuses are only an issue if you are trying to disarm a heavy weapon from an opponent rather than a light weapon. The sai is better at disarming than other light weapons without the same bonus for example, it just isn't as good as something like a spiked chain.

ForzaFiori
2010-04-29, 12:10 AM
Those penalties really shouldn't be there. I took a martial art that used the sai, and They're pretty much made for disarming. One of their main uses was actually to disarm samurai, so it should be like that in the game imho. (IE, the sai should have a good enough bonus that you can disarm two handed weapons with it). The numchacku are also VERY good at disarming staff weapons, since you wrap it around part of the staff and then yank. (well, its a little more complicated than that, but that's how you do it in a nutshell.)

Gerrtt
2010-04-29, 12:26 AM
I ran the numbers on it once and don't know where they are right now, but I found once that it's very easy for a level 6 commoner with the right feats (namely combat expertise and improved disarm) to be better at disarming than a level 6 monk that chooses improved disarm as their level 6 bonus feat. All they have to do is use a long spear.

Assuming 14 strength:

Monk: +4 bab, +2 Str, +4 disarm bonus (sai), -4 disarm bonus (small weapon) = +6 total.

Commoner: +3 BaB, +2 Str, +4 disarm bonus (two-handed weapon) = +9

+3 to your check isn't like vastly superior or anything, but it's decent. Poor, poor monk. Much better off trying to disarm with a quarterstaff, in which case they beat the commoner by 1.

But the commoner with the long spear, he's got reach advantage.

Escheton
2010-04-29, 12:58 AM
yeah, but the monk can try twice

still better off stunning (drops weapon when stunned I think)

or just grappling so they can't use their weapons

Eldariel
2010-04-29, 01:11 AM
yeah, but the monk can try twice

At penalties to both checks though, so while the whole is a bit better, it's still not trivially better.

Gerrtt
2010-04-29, 12:38 PM
yeah, but the monk can try twice

still better off stunning (drops weapon when stunned I think)

or just grappling so they can't use their weapons

True, if the monk Flurries then they get two disarm attempts at +5 instead of one at +6. But they still have to do it at close range, which means they have to spend two turns to be able to do it, one to reach the enemy in question and another to full attack/flurry.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-29, 12:57 PM
I simply play a Ninja/Monk, so I can use Scorpion Kusari-Gama

Sir Giacomo
2010-04-29, 01:28 PM
I ran the numbers on it once and don't know where they are right now, but I found once that it's very easy for a level 6 commoner with the right feats (namely combat expertise and improved disarm) to be better at disarming than a level 6 monk that chooses improved disarm as their level 6 bonus feat. All they have to do is use a long spear.

Assuming 14 strength:

Monk: +4 bab, +2 Str, +4 disarm bonus (sai), -4 disarm bonus (small weapon) = +6 total.

Commoner: +3 BaB, +2 Str, +4 disarm bonus (two-handed weapon) = +9

+3 to your check isn't like vastly superior or anything, but it's decent. Poor, poor monk. Much better off trying to disarm with a quarterstaff, in which case they beat the commoner by 1.

But the commoner with the long spear, he's got reach advantage.

You forgot the bonus for the improved disarm feat for the monk. So sai monk beats commoner, as well as, in fact, a fighter who does not have the improved disarm feat and still wishes to use a shield at that level.:smallwink:

- Giacomo

Doug Lampert
2010-04-29, 01:39 PM
Welcome to the Monk.

+1.

It's like the way monk's have lots of movement, and their significant combat power is only usable on a full attack.

JaronK
2010-04-29, 02:31 PM
Easiest solution: take 5 levels of Shou Disciple. It grants full BAB, progresses unarmed damage and flurry, and lets you flurry with any martial weapon. In other words, it gives everything you want (boosts your AC too). Now bust out with a nice two hander and go to town.

...though I have to wonder why you want to bother disarming stuff.

JaronK

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-29, 02:58 PM
You forgot the bonus for the improved disarm feat for the monk. So sai monk beats commoner, as well as, in fact, a fighter who does not have the improved disarm feat and still wishes to use a shield at that level.:smallwink:

- Giacomo

Actually, if you reread the post, you'll see that he stated that the commoner in question does have improved disarm.

However, I would say that the sai should count as a two-handed weapon when you wield one in each hand, so as a pair they would be better at disarming than just wielding one, as designed.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-29, 03:01 PM
You forgot the bonus for the improved disarm feat for the monk. So sai monk beats commoner, as well as, in fact, a fighter who does not have the improved disarm feat and still wishes to use a shield at that level.:smallwink:

- Giacomo

Um, okay add Improved Disarm:
Monk: +4 bab, +2 Str, +4 disarm bonus (sai), +4 I.Disarm -4 disarm bonus (small weapon) = +10 total.

Commoner: +3 BaB, +2 Str, +4 disarm bonus (two-handed weapon) = +9

You barely win versus a commoner. Still pretty sad.

Reynard
2010-04-29, 03:01 PM
Jaronk, which book is Shou Disciple in?

Optimystik
2010-04-29, 04:08 PM
Shou Disciple is in Unapproachable East.

You can also take Monk of the Enabled Hand (Dragon Compendium); your hand is treated as a Large weapon for disarming. You also get a free attack of opportunity against your attacker whenever you are attacked, which you can turn into a Disarm attempt.

Both MotEH and Shou Disciple are 5 levels long - if you take them both, you're able to do the following:

1) Get attacked
2) Retaliate with an immediate AoO Disarm
3) Steal their weapon
4) Full attack with it on your turn

nedz
2010-04-29, 07:19 PM
Take one level of a class which allows you to use of Martial Weapons, Aristocrat say, and then you can use a Ranseur. Pick up Weapon Focus(Ranseur) for Pole Fighting and you can flurry-disarme with reach.

Monk6 Aristocrat 1: +4 bab, +2 Str, +2 disarm bonus (Ranseur), +4 Imp Disarm, +4 disarm bonus (two-handed weapon) = +16

Aristocrat 7: +5 BaB, +2 Str, +2 disarm bonus (Ranseur), +4 disarm bonus (two-handed weapon) = +13

And you get to flurry

So Multiclassing Monk with Aristocrat is a CO build :biggrin:

Mind you the Aristocrat could take Combat Expertise for Imp Disarm also for +17

Prodan
2010-04-29, 07:20 PM
Fascinating.

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-30, 08:43 AM
Uh, how about Monk 6/Fighter 1?

BAB +5, Weapon Focus +1, +4 two handed bonus, +2 disarm bonus, +4 improved disarm +2 STR, for +18.

nedz
2010-04-30, 08:50 AM
Uh, how about Monk 6/Fighter 1?

BAB +5, Weapon Focus +1, +4 two handed bonus, +2 disarm bonus, +4 improved disarm +2 STR, for +18.

Well obviously Fighter is better than Aristocrat :smallsmile:

Why do you get Weapon Focus though ?

Thalnawr
2010-04-30, 09:23 AM
Well obviously Fighter is better than Aristocrat :smallsmile:

Why do you get Weapon Focus though ?
To qualify for Pole-Fighting, and the ability to flurry with the polearm you're focused in.

Person_Man
2010-04-30, 10:28 AM
Flind Bars: Monster Manual III: One handed exotic weapon (that you can obviously use two handed if you want for the bonus to Disarm). +2 to Disarm, and when you threaten a crit (19-20 or 17-20 with any Keen/Impact effect) you get a free Disarm attempt before you roll to confirm the crit. Ask your DM to make an exception to allow them to be a special Monk weapon - they are nunchucks after all.

Note that you can switch between using a weapon one handed to two handed or vice verses between attacks as a free action, so you can Flurry one handed (a requirement), and then when you get the free Disarm check switch using the weapon two handed. This is specifically covered in the FAQ - it also allows you to switch from a two handed reach weapon to spiked gauntlets or armor spikes between attacks, or from using a weapon to casting a spell with a somatic component.

The best way for a Monk to Disarm though is to use Stunning Fist. Spending an attack action to do it is superfluous.

nedz
2010-04-30, 11:20 AM
To qualify for Pole-Fighting, and the ability to flurry with the polearm you're focused in.

Yes - but why do this give you +1 Disarm ?

NEO|Phyte
2010-04-30, 11:23 AM
Yes - but why do this give you +1 Disarm ?

Because it's opposed attack rolls.

nedz
2010-04-30, 12:56 PM
Because it's opposed attack rolls.

I guess its down to interpretation, because thats not how I read it.

NEO|Phyte
2010-04-30, 01:09 PM
I guess its down to interpretation, because thats not how I read it.

Uh...

Step 2

Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a disarm attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. (An unarmed strike is considered a light weapon, so you always take a penalty when trying to disarm an opponent by using an unarmed strike.) If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category. If the targeted item isnít a melee weapon, the defender takes a -4 penalty on the roll.
Seems fairly clear to me.

Gerrtt
2010-04-30, 09:12 PM
You forgot the bonus for the improved disarm feat for the monk. So sai monk beats commoner, as well as, in fact, a fighter who does not have the improved disarm feat and still wishes to use a shield at that level.:smallwink:

- Giacomo

Actually, I forgot the improved disarm bonus on both accounts, the +4 on the commoner side comes from the fact that it's a two handed weapon the commoner is using, so it instead looks like (unless the two handed bonus doesn't stack with the improved disarm bonus), for the opposed checks:


Assuming 14 strength:

Monk: +4 bab, +2 Str, +4 disarm bonus (sai), -4 disarm bonus (small weapon), +4 improved disarm = +10 total.

Commoner: +3 BaB, +2 Str, +4 disarm bonus (two-handed weapon), +4 improved disarm = +13

The only ways the sai monk come out on top is if the target doesn't have imp. disarm, is also using a light weapon that doesn't get a disarm bonus, or if the monk has significantly better stats and/or base attack bonus than the target.

{edit}

Not to mention that it gets worse if our commoner is a human (getting their disarm feats at level 1) and takes for his level 3 feat Martial Weapon Proficiency: Ranseur and for Level 6 Weapon Focus: Ranseur...the bonus to their disarm opposed roll becomes +16 vs. the monks +10. A silly use of feats and actions I suppose, but our super commoner will be able to keep invading evil monks from holding onto their sai.

Even with weapon focus Sai the monk only comes up to +11.