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Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 09:04 PM
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af197/Doc__Roc/MIRV_cut-away.png
This, but Spells.


Sorcerer, Simplified (https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfMjYzZ2diNnNxaGQ&hl=en)


Opinions are welcome and needed. As a warning, this take is quite different, but I have talked it over with Fax quite a bit. Be as that may, it's slick, it's fast, and requires little GM adjudication. However, it's not finished. I was hoping to open up the forum to some community input, as I've had an almost three month long block regarding some of the listed-but-uncrunched abilities.

Fax Celestis
2010-04-29, 09:19 PM
*watches patiently*

Glimbur
2010-04-29, 09:27 PM
Manifestor or Manifester?

Scholar Savant trapping seems, at a glance, really good because more secrets -> more options.

Do we want to include a way to restore more than one point a turn? Otherwise high level combats will be a very careful balancing act between being effective and having endurance. On the other hand, points only matter for Secrets and it's viable to cast without Secrets.

I like the extreme modularity.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-04-29, 09:29 PM
Relatively Minor and Petty Nitpick: Manifester is spelled "Manifestor" throughout the page. In the SRD it's spelled "Manifester". It's relatively minor, but sticks out at me all the same.

More to come once I finish reading the thing. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Apparently I'm not the only one who noticed :smalltongue:

Krazddndfreek
2010-04-29, 09:48 PM
What's this ↻ mean?

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 10:11 PM
Generally, it's how I flag things that are unfinished or in progress. It's more a personal shorthand normally, but I guess you're peeking into my studio now, so maybe I should have explained it? :)

Fixing ML issue.
edit: Fixed. is now Manifester.

Siosilvar
2010-04-29, 10:23 PM
Force and Elemental both seem stronger than Sonic...

Force because (I assume) it transdimensions, and Elemental gives you +50% damage when it can... Sonic, though, is just plain damage with no chance for extra and it's resisted occasionally.

Some small damage bonus vs. objects or crystals, maybe?

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 10:38 PM
It only transdimensions if Fax is using that rule, which I'm unsure about.

Siosilvar
2010-04-29, 10:49 PM
Even if it doesn't go through dimensions, it's still a little bit better than sonic because things immune to it come up more often than... uh, yeah. I can't think of anything that resists Force damage aside from a Force Dragon or things with SR, which would affect all of these equally.

EDIT: Ignoring hardness with Sonic damage would probably be enough.

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 10:53 PM
Force does have only one secret, and a somewhat weaker one at that. I'm a little more concerned about some of the other Mechanics, particularly since I just fleshed out the other secret for sonic. A lot of this is going to need to be triple checked. Later in the summer I'll build out a couple of test scripts in python for producing some basic metrics.

Milskidasith
2010-04-29, 10:53 PM
This seems very good.

Problems I see so far:

Launching an attack ignoring Line of Effect is incredibly good. Luckily, you don't really have too many save or Xs, but you can still blast incredibly well while being totally protected by your tinfoil hat twice per encounter, which is a game winner (and, ignoring LoE, you don't really *need* the move action anyway).

Basically, doing something like really shouldn't exist in a "no cheese" setting:

Milski's Love's Pain Part Trial Part 2: Now with higher damage and less reliance on Mindrape.

I'm a whirlwind of love, and love hurts!

ML: 20
Seeds used: Force (Great), Acid (Minor), Sonic (Major), Thrash (minor)
Trappings used: Wild Mage (Great), Scholar-Savant
Secrets used: Showboat
Action needed: Full Round
Target: One creature in 100+10/ML ft. I do not need line of effect or sight, and cover is ignored.
Point cost: 28
Effect: Target creature must make a fortitude save or take 11d6 acid damage, and 11d6 sonic damage. Additionally, targets within 20 feet of the original target (including the original target) take 14d8 force damage, no save. The tornado may then be controlled per the Thrash rules. Any creature affected by the thrash tornado does not get a save.

That shouldn't really happen, even at the two/encounter limit, because, while the damage isn't amazing, it's still damage you can deal without even being in danger, or indeed, even being within a few rounds of being in danger; with a scrying spell or just basic maps, you can launch the tornado throughout the dungeon, rest for a few minutes, and launch it again without even leaving the original room! In any building short of a skyscraper, the Big Bad can constantly plague you with this spell while you attempt to progress, or you can, combined with explosive spell (with a slight spell variation) blast him out the window before he even knows you are there, and neither of those are very fun.

The other problem stems from the fact it's not finished, but there really aren't any status dealing effects, even relatively minor ones. There's silence, and minor knockback, but that's about it.

Thrash is also quite possibly too good, not for it's ability to grant a better, more controllable AoE than the actual "burst" seed (well, that's part of it) but also because it can, as I demonstrate with my spell, unlink a no save effect from the rest of the spell; in this case, I use it so my high force damage isn't affected by the save that plagues the (relatively minor) elemental blasting attached.

Also, the first two secrets you would learn would always be the ones that double and triple your secrets known. You might as well just say that, so low level sorcerers in long term campaigns don't get either gimped early, or gimped late, when they either have half the relevant seeds (early) or less secrets (late).

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 10:57 PM
Re: Arcane Scholar

That is actually intentional, and needs to be mentioned, highlighted, and explained somewhere. It's part of some stupid mathematical wiggling I had to do to get Sorcerer to work.

Re: Thrash

That's an important thing to have, in my mind, actually. Thrash is hard to set up early, but offers you a means of scaling your utility and increasing your variety later in life. It's too important to kill, though I might consider reducing the size of its template.

Re: Showboat.

Oops.
Got nothing else to say there. Any thoughts on fixing it without killing it entirely? Maybe a shorter range-linked bound?


Very good from you is darn high praise. I'll take.

Lappy9000
2010-04-29, 11:01 PM
I-it's psionic :smallconfused: That really is different. Psionics are awesome, but I'm assuming they're not using Spell Weaving anymore?

I know this is all in the working stage, but I can't make heads or tails of this. I'magonna wait until things are a bit more complete to give a more advanced looking at. From what I can tell so far, giving all sorcerers automatic Dispels and Contingencies is an excellent idea, and it looks like you're doing a good job of folding multiple effects into single seeds to make things more useful (Invisibility into Force? Nice!).

I've got a good feeling about this :smallcool:

Temotei
2010-04-29, 11:02 PM
This seems very good.

Whoa. :smallamused: Feel proud that you got that from Milski--especially right away.

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 11:03 PM
It's not actually psionic, it just sort of tastes that way faintly, so until I know what kind of boosts to Spell Weaver level would exist, I'm calling it ML. Basically, it was a best-existing-fit thing.

Lappy9000
2010-04-29, 11:04 PM
It's not actually psionic, it just sort of tastes that way faintly, so until I know what kind of boosts to Spell Weaver level would exist, I'm calling it ML. Basically, it was a best-existing-fit thing.Ah, fair enough. Psionics makes a great fallback :smallbiggrin:

Milskidasith
2010-04-29, 11:12 PM
Re: Arcane Scholar

That is actually intentional, and needs to be mentioned, highlighted, and explained somewhere. It's part of some stupid mathematical wiggling I had to do to get Sorcerer to work.

I'd still just make it double/triple rather than extra after you acquire it, so, though it gives you a massive variety dump, it still offers the flexibility of what to take early game.


Re: Thrash

That's an important thing to have, in my mind, actually. Thrash is hard to set up early, but offers you a means of scaling your utility and increasing your variety later in life. It's too important to kill, though I might consider reducing the size of its template.

I'd suggest making Thrash a low cost secret for the burst seed (it's not *that* great, it just lets you hit a wider area), BUT making the de-linking either a secret of either specific seeds (Force, for instance, could have it as its second secret) or a secret of one of the trappings. I'd say it could be something like this:

Schizo Caster

Trapping Disadvantage: Your mind is a jumbled mess, making it harder to focus on the spell. The DC of any spell affected by this trapping is decreased by 2. If this is used in the great seed, the DC of the trapping is instead decreased by 5.

Secrets:

De-Link:
Limits: Spell must have a saving through used by at least one seed.
Cost: Whatever the math says it should be, you've number crunched this, Doc.
Whenever you cast a spell affected by this secret, you may "pick and choose" saves for the seeds, although the spell is not affected in any other way. If a seed originally offered no save, the portion of the spell that seed affects (needs better wording) offers no save. Otherwise, you may combine the saves in any way you want, as long as the save is of a type used by the original spell.

EX: Bob casts Blast, a spell that uses a seed that offers a will save, no save, and a reflex save. Normally, the spell would either use a will or a reflex save. Instead, the effects of the seed using no save offer no save, and he may have the spell offer a singular will save, a singular reflex save, or a will and reflex save (it is possible you could put the will save effect on the seed originally governed by a reflex save, if you so desired.)

Split:
Limits: Must be an AoE spell
Cost: Your choice again
You create two castings of the same spell, each half the size as normal. You cannot affect a target more than once with this.
Special: If this is in the greater lock, you may instead choose any number of individual targets to be affected, provided the space they take up does not exceed the area of the original spell (I.E. if you cast a burst that affected a total of 25 squares, you could hit up to 25 medium targets within range. At -5 DC)

Irresistable:
Limits: No SoD, SoLs, or basically anything greater than "Save or take damage/suffer a minor status effect. *Maybe* allow with explosive just so people can really do the whole "blow off a cliff" thing.
Cost: Way the hell up there.
Limits: Re-iterating: NO SAVE OR DIES.
The spell automatically affects the target, without a save.

(Yes, this is broken. But as long as it only works with damage, no save damage isn't huge, and neither is no save silence, or fear effects short of terrified, or such things.)


Re: Showboat.

Oops.
Got nothing else to say there. Any thoughts on fixing it without killing it entirely? Maybe a shorter range-linked bound?

It needs a significant backlash to prevent abuse, and quite possibly needs removal. Significantly reducing the range on the spell would prevent skyscraper crawl blasting, though; if it were 10 feet +5/2 sorc levels, it would only be 70 feet at level 20, which, while significant, isn't huge... provided there aren't walls anywhere between you and your enemy. It's an awesome ability, but broken... maybe daily instead of per encounter? That would at least solve the "blast away from a safe room" problem.

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 11:12 PM
Basically, I knew that ML boosting would remain fairly limited, where CL boosting is..... of unreliable quality and quantity.


Showboat:
Daily would be okay, but I think Fax wants no daily-level stuff.
How about a hard cap of 50 feet?



re: Schizocast

I think that this actually differs from thrash enough that it might merit its inclusion regardless of the fate of Thrash.
I'm not entirely satisfied with making Thrash a secret for burst, because that makes burst extraordinarily desirable as a seed.


Split would need... a lot of rewriting.

As for Irresistable, I can lock it to affecting specific seeds, since we have that rules tech already in place. It's a solid ability, but I am a little nervous about it. I'll think on it!

Darkkwalker
2010-04-29, 11:19 PM
How do the locks work??? That was really unclear.

Milskidasith
2010-04-29, 11:21 PM
Showboat:
Daily would be okay, but I think Fax wants no daily-level stuff.
How about a hard cap of 50 feet?

Hard cap of 50 feet helps. No daily is really a strict limitation for that; there has to be some kind of "non daily" way to keep it from casting through walls indefinitely. Maybe "You can only recover the points expended by this spell if you have line of effect to the location you cast it on?" You can blast through walls a few times, but then you have to actually head over there to recover, although that still allows the aforementioned "slowly blow through rooms" scenario. I dunno, LoE is a really, really important thing for a reason.




re: Schizocast

I think that this actually differs from thrash enough that it might merit its inclusion regardless of the fate of Thrash.
I'm not entirely satisfied with making Thrash a secret for burst, because that makes burst extraordinarily desirable as a seed.

Burst is entirely undesirable right now unless you want save causing pushing, because thrash has all the fun of burst, except with a much greater range and the ability to hit enemies surrounding your allies without missing/hitting the allies, plus the aforementioned delinking aspect.

EDIT: Yeah, split needs to be rewritten, it wasn't very clear and it was fairly stream of conscious. Irresistable is just a fun little effect for blasters, though ignoring immunity/DR would be another way to help them out, though I think I recall Fax saying immunity would be limited in d20r.

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 11:22 PM
How do the locks work??? That was really unclear.

Trapping goes in them.
Slots associated with them can then hold mechanics.

For a more visual approach:
Trace your finger outward along the diagram, starting at the circular minor slot. If you'd need to cross an empty lock to get to a slot, then you can't use that slot until you fill the empty lock with a trapping.


Hard cap of 50 feet helps. No daily is really a strict limitation for that; there has to be some kind of "non daily" way to keep it from casting through walls indefinitely. Maybe "You can only recover the points expended by this spell if you have line of effect to the location you cast it on?" You can blast through walls a few times, but then you have to actually head over there to recover, although that still allows the aforementioned "slowly blow through rooms" scenario. I dunno, LoE is a really, really important thing for a reason.


I like this, but it needs a timer, as well. Showboat is a fascinating ability, so I'm okay with it having some bizarre restrictions. This also creates situations where you end up staring at your dead enemy to regain your mojo, which I think is completely hilarious.


I'd rather improve burst than condense thrash, I think. Talk to me about that avenue?
Thrash will also be getting no secrets.

Milskidasith
2010-04-29, 11:29 PM
I like this, but it needs a timer, as well. Showboat is a fascinating ability, so I'm okay with it having some bizarre restrictions. This also creates situations where you end up staring at your dead enemy to regain your mojo, which I think is completely hilarious.

I was thinking more along the lines of "You have to see it at least once before you start to recover" rather than "You sit around for close to three minutes because you have to grab your magic back" but the hilarity factor of the first one is pretty neat.


I'd rather improve burst than condense thrash, I think. Talk to me about that avenue?

Make burst kick serious ass with synergistic secrets, ways to avoid hitting allies, etc. Without nerfing Thrash (which could happen; a smaller movement range, or a movement range dependant on ML; the radius is essentially irrelevant with 50' move), you'd have to buff up burst. Stuff like "Only hits enemies," "constantly repeats" (which I just figured you could do with trail; it's kind of hilarious to cast that on somebody with burst affecting it, because you essentially get sonic force acid clouds following somebody around throughout the round which then sit there for two more rounds), "explosive spell" (which you have), and other ways of affecting bursts/cones without affecting Thrash tornadoes, and you've got a solid seed.

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 11:31 PM
I just pushed the AoE on thrash down to 10 and 20 respectively. I think that'll help a lot. I also improved the AoE on burst.

Milskidasith
2010-04-29, 11:34 PM
I just pushed the AoE on thrash down to 10 and 20 respectively. I think that'll help a lot. I also improved the AoE on burst.

It's less the AoE than the movement speed; with 50 foot movement speed, you can hit all the targets in a fairly significant area with pinpoint, ally avoiding accuracy, to the point where, for anything but large numbers of targets spread out over the area of a burst with no allies there, the 50' movement makes thrash always a better AoE.

EDIT: And I've been overlooking that Thrash doesn't get all seeds guaranteed, which has problems with reducing the damage, so it's probably good as is. Granted, getting two of three damage dealing seeds is still decent AoE blasting, but losing out on damage gives Burst the edge it needs.

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 11:36 PM
Gave Oddly Selective to burst, which should also help. Couldn't figure out a good cost for it, so we're punting at 16 currently. I'll flag that as a unprovable cost.

Man, there are a lot of things here with no meat on their bones. God in heaven, this is a big project. I remember why I got overwhelmed.

Milskidasith
2010-04-29, 11:40 PM
Gave Oddly Selective to burst, which should also help. Couldn't figure out a good cost for it, so we're punting at 16 currently. I'll flag that as a unprovable cost.

Seems a reasonable cost, especially if you're doing things such as AoE buffing which provide huge swings in power.

I'm just now realizing you can do AoE buffs and possibly even immediate action AoE wings of cover (if that is added in), which is... intense. Completely ignoring AoE spells (with your own AoE spell immediate action) is pretty nutty, and I take back all the criticism I had for burst.

I need to think more before reviewing sometimes; I totally overlooked the buffs because they were entirely unfinished.

EDIT: Also, more skill points. 4+int mod. Just because skills are always useful, an it's going to be maxing psicraft (weavecraft?) and concentration anyway.

EDIT X2: I just realized I apologized about misreviewing features of the class that interact with currently unfinished features. It's perfectly reasonable for me, but out of context, it sounds quite insane. Then again, I probably am crazy.

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 11:42 PM
It's hard to pay a ton of attention to unallocated phase space. Ideas there are just as slippery as sand.

Oh, and Mik, you should take a look at the new Challenges section in the ToS.

Related note:
Trailing + Buff = hilarious.

It is possible, though cripplingly difficult, to use thrash to affect Shield to affect other seeds and produce raw insanity. It's fine though, it needs to be that way. Because that way is fun.

Milskidasith
2010-04-29, 11:49 PM
It's hard to pay a ton of attention to unallocated phase space. Ideas there are just as slippery as sand.

Oh, and Mik, you should take a look at the new Challenges section in the ToS.

Related note:
Trailing + Buff = hilarious.

It is possible, though cripplingly difficult, to use thrash to affect Shield to affect other seeds and produce raw insanity. It's fine though, it needs to be that way. Because that way is fun.

A tornado of buffs that cast offensive spells in retaliation?

I don't even know how to judge that. If you pressed me, I'd probably say it's about 79. On what scale, I don't know.

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 11:52 PM
I was listening to something appropriate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Riw7j9b8fM8&feature=PlayList&p=101AB0B25597EC9A&playnext_from=PL&index=4&playnext=19) while we discussed this. Cause there's something in the air tonight.
HAHAHAHAAHA
AHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Milskidasith
2010-04-29, 11:54 PM
I was listening to something appropriate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Riw7j9b8fM8&feature=PlayList&p=101AB0B25597EC9A&playnext_from=PL&index=4&playnext=19) while we discussed this. Cause there's something in the air tonight. HAHAHAHAAHA
AHAHAHAHAHAHAH

On an unrelated note...

You're giving beta access to Achron away for a ToS fighter contest?

I don't know if I could even make a full fighter 20, but dammit, I want access to Achron. Time travelling RTS action, hell yeah. I actually knew about it before your reward, but I had stopped following it, assuming it would either get brought up again (as it has) or become vaporware due to funding problems.

Doc Roc
2010-04-30, 12:03 AM
I am deeply optimistic that someone will offer up some meat to layer onto them aching exposed bones in the buff section. Shield will get a write-up ~May 15.

Gralamin
2010-04-30, 12:19 AM
Good to see this finally getting a thread. I hope this goes places, after all the trouble of getting it going.

For those not in the know, I helped Doc Roc get this going, as I apparently had the most d20r experience out of the available pool at the time. It was quite an... interesting experience.

Doc Roc
2010-04-30, 12:20 AM
Good to see this finally getting a thread. I hope this goes places, after all the trouble of getting it going.

For those not in the know, I helped Doc Roc get this going, as I apparently had the most d20r experience out of the available pool at the time. It was quite an... interesting experience.

By interesting, you mean really painful. I'm fully aware that I can be rough to work with, for which I really apologize.

Gralamin
2010-04-30, 12:22 AM
By interesting, you mean really painful. I'm fully aware that I can be rough to work with, for which I really apologize.

Haha, not in so many words. But no, it was still fun, interesting, and overall pretty cool. So no need to apologize.

Fax Celestis
2010-04-30, 10:03 AM
Man, there are a lot of things here with no meat on their bones. God in heaven, this is a big project. I remember why I got overwhelmed.

-_- Welcome to my world.

Doc Roc
2010-04-30, 11:10 AM
-_- Welcome to my world.

It is important to remember that these are all projects we chose to undertake, and that we choose to finish. When they are no longer fun, we should consider walking away. If we cannot walk away, then it's time to find a way to get paid, because they've become work.

ErrantX
2010-04-30, 12:10 PM
It is important to remember that these are all projects we chose to undertake, and that we choose to finish. When they are no longer fun, we should consider walking away. If we cannot walk away, then it's time to find a way to get paid, because they've become work.

Seconded. I feel that way pretty regularly with my Libram of Battle project. Still working on it though!

-X

Lappy9000
2010-04-30, 02:10 PM
It is important to remember that these are all projects we chose to undertake, and that we choose to finish. When they are no longer fun, we should consider walking away. If we cannot walk away, then it's time to find a way to get paid, because they've become work.Oh, but Fax plans to get paid :smallamused:

That's why he's a genius.

Doc Roc
2010-04-30, 03:46 PM
Oh, but Fax plans to get paid :smallamused:

That's why he's a genius.

The RPG market is... not large. Monetizing projects like these is extraordinarily difficult.
His best bet, honestly, would be to publish d20r, and then use it to try and get a job designing games somewhere for a salary.

Lappy9000
2010-04-30, 10:10 PM
The RPG market is... not large. Monetizing projects like these is extraordinarily difficult.
His best bet, honestly, would be to publish d20r, and then use it to try and get a job designing games somewhere for a salary.I...hadn't quite intended (or presumed) this taken in full seriousness, but hey, whatever.

Back on track, I'll be sure to keep up with this topic and contribute where I can.

Doc Roc
2010-04-30, 11:15 PM
Additional delectable meat has appeared, in the form of a working Barrier and working Shield.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-01, 01:06 AM
Weighing in:

As is, many trappings affect the caster, not the spell.

Idea for trappings:

"you may not use any secrets from seeds attached to this lock."

"seeds attached to this lock suffer a -4 penalty to manifester level."

"Any seed or secret used in this spell gains a 1 round cooldown. During this time, you may not use any of these seeds or secrets. Trappings are unaffected by this, but secrets that such trappings have are affected."

--- Possible secret: "Extend the cooldown to equal the duration of the power + 1 minute. Variable, numeric effects of seeds attached to this lock are maximized."

"The caster is automatically stunned for 1 round following the casting of this spell. This effect may not be negated in any way."

Doc Roc
2010-05-01, 01:46 AM
Tucked in an example feat, tweaked some numbers here and there.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-01, 01:58 AM
RE: Barrier:

I'm concerned that Barrier isn't actually a Barrier, barring a specific seed combination. It's a static lingering AoE damage effect. The class has little to no ability to actually hinder opponents.

IMO, the class needs either an ability to create an actual barrier to opponents, or and ability to summon (similar to astral construct). As is, the class has nothing to hinder creatures with sharp pointy teeth from moving on over and inserting them in the sorceror.

Doc Roc
2010-05-01, 03:29 AM
I'll be adding a positive interaction with the Barrier (Now named cloud) seed in the Temporal, Offensive. This should, between it and stone-birth creating actual walls with Cloud, provide some suitably meaty BC options. I'll try to work a little more in here and there, but BC is extra-dangerous in a seed casting situation.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-01, 04:01 AM
I'll be adding a positive interaction with the Barrier (Now named cloud) seed in the Temporal, Offensive. This should, between it and stone-birth creating actual walls with Cloud, provide some suitably meaty BC options. I'll try to work a little more in here and there, but BC is extra-dangerous in a seed casting situation.

It doesn't necessarily need to be honest to goodness BC. Barrier could be limited to single target protection. For example:

Barrier (Protect)
Shape: Target
Save: None or Reflex
Duration: 1 Round

Minor: Target Gains DR(equal to ML)/magic.
Major: Target is shielded in a special bubble of force. This effect functions in all ways as the Resilient Sphere (spell) (Save Negates), except for duration.
Great Seed: As Major, and when the effect ends, the encased target gains DR(equal to ML)/- for 1 round.

It provides the ability to provide limited protection to characters, without creating long term hampering effects. You can, at higher levels, grant a significant amount of DR, at the cost of hampering an ally's actions for a round.

Doc Roc
2010-05-01, 04:52 AM
Would three soft bc effects be enough?

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-01, 04:59 AM
I think the key is limiting the scope. As long as they can't affect more than 1 target, and it allows a save, it should be ok.

It was designed to be able to provide a protection to someone, or a temporary delay tactic for mitigating one foe, with a focus on the protection. It's also designed to work very well as a "team player" seed. For example: Throw it on a caster, and they get a buff round, or a teleport spell under total cover, or somesuch. Ready an action to Throw it on a fighter, and they get a healthy DR when the effect ends, and protection from an attack.

Pop it on yourself, and you can, in theory follow up with a teleport, if you can get it in a high enough slot.

And then there's popping it on an enemy (that's small enough to be affected by a Resilient Sphere), and using the Protection from AoO's to get into position.

Good versatility, but a singular effect.

Doc Roc
2010-05-01, 05:43 PM
I'll see what I can do later in the coming week.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-01, 06:13 PM
Burst-Buffing may still be an issue, although not nearly as broken an issue as the previous incarnation was, due to a lack of viable buffs to apply (haste, flight, shielding, and invis being the only five I can find). Still would make for a particularly nasty spell to get something like Haste, Flight, and Invis all on the whole party at the same time.

It still seems dreadfully unfinished, but I like what I see so far.

Burst Concealment (with Great Seed to make it Ex total concealment) looks to be pretty nasty...

Thrash + Grave Pull = vacuum cleaner!

Doc Roc
2010-05-01, 06:24 PM
One thing to consider is that most of the buffs have relatively short durations. A goal here was to phrase the use of buffs in terms of actions spent, not costs deferred. It definitely is really unfinished. It's extremely hard work, from an intellectual standpoint. Probably one of the most obnoxious projects I've undertaken. I'd rather be writing kernel code than working on this.

Doc Roc
2010-05-02, 07:02 AM
Temporal, Offensive added.

I think we'll be straight with just another couple soft BC\Status effects.

Milskidasith
2010-05-02, 08:11 PM
New seeds are looking good. Temporal Offensive provides some fairly powerful, but not SoL, status effects on enemies, and can be used on allies as a hard shield (for the greater one). Shield manages to be useful at all levels, while not being broken at low levels due to damage reduction. Cloud is... cloudy. Good for fights in small areaswhere you can lock enemies into place. Could get strange when used with Temporal: Offensive, though; is it one per round, or one overall that can be affected?

Doc Roc
2010-05-02, 08:49 PM
New seeds are looking good. Temporal Offensive provides some fairly powerful, but not SoL, status effects on enemies, and can be used on allies as a hard shield (for the greater one). Shield manages to be useful at all levels, while not being broken at low levels due to damage reduction. Cloud is... cloudy. Good for fights in small areaswhere you can lock enemies into place. Could get strange when used with Temporal: Offensive, though; is it one per round, or one overall that can be affected?

To be decided. :) I lean towards LAWLNO, but it will depend on how it tests.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-02, 09:39 PM
Something confusing to me:

Temporal, Offensive has the Secret "Slow Dance for Two". Is there any particular reason why anyone would prefer to use this rather than Burst, Cone, or Chain?

It would almost certainly be more cost effective to use Temporal, Offensive, in the Major slot so you effectively slow them, then apply the Burst seed, rather than pay an additional 24 to affect a single additional target. Even when you apply Oddly Selective, you still come out ahead of the deal...

Doc Roc
2010-05-02, 10:36 PM
Note the special on temporal offensive.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-02, 11:21 PM
Note the special on temporal offensive.

Then why bother with it? Even Slow would hit number of targets = CL. Only hitting one target, period, or two for an obscenely insane cost, seems pretty much a waste of time.

I blow my entire turn to make ONE GUY Slowed for two rounds...

Milskidasith
2010-05-02, 11:51 PM
Then why bother with it? Even Slow would hit number of targets = CL. Only hitting one target, period, or two for an obscenely insane cost, seems pretty much a waste of time.

I blow my entire turn to make ONE GUY Slowed for two rounds...

I'll admit, the cost may be a bit high on the major, but the minor is fine (though more targets couldn't hurt) and the greater is a pretty absurd status effect for this class (out of combat for either 2 rounds). Plus, it's how many people are affected; I could be reading it wrong, but you could still use it as a burst, it's just only one person could fail their save.

Also, I have a question: What happens if you make a trailing cloud AoE? What would the duration on it be; the duration of trailing, or of the cloud? If you touched the cloud, would you start trailing a new cloud?

Trailing can get lawlridiculous pretty fast.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-02, 11:51 PM
Then why bother with it? Even Slow would hit number of targets = CL. Only hitting one target, period, or two for an obscenely insane cost, seems pretty much a waste of time.

I blow my entire turn to make ONE GUY Slowed for two rounds...

I'm not sure it's that bad. After all, in fights where the party already has a battlefield control advantage, it's not bad. Also note: With that slow, you can get damage, and more.

For example:

Minor: Force
Lock: (Scholar Savant)
Minor: Elemental
Major: Temporal, Offensive
Lock: (Wild Mage)
Major: Sonic

4d6 Force damage
+4d6 Elemental damage
+8d6 Sonic Damage
+ 2 round slow

So, 16d6 damage, 2 round slow, and Save vs Fort, Reflex or Will, your choice.

Average damage? 56. Successful save drops it to 35 average damage.

Doc Roc
2010-05-03, 12:24 AM
I'm not sure it's that bad. After all, in fights where the party already has a battlefield control advantage, it's not bad. Also note: With that slow, you can get damage, and more.

For example:

Minor: Force
Lock: (Scholar Savant)
Minor: Elemental
Major: Temporal, Offensive
Lock: (Wild Mage)
Major: Sonic

4d6 Force damage
+4d6 Elemental damage
+8d6 Sonic Damage
+ 2 round slow

So, 16d6 damage, 2 round slow, and Save vs Fort, Reflex or Will, your choice.

Average damage? 56. Successful save drops it to 35 average damage.

And that's at will. Part of it is that basically, we have to keep certain options a little weaker, because you can do them all bloody day.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-03, 12:27 AM
And that's at will. Part of it is that basically, we have to keep certain options a little weaker, because you can do them all bloody day.

Warlocks can slow multiple targets at-will plus damage by using Hindering Blast + (insert blast shape invocation of choice). Heck, they can apply negative levels in the same manner with Utterdark Blast.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-03, 12:30 AM
And that's at will. Part of it is that basically, we have to keep certain options a little weaker, because you can do them all bloody day.

Exactly. This class is running at double the damage of the Warlock, even with the weakest options and no secrets. Sacrificing duration on the CC isn't a major issue.

The PP recharge mechanism makes that 20pp cost a bit less harsh (recover 1pp a round means you have a full pool every fight).

EDIT: Also, check the planned theme for Reaper-Kissed. Damage over Time and Negative levels.

Human Paragon 3
2010-05-03, 11:57 AM
Guys, this is very difficult to understand even for me, and I am a pretty practiced gamer. The learning curve is through the roof, and I think this has gotten away from you. Even Fax's original design was a little complex for my liking and had a number of issues (primarily with saving throws and time spent designing spells at the table) but this is ridiculous.

Call me slow if you wish, but I think it would take an exceptional person to immediately grasp and be able to use these mechanics, and I don't think the results justify the level of complexity.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-03, 11:59 AM
Guys, this is very difficult to understand even for me, and I am a pretty practiced gamer. The learning curve is through the roof, and I think this has gotten away from you. Even Fax's original design was a little complex for my liking and had a number of issues (primarily with saving throws and time spent designing spells at the table) but this is ridiculous.

Call me slow if you wish, but I think it would take an exceptional person to immediately grasp and be able to use these mechanics, and I don't think the results justify the level of complexity.

The mechanic basics aren't that hard to grasp, though the advanced portions take a bit more work.

Lappy9000
2010-05-03, 12:16 PM
Guys, this is very difficult to understand even for me, and I am a pretty practiced gamer. The learning curve is through the roof, and I think this has gotten away from you. Even Fax's original design was a little complex for my liking and had a number of issues (primarily with saving throws and time spent designing spells at the table) but this is ridiculous.

Call me slow if you wish, but I think it would take an exceptional person to immediately grasp and be able to use these mechanics, and I don't think the results justify the level of complexity.I'm giving it some leeway 'cause it's a project in the works, but on a personal level, I'm inclined to agree. I had a pretty good grasp on the old sorcerer write-up, but I simply cannot understand a thing that's going on here, and the example doesn't help (especially when the sample PC's have names I cannot pronounce and targets that sound like class features)

As far as the slot system is concerned, I'm of the opinion that any class feature that requires imagery to understand is bad design.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-03, 12:22 PM
I'm giving it some leeway 'cause it's a project in the works, but on a personal level, I'm inclined to agree. I had a pretty good grasp on the old sorcerer write-up, but I simply cannot understand a thing that's going on here, and the example doesn't help (especially when the sample PC's have names I cannot pronounce and targets that sound like class features)

As far as the slot system is concerned, I'm of the opinion that any class feature that requires imagery to understand is bad design.

I think of it as half Magic of Incarnum, half Warlock.

The thing you're seeing is not a class mechanic. It's a spell design mechanic. It's the goal of putting in place rules for creating spells that are balanced, and Rule-0-proof.

Lappy9000
2010-05-03, 12:28 PM
I think of it as half Magic of Incarnum, half Warlock.Know of 'em, don't know how they work [<--excellent sample of the audience you might need to tailor this to]

he thing you're seeing is not a class mechanic. It's a spell design mechanic. It's the goal of putting in place rules for creating spells that are balanced, and Rule-0-proof.How so? :smallconfused:

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-03, 12:32 PM
Know of 'em, don't know how they work [<--excellent sample of the audience you might need to tailor this to]
How so? :smallconfused:

How are spells made in 3.5?

You research, design, and bring it to a DM for approval.

How does this make a spell?

Take up to 2 minor effects, 2 medium effects, and 1 big effect from the lists. Add in a disadvantage, a quirk or two, and the option to beef it up a bit with augment.

Done.

Lappy9000
2010-05-03, 12:42 PM
How are spells made in 3.5?

You research, design, and bring it to a DM for approval.

How does this make a spell?

Take up to 2 minor effects, 2 medium effects, and 1 big effect from the lists. Add in a disadvantage, a quirk or two, and the option to beef it up a bit with augment.

Done.I'm sorry, I still don't get it. Heck, I don't even know where to start.

afroakuma
2010-05-03, 12:53 PM
For the record, nothing is Rule-0-proof.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-03, 12:54 PM
I'm sorry, I still don't get it. Heck, I don't even know where to start.

Start at level 1. Sorceror knows the elemental seed, and one other. Let's say... Shield. Let's also give him his one secret. From the Elemental Seed, we choose the Strong secret.

Sorceror has access to the basics only. He has 1 slot. It's a minor slot.

Every round, he can make a spell, and cast it.

He puts a seed in a slot. So let's say he wants to shoot someone. He puts elemental into the slot, and chooses a damage type. Let's say, Acid.

The elemental seed, in a minor slot, does 1d6 damage + 1d6/ 2 Caster levels. (max 7 CL).

At level 1, it's 1d6 Acid only (Reflex Halves).
The sorceror wants to up his odds, so he uses his strong secret, and spends 3pp to raise the save DC 1 point.

The save was originally: 10+Cha Mod. Now it's 11+Cha mod.


Let's say an enemy closes the distance to the party fighter.

Next round, the sorceror chooses to make a new spell.

He puts shield into his minor slot, and targets the party fighter. For 1 round, half of the fighter's damage taken is absorbed (to a max of 10).

That's the concept. Every round, you make a new spell on the fly.

afroakuma
2010-05-03, 12:59 PM
He gets the concept, which is held over from Fax's original sorcerer.

The difficulty lies in the complexity of setting up a new spell each round.

I expect the added confusion in this version over the previous version is due to the locks and slot qualifiers.

Myself, I've read through it all and understand it, but I don't think it'll fly.

Lappy9000
2010-05-03, 01:13 PM
He gets the concept, which is held over from Fax's original sorcerer.Yeah, the concept I get; my problem is that I couldn't discern most of PhoenixRivers's explanation that from the write-up.


The difficulty lies in the complexity of setting up a new spell each round.

I expect the added confusion in this version over the previous version is due to the locks and slot qualifiers.That's the one.


DescriptionBut, yes, thank you. It's making more sense now. Like I said, the write-up may need some cleaning to make that easier to pick out.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-03, 01:18 PM
At level 1, don't worry about locks. Suffice it to say, all of your spells will have this:

Minor Slot.

At higher levels, you can deal with locks, but for now?

You pick seeds, by the table. This is just like picking spells for a 3.5 sorceror. Go through the list, pick 2 (one must be elemental), and done. These are the seeds your sorceror knows.

Now, seeds go in slots, and that defines the spell.

Put an elemental seed in the minor slot, and you get the elemental seed's listed effect for a minor slot, when you cast that.

Put a shield seed in a minor slot, and you get the shield seed's listed effect for a minor slot, when you cast that.

With me so far?

Milskidasith
2010-05-03, 01:38 PM
OK, here's a better way to explain locks:

You start with one minor slot. If you add a lock, you have two minor slots and a major slot. After that, you can add a great lock to get a great seed, or another lock to get a second major slot. You can only use the great lock past level 14.

That's a lot easier, and doesn't need imagery.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-03, 01:56 PM
OK, here's a better way to explain locks:

You start with one minor slot. If you add a lock, you have two minor slots and a major slot. After that, you can add a great lock to get a great seed, or another lock to get a second major slot. You can only use the great lock past level 14.

That's a lot easier, and doesn't need imagery.

This.

Level 1-5: Spells have a minor slot.
Level 6-13: Spells have a minor slot. If you want more, you put a trapping (key) into a lock. Trappings are always negative. They're drawbacks for the power.

So, the first key you put in? Gives you another minor slot, and a major slot. Now your spell has all 3.

The second key? gives a 2nd major slot.

Level 14+: As above, but you can put a key into a 3rd lock. The great lock. That gives you one more slot, the Great slot.

So: Level 1-5: 1 Minor Slot

Level 6-13: Any of the following:
1 Minor slot
2 Minor Slots, 1 major slot, and a trapping
2 Minor Slots, 2 major slots, and 2 trappings

Level 14+: Any of the following:
1 Minor slot
2 Minor Slots, 1 major slot, and a trapping
2 Minor Slots, 2 major slots, and 2 trappings
2 Minor Slots, 1 major slot, 1 Great slot, and 2 trappings
2 Minor Slots, 2 major slots, 1 Great slot, and 3 trappings

Milskidasith
2010-05-03, 02:36 PM
This.

Level 1-5: Spells have a minor slot.
Level 6-13: Spells have a minor slot. If you want more, you put a trapping (key) into a lock. Trappings are always negative. They're drawbacks for the power.

So, the first key you put in? Gives you another minor slot, and a major slot. Now your spell has all 3.

The second key? gives a 2nd major slot.

Level 14+: As above, but you can put a key into a 3rd lock. The great lock. That gives you one more slot, the Great slot.

So: Level 1-5: 1 Minor Slot

Level 6-13: Any of the following:
1 Minor slot
2 Minor Slots, 1 major slot, and a trapping
2 Minor Slots, 2 major slots, and 2 trappings

Level 14+: Any of the following:
1 Minor slot
2 Minor Slots, 1 major slot, and a trapping
2 Minor Slots, 2 major slots, and 2 trappings
2 Minor Slots, 1 major slot, 1 Great slot, and 2 trappings
2 Minor Slots, 2 major slots, 1 Great slot, and 3 trappings

Actually, you can take trappings at any point; you can have a minor, a major, and a trapping as soon as you get your third seed known. In fact, it's a great idea to do that, so you get tripled secrets with the scholar trapping.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-03, 03:11 PM
Actually, you can take trappings at any point; you can have a minor, a major, and a trapping as soon as you get your third seed known. In fact, it's a great idea to do that, so you get tripled secrets with the scholar trapping.

I do believe that the scholar trapping's bonus secrets only work once. It's not "each time", it's "the next time".

Milskidasith
2010-05-03, 03:15 PM
I do believe that the scholar trapping's bonus secrets only work once. It's not "each time", it's "the next time".

That makes it nearly useless; all you can do is get one more secret known and delay your secrets a bit.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-03, 03:17 PM
That makes it nearly useless; all you can do is get one more secret known and delay your secrets a bit.

Yeah, never said it was awesome. Just commented on how it was written.

Milskidasith
2010-05-03, 03:24 PM
Yeah, never said it was awesome. Just commented on how it was written.

Yeah, my interpretation was broken, your interpretation is probably hardly worth taking, though as far as trappings go the downsides to it really aren't that bad. Ah well.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-03, 04:30 PM
Possible new trapping:

Biomancy
The Sorcerer uses his own life energy to help fuel the phenomenal cosmic power. He takes one point of damage per power point spent on the effect. Effects which prevent or redirect this damage cannot be used to prevent or redirect this damage. This damage may not be healed by Fast Healing, Regeneration (and automatically counts as penetrating the Regeneration to cause Lethal damage), or by any spell or spell-like ability. This damage is untyped, SR does not protect against this damage, and is not considered to be physical damage. If the Sorcerer somehow finds a way to be immune to this damage, the effect fails.

Glimbur
2010-05-03, 04:40 PM
It's quite possible to cast spells without using power points, in which case the trapping has no downside.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-03, 05:21 PM
It's quite possible to cast spells without using power points, in which case the trapping has no downside.

How would this be possible? A spell that uses no power points has no effects attached to it...

Doc Roc
2010-05-03, 06:07 PM
It's pretty clear that the explanation of sorcerer needs some meat and a serious rewrite. Which is sort of what I was hoping to find out anyway.

Secrets are just secrets, used like augmentation on a psionic power. The seeds that compose the spell will still do their thang even if you don't augment. However, basically, I'm going to need help from someone with a little more skill when it comes to expository writing, and someone who has no or a limited grasp on the sorc. I probably could get it to a reasonably understandable level, but it'd take time I don't have if I wanted to solo it.


Have added HOW I MAKE FOR SPELLS section, and moved the diagram to after the exposition.

Lappy9000
2010-05-03, 07:03 PM
Have added HOW I MAKE FOR SPELLS section, and moved the diagram to after the exposition.Okay, now that section's awesome. And I like the look of Cantrip.

Doc Roc
2010-05-03, 07:13 PM
Hopefully, soon, Flickerdart will have pulled together a less.... undesirable diagram, and things will be great.

Lappy9000
2010-05-03, 07:17 PM
Hopefully, soon, Flickerdart will have pulled together a less.... undesirable diagram, and things will be great.It looks pretty cool; it's just not that practical.

Doc Roc
2010-05-03, 07:23 PM
So the whole spell-composition thing.

Re: AA
I don't know what you mean about make-a-new-spell each round. There's less of that here than there was in the old sorcerer, and more in the way of tactical options. And this is less complicated than cartomancy.


Ton of clean up here and there. Things should be a lot more clear, and I've duplicated information in some places to try and maximize proximity of mechanics to explanation

Milskidasith
2010-05-04, 12:29 AM
Trail can get pretty nutty, in a completely good way. Just imagine trailing shield buffs, or trailing stonebirthed walls, or trailing a cloud that teleports one person forward in time a round. That kind of stuff is hilarious.

Quicken and Cantrip look good. Cantrip doesn't cost much, but you get it early when five points is worth it, and allowing only a minor seed doesn't do much. A feat to make it an immediate action probably wouldn't be too overpowered, considering the power of most minor seeds.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-04, 06:21 AM
Trail can get pretty nutty, in a completely good way. Just imagine trailing shield buffs, or trailing stonebirthed walls, or trailing a cloud that teleports one person forward in time a round. That kind of stuff is hilarious.

Quicken and Cantrip look good. Cantrip doesn't cost much, but you get it early when five points is worth it, and allowing only a minor seed doesn't do much. A feat to make it an immediate action probably wouldn't be too overpowered, considering the power of most minor seeds.

Yeah, my goal when discussing Cantrip with Doc Roc was to make something useful, that would be used, but wouldn't overwhelm the class. 5pp is most of your PP at level 2, so it has a significant cost at low level. The encounter limitation keeps it from being overused later.

As for Quicken, Doc Roc's idea was that around a time where D20r wizards were getting level 10 slots, the sorceror needed something qood. Quicken, we thought, allowed a lot of firepower to be sent out, but had a reasonable cost for that. Again, the 1/encounter limit keeps things from getting out of hand.

Doc Roc
2010-05-04, 07:03 AM
Stonebirth is proving deeply problematic.

Fax Celestis
2010-05-04, 10:29 AM
D20r wizards were getting level 10 slots

They are getting 10th slots.

They are not getting new spells to put in them; either old spells that were too good at 9th are getting bumped up or the slot is for metamagic use. Clerics will likely not be getting the same treatment: one of wizardry's benefits is an advanced capability for harnessing the borders of magic's capability (best evidenced via having a casting potential higher than anyone else).


Quicken...is probably not sticking around. The model I have in mind for metamagic consists of swift-action powered feats or spells. Quicken, as it stands, probably will be not brought forward. It alone is source of more wizard-drama than possibly any other metamagic.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-04, 10:31 AM
They are getting 10th slots.

They are not getting new spells to put in them; either old spells that were too good at 9th are getting bumped up or the slot is for metamagic use. Clerics will likely not be getting the same treatment: one of wizardry's benefits is an advanced capability for harnessing the borders of magic's capability (best evidenced via having a casting potential higher than anyone else).

That's what I was saying. 10th level slots were the justification for sorcerors quickening their compositions. After all, if a wizard pushes the edges of theory, magic is part of a sorceror. They live it, breath it. It is home. As such, using what they already have with greater finesse and proficiency seems reasonable.


...is probably not sticking around. The model I have in mind for metamagic consists of swift-action powered feats or spells. Quicken, as it stands, probably will be not brought forward. It alone is source of more wizard-drama than possibly any other metamagic.
Provided you don't want to make this a solo project for Fax and Fax only, it would likely be quite helpful if such thoughts, models, and ideas, were brought forth at the outset of your project.

In addition, Sorcerors aren't using spells in the traditional sense, and as such, without a bit of work, would not be able to benefit from metamagic.

As for drama? Twin, Chain, Linked Power, all provide more issues than quicken. Heck, many spells provide far more drama than the metamagics.

And as for the largest drama inducing meta? Heighten spell. Easily the most abusable of all the metamagics.

Fax Celestis
2010-05-04, 10:40 AM
Provided you don't want to make this a solo project for Fax and Fax only, it would likely be quite helpful if such thoughts, models, and ideas, were brought forth at the outset of your project.I have not asked for aid on the Wizard as of yet. The framework is happily linked in my sig for people's perusal and ruminations prior to it's completion. Metamagic is not on my plate, as it were, yet, so I have not yet started formalizing what exactly I want to do with it.


In addition, Sorcerors aren't using spells in the traditional sense, and as such, without a bit of work, would not be able to benefit from metamagic.Correct. I don't doubt that a sorceror's ability to cast two spells in one round will make it comparable to a wizard's better, single, formalized spell.


As for drama? Twin, Chain, Linked Power, all provide more issues than quicken....none of which are OGL and therefore are not within the bounds of this project. Believe me when I say that nothing frustrates me more than having to fight with the OGL: I would love to include Incarnum-, Binding-, and Tome of Battle-style material within d20r, but I am forced to skirt their bounds rather than be hit with a C&D.


And as for the largest drama inducing meta? Heighten spell. Easily the most abusable of all the metamagics.Heighten is rescuable; Quicken is not.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-04, 10:50 AM
I have not asked for aid on the Wizard as of yet. The framework is happily linked in my sig for people's perusal and ruminations prior to it's completion. Metamagic is not on my plate, as it were, yet, so I have not yet started formalizing what exactly I want to do with it.Interesting, as I've not provided any "help" for such. It was used as a reference point for attempting to balance one class to another.

Correct. I don't doubt that a sorceror's ability to cast two spells in one round will make it comparable to a wizard's better, single, formalized spell.
...wait a second. When I was referencing quicken, I was referencing the Quicken ability of the sorceror (as is explicitly referenced on the sorceror google doc). Your response was that it probably wasn't sticking around.

Is that what you were meaning? Or were you referring to something entirely different, that we weren't speaking about?


Heighten is rescuable; Quicken is not.Interesting opinion. My views are precisely opposite on both.

Fax Celestis
2010-05-04, 10:57 AM
I was referring to "Quicken" as metamagic feat not sticking around. The sorcerer's quickening ability is fine.

As for Heighten, if it is reduced to a DC increaser (as it was likely intended) rather than allowing it to physically create higher level spells (as it actually does), it is something that can be worked with.

Quicken, on the other hand, has two modes: one spell a round (off) or two spells a round (on). There's very little granularity to work with (only the number of levels it increases the spell by, and as it stands it pretty much has to be a feat) and as such there's not much about it that can be fiddled with until it gets into a working form.

Heighten, at least, has the capacity to be tinkered with on a variety of levels (spell slot adjustment, DC adjustment, functional level adjustment [if any], spell or feat potential) to get it into a functioning form.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-04, 11:06 AM
I was referring to "Quicken" as metamagic feat not sticking around. The sorcerer's quickening ability is fine.

As for Heighten, if it is reduced to a DC increaser (as it was likely intended) rather than allowing it to physically create higher level spells (as it actually does), it is something that can be worked with. Quicken, on the other hand, has two modes: one spell a round (no quicken) or two spells a round (quicken). There's very little granularity to work with (only the number of levels it increases the spell by, and as it stands it pretty much has to be a feat) and as such there's not much about it that can be fiddled with until it gets into a working form. Heighten, on the other hand, has the capacity to be tinkered with on a variety of levels (spell slot adjustment, DC adjustment, functional level adjustment [if any], spell or feat potential) to get it into a functioning form.

Quicken can be tinkered with on a variety of levels too.

CL caps to quickened spells,
CL caps to all spells cast that round.
spell slot adjustment
DC adjustment
Required concentration checks
Restrictions on combining with other metamagic feats.

For example: Let's say we make quicken a +4 level adjustment, halve your caster level for the round (possibly limiting access to certain spell levels), and provide a -2 DC to any save required by the spell. In addition, a spell modified with quicken spell cannot be modified with other metamagic effects. In exchange, it casts as a swift action (but must be performed at the beginning of the turn),

Now, you have a choice. 1 spell without quicken (at full power), or 2 weaker spells with quicken. Now, if functions quite differently, but provides a similar end effect.

So a level 10 wizard that quickens a level 1 spell uses a level 5 slot. For the round, his CL is 5, limiting him to level 3 spells. His second spell is a level 3 spell, as a standard action.

Were he to not use quicken, he could drop a single 5th level spell.

In essence, quicken begins to look a bit like Arcane Spellsurge.

Poof, and granularity was created.

Fax Celestis
2010-05-04, 11:11 AM
While that is entirely possible (and yes, I hadn't considered those options because, as I said before, I haven't even started tinkering with metamagic yet), the point remains: d20r is primarily my project. People are perfectly welcome to do things with it (as Doc Roc, Lappy9000, Magnor Criol, and some others amazingly have), but its final inclusion has to fit within what I perceive to be a comfortable, complete game. When I get to metamagic, I will certainly listen you and others' thoughts on the matter, but realize that I'm taking your words with a grain of salt.

EDIT: And while I am happy with how the sorcerer stands in this form, I am not entirely happy with how noob-friendly it is. It is a very complex mechanic, and in order for it to be included in core material, it is going to need a lot of clarification. I understand that is in progress, so I am willing to--and already am--waiting patiently for such to arise so that I may make a better judgment at that point in time.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-04, 11:13 AM
While that is entirely possible (and yes, I hadn't considered those options because, as I said before, I haven't even started tinkering with metamagic yet), the point remains: d20r is primarily my project. People are perfectly welcome to do things with it (as Doc Roc, Lappy9000, Magnor Criol, and some others amazingly have), but its final inclusion has to fit within what I perceive to be a comfortable, complete game. When I get to metamagic, I will certainly listen you and others' thoughts on the matter, but realize that I'm taking your words with a grain of salt.

Hey, I'm just speaking of babies and bathwater. Action Economy is a good tool to use in class balance. You just have to make sure that what you get after is functionally on par with what you have to use to get it.

Doc Roc
2010-05-04, 07:38 PM
I expect no progress tonight. Anyone who wants to suggest different language for portions of sorcerer is welcome to, and the clarification would be welcome.

Many secrets have been cleaned up, and some wording fuzziness has been killed. Moving towards legibility.

Amphetryon
2010-05-05, 09:11 PM
Those poor moogians. :smallfrown:

Some of the trappings appear to be without disadvantage. An unfinished product, or a feature?

Doc Roc
2010-05-05, 10:45 PM
Those poor moogians. :smallfrown:

Some of the trappings appear to be without disadvantage. An unfinished product, or a feature?

Unfinished, unfortunately. No trapping will be left without unwanted pain-trains.

Doc Roc
2010-05-07, 12:36 PM
Trappings updated. Document formatting updated. Fork finalized.

I think that it's pretty readable now.