PDA

View Full Version : house rules, house rules, house rules....



Kol Korran
2010-05-01, 03:01 AM
so... soon i'll be DMing, after a looooonng time where i haven't DMed. i've started compiling all kinds of tidbits for the game. some are actual rules, some are clarifications, some are just explenations on how i run things. i thought i'd ask the playground's advice on these.
warning, there are quite a few. some of these i've taken from others on the forum, but i don't remember who. thank you all the same.

Also: i'm looking for a good alternative on the existing death and raise dead rules. the level behind sucks too much, but not losing anything would feel like a cop out. i'm thinking of peremnantly losing 2 CON each time you die. thoughts?

as to the house rules:

General


The game must flow: if we don't know a rule, I make something on the fly usually. I'm not a stickler for rules. if we find the ruling later on- good. But it's not retroactive.
XP: I don't give XP for encounters. Instead I give XP for accomplishments. The way I do this is I usually calculate the amount of XP needed to "reasonably" achieve a goal, and that is it. if you're smart and can circumvent most of the challenge- you got more XP for less fighting. if you're dumb and keep butting your head against the wall- the same XP as if you weren't as dumb.
"Oh, I forgot...": If I, or you, forgot some bonus- then it doesn't apply. the same goes for minuses- again, the game must flow (you can rationalize it as the magic not working momentarily, or the character not aware to make use of it). I trust you to not "forget" minuses. The rule applies to me as well. You throw most of the dice: when the monster tries to hit you, you throw a defensive roll with the DC I tell you. The same when you cast a spell on a monster- a spell roll. This leads to transparency and less headache for me. and strangely enough- to more interesting and tactical battles. The target number for d20s is always 22+ the enemy's modifier (attack roll or saving throw most likely). The chances come up equal to the normal system. I'll tell you what the target number is.
Defensive roll: Lets say you have an AC of 16, and the monster has +8 to hit. it hits you on an 8 or more, meaning you have 35% of avoiding getting hit (1-7) i calculate "monster attack value"= 22+to hit (check out the percentages later to be hit later, it works out). This comes out as 30. i tell you to roll d20 and you add your AC. so you need 14 or more to avoid getting hit. Percentage wise, this gives you 35 % of avoiding getting hit- 14-20.
spell roll is similar- spell DC14 and the monster has +2 to save. it needs 12 to succeed, or 55% to fail (1-11). monster's save DC is 22+ saving throw= 24. you need 10 or more to succeedon your roll (you add the DC14), or 55% to succeed (10-20)
Criticals are 1, 1-2, and 1-3 according to the weapon confirmation is being hit again.
Most opposed rolls (for skills mostly): I assume the opponent rolled 10. sometimes however I do roll. If we'll be using the "Action Points" rules of Eberron, some elite opponents might use these to upgrade their roles. (as explained in the book)
i prefer it like this, but we can return to me rolling for the monsters if it's too complicated, i'd suggest you give it a try.


Races: (we intend to play in Eberron, so these were mostly a few fixes for the races there, and explenations)

I'll allow quite a few races probably, but there might be some background readjustment to fit the world.
Shifter: they get an extra shifter feat at 5th level, and every 5 levels afterwards.
Changling: the shape****ing is not an illusion, but an actual change. Thus it cannot be disbelieved. However the change affect the body only, not the clothes. For that the changling may need disguises or magical gear.
Changling: come up with several quick personas. Each will have its own ID, one ID is 22 forgery check, two others at 18, all the rest at 15. the Appraise skill is used to detect forgery.
Kalashtar: you can choose to forgo the psionic points in favor of +2 charisma instead.
Warforged: the basic plating (that gives +2) doesn't incur any Spell failure check (no 5%)


Classes: (the artificer isn't likely to get played, but just in case.)

Check out the SRD page: http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantClasses.htm it has variants for the common classes. (such as Chaotic good paladins, totem barbarians, and so on). Some might interest you. However, I'll need to approve any such variant. Regardless, the following apply.
I allow classes from the "complete" series, psionics, and PHB2 (but no beguiler). Also Tome of Battle, on a trial basis. (since I never played with it before)
Multi classing: Monks and Paladins can multi class freely.
The "favored class" mechanic of races does not apply. multiclass freely.
Spontaneous casters don't increase casting time when using metamagic feats. And they can learn quicken spell.
All casters gain the effects of the Heighten spell feat (really, it's something every caster should know how to do), but that does not count as a metamagic feat for purposes of qualifying for PRCs. (consider it an ability, not a feat)
Barbarians don't have intimidate on their class skill (turned to influence, see following), but they are considered to have maxed out intimidate for purposes of shaking foes.
Divine casters still need a free hand, and are therefore most times limited to a light shield, check out the "Shields" under "equipment" though
Bards immediately have max skill at any level in two chosen perform skills.
The "turn undead" mechanic is altered. Clerics, paladins and favored souls get "divine energy" attempts which number the same as turn undead attempts. These can be used for divine feats. The turn undead ability is now considered a divine feat. Clerics and paladins get one free divine feat at first level (however they do NOT start with the ability to turn undead. They can take that feat, or another one instead). PRCs that require undead turning can be accessed just by having the "divine energy". However, if the PRC improves actual turning, the character must have the "turn undead" feat".
Monk: gets full BAB. the unarmed attacks are adjusted accordingly.
Paladin: gets good will save (in addition to fort), and 4 skill points per level. There is no "detect evil" class feature anymore. (see spells)
Ranger: if you have another fighting style in mind (sunderer supreme!) then talk to me.
Rogue: there are two new feats that enable you to cause sneak attack damage to undead and constructs.
Wizard and Sorcerer can exchange their familiar with either a craft homunculus, some feat that is directly connected to magical arts, one of the "+2 to save" feats or toughness.
Sorcerer gets Eschew Materials as a free feat.
Wizards do not need to pay for writing spells in their books. It's a silly rule that adds nothing but complication.
The artificer class as written in the Eberron Campaign Setting undergoes some changes, due to the new nature of crafting items (see more following):
Instead of a craft reserve the artificer gets a "material reduction reserve"- each level he gets a reserve of 1/10 the added treasure as determined by the "Wealth By Level" table for that level that he can use to reduce magic items cost. These do carry over across levels!
Also, instead of "Craft Essence" the artificer can retain 1/2 of an item creation cost of items he drains in the form of magical energy in shards, and use it for creating other items
Artificer is proficient in light armor, no shields.
the artificer makes two checks to create a magical item: one to emulate the needed perquisites (use magic device), the other to actually make the item (spellcraft). Artificers do not get +2 CL to emulate properties!


Skills: these drew heavily from the 4E skill system

Many skills have been joined (as will be detailed). Skill points however don't change. Yes, you will be able to do more. If your class has access to one of the grouped skills, you have access to the whole skill.
Knowledge geography and knowledge local are together knowledge (region). So far the regions for the game are as the regions in the book. The skills entail all "regular" info about the region, and can be used in synergy for various checks, such as history, survival, gather information and so on.
Craft, Profession, Ride, knowledge (region) are class skills to all classes.
You get knowledge (your birth region) rank 3 for free. If your character is well traveled, you can divide this between several regions.
You can only add one Synergy bonus to a skill!
Concentration: The DC to Cast/ manifest defensively is not 15+Spell level, but rather: 10 + BAB of threatening foe + Spell Level of the spell you are trying to cast. If there are several foes, the roll is checked against all. Each added enemy adds +1 to the DC, to the maximum of +4
Climb, Swim and Jump are grouped together as "Athletics."
Balance, escape artist and Tumble are now grouped under "Acrobatics"
Tumble Checks to avoid AoO: the DC isn't 15 but 10 + BAB of threatening foe+ 2-5 for problematic area. If there are several foes, the roll is checked against all. Each added enemy adds +1 to the DC, to the maximum of +4
Move silently and Hide are grouped together as "Stealth".
Disable device, sleight of hand and Pick lock are grouped together under "Thievery". However, you use dex for pick lock and sleight of hand, and int for disable device.
Forgery is under appraise. You use appraise to find out forgery. Forgery checks have a -4 to the test.
Spot and listen and search are now "Perception" (all keyed to wisdom)
Gather information, Intimidate, Bluff and Diplomacy are now "influence". I basically follow the diplomacy rules on Giantitp diplomacy rules. With slight variants for bluff and intimidation.
Decipher script is under "linguistics". The skill represents a General understanding of languages, every 2 total score (including the int bonus. This replaces the normal mechanism for languages) equal another fully understood language. For DS the skill functions as normal.
Craft skill can add synergy to Spellcraft checks to craft magic items. (see below) as appropriate. Decided by the DM.
Knowledge checks for monsters: there are 5 DCs- 10,15,20,25,30 corresponding to how rare the creature is. Success means knowing general CR, Type, and 2 main characteristics. Any 5 above the DC gives out 2 more facts. The check does not reveal class levels or specific alterations of individuals (and for some there will be), it gives information on common creatures of that type.
Some creatures have less common variants (like special mindflayers, or Stone giant Elders for example). This could be identified with a normal check +5 or +10.
Templates can also be identified, and get their own DC. For example, a ghost stone giant will receive DC 15 for the stone giant, and DC 25 for the Ghost.
Skill tests/ Extended Tests/ Whatever:
Sometimes a skill won't be used just in a d20 roll. I may have other creative ideas. One simple example is finding a shelter for the night: the party rolls one survival, one perception, and one stealth check, the results are added up and the score is reduced from a general "danger meter" of the region. What's left are the chances for a nightly encounter.
Another example: persuading someone might require several successes on different skills before you fail. This will be dealt with in role play, just don't necessarily expect a single Influence roll to automatically yield success.


Feats: (true, not a comprehensive list, but it addresses a few minor issues)

Weapon focus is for a group of weapons, not just one weapon- swords/ maces/ flails/ axes and so on. Also, there is no greater weapon focus. Instead at level 6 the plus increases to +2, at 11 to +3, at 16 to +4, at 20 to +5 You can take the same feat for other groups.
Weapon specialization is similar to weapon focus. At level 8 it's +4, level 12 it's +6 level 16 it's +8 level 20 it's +10. You can take the same feat for other groups.
All the skills enhancing feats are gone. Instead there is just "skill focus" +2 to any one skill +1 / 5 levels. Prestige class and feat prequisites change accordingly.
For each Magic Item creation feats: you can take another feat for every category that eliminates your chances of creating a malfunctioning or cursed item.
"Turn Undead" is now a feat requiring having access to "divine energy". Check out the classes about divine characters.
If you have SA: A new feat - 50% chance to have your sneak attack hit undead and constructs (not oozes). And another feat upgrades this to 100% (Knee caps, arms, visors and such are vital enough even if on an undead or unloving body parts)
Dodge grants +1 dodge Bonus to AC period. Not just against one enemy, no need to declare.
Weapon finesse has no requirements.
You can't take the Leadership feat. If you want Cohorts- role play to get them.


Combat: i think i've focused a bit too much on the item damage, but that's since our group for some reason though it unreasonable for items not to be damaged. i think this rules keep the risk, with avoiding it happening to often.

Death and Dying: You are disabled from 0 to negative your CON modifier, and dying down to negative CON score. For example with a CON of 18 you are disabled from 0 to -4, and dying until -17. At -18 you are dead. However with a negative CON modifier, 6 CON for example, you are automatically dying from 0 and dead at -6.
Notice tumbling and concentration under skills.
10 seconds rule: you may ask things to clear up, as long as i don't think you're stalling. i'll be counting the 10 seconds- if you can't decide, you're dumbfounded.
Speaking: 6 words per character in a round.
8 items per character for immediate use (move action or free action as appropriate to the item) other than what's in her hands. spell component pouch and holy symbols are not included. Mark these, tell me in advance of anything you might think is unordinary. (hold portal scroll for example). These include batches of ammunition (1 quiver, sack of bullets, or 5 thrown weapons all equal one item), other weapons, potions, scrolls, alchemical or magical items.
All other items on a character are considered stored- taking 1 round (or at times more) to get to
You can buy a scroll pouch (containing 10 scrolls for easy use) or potion belt (5 potions) at no cost. Each of these takes 1 place only. However, if they are damaged (see below) then all of the scrolls/ potions are damaged. Containers for similar items may be suggested.
If you roll a 1 on a reflex save (or other approapriate save, such as fort for disintegrate) then you roll again- if you failed again ("reflex critical") an item of yours was hit with the effect as well, and must roll a saving throw. (+2 + good save throws for it's level) What's effected is according to the next table: (the table didn't get in, but 1-8 are the quick items. 9-12 is armor/ robes, 13-16 are things in hands, 17-18 are wron stuff like gloves, headbands, amulets, and 19-20 is a reroll, with some percentae of affecting stored items.)


Equipment and magic items:

Shields: a Buckler is +1, light is +2, heavy is +3, tower is +5 and can be used as cover.
Using Shields/ armor you're not proficient with: you gain only half of the AC bonus (rounded down) since you don't know how to use the armor well. Plus, you incur twice the Armor penalty for ALL physical skills (this includes concentration)
Using weapon you're not proficient with (including improvised, and over/ undersized): -4 to hit.
Ammunition: 50 arrows, bolts and bullets are 1 piece of ammunition. (for buying purposes or quick items allocation, see below)
Look at the "quick items" part under combat. Notice the Scroll pouch and Potion belt
Economics: for game balance issues, assume you are buying and selling items at full worth. No discounts, no over charging, not even with Influence or charisma. It's unrealistic I know, but saves a lot of headache. There may be special occurrences where you can use Influence and Appraise to change the outcome, but those are the rare cases, not the usual ones.
small time economics: I don't intend to check on any item that cost 20 gp or less. You can have tany of these within reason, and it doesn't "cost" you anything. Assume you find enough loot to count for that as well as simple traveling expenses, food, lodgings and so on. This "Extra cash" can be used for most mundane purposes, and is not counted. Buy the whole tavern free drinks if you want. Sometime however I will check for food rations and so on, so be prepared to a sensible extent (no need to carry every little item in the books).
General approach to magic items: I tend to give fewer magical items, but more powerful ones. Also, I try to customize some of them for some added effects and so on. I try to make magic items interesting if I can. You'll have enough loot to buy/ order your own magic items.
Identifying items: Identify doesn't require a material component. Also- read magic is now "discern magic" and identifies potions as well as scrolls. (and other small consumables)
Price of magic weapons and armor: the item's "mundane" price, including the masterwork quality is included within the magic item's cost. This means all +1 weapons cost 2000 exactly, all +1 armors cost 1000. This is done to easy up calculations.
Magic weapons and armor: do not have to have a +1 before adding other qualities. You can have a flaming spell storing keen sword. However, at least +1 is needed for the item to overcome damage reduction/ magic.
Note: the above method isn't that realistic, and works more in favor of the players than realism. Again, I think that is preferred.
Remember however, if you find a skilled enough artificer/ magic item creator, you can book an item! It takes time though…


Item Creation rules:

I'm using an altered version of the pathfinder rules for that, with slight variations. Basically, to craft an item you roll spell craft. you have to beat spell craft DC 15+ CL required for creation in order to craft an item, and it cost half the material components. A failed check and they're gone. Basically the higher level you are, the easier it is to craft items of a lower level, but not of your level. No XP, all other perquisites are in place.
For every 250 gp or less of base price of items you spend two hours crafting, up to 8 hours for 751- 1000 gp. some feats in the Eberron book shorten that time period..
I also secretly roll another roll. If the roll is off by 10 or more of the target number- there may be something wrong with the item (see DMG for it- p.272) I roll again- if again the roll fails by 10 or more- the item is cursed. Artificers (and other crafters) may take on special feats to prevent this from happening.
Check out the feat section for feats that cancel this "miss chance" on creating magical items.
Intelligent magic items are created as per the DMG (caster level 15th, adding the specific price to the cost)


Magic and spell casting: the Ploymorph rules may be a tad... weird, but i'd like to give them a try. these houserules don't fix everything, but some things hopefully.

spells costing XP- they instead cost material components equal xp cost X 5
For non spontaneous casters- have a list of spells prepared for each day. Tell me in advance of any peculiar spells. (entangle while we're exploring the ocean)
A high casting stat gives bonus spell slots per day (if applicable) at level 0, as many as the bonus 1st level spells granted.
Spells with range "Personal" now have a range of "Touch". This might increase the usefulness of quite a few spells. (alter and disguise self as examples)
All casters, including divine need a free hand. This usually limits to small shield. However check the shields portion under equipment.
There are no "detect alignment" spells.
"Summon X" spells summon 1 creature of the same spell level, 2 of 1 level less and 4 of 2 levels less.
Identifying items: Identify doesn't require a material component. also- read magic is now "discern magic" and identifies potions as well as scrolls. (and other small consumables)
Glitter Dust allows a saving throw each turn. Grease can be avoided with Reflex instead of just Balance.
Shivering Touch is not allowed.
Polymorph and alter self spells require a piece of the creature to be altered to as an arcane focus. The piece looses potency 1d6 months after being "harvested" (I roll secretly, but the caster knows a month in advance about this) preservation or gentle repose spells can lengthen this period up to 3 times, but if the item is preserved then it is considered "stored"- taking 1 round action to get to. You can trade for pieces of creatures in various parts of the world. Some of these are more common, some less. (Prepare for some rough trading you organ dealer!) From combat, you can "harvest" a piece only if the creature lost half or more of It's HP. (So just fighting a dragon isn't enough. Beating him enough is required.). Multi headed creatures are not allowed, and have been known to cause schizophrenia.

Iferus
2010-05-01, 04:01 AM
Just some small things:



All the skills enhancing feats are gone. Instead there is just "skill focus" +2 to any one skill.
I'd chance that to


All the skills enhancing feats are gone. Instead there is just "skill focus" +2 to any one skill +1 / 5 levels. Prestige class and feat prequisites change accordingly.



Speaking: 6 words per character in a round.


That's a bit short. If you really want to go this route, make it 6 words as a free action (only once per round), 12 as a swift action, 30 as a move action and 60 as a standard action - something like that. But I think it works against your "the game must flow" principle.

BobVosh
2010-05-01, 05:46 AM
That's a bit short. If you really want to go this route, make it 6 words as a free action (only once per round), 12 as a swift action, 30 as a move action and 60 as a standard action - something like that. But I think it works against your "the game must flow" principle.

60 words in 6 seconds? That is 10 words a second, completely ridiculous. Have you ever timed speaking? 6-10 is probably about right, when you consider the speaker is going to be distracted.

I agree with skill focus needing to be changed, your fix or maybe pathfinders is good. (+3 to one skill, +6 when you have 11 ranks.)
If not, why nerf skill focus? Are you lowering DCs?

Tytalus
2010-05-01, 06:05 AM
There are simply too many of them; it's like your players have to learn a new game system. I can't see a clear common direction, either - it appears to be a rather random collection of stuff with little motivation.

Good house rules provide a reasoning what they are trying to achieve, otherwise a discussion of their merits is pointless and the do appear arbitrary.

Yora
2010-05-01, 06:05 AM
Changling: the shapeshifting is not an illusion, but an actual change. Thus it cannot be disbelieved. However the change affect the body only, not the clothes. For that the changling may need disguises or magical gear.
That's actually RAW. :smallbiggrin:

Kalashtar: you can choose to forgo the psionic points in favor of +2 charisma instead.
This is a huge benefit. Even if you play a psion, I think it would be out of the question not to take the +2 to Cha.
I don't know if Kalashtar are considered to be well balanced, but +2 to one ability is much much more valueable than one pp/level.

There are simply too many of them; it's like your players have to learn a new game system. I can't see a clear common direction, either - it appears to be a rather random collection of stuff with little motivation.

Good house rules provide a reasoning what they are trying to achieve, otherwise a discussion of their merits is pointless and the do appear arbitrary.
I don't think so. Most of the things are stuff I've always done and that seem to be very common with many groups. I've seen few groups that use things directly out of the book, and every game I played had some minor adjustments like these.

2xMachina
2010-05-01, 06:06 AM
So, say, in a Roman forum with lots of people, they all get 6 words in 1 round. So, technically, you can listen to the entire Harry Potter series in 6 seconds, provided each 6 words are spoken by different people.

Really now, it's broken. It can be fixed, but IMO, the problem is with rounds.

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-01, 06:35 AM
6 words? Maybe state that in syllables, rather than words, since if your words are "supercalifragilisticexpialidocious", "antidisestablishmentarianism" and "hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobia", I think you will have difficulty getting even two words in a single round.

Thieves
2010-05-01, 06:51 AM
@up & 2up: What the iPad?

@OP: Death and dying: negative Con with disabled/dying - that's always good I guess On the other hand, losing 2 Con with every resurrection is way too steep. I can't remember the RAWs for resurrection spells, but I guess that 1 level down is perfectly fine - you don't catch up that slow, or you could give someone a little Exp nudge. Maybe 1 Con loss for the crudest spells, but Wish or True Resurrection should bring you back to really good health.

TheMadLinguist
2010-05-01, 06:55 AM
60 words in 6 seconds? That is 10 words a second, completely ridiculous. Have you ever timed speaking? 6-10 is probably about right, when you consider the speaker is going to be distracted.

My rule on speaking is that you can say anything the length of Hamlet's dying words or shorter. For reference:


O, I die, Horatio!
The potent poison quite o'ercrows my spirit.
I cannot live to hear the news from England,
But I do prophesy th' election lights
On Fortinbras. He has my dying voice.
So tell him, with th' occurrents, more and less,
Which have solicited- the rest is silence.

Kol Korran
2010-05-01, 08:10 AM
@ all: thanks for the reply. i'm going on reserve militery service, so most chances i won't be able to answer much until next week.

@ Iferus: you're right about the skill focus, i changed it to your suggestion. thanks. if Weapon focus is upgraded by level, no reason why skill focus shouldn't.

@ Yora: about the changling- i know it's raw, thought i'd clarify things for my players. they never had that race in the game. thought it might be confusing.

as to the +2 Cha to Kalashtar: is it realy that huge? i'm new to psionics but i though an extra pp/ level is kind of big. my players are new to psionics, but i wanted to keep the Kalashtar a viable race, and i thought that a bonus to Cha would help them both be "charming and otherworldly", and might favor the sorcerer class, which is the closest to psionic without being psionic that i could find.

however, i am intrigued- do you have any other ideas? i'm more than willing to hear.

as a side note: some of my monsters from the monster thread will finally come into play. looking forward to this.

Regarding the "6 words in a round": the restriction is not harsh, and the players know it. the number of words is as a simple measure to keep things short. if they say 8 words but they are short we're ok. i'm not intending to actually count words, just want to have a unified measure to what's supposed to be too long. we've actually had this rule in play, it works fine.

Greenish
2010-05-01, 08:34 AM
The con penalty on dying is permament… the level loss isn't, you'll catch up on that.

And I think you could just give barbarians the "influence" skill instead of just one specific use of it: many other classes gain new skills, and I don't see why just barbarian should lose a skill. It'll give them something to do outside combat if they want, and just because you get very angry when you fight doesn't mean you can't bluff or charm people if you want.

gdiddy
2010-05-01, 08:46 AM
I completely endorse the idea of Con damage for resurrection.

Godskook
2010-05-01, 08:47 AM
Also: i'm looking for a good alternative on the existing death and raise dead rules. the level behind sucks too much, but not losing anything would feel like a cop out. i'm thinking of peremnantly losing 2 CON each time you die. thoughts?

Permanent con lose would piss me off more than a level loss. Xp is a river, and I can always swim back up it. Stats in 99% of games is a fact of life, and I don't want you hurting my facts.


XP: I don't give XP for encounters. Instead I give XP for accomplishments. The way I do this is I usually calculate the amount of XP needed to "reasonably" achieve a goal, and that is it. if you're smart and can circumvent most of the challenge- you got more XP for less fighting. if you're dumb and keep butting your head against the wall- the same XP as if you weren't as dumb.

I'm not sure I like this....


"Oh, I forgot...": If I, or you, forgot some bonus- then it doesn't apply. the same goes for minuses- again, the game must flow (you can rationalize it as the magic not working momentarily, or the character not aware to make use of it). I trust you to not "forget" minuses. The rule applies to me as well.

So many problems this will cause.


You throw most of the dice: when the monster tries to hit you, you throw a defensive roll with the DC I tell you. The same when you cast a spell on a monster- a spell roll. This leads to transparency and less headache for me. and strangely enough- to more interesting and tactical battles. The target number for d20s is always 22+ the enemy's modifier (attack roll or saving throw most likely). The chances come up equal to the normal system. I'll tell you what the target number is.

If you're really getting equivalent numbers, this is a fine rule.


Warforged: the basic plating (that gives +2) doesn't incur any Spell failure check (no 5%)

Eh...Warforged were meant to be a melee friendly class that required an additional feat(unarmored body?) for casters to use easily. I'm not sure I like this.


I allow classes from the "complete" series, psionics, and PHB2 (but no beguiler). Also Tome of Battle, on a trial basis. (since I never played with it before)

No beguiler? Its not a 'strong' class.

And insert all the standard pro-ToB stuff here.

Oh, and explicitly encourage Lion Totem Barbarian.

[QUOTE=Kol Korran;8409158]The "favored class" mechanic of races does not apply. All are like humans- 1 class is not taken into consideration.

Multiclassing favors non-casters. Casters are still kings of the sandbox, so I'd just say "no multiclassing penalties, guys, go nuts".


The "turn undead" mechanic is altered. Clerics, paladins and favored souls get "divine energy" attempts which number the same as turn undead attempts. These can be used for divine feats. The turn undead ability is now considered a divine feat. Clerics and paladins get one free divine feat at first level (however they do NOT start with the ability to turn undead. They can take that feat, or another one instead). PRCs that require undead turning can be accessed just by having the "divine energy". However, if the PRC improves actual turning, the character must have the "turn undead" feat".

Not sure I understand the implications.


Wizards do not need to pay for writing spells in their books. It's a silly rule that adds nothing but complication.

No! Its a non-silly rule that acts as one of the very, very few friction points that keeps a wizard from ruling the multi-verse. Do *NOT* do this.


the artificer makes two checks to create a magical item: one to emulate the needed perquisites (use magic device), the other to actually make the item (spellcraft). Artificers do not get +2 CL to emulate properties!

Not very sure of Artificer, but crafting requires a craft check already, unless your skill system changed that....


Dodge grants +1 dodge Bonus to AC period. Not just against one enemy, no need to declare.

Still not great....


Weapon finesse has no requirements.

And there was much rejoicing.


And that's all I have time for at the moment.

Greenish
2010-05-01, 08:54 AM
Oh yeah, like Godskook asked, what's wrong with beguilers? They can't do anything a straight wizard couldn't (except cast Glibness!), and are a lot weaker than the core casters, but they're fun and flavourful.

hamishspence
2010-05-01, 03:10 PM
I've seen people claim that using anything that's not in the SRD is:

"house rules, not RAW, by definition"

Anxe
2010-05-01, 03:28 PM
I have a house rule to get around level loss from raising. Raise Dead and Resurrection still have a level loss or Con loss or whatever. Reincarnate does not. The players just keep casting the reincarnate spell until they get the type of body that they want. I created my own reincarnate random table for this, but the one in the spell description should work fine.

To make True Reincarnate catch up you can have the character able to choose what body they come back in from True Reincarnate.

Myou
2010-05-01, 03:44 PM
I'll be rather blunt here, just want to help.

1. Just drop multiclassing, it was always a horrible idea.

2. Hah, I took that +2 from the artificier too.

3. The chance to accidentally make cursed items without blowing more feats is a dreadful idea. I'd never craft again. It's costly just taking the required feats and spending the gold and xp to make the item in the first place.

4. Ten seconds per turn isn't a good idea, many people can't think clearly under pressure and that's not nearly enough time to make mlutiple attack and damage rolls. If you must have a time limit then at least make it a bit longer.

5. Only being able to say 6 words a round isn't believable. I think you need to do your maths again, because that's just one word a second, it makes no sense. Try 30 words a round.

6. For someone worried about slow combat why are you adding extra die rolls for reflex saves? :smallconfused:

7. Personal spells always being touch: Be warned, this is going to greatly increase the party power level - now the fighter can be the one who gets shapechange and iron body, etc.

8. Polymorph, wow, you're adding a lot of complexity there. And if your players ever meet anything that would be good to turn into then they're going to be able to get rich selling the corpse. I think you'd be better off just giving an allowed list for forms, since your limiting of bodyparts is the same thing in effect.


Anyway, good luck with the game! I hope it goes well!

Critical
2010-05-01, 03:50 PM
You can only add one Synergy bonus to a skill!
Why? :smallconfused:


Economics: for game balance issues, assume you are buying and selling items at full worth. No discounts, no over charging, not even with Influence or charisma. It's unrealistic I know, but saves a lot of headache. There may be special occurrences where you can use Influence and Appraise to change the outcome, but those are the rare cases, not the usual ones.
Do you realize how breakable this is?

spells costing XP- they instead cost material components equal xp cost X 5
That gets even more broken with your economics system.

Polymorph and alter self spells require a piece of the creature to be altered to as an arcane focus. The piece looses potency 1d6 months after being "harvested" (I roll secretly, but the caster knows a month in advance about this) preservation or gentle repose spells can lengthen this period up to 3 times, but if the item is preserved then it is considered "stored"- taking 1 round action to get to. You can trade for pieces of creatures in various parts of the world. Some of these are more common, some less. (Prepare for some rough trading you organ dealer!) From combat, you can "harvest" a piece only if the creature lost half or more of It's HP. (So just fighting a dragon isn't enough. Beating him enough is required.). Multi headed creatures are not allowed, and have been known to cause schizophrenia.
Umm... Okay, seriously, too much limitations. Gishes get beaten with a slapstick for some reason, while still being lower rank than full casters. Why? On Multi-Headed creatures - I say stat out some side-effects on them if you do find them too powerful. Overall, I say keep the spell as it is.

Kol Korran
2010-05-01, 03:55 PM
Permanent con lose would piss me off more than a level loss. Xp is a river, and I can always swim back up it. Stats in 99% of games is a fact of life, and I don't want you hurting my facts.
yeah, i'm getting a similar response from a few forumists. i just hate calculating different XP for different characters, and the level off always seemed to put a character a bit far behind in our games (especially when s/he died 2 or more times). i was hoping to find another way. con damage seemed importent enough, but not overly crippling (-1 hp, -1 to fort, -1 to conc). oh well, i'd try to think up a new idea.

regarding the "oh i forgot" rule:

So many problems this will cause.
it causes a lot of problems at the start. but it realy expedite games, and it makes people more focused on the game. and it really keeps the game flowing. i used this rule before when i DMed, and always with new groups it caused trouble, but quickly enough this proved to focus people. after about 4 sessions everything starts to run smoothly. at least from my experience.


Eh...Warforged were meant to be a melee friendly class that required an additional feat(unarmored body?) for casters to use easily. I'm not sure I like this.
i find no reason no penalise warforged for spell casting, especially when getting mage armor or braces of armor usually provides better protection than their normal armor does. the heavier ones still interfere with spell casting.


I allow classes from the "complete" series, psionics, and PHB2 (but no beguiler). Also Tome of Battle, on a trial basis. (since I never played with it before)

No beguiler? Its not a 'strong' class.

And insert all the standard pro-ToB stuff here.

Oh, and explicitly encourage Lion Totem Barbarian.

we just don't have the material of beguiler (we got some exceprts on the other classes), and we have no experience with it. ToB i'm anxious to try out. hopefully one of my players will choose a character from the book.

regarding the "divine energy" and divine feats:

Not sure I understand the implications.
basically, it means that clerics and paladins can get a divine feat instead of turn undead, and that favoured souls can also qualify for divine feats, and might even turn undead, making the mechanics between favoured soul and cleric a bit more similar. haven't tried it power wise, but it mainly enhances the favoured soul.




No! Its a non-silly rule that acts as one of the very, very few friction points that keeps a wizard from ruling the multi-verse. Do *NOT* do this.
wizards allready rule the multiverse. the rule is simply a gp expenditure for the wizard (and a fairly annoying one). i really don't find it adding ANYTHING to either fun, or game balance.



regarding crafting magical items:
Not very sure of Artificer, but crafting requires a craft check already, unless your skill system changed that.... in pathfinder you need a craft check to craft magical items, not in regular D&D. i imported their system, while removing the XP costs. most of the artificer changes are due to that.


And there was much rejoicing.
hey, i said it didn't fix everything, just some things.


And that's all I have time for at the moment.
thanks for the read and the input, much appreciated.

Critical
2010-05-01, 04:11 PM
i find no reason no penalise warforged for spell casting, especially when getting mage armor or braces of armor usually provides better protection than their normal armor does. the heavier ones still interfere with spell casting.
Aside the fact, that the plating can be magically enchanted?

Greenish
2010-05-01, 04:19 PM
we just don't have the material of beguiler (we got some exceprts on the other classes), and we have no experience with it.If you've got PHBII, you got material to play beguiler. Gameplay-wise, it's basically a specialist sorcerer (more spells known, but limited to a few thematic schools). It doesn't have any unique spells or mechanics, and power-wise it's a solid tier 3, not even close to wizards, clerics or druids.

Pluto
2010-05-01, 04:25 PM
Casting Defensively just got better. (At low levels, the DC drops by 5. At high levels, the wizard has flight or phantom steed or greater invisibility and he doesn't care.)

The Fighter became an NPC class.

The players rolling defense is a pain with monsters that have varying attack bonuses. Unless you just want to have players roll their defenses once per round, you end up with a changing defense roll opposing changing attack DC's. It slows down the game - the opposite of what the other rules seem designed to do.

It's hard to track the actions of 5-6 people and remember which items exactly they have at hand at any moment. I can't imagine tracking 8 items apiece.

The Item availability thing seems like too much work. You're adding calculations and randomness to what could be a quick judgment call. This isn't going to speed anything up.

You're introducing a nightmare of paperwork with the cursed item rolls, the polymorph limitations, the saves for items.

And I have no idea what the thing about Changelings and ID's and Forgery numbers is trying to say or do. But that might just be because I've never used or played in a game with Changelings.

Greenish
2010-05-01, 04:29 PM
The Fighter became an NPC class.It hasn't been more than a dip class for a long time.

Oh, and even if you give monks full BAB, you don't really need to drop their unarmed damage, they still won't be so hot.

Pluto
2010-05-01, 04:32 PM
It hasn't been more than a dip class for a long time.
Still - if even the Paladin gets real skills, if the Ranger gets any specialization he wants, if the Monk becomes a full BA package of bonus feats (and actual class abilities) - the reasons for ever taking Fighter levels drop from 'few' to 'none.'

Greenish
2010-05-01, 04:37 PM
Still - if even the Paladin gets real skills, if the Ranger gets any specialization he wants, if the Monk becomes a full BA package of bonus feats (and actual class abilities) - the reasons for ever taking Fighter levels drop from 'few' to 'none.'No, they remain the same: feats and dungeon crasher. Anyway, I don't see what's the problem with paladins getting more skill points (though to be fair, most other classes could do with those too). Monks will still be worse than fighters.

Oh, and be reminded that he will be using ToB.

Pluto
2010-05-01, 05:06 PM
No, they remain the same: feats and dungeon crasher. Anyway, I don't see what's the problem with paladins getting more skill points (though to be fair, most other classes could do with those too).

There's no problem with Paladins getting more skills.
But if they're being tossed around, the fighter could use 2-4 more per level as well, if only to give the Fighter a bit more time in the spotlight than, say, the Aristocrat.

Kol Korran
2010-05-06, 09:12 AM
Ok, i was on Reserve practice, just got back for the weekends (ours start at thursday here in Israel). found some time to review stuff, so here goes. just scroll down to your name to look for my remarks:

Myou


1. Just drop multiclassing, it was always a horrible idea.

Ok, done that.


3. The chance to accidentally make cursed items without blowing more feats is a dreadful idea. I'd never craft again. It's costly just taking the required feats and spending the gold and xp to make the item in the first place.

the XP use is gone under my rules, you only sacrifice time and money (hald the items). true- the craft check limits the use a bit, but a mid 5th level character could basically make loads of low level items costing only a bit more for half the price (the "a bit more" is for the times you fail) i wanted to add a little chance of failure, to avoid mass production, and also introduce the possibility of buying magic items fro mshaider dealers for less money, but increased chance of curses.
do not that the chance for that is really low, and even then most curses are affects are not that bad- small delusions, requirements and so on.
but i'll think about your suggestion some more.


4. Ten seconds per turn isn't a good idea, many people can't think clearly under pressure and that's not nearly enough time to make mlutiple attack and damage rolls. If you must have a time limit then at least make it a bit longer.

i think i addressed this before... but anyway. i used this rule in a previous gaming group., it sucked for about a meeting and a half, but since then it rocked. people got focused on the game, and actually listened while others played. the ten seconds are for you to DECIDE what you're gonna do, the resolution of that takes it's normal time. it's done to avoid pestering players asking a huge number of questions and thinking things over for a few minutes before deciding. this is a battle. you don't have time to overthink. you must act on thee spot. pay attention and think quickly.
it takes some getting used to, but once you do, it's a wonderfull rule. (note, the 10 seconds are not a hard rule, for some players it may be 20 or so. just as long as they are not stalling).


6. For someone worried about slow combat why are you adding extra die rolls for reflex saves
The extra die rolls for will saves are only if you roll a 1, which shouldn't happen to often. it's for items to have some chance, (though a very minute one) to get affected. but i'll think of this one some more as well.


8. Polymorph, wow, you're adding a lot of complexity there. And if your players ever meet anything that would be good to turn into then they're going to be able to get rich selling the corpse. I think you'd be better off just giving an allowed list for forms, since your limiting of bodyparts is the same thing in effect.

Yeah, i'm unsure of this one myself... i've decided that a corpse can yield 2d4 "polymorph portions" before it loses some of it's essence (so not getting rich that easely), and it is mostly done for flavour, and to limit the headaches of new forms of polymorph. i hope it works.

thanks for readin Myou!

Critical: you wrote two responses, before and after my previous post. i'll answer them both:



Economics: for game balance issues, assume you are buying and selling items at full worth. No discounts, no over charging, not even with Influence or charisma. It's unrealistic I know, but saves a lot of headache. There may be special occurrences where you can use Influence and Appraise to change the outcome, but those are the rare cases, not the usual ones.

Do you realize how breakable this is?
no, i don't. how is it breakable? my players really aren't ones to break it, we still use common sense when needed, but i'm curious- how is it breakable?


Aside the fact, that the plating can be magically enchanted?
in our games, a magician's robes could easely be enchanted with most of the qualities magical armor can be enchanted with, (not fortification i think) so it's pretty much the same.

Greenish:

If you've got PHBII, you got material to play beguiler. Gameplay-wise, it's basically a specialist sorcerer (more spells known, but limited to a few thematic schools). It doesn't have any unique spells or mechanics, and power-wise it's a solid tier 3, not even close to wizards, clerics or druids.
thanks for the summary, but we don't have the PHB2. if someone wants to play the beguiler, i'll allow it on a trial basis, as long as s/he brings the required info.


Oh, and even if you give monks full BAB, you don't really need to drop their unarmed damage, they still won't be so hot. i never suggested doing that!

Pluto:

The Fighter became an NPC class.
please explain. he's still the only one to get weapon specialization, and he still get many feats. sure, that doesn't fix the fighter, just the feats. i though he remained pretty much the same. iread about the followinf argument, and i still think that a decnt fighter build could be fun, and not overlapped or outdone necesserily by the monk or paladin.


The players rolling defense is a pain with monsters that have varying attack bonuses. Unless you just want to have players roll their defenses once per round, you end up with a changing defense roll opposing changing attack DC's. It slows down the game - the opposite of what the other rules seem designed to do.
this rule i actually played with. every monster has set DCs for it's attacks. and i tell them to the players getting attacked. it's no more complicated then then me rolling and asking for their ACs. it actually speeds up gaming because there are 5 players rolling defenses VS. one DM rolling attacks. it tned to run multiple opponents battles. it's much easier for me to tell the players to roll 6-12 defenses then for me to roll the same number of attacks.


It's hard to track the actions of 5-6 people and remember which items exactly they have at hand at any moment. I can't imagine tracking 8 items apiece. again, as with some of my suggested rules, this has been tried out. each player has a list of 8 items, and the DM has a small table of all the party's "8" items. this helps monitor economy of action, as well as lead to a more logisitc focus.
in previous games this slowed down the game a bit in the first session and a half. but afterwards it ran smoothly.


The Item availability thing seems like too much work. You're adding calculations and randomness to what could be a quick judgment call. This isn't going to speed anything up.
hmmmm... you make a good point. i just wanted some impartial way to tell a player if an item he wants is there or not. ok, i'll take your advice. will change it.

and again folks- thanks for advising!

Myou
2010-05-06, 09:51 AM
Ok, i was on Reserve practice, just got back for the weekends (ours start at thursday here in Israel). found some time to review stuff, so here goes. just scroll down to your name to look for my remarks:

Welcome back!



the XP use is gone under my rules, you only sacrifice time and money (hald the items). true- the craft check limits the use a bit, but a mid 5th level character could basically make loads of low level items costing only a bit more for half the price (the "a bit more" is for the times you fail) i wanted to add a little chance of failure, to avoid mass production, and also introduce the possibility of buying magic items fro mshaider dealers for less money, but increased chance of curses.
do not that the chance for that is really low, and even then most curses are affects are not that bad- small delusions, requirements and so on.
but i'll think about your suggestion some more.

Ahh, interesting idea, it's good. I would suggest that you radically alter how crafting works in order to aloow this. 1, Make crafting an item cost it's full normal price, or just under. 2, Allow items to be crafted without ever spending a feat 3, Give a fairly high chance to mis-craft an item. 4, Allow feats that remove the high miss-crafting danger.


i think i addressed this before... but anyway. i used this rule in a previous gaming group., it sucked for about a meeting and a half, but since then it rocked. people got focused on the game, and actually listened while others played. the ten seconds are for you to DECIDE what you're gonna do, the resolution of that takes it's normal time. it's done to avoid pestering players asking a huge number of questions and thinking things over for a few minutes before deciding. this is a battle. you don't have time to overthink. you must act on thee spot. pay attention and think quickly.
it takes some getting used to, but once you do, it's a wonderfull rule. (note, the 10 seconds are not a hard rule, for some players it may be 20 or so. just as long as they are not stalling).

Well then it seems there's nothing to worry about. :smallsmile:


The extra die rolls for will saves are only if you roll a 1, which shouldn't happen to often. it's for items to have some chance, (though a very minute one) to get affected. but i'll think of this one some more as well.

It is of course, a personal preference. But I doubt players will like flunking thier save only for their favourite trinket to get smashed too. :smallwink:


Yeah, i'm unsure of this one myself... i've decided that a corpse can yield 2d4 "polymorph portions" before it loses some of it's essence (so not getting rich that easely), and it is mostly done for flavour, and to limit the headaches of new forms of polymorph. i hope it works.

I would still strongly suggest that you simply use ab allowed form list, as your method is going to add a lot of book-keeping, and also complicates your game world - anything that makes a powerful polymorph form suddenly has to be an endangered species or else the spell will be broken still, and it only takes one creature overlooked for that to happen. Really I would just suggest that you look over the SRD and pick some allowed forms, and add a line to the polymorph spells simply saying that the spell can turn you into the chosen creatures, and that other forms may be found outside of core at DM discretion.


thanks for readin Myou!

Glad to help! ^^

Greenish
2010-05-06, 10:22 AM
thanks for the summary, but we don't have the PHB2. if someone wants to play the beguiler, i'll allow it on a trial basis, as long as s/he brings the required info.Oh, that makes sense, except on why only beguiler is singled out and the other classes are allowed. Anyhow, Crystal Keep ( http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf ) has just about everything you need to know. It's a great and funny class, if any of your players wants to play magical trickster/caster skillmonkey/stealthy illusionist, point them at the beguiler! (It gets cookies for being a fun full caster and still staying at tier 3.)

i never suggested doing that!
Ah, I must've misunderstood the "Monk: gets full BAB. the unarmed attacks are adjusted accordingly" part. Even then, since you're running ToB, if your players want to play monk, you should point them to the unarmed variant of Swordsage. :smallcool:

[Edit]: And I agree with Pluto on skillpoints, most of the classes should get more (and could get more without affecting the game balance).

Mauther
2010-05-06, 12:43 PM
Also: i'm looking for a good alternative on the existing death and raise dead rules. the level behind sucks too much, but not losing anything would feel like a cop out. i'm thinking of peremnantly losing 2 CON each time you die. thoughts?

If your looking to minimize the impact but still have some impact, I've used flaws for that purpose in the past. There are additional physical flaws available online, mostly fan made, of varying quality.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-06, 01:17 PM
When you remove Multiclassing Penalties, you remove one of the big reasons for careful selection of a character's race.

You also remove one of the advantages of playing a Human or Half-Elf. Perhaps a +1 to any stat would make up for it?

Tinydwarfman
2010-05-06, 01:34 PM
When you remove Multiclassing Penalties, you remove one of the big reasons for careful selection of a character's race.

You also remove one of the advantages of playing a Human or Half-Elf. Perhaps a +1 to any stat would make up for it?

Half-elves always sucked, and humans are still awesome. Almost every single class still loves humans, because of the bonus feat. And did anyone really play a half-elf before except for flavor reasons? I mean, at least the half-orc gets a bonus to something.

Obi-Juan
2010-05-06, 01:47 PM
Half-elves always sucked, and humans are still awesome. Almost every single class still loves humans, because of the bonus feat. And did anyone really play a half-elf before except for flavor reasons? I mean, at least the half-orc gets a bonus to something.

Diplomancer, Champ of Corellon, and a very amusing Dragon Disciple with 8 perosnalities

Myou
2010-05-06, 03:11 PM
When you remove Multiclassing Penalties, you remove one of the big reasons for careful selection of a character's race.

You also remove one of the advantages of playing a Human or Half-Elf. Perhaps a +1 to any stat would make up for it?

That's totally wrong. Multiclassing is suboptimal to begin with. The best builds use PrCs that don't incur a penalty, and in case you haven't noticed, humans are still one of the best races, no matter your build. :smalltongue:

And as said, half-elf is terrible anyway.

Favoured classes are entirely fluff - the impact on balance is non-existant.

Eldariel
2010-05-06, 03:15 PM
Half-Elf deserves either +1 to skills or the feat. Probably the feat; that's the only thing with enough bang to make up for not getting attribute bonus.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-05-06, 03:18 PM
"Oh, I forgot...": If I, or you, forgot some bonus- then it doesn't apply. the same goes for minuses- again, the game must flow (you can rationalize it as the magic not working momentarily, or the character not aware to make use of it). I trust you to not "forget" minuses. The rule applies to me as well. This just screams "abuse me", and if your players don't ... well, you're a lucky DM!


Most opposed rolls (for skills mostly): I assume the opponent rolled 10, elite opponents 12, and really special opponents 14. Disagree completely. Elite opponents and special opponents already have their eliteness factored by having, oh, I don't know, maybe BETTER SKILL RANKS!? No need to give them bonuses on the die as well.

Greenish
2010-05-06, 03:19 PM
Half-Elf deserves either +1 to skills or the feat. Probably the feat; that's the only thing with enough bang to make up for not getting attribute bonus.Half-humans are good for some purposes. Not optimal, but a handful of free weapon proficiencies, even with just martial weapons, is nice.

Eldariel
2010-05-06, 03:21 PM
Half-humans are good for some purposes. Not optimal, but a handful of free weapon proficiencies, even with just martial weapons, is nice.

They're alright, but there's no reason to leave them hanging like they are right now. Half-Elves (of either upbringing) are supposed to be awesome and yet, as they stand in modern D&D, they're just really, really mediocre Humans (and Elves, though Elves themselves are a tad mediocre with the superbuffed Con-focus).

Greenish
2010-05-06, 03:31 PM
They're alright, but there's no reason to leave them hanging like they are right now. Half-Elves (of either upbringing) are supposed to be awesome and yet, as they stand in modern D&D, they're just really, really mediocre Humans (and Elves, though Elves themselves are a tad mediocre with the superbuffed Con-focus).It would be nice to have a LA +0 race with bonus to Cha without Con penalty*. Half-elves a candidate, ya think?


*Yeah, Lesser Aasimar, woo.

Kol Korran
2010-05-08, 10:12 AM
This just screams "abuse me", and if your players don't ... well, you're a lucky DM!
there is but one player that i worry about. other than him, i am a lucky DM. and even he is good... most times.



Disagree completely. Elite opponents and special opponents already have their eliteness factored by having, oh, I don't know, maybe BETTER SKILL RANKS!? No need to give them bonuses on the die as well.

you're right. this was changed to:
"Most opposed rolls (for skills mostly): I assume the opponent rolled 10. sometimes however I do roll. If we'll be using the "Action Points" rules of Eberron, some elite opponents might use these to upgrade their roles. (as explained in the book)"

thanks for the input.

krossbow
2010-05-08, 10:42 AM
i have to admit, the play copping the penalty because the DM forgot something is just... yeah.