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View Full Version : [3.5] What class to take now? (Epic Gestalt)



Myou
2010-05-01, 02:20 PM
I'm planning my character's future progression in a high power gestalt game that will eventually turn epic, and I'm not sure what class to take on one side of the build after I hit 20.

Pertinent information;
- At epic levels BaB is +1 per 2 levels for all classes, and iterative attacks cap at 4, which means a good BaB progression is not important. There is no Epic Spellcasting, at least not how WotC wrote it.
- I'm taking a 20-level homebrew class first on one side of my build, and the other side of the build is wizard all the way through epic.
- The one PrC at a time rule is being followed, and I'm taking multiple wizard PrCs, so I can't take a PrC on the other side of the build at any point.
- Save progression and hit dice don't matter as the custom class makes my future save progression and hit dice good anyway.
- I should have 36 dex and 50 con and int by level 20, the other stats should all be around 20.
- My other class is wizard and PrCs, and is my first priority, so I won't change that part of my build.

So, what can you guys suggest as a good base class for me to start taking from level 21 onwards?
Iíd quite enjoy it if the class allowed me to do some (possibly unarmed) fighting, but thatís not important, and any concept would be interesting to me. I really have no idea what to do with those levels when I get them. :smallsmile:
I am, of course, also interested in factotum, but I don't have spare feats for Font of Inspiration, so I'm not sure about it.

Edit: Oh, and I can't really spare feats for this, so I need something that will work well with at absolute most maybe 1 or 2 feats devoted to it.

pffh
2010-05-01, 02:25 PM
You could take warblade or unarmed swordsage and then go into jade phoenix mage or just continue with the martial class and pick up some sweet maneuvers and stances.

Volthawk
2010-05-01, 02:27 PM
Dragonfire Adept or an Incarnum class will take advantage of that CON score.

Myou
2010-05-01, 02:32 PM
Dragonfire Adept or an Incarnum class will take advantage of that CON score.

What is incarnum? I've never read up on it. ^^;


You could take warblade or unarmed swordsage and then go into jade phoenix mage or just continue with the martial class and pick up some sweet maneuvers and stances.

Well, I did consider that, but then I thought that getting level 1 manouvres at level 21 would be pretty lame - wouldn't the levels be rather useless until I had quite a few of them?

Oh... wait... I could start out as an 11th level initiator, couldn't I?! I forgot that IL stacks with other classes! :O

Weezer
2010-05-01, 02:40 PM
What is incarnum? I've never read up on it. ^^
Basically you make temporary quasi-items (melds) out of your soul that give you various abilities/bonuses whose power depends on how much of your soul (essentia) that you invest in them. Like most good gestalt partners Incarnum is primarily passive, allowing you to make the most of your full casting.



Well, I did consider that, but then I thought that getting level 1 manouvres at level 21 would be pretty lame - wouldn't the levels be rather useless until I had quite a few of them?

Oh... wait... I could start out as an 11th level initiator, couldn't I?! I forgot that IL stacks with other classes! :O

Yes, you would start out with that IL, that is what makes ToB so good for dips/starting with them late game.

Myou
2010-05-01, 02:47 PM
I just took a look at the Dragonfire Adept. I love the breath weapon, just generally, but the one the DFA gets is based on class level - so it'll be horribly weak at epic levels. D:



Basically you make temporary quasi-items (melds) out of your soul that give you various abilities/bonuses whose power depends on how much of your soul (essentia) that you invest in them. Like most good gestalt partners Incarnum is primarily passive, allowing you to make the most of your full casting.


Yes, you would start out with that IL, that is what makes ToB so good for dips/starting with them late game.

Yeah, Unarmed Swordsage is looking attractive now. xD

Incarnum does look interesting. I dug out a copy of the book, but it also looks dauntingly complicated. :smalleek:

Weezer
2010-05-01, 04:40 PM
Incarnum does look interesting. I dug out a copy of the book, but it also looks dauntingly complicated. :smalleek:

I'll admit it does have a pretty steep learning curve, resulting mostly from a combination of it being entirely different from any other 3.5 sub-system, the variability of effects, and that it requires pretty in depth knowledge of every soulmeld an incarnist can learn. But it is a really fun system once you get a hold of it.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-05-01, 05:50 PM
You could go Monk or Unarmed Swordsage with Carmendine Monk to get your Int bonus to AC, and use Greater Luminous Armor and Persistent Shield for armor and shield bonuses. Be sure to pick up Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, and Mind Over Body from Diamond Mind, since your Concentration check should be considerably higher than any of your saves. You should probably also try to get Iron Heart Surge, whether via a prestige class, Warblade, or even Martial Study.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-01, 06:02 PM
Agreed - this is, as much as it pains me to say it, possible a one-in-a-million situation where Monk might be a better choice than Unarmed Swordsage, at least for a one-level dip. It depends on your DM and if they're nice enough to houserule in a Carmedine Monk/Kung Fu Genius equivalent for Unarmed Swordsage...if the answer is yes, US all the way. If not, you have to pick between your Int-to-AC and a bunch of 5th and lower level maneuvers.

Myou
2010-05-02, 04:34 AM
I'll admit it does have a pretty steep learning curve, resulting mostly from a combination of it being entirely different from any other 3.5 sub-system, the variability of effects, and that it requires pretty in depth knowledge of every soulmeld an incarnist can learn. But it is a really fun system once you get a hold of it.

Well, I've read Magic of Incarnum. A lot of the powers seem pretty weak, but I suppose it's balanced out by the versatility of knowing them all, and the endurance thanks to them lasting all day.

It looks really interesting for a starting character, but most of the effects seem to be very easily duplicated by my actual spells, so since I'm already going to be level 20 when I start taking levels in a new class, I don't think I'll really be able to get good use out of it. It's a shame they don't have a stacking mechanic like the ToB uses.


You could go Monk or Unarmed Swordsage with Carmendine Monk to get your Int bonus to AC, and use Greater Luminous Armor and Persistent Shield for armor and shield bonuses. Be sure to pick up Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, and Mind Over Body from Diamond Mind, since your Concentration check should be considerably higher than any of your saves. You should probably also try to get Iron Heart Surge, whether via a prestige class, Warblade, or even Martial Study.


Agreed - this is, as much as it pains me to say it, possible a one-in-a-million situation where Monk might be a better choice than Unarmed Swordsage, at least for a one-level dip. It depends on your DM and if they're nice enough to houserule in a Carmedine Monk/Kung Fu Genius equivalent for Unarmed Swordsage...if the answer is yes, US all the way. If not, you have to pick between your Int-to-AC and a bunch of 5th and lower level maneuvers.

I think there's a Carmendine Sage feat available, so swordsage would be the better option.

Sooooo... I'm sort of torn between factotum (spending IP to get into to attack and damage, or cast extra spells, yay! I just wish I could get more than the basic number of inspiration points without wasting feats. Do you think I could reasonably trade Arcane Dilettante for a few more IP?) and unarmed swordsage. But swordsage rather needs weapon finesse, that Carmendine feat and Adaptive Style to refresh manouvres... although I guess when I run out I COULD just switch to casting.... But I'd rather not have to do that.

But can anyone suggest any other classes I could try? After all I have ages to go before I actually hit level 21, and I don't want to miss anything. :smallbiggrin:

pffh
2010-05-02, 05:27 AM
Well, I've read Magic of Incarnum. A lot of the powers seem pretty weak, but I suppose it's balanced out by the versatility of knowing them all, and the endurance thanks to them lasting all day.

It looks really interesting for a starting character, but most of the effects seem to be very easily duplicated by my actual spells, so since I'm already going to be level 20 when I start taking levels in a new class, I don't think I'll really be able to get good use out of it. It's a shame they don't have a stacking mechanic like the ToB uses.





I think there's a Carmendine Sage feat available, so swordsage would be the better option.

Sooooo... I'm sort of torn between factotum (spending IP to get into to attack and damage, or cast extra spells, yay! I just wish I could get more than the basic number of inspiration points without wasting feats. Do you think I could reasonably trade Arcane Dilettante for a few more IP?) and unarmed swordsage. But swordsage rather needs weapon finesse, that Carmendine feat and Adaptive Style to refresh manouvres... although I guess when I run out I COULD just switch to casting.... But I'd rather not have to do that.

But can anyone suggest any other classes I could try? After all I have ages to go before I actually hit level 21, and I don't want to miss anything. :smallbiggrin:

Jade phoenix mage use those spells to hit stuff harder.

Critical
2010-05-02, 07:18 AM
Be a Dragonborn Dwarf and a Sorcerer, take the 9th level substitution ability and get something spammable. Perhaps, go Swiftblade and Arcane Duelist dip for 2 levels. Get Monk dip on the other side, with the Aestetic Mage feat, so we have Cha to AC. Perhaps, dip Marshal for some nifty buffs. Get Slippers of Battledancing, now you're an awesome gish! :smallbiggrin:

Myou
2010-05-02, 08:39 AM
Be a Dragonborn Dwarf and a Sorcerer, take the 9th level substitution ability and get something spammable. Perhaps, go Swiftblade and Arcane Duelist dip for 2 levels. Get Monk dip on the other side, with the Aestetic Mage feat, so we have Cha to AC. Perhaps, dip Marshal for some nifty buffs. Get Slippers of Battledancing, now you're an awesome gish! :smallbiggrin:

Errr... maybe you missed the details in my first post?
I'm not a dragonborn dwarf or a sorcerer, I can't take any PrCs and the other side of my build is already taken. And my charisma is my worst stat. xD


Jade phoenix mage use those spells to hit stuff harder.

Well, I might decide to take a PrC like that, but there's no way I'm going to blow caster levels on this, I want to be a wizard who is also a decent combatant, not a combatant who is also a wizard. XD

Critical
2010-05-02, 08:46 AM
Errr... maybe you missed the details in my first post?
I'm not a dragonborn dwarf or a sorcerer, I can't take any PrCs and the other side of my build is already taken. And my charisma is my worst stat. xD



Well, I might decide to take a PrC like that, but there's no way I'm going to blow caster levels on this, I want to be a wizard who is also a decent combatant, not a combatant who is also a wizard. XD
Hmm, I just thought that you're fleshing out a character now, not that you're adding a gestalt right now.
In that case... Factotum 3/Warblade 7/Eternal Blade 10? Perhaps, straight Factotum? Also, what race are you?

Myou
2010-05-02, 09:03 AM
Hmm, I just thought that you're fleshing out a character now, not that you're adding a gestalt right now.
In that case... Factotum 3/Warblade 7/Eternal Blade 10? Perhaps, straight Factotum? Also, what race are you?

Ahhh, heh heh, no, I'm already playing him, we're about to hit level 7. I'm a naga (setting specific race). I'm just planning ahead. :smallsmile:

I'm looknig at Eternal Blade. :3

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-02, 09:14 AM
How about bard 1/sublime chord 1/shadowcraft mage 5/incantatrix 10/etc?

Getting more 9ths is never a bad thing*.

That, or factotum 11 (ignoring SR at epic is NEVER a bad thing)/class-that-gives-you-tons-of-useless-bonus-feats, using the Dark Chaos feat shuffle to turn those useless feats into FoIs? If you're an elf of a race that grants bonus feats you can recycle them into FoIs as well. Also, if your classes grant you any feats you're not using, recycle those too.

It's epic; using the feat shuffle is hardly broken by that point.









*for you.

Myou
2010-05-02, 10:06 AM
How about bard 1/sublime chord 1/shadowcraft mage 5/incantatrix 10/etc?

Getting more 9ths is never a bad thing*.

That, or factotum 11 (ignoring SR at epic is NEVER a bad thing)/class-that-gives-you-tons-of-useless-bonus-feats, using the Dark Chaos feat shuffle to turn those useless feats into FoIs? If you're an elf of a race that grants bonus feats you can recycle them into FoIs as well. Also, if your classes grant you any feats you're not using, recycle those too.

It's epic; using the feat shuffle is hardly broken by that point.

*for you.

Hah hah, wow. Like I say, I don't want to take PrCs on this side of the gestalt, because then the other side would have to be straight wizard.

Also, slight problem, Shadowcraft Mage, feat shufflew and Incantatrix are banned.

Still, I don't really want to start a second caster class anyway - it would be ages before it was useful and I have more than enough casting already. :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, I forgot that the factotum can ignore SR too! :o
That would be handy.

Gah, I'm really conflicted. Factotum offers quite a few redundant abilities, but also a few great ones, while swordsage offers manouvres and stances, but rather requires me to take a few feats for it to be any good. But then factotum would be pretty limited without font of inpriration too.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-02, 10:20 AM
You could dip one level in Swashbuckler to get free Weapon Finesse.Three levels would get you Int-to-Damage vs. anything that's not sneak-attack-immune, but only in melee, and that's a pretty common immunity in Epic.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-02, 10:51 AM
Hah hah, wow. Like I say, I don't want to take PrCs on this side of the gestalt, because then the other side would have to be straight wizard.

Also, slight problem, Shadowcraft Mage, feat shufflew and Incantatrix are banned.

Still, I don't really want to start a second caster class anyway - it would be ages before it was useful and I have more than enough casting already. :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, I forgot that the factotum can ignore SR too! :o
That would be handy.

Gah, I'm really conflicted. Factotum offers quite a few redundant abilities, but also a few great ones, while swordsage offers manouvres and stances, but rather requires me to take a few feats for it to be any good. But then factotum would be pretty limited without font of inpriration too.You really won't need wizard past level 20, so long as you have a handful of caster level boosters to get you up to level 25 (unless you have houserules to push you farther, spells-wise); I would suggest switching from wizard to factotum, then PrC using bard/sublime chord/full-caster PrC, then switch to ur-priest, then beholder mage (assuming you wanna go that route, anyway).

Multiple 9's are NICE, and you can boost your caster level for all of them via items. Once you hit factotum 11 you won't have to worry about CL-checks for SR (not even infinite SR, a la golems), so caster level won't be QUITE as much of an issue, and assay resistance can fix you up until you get that far.

Just a thought.

[edit] Also, orb of X and wall spells.

Myou
2010-05-02, 11:26 AM
You really won't need wizard past level 20, so long as you have a handful of caster level boosters to get you up to level 25 (unless you have houserules to push you farther, spells-wise); I would suggest switching from wizard to factotum, then PrC using bard/sublime chord/full-caster PrC, then switch to ur-priest, then beholder mage (assuming you wanna go that route, anyway).

Multiple 9's are NICE, and you can boost your caster level for all of them via items. Once you hit factotum 11 you won't have to worry about CL-checks for SR (not even infinite SR, a la golems), so caster level won't be QUITE as much of an issue, and assay resistance can fix you up until you get that far.

Just a thought.

[edit] Also, orb of X and wall spells.

Actually, we do have houserules on that topic, spells don't cap out at 9. So wizard is pretty vital. xD

Wow, beholder mage? Why on earth would I want to be a blind beholder? XD
I know it's powerful (and, like Ur Priest, banned), but I like my character as he is, I don't think I want him tyo turn into a monsterous freak. :smallbiggrin:

Also, just to be clear, more spellcasting classes aren't what I'm after here, I know that optimally I should be getting stuff like that, but my group don't optimize that hard, and thematically it wouldn't fit my character.

I'm sorry to waste your time, Lycanthromancer. ^^;


You could dip one level in Swashbuckler to get free Weapon Finesse.Three levels would get you Int-to-Damage vs. anything that's not sneak-attack-immune, but only in melee, and that's a pretty common immunity in Epic.

Ohhh, that might be worth doing, yeah. :o
Thanks!

Myou
2010-05-02, 04:02 PM
Ok, unless you guys suggest any other ideas, I think I'll go for swordsage. Thanks everyone. :smallsmile: