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Lord Loss
2010-05-02, 02:09 PM
Is there any way for an EL 20 character to defeat at lvl 36-ish Paladin?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-05-02, 02:11 PM
Hundreds.

Step 1: Be a spellcaster.
Step 2: Use any number of well-known no-save spell combos, or just one or two really powerful spells.
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit.

Most level 20 full-casters would wreck a level 36 Paladin. How's he going to get out of a forcecage, for example?

Tavar
2010-05-02, 02:11 PM
Any particular character? And does the Paladin have anything specific?

Mushroom Ninja
2010-05-02, 02:12 PM
Is there any way for an EL 20 character to defeat at lvl 36-ish Paladin?

Yes. I think a 20th level wizard would have a pretty good chance if the Paladin doesn't use his/her wealth very intelligently.

Mando Knight
2010-05-02, 02:14 PM
Round 1: Fly.
Round 2: ???
Round 3: Profit!

Lord Loss
2010-05-02, 02:14 PM
yes. He an army at his disposal, including a lvl 18 druid. He also picked up some underpowered PrC giving him electricity resistance and a template (celestial, or something along those lines.

I can use any class.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-05-02, 02:16 PM
How has the paladin used his wealth? Can he fly? Can he UMD? What is his access to teleportation? Freedom of movement?

Tavar
2010-05-02, 02:17 PM
Use a form of the Mailman or Cindy build. Those can get around most of the common defences, leaving him to deal with having over 300 damage dealt, per spell. First, you probably want to take out the druid or other high level casters.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-05-02, 02:17 PM
Also, what level of Cheese? None, a mild cheddar, a stronger brie, or all-out gouda?

Lord Loss
2010-05-02, 02:19 PM
He has a multitude of Ioun stones, can fly thanks to a hippogriff he trained (or the druid trained?) and can UMD.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-05-02, 02:21 PM
and can UMD.

That's going to be your biggest problem, I think, since with a lvl. 36 WBL, he can afford to be a very powerful wizard.

Tavar
2010-05-02, 02:22 PM
Use this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer).

Even better, make yourself Ethreal, and then target him with Transdimensional(Com Arc) spells.

Flickerdart
2010-05-02, 02:22 PM
Construct The Cube. Win by attrition.

Optimystik
2010-05-02, 02:23 PM
As others have said, you'll need some divinations to figure out what he spent 36 levels worth of dough on.

tyckspoon
2010-05-02, 02:28 PM
On strength of class features, yes- any caster should be able to pull it off. Epic Paladin provides almost nothing of note, and the Paladin's list of Epic Bonus Feats is quite lame. The Special Mount may actually be the hardest part to deal with, as a level 36 paladin could easily be partnered with an Adult-Old dragon (or even older- this gets very, very silly if you use the DMG's suggested guidelines for alternate paladin mounts. I'm just guessing the age range based on Draconomicon's Dragon Steed feat, which caps its listed chart at Young Gold for a 20th level character.)

If the Paladin has intelligent use of his wealth, then you have a problem. Epic wealth allows the purchase of so many defenses and contingency items that you will need some fairly extreme cheese to compete (just for starters, you can probably assume the Paladin is immune to Mind-Affecting, negative energy, death attacks, ability damage, an energy type or two, and has 40+ points of Touch AC, all before you start approaching his ridiculously high saves. Oh, and he probably permanently sees invisible and at least has a way of activating True Seeing.)

Dr Bwaa
2010-05-02, 02:47 PM
No.

he's a Paladin who has somehow survived to level 36. This means he holds a position of power, which means he has leadership, which he has used to obtain the services of a lvl 34 Wizard cohort (he has done this because his high WIS lets him know it's the best option available to him). His cohort simply handles the puny challenger long before he becomes a threat.

Alternate story: he a Paladin who has somehow survived to level 36. This means that he has the direct protection of his deity (no other explanation). Said deity knows weeks or months in advance about the Paladin's challenger, and if it's a true threat, can take whatever actions are necessary to quash it, including but not limited to: alerting the paladin weeks in advance of the other character beginning to make plans (causing the Paladin to use his near-infinite wealth to directly counter whatever the lower-level character is attempting), directly interfering in the other person's plans, indirectly interfering with the other person's plans, RFED, etc.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-05-02, 02:48 PM
The biggest problem is probably the 18th level Druid, Special Mount, and army. The Paladin himself can most likely be locked down pretty easily.

Be a Wizard 20. Here's one way to do it.

Obtain a Bag of Holding and a Portable Hole. Hold the Portable Hole over the Bag of Holding.
Quickened, Stilled Dimension Door next to the Paladin, making sure he's not immediately surrounded by powerful minions. Maybe through Sudden Metamagic in order to retain high level spell-slots.
As a free action, drop the Portable Hole in the Bag of Holding.
Everything within 10 feet of you is sucked to the Astral Plane (no save). It's just the two of you there, by the way. Also, the Astral Plane has the Enhanced Magic trait, allowing all your spells to be automatically Quickened for no additional cost.
With your move action, take a 5ft step back.
With your standard action, cast Time Stop.
On round 1, trap the Paladin in a Forcecage. Use the bars in order to retain line of sight.
Use the remaining rounds to buff yourself up.
When the time stop expires, cast greater celerity.
Cast a sudden maximized maddening scream for 5 rounds of interruption-free destruction on a target incapable of making Reflex saves or taking actions. I believe there's a spell that paralyzes on a failed reflex save: try using that, dispelling your Forcecage, and Coup de Gracing the victim with polar ray or some other high damage spell. If it fails, replace forcecage instantly, as it will be quickened.
Take as long as you want. Maybe pause to rest up. After all, Forcecage will be lasting 20 hours...

Jack_Simth
2010-05-02, 02:52 PM
Let's see... how cheesy do you want?

If you're a Dragonblooded Sorcerer, Greater Arcane Fusion takes a standard action, and lets you cast two spells. GAF uses up it's slot, it doesn't cost you any extra.

If you've got a way to eliminate the extra casting time of metamagic for a Sorcerer (there's several ways... but for this, you want the feat for it that requires a lot of spellcraft).

Sanctum Spell makes a spell count as a level lower (if cast outside your Sanctum).

So you do Greater Arcane Fusion(Sanctum Spell(Greater Arcane Fusion), any damage spell). The Interior Greater Arcane Fusion is, of course, the exact same combo as the outer one. All paid for by the intial casting of Greater Arcane Fusion. So you blast with Fireballs (Possibly Energy Substuted through the Archmage ability) until everything within Long range is dead, then Teleport away.


Quickened, Stilled Dimension Door next to the Paladin, making sure he's not immediately surrounded by powerful minions. Maybe through Sudden Metamagic in order to retain high level spell-slots.Two things:
1) You don't need to Still Dimension Door, as it has no Somatic Components (just Verbal).
2) Dimension Door ends your turn - you can't take any actions on your turn after it's happened. Replace with Teleport.

Flickerdart
2010-05-02, 02:52 PM
Dim Door won't work, you can't take any actions after using it. It'll have to be Teleport.

Godskook
2010-05-02, 02:54 PM
L20 character versus a L36 Paladin?

Comes down to 1 thing, and that's if the Paladin is built 'well' or 'poorly'. A well-built Paladin can curb-stomp anything pre-epic. For one simple reason that I'm sure everyone else hasn't realized: Epic spellcasting(Yes, Paladins get it). Insult-to-injury, a L36 Paladin probably has a high enough UMD score and WBL to give himself an encounter's worth of L20 wizard spellcasting, but he doesn't even need that much. He just needs 3 or 4 scrolls in order to get his spell research going, and then his epic spells will do the rest(Gate and Genesis, any others?).

And you don't stand a chance in hell if your opponent is built with a certain Champion of Valor feat, with or without epic spellcasting on the table.

absolmorph
2010-05-02, 02:57 PM
Construct The Cube. Win by attrition.
This is the best idea yet.

Jack_Simth
2010-05-02, 02:58 PM
L20 character versus a L36 Paladin?

Comes down to 1 thing, and that's if the Paladin is built 'well' or 'poorly'. A well-built Paladin can curb-stomp anything pre-epic. For one simple reason that I'm sure everyone else hasn't realized: Epic spellcasting(Yes, Paladins get it). Insult-to-injury, a L36 Paladin probably has a high enough UMD score and WBL to give himself an encounter's worth of L20 wizard spellcasting, but he doesn't even need that much. He just needs 3 or 4 scrolls in order to get his spell research going, and then his epic spells will do the rest(Gate and Genesis, any others?).

And you don't stand a chance in hell if your opponent is built with a certain Champion of Valor feat, with or without epic spellcasting on the table.
You know, I hadn't considered that - a Paladin-10/Divine Crusader (Complete Divine)-10 has access to 9th level spells, and so could qualify for Epic Spellcasting at 21st. Hmm. That could make this a PROBLEM.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-05-02, 03:00 PM
You know, I hadn't considered that - a Paladin-10/Divine Crusader (Complete Divine)-10 has access to 9th level spells, and so could qualify for Epic Spellcasting at 21st. Hmm. That could make this a PROBLEM.

It might be, but only one PrC was mentioned: "He also picked up some underpowered PrC giving him electricity resistance and a template (celestial, or something along those lines."

Not sure we have to worry.

Jack_Simth
2010-05-02, 03:01 PM
It might be, but only one PrC was mentioned: "He also picked up some underpowered PrC giving him electricity resistance and a template (celestial, or something along those lines."

Not sure we have to worry.

Electricity Resistance 5 at Divine Crusader-3, resistance to electricity 10 at Divine Crusader-9. "Perfect Self" at Divine Crusader 10 makes you a native outsider.

Are you sure?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-05-02, 03:04 PM
Electricity Resistance 5 at Divine Crusader-3, resistance to electricity 10 at Divine Crusader-9. "Perfect Self" at Divine Crusader 10 makes you a native outsider.

Are you sure?

Hm. You could be right.

This could be worse than anticipated.

Godskook
2010-05-02, 03:04 PM
You know, I hadn't considered that - a Paladin-10/Divine Crusader (Complete Divine)-10 has access to 9th level spells, and so could qualify for Epic Spellcasting at 21st. Hmm. That could make this a PROBLEM.

A Straight Paladin, using a feat on his own epic-bonus-feat list(Read: Really, guys, you missed this?) qualifies for Epic Spellcasting on his L30 feat, with one epic feat to spare.

Take Epic Spellcasting off the table, and Sword of the Arcane Order still gets us double-digit wizard-compatible spell slots on a Paladin Chassis.

And then there's Divine Crusader, as you mentioned, and Epic Leadership.

absolmorph
2010-05-02, 03:07 PM
People, the solution was already posted.
The Cube is immune to most stuff. And disintegrates anything you hit. And flies.

Godskook
2010-05-02, 03:11 PM
People, the solution was already posted.
The Cube is immune to most stuff. And disintegrates anything you hit. And flies.

The cube is not immune to everything that's pre-epic, and an epic level, epic-casting, caster with feats to spare on Spell Stowaway(Time stop) isn't going to be bothered by something that's both (A)Pre-epic and (B)Vulnerable to something.

Oslecamo
2010-05-02, 03:15 PM
Hm. You could be right.

This could be worse than anticipated.

Codzilla:Don't worry! It's just a paladin with some underpowered prestige class! My animal companion can solo it!
Batman Wizard: Wait, how do we know if it's underpowered?
Codzilla: Bah, you worry too much! We're fullcasters, what could possibly go-OH GODS HE HAS EPIC SPELLCASTING! THE PAIN! NO, PLEASE DON'T USE CHEESED OUT GATE OH S***-
Batman wizard: Ooookkkk, I guess I'll try to get some more levels.

Prcs that grant 9th level spellcasting before epic: fixing noncasters on epic since Complete Arcane.:smallbiggrin:

Emmerask
2010-05-02, 03:30 PM
Use this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer).

Even better, make yourself Ethreal, and then target him with Transdimensional(Com Arc) spells.


Transdimensional only works the other way as far as I know.

ie being on the material plane targeting etheral being -> np
being on the etheral plane targeting material plane beings -> no

Flickerdart
2010-05-02, 03:38 PM
The cube is not immune to everything that's pre-epic, and an epic level, epic-casting, caster with feats to spare on Spell Stowaway(Time stop) isn't going to be bothered by something that's both (A)Pre-epic and (B)Vulnerable to something.
But does the one running the Paladin know of the Cube's (the new Cube, not the old one) vulnerabilities? I'm willing to bet no.

Reynard
2010-05-02, 03:42 PM
Unless they happen to have access to, for example, the Internet.

Flickerdart
2010-05-02, 03:43 PM
Yes, but he only needs to kill the Paladin once. Unless the Paladin says "wait, I'm going to look up how to counter your build and then rebuild this guy" the internet won't help.

Lord Loss
2010-05-02, 04:23 PM
he's got 10 lvls of divine crusader and 24-26 of Paladin.

Also he will either be fighting me with the help of the druid, or alone, single combat. The likeliness of us running into the army is low.

absolmorph
2010-05-02, 04:29 PM
The cube is not immune to everything that's pre-epic, and an epic level, epic-casting, caster with feats to spare on Spell Stowaway(Time stop) isn't going to be bothered by something that's both (A)Pre-epic and (B)Vulnerable to something.
IIRC, the Cube is only really vulnerable to Disjunction.
And inside the cube is a wizard. That's not exactly a minor danger.

Lord Loss
2010-05-02, 04:32 PM
So... out of curiosity how do we make the cube. I've heard of it, but I don't know how to build it. Also, I don't have SC or Complete Mage. :smallfrown:.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-02, 04:34 PM
It's apparently a trade secret of sorts - how to build the Cube isn't explained, because someone might then be able to dissect it and figure out its weakness.

Weezer
2010-05-02, 04:49 PM
It's apparently a trade secret of sorts - how to build the Cube isn't explained, because someone might then be able to dissect it and figure out its weakness.

Exactly, which is why I never understand why people ever suggest it as a build since no one actually knows 100% what it is (barring the creator and whichever TOS person reviewed/adjudicated it)

Yukitsu
2010-05-02, 04:59 PM
I'm pretty sure it was just something like layers of force, then prismatic with forbidance using the stronghold builders guide rather than the normal spell rules, with a set of lyres of building, with some spell turrets on the outside.

By the by, I don't think any of the pre-epic counters to him teleporting into the cube can actually stop an epic teleport.

Oslecamo
2010-05-02, 05:06 PM
Yes, but he only needs to kill the Paladin once. Unless the Paladin says "wait, I'm going to look up how to counter your build and then rebuild this guy" the internet won't help.

Knowledge checks. If the casters are using knowledge checks to know every little detail of the world so they prepare their spells acordingly, then it's only fair the epic paladin gets to do so. And 36 levels means a lot of knowledge ranks.

*.*.*.*
2010-05-02, 05:13 PM
Why is everyone saying wizard 20?

With enough prestige classes(Incantrix and the such), it narrows everything down more

Flickerdart
2010-05-02, 05:41 PM
Knowledge checks. If the casters are using knowledge checks to know every little detail of the world so they prepare their spells acordingly, then it's only fair the epic paladin gets to do so. And 36 levels means a lot of knowledge ranks.
The Cube isn't royalty or undead, so the Paladin's knowledges mean very little. Additionally, Knowledge isn't just enough, because when the Paladin learns that he needs to take down the Cube, it's a bit too late to start preparing, because the Cube is about to kill him. In order to stand even the tiniest chance, the Paladin has to be built with the Cube in mind. And there are no Knowledge checks that let that happen. Why would Knowledge let him know what's going to happen in the day, or who's going to attack him and how? Wizards use Divination, a Paladin hasn't got any.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-02, 06:14 PM
The Cube isn't royalty or undead, so the Paladin's knowledges mean very little. Additionally, Knowledge isn't just enough, because when the Paladin learns that he needs to take down the Cube, it's a bit too late to start preparing, because the Cube is about to kill him. In order to stand even the tiniest chance, the Paladin has to be built with the Cube in mind. And there are no Knowledge checks that let that happen. Why would Knowledge let him know what's going to happen in the day, or who's going to attack him and how? Wizards use Divination, a Paladin hasn't got any.

There is such a thing as cross-class skills. At level 36, he can have 18 ranks in a cross-class Knowledge skill - but you're right that it doesn't help with him needing to have been pre-built to defeat it.

Then again, it also doesn't help that this is a pointless line of argument, because the OP likely is not the Cube creator, and so can't re-create it.

Runestar
2010-05-02, 06:30 PM
Anyone realise the paladin too can qualify and take epic spellcasting? Though it will cost him 6 epic feats.:smallamused:

Flickerdart
2010-05-02, 06:36 PM
There is such a thing as cross-class skills. At level 36, he can have 18 ranks in a cross-class Knowledge skill - but you're right that it doesn't help with him needing to have been pre-built to defeat it.

Then again, it also doesn't help that this is a pointless line of argument, because the OP likely is not the Cube creator, and so can't re-create it.
The older, less indestructible version has been put up somewhere. It's the newer one that's not disclosed.

tyckspoon
2010-05-02, 06:42 PM
Anyone realise the paladin too can qualify and take epic spellcasting? Though it will cost him 6 epic feats.:smallamused:

It was mentioned earlier- Divine Crusader actually qualifies for Epic Spellcasting on its own. If the.. DM? Paladin's player? OP hasn't mentioned who built the target.. has realized that and made good use of it, it's probably a GG situation.. about the only thing I can think of is Disjunction spam and hoping the Paladin rolls really low on his saves for key magic items. Alternately, Chain Greater Dispel Magic on his items- the caster level for items tends to be relatively low, and he'll be about a zillion times easier to handle if his weapon/armor/save boosting cloak of Charisma/boots of teleporting and flight/ring of protection/halo of Ioun stones are turned off. (You'll still want at least one Disjunction to zot off any Epic buffs he's using.)

Aharon
2010-05-03, 04:24 AM
The Paladin, if this campaign goes by WBL, has access to equipment worth almost 9 million gp. The Cube was built on 370000 gp (WBL 110000 + 260000 gp landlord feat). If you can get defenses against almost anything with 370000 gp, when trying hard to do so and exploiting lots of badly written rules, you should be able to do so with more than 23 times that amount rather easily, even if you opt not to use exploits, even if epic spellcasting is out.

Killer Angel
2010-05-03, 04:33 AM
The Paladin, if this campaign goes by WBL, has access to equipment worth almost 9 million gp. The Cube was built on 370000 gp (WBL 110000 + 260000 gp landlord feat). If you can get defenses against almost anything with 370000 gp, when trying hard to do so and exploiting lots of badly written rules, you should be able to do so with more than 23 times that amount rather easily, even if you opt not to use exploits, even if epic spellcasting is out.

True, but you must know what you're doing, while you're spending all those gps.
Anyway, I agree that, with all that wealth, the paladin should have all covered...

Aharon
2010-05-03, 04:43 AM
Well, it obviously won't help if he spends a million on a huge castle (DMG p. 101) :smallcool:

Fortuna
2010-05-03, 04:54 AM
I think the previously mentioned infinite damage sorc may be all but required, probably using searing orbs.

Or you could try a save-game psion. Which means that if there's a chance of victory, you win.

Flickerdart
2010-05-03, 09:36 AM
The Paladin, if this campaign goes by WBL, has access to equipment worth almost 9 million gp. The Cube was built on 370000 gp (WBL 110000 + 260000 gp landlord feat). If you can get defenses against almost anything with 370000 gp, when trying hard to do so and exploiting lots of badly written rules, you should be able to do so with more than 23 times that amount rather easily, even if you opt not to use exploits, even if epic spellcasting is out.
Even if the Paladin finds out about the PC building a Cube (without any built-in ways of doing this, mind), he'll already be behind. The PC will finish his Cube faster and attack before the Paladin can make his.

The point is, without foreknowledge of the Cube, there's no way to defeat the Cube.

Aharon
2010-05-03, 09:40 AM
Well, he could have Able learner, UMD and lots of Scrolls of CoP :smallbiggrin:

and I doubt the Cube can deal with epic spellcasting, which the right paladin build might have access to, as noted before.

Flickerdart
2010-05-03, 09:49 AM
But the Paladin will still need to build the correct Epic spell to defeat it, and unless he brought all his mitigators with him, that's not going to cut it.

Yukitsu
2010-05-03, 10:03 AM
That one shouldn't actually be too hard. All he really needs is an unrestricted teleport to get into the thing anyway, and a lot of epics have that one, just to avoid the millions of things that can block teleports.

Flickerdart
2010-05-03, 10:09 AM
The Transport seed still goes through the Astral plane. I don't remember if the Cube does anything about that, but it might. Then, provided that the Cube has enough room for the Paladin to appear in (instead of, say, getting shredded by the walls of the Cube) he's used his standard action for the round (even though it takes a minute to cast, I presume he'd have mitigated that away somehow) and is now facing an angry Wizard on the Wizard's terms. That's not a winning combination.

Oslecamo
2010-05-03, 11:33 AM
The Transport seed still goes through the Astral plane. I don't remember if the Cube does anything about that, but it might. Then, provided that the Cube has enough room for the Paladin to appear in (instead of, say, getting shredded by the walls of the Cube) he's used his standard action for the round (even though it takes a minute to cast, I presume he'd have mitigated that away somehow) and is now facing an angry Wizard on the Wizard's terms. That's not a winning combination.

Belt of battle is a pre-epic item. It's one of the basis of the lockdown build.

Meh, a epic paladin could probably afford all the lockdown pieces and with unrestricted teleport is go in, AMF, aoo the wizard to death.

Plus, lv 36. The WBL alone is staggering. He can afford to be immune to pretty much everything but disjuction. And if the wizard throws a disjuction inside the cube, well...:smallamused: