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Miles_Teg
2010-05-03, 05:22 AM
Hey-

My group just hit 7th level, and we were talking Prestige Classes the other day after our session. I hadn't really thought about what to do with my Thoth-worshipping wizard4/cleric3 and our DM suggested the Mystic Theurge (DMG p192). I did not think much of it, and asked if he would let me increase the HD to a d6. He thought I was crazy- he says it is overpowered, because it allows a PC to advance in two spell-casting classes every level.

This touched off a minor group argument; the DM and a player think this PrC is overpowered, and 4 of us think it is really rather bland.

I'm fine with abiding by his decision; his game and all that. I'm not going to take any levels in it, but I'm curious to see if there is any kind of consensus out there on this issue.

Overpowered? Underpowered? Just Right?

Killer Angel
2010-05-03, 05:26 AM
The overpowered choice has been made: to follow the dual class path Wiz/cleric is a poor option, cause you'll stay behind the spell power of a single class caster.
MT helps a little, mitigating the initial (and permanent) disadvantage. But it's absolutely not overpowered.

PId6
2010-05-03, 05:42 AM
It's a horribly designed class that leads to completely underpowered characters unless the PC is specifically built to break it (which yours is not). Advancing two classes may seen powerful at first glance, but the prereqs make it so that you're almost always behind a single-classed wizard or cleric.

The main problem with Mystic Theurge is that it requires at least wizard 3/cleric 3 to enter. This means that you lose out on three caster levels in either class compared to a single-classed wizard or cleric. At level 7, you'll still be casting 2nd level spells, while a wiz 7 or clr 7 is casting 4th level ones. And considering that increasing spell level leads to exponential increases in power, a Mystic Theurge is incredibly behind throughout its entire career.

However, since you're a wizard 4/cleric 3 already, you still should take the class, even if your DM won't let you make it more viable. It's still better than taking one class at a time, and +1 average hp per level won't matter that much anyway once you have higher level spells to make hit points meaningless.

Optimystik
2010-05-03, 05:43 AM
Definitely Underpowered if you don't get in with early entry, and I think Just Right if you do.

The former puts you at least 3 levels behind a single-class caster - that's too large a gap for your second class to compensate for in most cases. Casting 2nd-level spells while the game expects you to be casting 4th-level spells is problematic - for you and your party.

The latter puts you just 1 level behind - still a pain, but now the spells from your other class at least have a chance to make up for it.

Graymayre
2010-05-03, 05:51 AM
The idea of a man in control of both the divine and arcane is awesome.

The class itself is not.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-03, 05:52 AM
Hey-

My group just hit 7th level, and we were talking Prestige Classes the other day after our session. I hadn't really thought about what to do with my Thoth-worshipping wizard4/cleric3 and our DM suggested the Mystic Theurge (DMG p192). I did not think much of it, and asked if he would let me increase the HD to a d6. He thought I was crazy- he says it is overpowered, because it allows a PC to advance in two spell-casting classes every level.

This touched off a minor group argument; the DM and a player think this PrC is overpowered, and 4 of us think it is really rather bland.

I'm fine with abiding by his decision; his game and all that. I'm not going to take any levels in it, but I'm curious to see if there is any kind of consensus out there on this issue.

Overpowered? Underpowered? Just Right?

MT has great class features, and a steep, steep cost.

You've already paid the cost. There's no reason NOT to take MT now. MT gets really good if you can find ways to get into it early. As is, it's probably the single best PrC for your current character build.

Not overpowered, but you've got an underpowered option. Might as well make the best of it.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-05-03, 05:54 AM
Your spells/day and spell selection matter little when you can still only cast one spell per round. Compared to a single-classed Wizard or Cleric of equal level, a Mystic Theurge is far less powerful because he is casting lower level spells just as often as the single-classed character is casting his higher level spells. Not only is a Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge not overpowered, it ends up being far less powerful than a single-classed character. Indeed, if your character were currently a Wizard 3/ Cleric 3/ Mystic Theurge 1, you would be casting 2nd level spells in two classes, whereas a single-classed character would be casting 4th level spells. At the next level you would gain 3rd level spells, and the next level a single-classed character would have 5th level spells, you're always 1.5 spell levels behind. Power scales exponentially with spell level, i.e. two 1st level spells are less powerful than one 2nd level spell, two 2nd level spells are less powerful than one 3rd level spell, two 3rd level spells are less powerful than one 4th level spell, etc. Your doubled spells/day is less powerful than the higher level spells of a single-classed character. Add to that the fact that it takes you twice as many rounds to cast them all, and you'll be lucky to contribute anything significant at all.

Here is my advice for this character: Tell your DM that you agree that Mystic Theurge is overpowered, and that you'd rather not use it. However, you don't think your character will be strong enough as a multiclass Wizard/Cleric without it, so you'd like to change the character to something more viable without using an overpowered prestige class. Ask if you can switch to a single-classed Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric), which in flavor has very few differences from a Wizard/Cleric. You would get the Knowledge domain for free, so your other two domains would be Magic and Rune. You would keep Scribe Scroll due to the Rune domain, and you would be able to activate magic items as though you still had Wizard levels. You could swap around your ability scores to put a lower stat on Intelligence, possibly making Dex or Con higher for better survivability. Your spells would progress much more quickly, making them much more powerful than those of a multiclass character, and the character wouldn't really play any differently than it does now apart from spell selection.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-03, 06:07 AM
Your spells/day and spell selection matter little when you can still only cast one spell per round. Compared to a single-classed Wizard or Cleric of equal level, a Mystic Theurge is far less powerful because he is casting lower level spells just as often as the single-classed character is casting his higher level spells. Not only is a Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge not overpowered, it ends up being far less powerful than a single-classed character. Indeed, if your character were currently a Wizard 3/ Cleric 3/ Mystic Theurge 1, you would be casting 2nd level spells in two classes, whereas a single-classed character would be casting 4th level spells. At the next level you would gain 3rd level spells, and the next level a single-classed character would have 5th level spells, you're always 1.5 spell levels behind. Power scales exponentially with spell level, i.e. two 1st level spells are less powerful than one 2nd level spell, two 2nd level spells are less powerful than one 3rd level spell, two 3rd level spells are less powerful than one 4th level spell, etc. Your doubled spells/day is less powerful than the higher level spells of a single-classed character. Add to that the fact that it takes you twice as many rounds to cast them all, and you'll be lucky to contribute anything significant at all.

Here is my advice for this character: Tell your DM that you agree that Mystic Theurge is overpowered, and that you'd rather not use it. However, you don't think your character will be strong enough as a multiclass Wizard/Cleric without it, so you'd like to change the character to something more viable without using an overpowered prestige class. Ask if you can switch to a single-classed Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric), which in flavor has very few differences from a Wizard/Cleric. You would get the Knowledge domain for free, so your other two domains would be Magic and Rune. You would keep Scribe Scroll due to the Rune domain, and you would be able to activate magic items as though you still had Wizard levels. You could swap around your ability scores to put a lower stat on Intelligence, possibly making Dex or Con higher for better survivability. Your spells would progress much more quickly, making them much more powerful than those of a multiclass character, and the character wouldn't really play any differently than it does now apart from spell selection.
Not true in all cases. MT/Psychic Theurge/Cerebremancer can all be powerful, IF you can find things to do with spells.

Buffs, utility, etc mean that you cast spells BEFORE battles.
Quicken lets you get off powers at twice the speed.
Spells that are naturally swift actions also help here.

No, if you build for theurge, you can do great things with it. It just has to be built for.

Geiger Counter
2010-05-03, 06:13 AM
I was thinking about a MT base class, basically a sorcerer that gets half the number of spell perday/known but on two lists, the second lists draw from the cleric's known spells, I do not feel such a class would be overpowered. Alternatively allowing the wizard to trade in his bonus feats for adding a few spells normally found only on divine castor's lists wouldn't be overpowered neither. A warforged can already heal itself with repair spells anyways.

Optimystik
2010-05-03, 06:15 AM
Probably the worst part about MT is the lack of class features. At the time, WotC thought that merely having two lists was powerful enough; you didn't need any other synergy or incentive to take the class.

By the time they learned from that mistake (via theurges like Arcane Hierophant, Eldritch Theurge, Anima Mage, Soulcaster etc.) the damage was done to the earlier ones.

The Pathfinder MT (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/prestigeClasses/mysticTheurge.html) attempts to address this oversight.

Souhiro
2010-05-03, 06:25 AM
Well, many people disagrees with the MT for the reasons here: You're would be Cure-Moderate and Acid Arrow when were supossed to Cure-Critical or throwing Fireballs. It would be to have a weakness

But you have the weakness, no matter you take the clase or not. Now, you learned to cope with it. so I encourage you to become a MT.

The main reason is not just having a huge spell selection, but DOUBLING your spell slots for each level! you can be the more trigger-happy caster in the world, and never run out of spells!

Don't worry about your HP. As you are the spellcaster a foe hiting you would be your doom, because the constant concentration cheks. And a few HP more won't make a big diference. A good spellcaster really need to be behind a good meatshield, or will face that he can't beat four pitiful goblins because their constant attacks keeps ruining his concentration.

And don't worry about your party asking for "one more sword" in the battle. When you start fireballing, enlighthing, Praying, etc... they sure won't miss your D8 mace.

Optimystik
2010-05-03, 06:30 AM
Agreed - inform your DM that the PrC is the only hope your character has of being salvageable at this point. If he disallows it, you may as well reroll or xbox.

Lysander
2010-05-03, 06:36 AM
The Mystic Theurge is also a great way of stopping a wizard/cleric from vastly outpacing the other party members in power. Instead of turning into a virtual deity with 7th, 8th, 9th level spells the full caster becomes suited for casting low level buffs and utility spells all day with a huge range of options, but they need the brute force of the melee types. It's a good way to make a team player.

Optimystik
2010-05-03, 06:40 AM
The Mystic Theurge is also a great way of stopping a wizard/cleric from vastly outpacing the other party members in power. Instead of turning into a virtual deity with 7th, 8th, 9th level spells the full caster becomes suited for casting low level buffs and utility spells all day with a huge range of options, but they need the brute force of the melee types. It's a good way to make a team player.

You can get 9ths just fine with an MT, even without early entry. You just get them late.

Wiz 3/Cleric 3/MT10/Wiz 4, for instance, casts as a Wizard 17 - 9th-level spells. Use the Cleric 13 side for buffs.

Yeah you're weaker, but that drops you to what, tier 2? 3? You're still way ahead of the Fighter and Rogue.

Kurald Galain
2010-05-03, 06:42 AM
Mystic Theurge, if anything, is underrated. Yes, in terms of heavy optimization, it is sub-par; but no, most groups in practice do not play under such optimization.

Wizard/10 is tier 1. Cleric/10 is tier 1. Wiz3/Cle3/MT4 is what, tier 2 or perhaps 3? Many fun and playable classes exist at tier 3, so the MT is still a useful build.

Runestar
2010-05-03, 06:55 AM
So is your DM allowing you to retrain that 4th lv of wizard to 1 lv of mystic theurge?

Optimystik
2010-05-03, 07:09 AM
Mystic Theurge, if anything, is underrated. Yes, in terms of heavy optimization, it is sub-par; but no, most groups in practice do not play under such optimization.

It's not simply a matter of optimization preference, though. As stated earlier, entering MT "vanilla" has you casting 2nd-level spells at a point where the game expects you to have 4ths. Depending on your DM, that can be "subpar"... or it can be fatal.

On top of everything else - if you're theurging the wrong classes, you end up having to deal with MAD issues. A Wiz/Cleric theurge has to keep both Wis and Int fairly high, while still keeping an eye on Dex and Con. That doesn't leave a lot of wiggle-room, spells or no spells.

Critical
2010-05-03, 07:17 AM
If you take Precocious Apprentice feat, you can enter MT at Wizard 1/Cleric 3, then it gets kind of good. Be an elf, and continue with Arcane Hierophant after MT.

Optimystik
2010-05-03, 07:20 AM
If you take Precocious Apprentice feat, you can enter MT at Wizard 1/Cleric 3, then it gets kind of good. Be an elf, and continue with Arcane Hierophant after MT.

You need Druid, not Cleric, for that one :smallwink:

warmachine
2010-05-03, 07:55 AM
Character design should be based on personality and backstory first, power level second but Wizard 4/Cleric 3 is a horrid drop in the power curve. Horrid. You'd be better off roleplaying a very religious Wizard. You do not have to be a Cleric to worship a god.

You may as well play a Mystic Theurge as you've already taken the power loss. MT has access to lots of spells but you won't have the best spells for your level. That stings. Also remember that armour interferes with arcane spellcasting, nullifying a useful Cleric proficiency, and, far more importantly, you can still only cast one spell per round. MT is not overpowered.

However, I've played an MT and it was fun. I'm a tactician and a wide of spells and scrolls gave me a tool for every situation.

Critical
2010-05-03, 08:11 AM
You need Druid, not Cleric, for that one :smallwink:

Ow, right you are. :smallbiggrin: For the Clerics there's True Necromancer(Yet another example of evil getting all the good stuff).

Greenish
2010-05-03, 08:15 AM
Ow, right you are. :smallbiggrin: For the Clerics there's True Necromancer(Yet another example of evil getting all the good stuff).I fail to see the connection between true necro and "good stuff".

PId6
2010-05-03, 08:18 AM
Mystic Theurge, if anything, is underrated. Yes, in terms of heavy optimization, it is sub-par; but no, most groups in practice do not play under such optimization.

Wizard/10 is tier 1. Cleric/10 is tier 1. Wiz3/Cle3/MT4 is what, tier 2 or perhaps 3? Many fun and playable classes exist at tier 3, so the MT is still a useful build.
Actually, under heavy optimization, Mystic Theurge is borderline broken. A Wizard/Ur Priest/Mystic Theurge can easily get 9th level spells in both arcane and divine, using Ur Priest slots to DMM Persist and Wizard slots to rule the world. Even without Ur Priest, early entry can lead to powerful builds that barely sacrifice casting in one class to become proficient in another.

However, using it as intended, it is a terrible prc that puts you far below the power level of the entry classes, which makes for bad class design, regardless of whether the final class is actually playable. (Even the Truenamer has been proven to be playable; that doesn't make it a well-designed class.)

Kurald Galain
2010-05-03, 08:38 AM
Actually, under heavy optimization, Mystic Theurge is borderline broken. A Wizard/Ur Priest/Mystic Theurge can easily get 9th level spells in both arcane and divine,
That strikes me more as an example of Ur Priest being broken.


However, using it as intended, it is a terrible prc that puts you far below the power level of the entry classes,
Being below the power level (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OverNineThousand) of the entry class doesn't mean that a PRC is terrible; it may just as easily mean that the entry class is too strong.

Souhiro
2010-05-03, 08:43 AM
The "Terrible" thing that all of you say applies to every non-full spellCaster prestige class.

Take for example,the SpellSword, or the Eldrich Knight, or the Both of them requires to sacrifice a few levels learning non-spell classes. But the result is quite good: a spellcaster who can minions by hilself without draining his low levels, or one of the greatest classes (Greater Invisibility,and now... Stealth Dissintegrate, Stealth Dissintegrate, Stealth Dissintegrate!)


The greatest advantage I see to the MT isn't about knowing a lot spells, is about the enormous cuantity of spell slots they gain. In pathfinder, the Mistyc Theurge can even trow two spell simultaneously, making him able to MeteorSwarm and Implosionate a target the very same turn!

Gnaeus
2010-05-03, 08:49 AM
The "Terrible" thing that all of you say applies to every non-full spellCaster prestige class.

Take for example,the SpellSword, or the Eldrich Knight, or the Both of them requires to sacrifice a few levels learning non-spell classes. But the result is quite good: a spellcaster who can minions by hilself without draining his low levels, or one of the greatest classes (Greater Invisibility,and now... Stealth Dissintegrate, Stealth Dissintegrate, Stealth Dissintegrate!)


The greatest advantage I see to the MT isn't about knowing a lot spells, is about the enormous cuantity of spell slots they gain. In pathfinder, the Mistyc Theurge can even trow two spell simultaneously, making him able to MeteorSwarm and Implosionate a target the very same turn!

1. Pathfinder MT is better. Not a lot better, but better.

2. Spellsword is a 1 level dip, and Eldrich Knight only loses 1 caster level, and at that is only really good in core builds because later PRCs (like Abjurant Champion) are so much better.

3. Yes, almost all non-full casting PRCs are traps. There are very few classes that are worth losing a caster level. You have to get a LOT for that level for it to be worth considering.

lesser_minion
2010-05-03, 08:54 AM
In essence, if you felt like your character was doing OK beforehand (or, at worst, if you thought they were a little mediocre), then you should be fine, MT should fit your character pretty well, and your character will fit into the game pretty well.

You don't have to have the most powerful character possible in order to play the game.

On the other hand, if you didn't feel like you were doing anywhere near as well as the other characters in your party, then you might be better off asking the DM for a rebuild.

In reality, it all comes down to how difficult your campaign is.

PId6
2010-05-03, 09:00 AM
That strikes me more as an example of Ur Priest being broken.
Hence why I also mentioned that it's still good without Ur Priest. A cleric 3/wizard 1/MT 10/cleric +X only loses 1 caster level as cleric and gets 11th level wizard casting, which is almost certainly more powerful than pure cleric. A wizard/druid/MT/Arcane Hierophant can get 9th level arcane and divine. Classes like Mystic Theurge and Cerebremancer are quite powerful if heavily optimized; it's only when used as intended that they're bad.


Being below the power level (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OverNineThousand) of the entry class doesn't mean that a PRC is terrible; it may just as easily mean that the entry class is too strong.
A prestige class should be on a power level equal to the entry class, trading certain capabilities for other ones or specializing at a certain task. It should not be an exercise in purposefully gimping yourself; that's just bad design. Most of the best-made prestige classes are +0 or +1 classes for that reason. The power level of casting classes are a problem, but it's not the job of the PrC to fix them; self-gimping is easy enough without having trap-laden PrCs around to attract newcomers.

Telonius
2010-05-03, 09:04 AM
Another problem with Mystic Theurge: in order to cast your Wizard spells, you're almost always going to have to go with light armor, taking away one of the advantages of the Cleric class (armored casting with no spell failure). Technically speaking this isn't as bad as it sounds (if armor starts mattering to a Wizard, something has gone horribly wrong). But if your DM thinks Mystic Theurge is overpowered, he might be convinced by the argument.

Godskook
2010-05-03, 09:05 AM
MT has great class features, and a steep, steep cost.

You've already paid the cost. There's no reason NOT to take MT now. MT gets really good if you can find ways to get into it early. As is, it's probably the single best PrC for your current character build.

Not overpowered, but you've got an underpowered option. Might as well make the best of it.

This +1.

Mystic Theurge isn't great, but its the best your character can get into, OP, so do it. And while you're absolutely right that a HD bump would be nice, it isn't required(It's also only +10 hp after 10 levels, so not very great). And you can compensate by devoting 4+ spell slots a day to the spell Aid, to get 1d8+CL(Max 1d8+10) temp hp per casting.

Myou
2010-05-03, 09:13 AM
This +1.

Mystic Theurge isn't great, but its the best your character can get into, OP, so do it. And while you're absolutely right that a HD bump would be nice, it isn't required(It's also only +10 hp after 10 levels, so not very great). And you can compensate by devoting 4+ spell slots a day to the spell Aid, to get 1d8+CL(Max 1d8+10) temp hp per casting.

+2.

No, wait, I'll have +1 Flaming. :D

Ingus
2010-05-03, 09:45 AM
Mystic Theurge is definitely not overpowered per se, but you can make it at least at pair with other PCs.
First: MT is THE buffer. Having both arcane and divine buffs is a good advantage.
Second: MT is a good self-buffer. You can meld the two schools with ease in combos not intended to be playable.
Third: in late levels, you use magic items + slots endlessly.
To be short, rather than be one shot/one kill, you chose to be nevermore naked. An there is the sublte and not completely rational pleasure of the taboo: wiz and cler spell? No way!

aivanther
2010-05-03, 12:03 PM
There's two main weaknesses to the class as I see it.

One has been hit numerous times: Your spells are lower level than everyone else's. Then again, you're already there.

The second thing is the gimp for its supposed advantage, dual class spell casting: Action Economy. You can only cast so many things a round, so having 50 spells/day rather than 35 spells/day (not precise numbers!) does not end up helping unless you have a LOT of encounters and/or you have very very long encounters. This is especially true when the latter's 35 spells are better than the former's 50. The gimped CL also means it's harder to quicken things, curtailing your action economy even more than the others.

However, as other have said, you're already a cleric/wizard, might as well take it to make life easier.

Doug Lampert
2010-05-03, 12:53 PM
Not true in all cases. MT/Psychic Theurge/Cerebremancer can all be powerful, IF you can find things to do with spells.

Buffs, utility, etc mean that you cast spells BEFORE battles.
Quicken lets you get off powers at twice the speed.
Spells that are naturally swift actions also help here.

No, if you build for theurge, you can do great things with it. It just has to be built for.

The thing is, if you're using the PHB feat he doesn't get useful quicken till 3 levels later than a single classed. And the drop in number of high level slots means that even then the single classed may get more use out of it. (Metamagic reducers are the MT's friend here.)

And as a practical matter he doesn't get any more buffs per day than a single classed character who concentrates on buffing (by the time you have more level 2+ slots, the single classed character is able to cast MASS versions of buffs that have mass versions, and the MT had to spend two feats to get the durations he should have for his level).

And you need two abilities + con rather than one + con.

MT is perfectly viable, and anyone playing it SHOULD hand out buffs and pre-combat spells like candy on halloween, at mid-high level you won't run out of slots (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), but it's simply not as powerful as a single classed PHB full caster.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-03, 01:36 PM
@ OP: The Mystic Theurge has lots of problems, but the #1 problem is its entry. Having to multiclass as it requires is pretty much awful for your power level. Once you've met the requirements, the PrC is solid-ish. A Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 1 is much better than a Wizard 4/Cleric 3, and a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10 is indescribably better than Wizard 8/Cleric 8. All of the above is much weaker than Wizard 16 or Cleric 16, but it's too late for that.

Not only should you take Mystic Theurge, you should beg and plead with your DM to allow you to swap that 4th level of Wizard for Mystic Theurge. There literally is no reason no to. You should also try to convince him to give the MT some actual class features - the Pathfinder MT is decent, though I see absolutely no reason why they treat the alternate spell source thing as a +1 Metamagic; it's not worth +1. I'd recommend the Pathfinder MT ignoring that spell level increase; then it's decent. Though the main advantage of it only occurs if you have a spontaneous caster on one side, which you don't....


Being below the power level (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OverNineThousand) of the entry class doesn't mean that a PRC is terrible; it may just as easily mean that the entry class is too strong.
I completely and utterly disagree with you. There is no meaningful metric for PrC balance than how it compares to the entry classes. If your entry class is Wizard, a Wizard X and a Wizard Y/PrC Z where Y+Z=X should be equally powerful. If this is too powerful (read, Wizard X is too powerful), then the problem is with Wizard, not the PrC. PrCs as stealth-nerfs, even when justified, is horrible design unless you have some rule like "If you play a Wizard, you must lose caster level(s) somewhere, period", which is just weird.

Because otherwise what you're saying is "I'm going to punish you for doing anything interesting with your build", and that's just awful.

Cogidubnus
2010-05-03, 01:37 PM
Mystic Theurge, at low levels, is good for two things. Healing and buffing. Which is how a caster has the most impact anyway. Blasting is infamously ineffective compared to, say, enlarging the party barbarian. So it does have its advantages. And if you object to PrCs cutting off after 10 levels (I do) it can be very powerful. You'll be getting spells late, but you will be getting them, and then it's much more broken at epic level than normal epic casters.

Souhiro
2010-05-03, 01:45 PM
Well,there is one feat (Complete archane,or quintaesential, I think) that enables you to prepare a metamagic feat.

So, if you want to quiquen a spell, you prepare a "quiquen spell metaspell" in your 4th (or 5th,or wathever) spell slot.

But that depends of the patiente of your GM. In my games, I won't allow an obscure prestige class,like the Arcane Hierophant or Eldritch Theurge, since it is basically a "pumped up" MT.

marjan
2010-05-03, 02:42 PM
That strikes me more as an example of Ur Priest being broken.

To be more precise, it's interaction of those two being broken. Ur-priest's spellcasting, by itself, isn't something to get excited about.

Il_Vec
2010-05-03, 03:01 PM
To be more precise, it's interaction of those two being broken. Ur-priest's spellcasting, by itself, isn't something to get excited about.

Oh but I do love casting level 9 spells at ECL 14, yes I do. The class even lets me burn through low-level spells to do it!

marjan
2010-05-03, 03:09 PM
Oh but I do love casting level 9 spells at ECL 14, yes I do.

Correction.

Do you also like casting lvl1 spells at lvl6. Until level 11 you are behind full-casters with spell levels, next 6 levels you are ahead and after that on-par (with extremely crappy number of spell slots).


The class even lets me burn through low-level spells to do it!

Technically those are class features, other than spellcasting, but even counting that, your number of spell slots limits usefulness of this and its only once per day.

Optimystik
2010-05-03, 03:11 PM
Mystic Theurge, at low levels, is good for two things. Healing and buffing. Which is how a caster has the most impact anyway. Blasting is infamously ineffective compared to, say, enlarging the party barbarian. So it does have its advantages. And if you object to PrCs cutting off after 10 levels (I do) it can be very powerful. You'll be getting spells late, but you will be getting them, and then it's much more broken at epic level than normal epic casters.

No; It's not just about "blasting vs. buffing" either.

Without early entry/Practiced Caster (twice - once for each side), even buffing can be a problem. First off, you're three levels late on either side - you'll have more low-level buffs, but none of the higher ones. You'll be casting Alter Self at the same level the straight Wizard gets Polymorph, or Bull's Strength while the straight cleric gets Divine Power.

Second, your CL is lower. This is itself a twofold problem. One, your buffs don't last as long, which sucks when you're dealing with rounds/level or even minutes/level spells. Two, they're child's play to counter/dispel.

Third and final, you're MAD. Even leaving Int and Wis base and not worrying about spell DCs, you need a minimum amount in each just to get your spells. Your attributes are split between two stats; your gear is split between two stats. And you can't neglect Con - you won't be much use in combat if you're failing all your Concentration checks - or Dex either - you won't get much buffing done if you tank Initiative.

That's a heavily-stacked deck to be playing against. As for "you'll be even better at epic," very few games start that high; and even if you do, you'll still have to boost your CL just to break even with single-classed opponents - you're 4 CL short of Epic Spellcasting even on your primary casting class.

As if all that wasn't bad enough; MT is only 10 levels long. When you run out, your "off-class" will suffer even more. Buffing/healing out of it will become increasingly pointless: your buffs will be dispelled at a sneeze, and most things will either not scratch you or leave you a grease stain, making healing pointless too. The MT epic progression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClassProgressions.htm#epicMysticTheurge) is awful - you might as well just alternate levels of wizard and cleric, you get the same benefit and more HP.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-03, 05:38 PM
If the DM thinks that mystic theurge is horrifically overpowered, offer to consolidate your arcane/divine casterhood, and retrain as an archivist. You get to cast wizard spells as divine spells from a prayerbook, and you get to focus on Int-based casting, plus you get class features. It has a similar spell progression as both wizard and cleric, and you can even cast in armor. You'll lose your familiar, if any, but you can ask to see if you can use archivist casting as the prereq for the Obtain Familiar feat.

All of the flavor, none of the fat. It's sexy. And your DM may just allow it.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-03, 05:50 PM
Everyone's hit the nail on the head about Mystic Theurge. It's great for Sublime Ur-Theurge shenanigans, but other than that...http://101tees.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/trap.jpg

Pluto
2010-05-03, 05:54 PM
To be fair, Mystic Theurge levels are drastically better than levels in most other classes (exceptions being outrageous things like Incantatrix). A Wizard 5/Cleric 5/Mystic Theurge 10 should be able to trounce a Wizard 5/Cleric 5/Loremaster 10 in just about anything. So in that sense, it is over the power of other PrC's.

But if you qualify for MT, that shouldn't be a problem; you're giving up high-level spells, after all (assuming that most games take place under ECL20).

And, by way of Planar Binding, Summon Monster and Shapechange, a Wizard has access to Cleric spells already. And, via Miracle, Summon Monster and Magic Domain items, a Cleric with Wizard spells is nothing new.
So, yeah. MT's have it rough. (Compared to full prepared spellcasters, anyway.)

Superglucose
2010-05-03, 05:55 PM
Theurge is fine later on. Yes, yes, 3 wiz/3cleric/10 theurge/4wiz is less powerful than 20 wiz or 20 cleric, but um... wiz/cleric are tier 1. Most things are less powerful than 20wiz or 20cleric.

Prepare for a few levels of pain though.

Miles_Teg
2010-05-03, 05:57 PM
Wow, thanks for all the replies- I wasn't sure there would be much interest in this. I'm going to try to hit most of your points; unfortunately I don't have time to be poster-specific.

I started this character as a religious wizard, then added the cleric when we lost ours and the player brought in a rogue instead. No one wanted to bring in a new character or add cleric to theirs, so I threw it on. Right now it's myself, a halfling rogue, human barbarian, dwarven fighter, and human monk.

So far, I haven't noticed a problem with my power level, but we're not doing much more than foiling the plans of pirates and gnolls. I mostly use the cleric spells for buffs/heals, the wizard for offense. I do wear light armor, so I do deal with the spell failure chance.

I was somewhat turned off by the lack of class features; it would be nice to have some bells and whistles. I have no idea what those would be thoguh :smallsmile: . My DM doesn't believe in retraining :smallannoyed: so I'm stuck with that 4th level of wizard. Same with using the MT from another system. He also wont let us stray from Core, which is for him the PHB, DMG, MM, and the FRCS.

I'm doing alright when it comes to abilities, with 14Dex, 17Int, 16Wis, so it could be worse. It could probably be a lot better for all I know, too. I've never been a whiz-bang optimizer, and it doesn't look like I'll be starting anytime soon.

It does look like I'll be entering this PrC next level; it is looking like I'm better off doing it than not.

Thanks for everyones input! My turn to DM is coming up soon and I will be looking for advice for my gnome SWAT team campaign.

Study group calls.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-03, 06:06 PM
Ow, right you are. :smallbiggrin: For the Clerics there's True Necromancer(Yet another example of evil getting all the good stuff).

Obligatory:
http://blogs.muscleandfitness.com/david_barr/admiral_ackbar.jpg

Souhiro
2010-05-03, 06:28 PM
To Divide by Zero. Miles_Teg IS in the trap now. The weakness you anounce is about being Wizard 4, Cleric 3, Mystic 1 is weaker than being Wizard 8.

But since he took that levels, and his GM just said that he considers MT being "too powerful", it's unlikely that his GM will allow an obscure, non-core and way more powerful class.

MT is your best option now. Looking for more power into obscure sourcebooks can make your GM to see you as a powergamer. And in any game, the powergamers tend to receive more attention from the evil dudes.


So, he is in the trap. Mistic-Theurging is the way out. And Eidrich Theurge is selling your soul to the IFFC

Divide by Zero
2010-05-03, 06:45 PM
To Divide by Zero. Miles_Teg IS in the trap now. The weakness you anounce is about being Wizard 4, Cleric 3, Mystic 1 is weaker than being Wizard 8.

But since he took that levels, and his GM just said that he considers MT being "too powerful", it's unlikely that his GM will allow an obscure, non-core and way more powerful class.

MT is your best option now. Looking for more power into obscure sourcebooks can make your GM to see you as a powergamer. And in any game, the powergamers tend to receive more attention from the evil dudes.


So, he is in the trap. Mistic-Theurging is the way out. And Eidrich Theurge is selling your soul to the IFFC

The trap I was referring to was True Necromancer, which is in almost every way inferior to Mystic Theurge. I hope that wasn't the "way more powerful class" you were referring to.

Roderick_BR
2010-05-03, 07:24 PM
Of course all these "completely useless" concepts only apply when compared to a full caster. When compared to non-casters, you are just as good as them, being able to double the number of pre-battle buffs, utility, and fixing the damage after the battle.

But people will still say that losing caster levels will make you crippling weak, even if you are still twice as strong as the rest of your group. Heck, in a game where only one player will play a caster, I'd allow a MT as a support character, since he'll be on level with the non-casters, and still be crazyly useful.

Optimystik
2010-05-03, 07:30 PM
The trouble is that there can be plenty of enemy casters too. Being the buffer doesn't mean much if your buffs are flimsier than tissue.

It sounds like he's up against a whole not of non-casters for now; but the whole point of advising him on his build is to anticipate what might come up, not to handle what he's already facing.

gbprime
2010-05-03, 07:51 PM
The main problem with a Mystic Theurge build is not that you're giving up 3 caster levels off the top, it's the fact that you don't become powerful until well after 10th level. You don't want to spend the majority of the campaign BECOMING what you'd like to play. Instead, you want to hit your "I do everything I want to do" prime by level 10 to 12. That way you can enjoy being a badass for a while during the game.

That said, MT is great if you start with an alt caster or two. Take Ranger 8 / Knight of the Weave 3. At level 11, you've got a BAB 10 melee combatant that then goes up to a versatile caster in 2 classes (very versatile if you take the Ranger substitution levels and "can cast Wizard spells with Ranger slots" stuff from the book). At level 18, you've got 6th level arcane spells, 4th level ranger spells, and a BAB of 13 with improved 2-weapon fighting.

But I digress. You're cleric/wizard already. Your best options are Mystic Theurge and/or Dweomerkeeper (Complete Divine Enhancement). Dont' worry about the d4 HD. You can spare the spells to buff yourself.

sambo.
2010-05-03, 08:09 PM
mystic theurge (and Noctumancer incidently) are only really a viable choice if your DM will allow some Precocious Apprentice cheese. if they allow it, i'd reccomend taking the Practised Spellcaster feat twice to at least keep your caster level up.

otherwise, you'll be hideously down the spell power curve.

Godskook
2010-05-03, 08:57 PM
Ya'know, half the people posting here are missing two things:

1.This character is already a wiz 4/cleric 3.

2.He can't fix the above in any possible way.


I started this character as a religious wizard, then added the cleric when we lost ours and the player brought in a rogue instead. No one wanted to bring in a new character or add cleric to theirs, so I threw it on. Right now it's myself, a halfling rogue, human barbarian, dwarven fighter, and human monk.

Inside core, I'm not sure of any other way of doing that, but outside, there's arcane disciple, which let's you add a domain's worth of spells to your spell list.

Also, note that a wand of cure light wounds is probably the cheapest way in core to heal, and is cheap enough at your level that it won't affect your WBL too much.


So far, I haven't noticed a problem with my power level, but we're not doing much more than foiling the plans of pirates and gnolls. I mostly use the cleric spells for buffs/heals, the wizard for offense. I do wear light armor, so I do deal with the spell failure chance.

You're also the only spellcaster in your party. That helps too. You'll shine simply cause you're the only star in their sky.

Also, scrap the armor. You probably don't need it. Already, you have the spell-slots to deal with this problem quite easily. You have(or can get) shield and mage armor, giving you +8 AC off the bat without wearing even a little bit of metal.

Optimystik
2010-05-03, 09:17 PM
Ya'know, half the people posting here are missing two things:

1.This character is already a wiz 4/cleric 3.

2.He can't fix the above in any possible way.

Who missed that? He's been told "beg your DM to let you take MT" all the way back on page 1. The rest of the discussion has been "why is MT not as good as it looks, shouldn't combining two powerful classes be even more awesomer?"

Kirgoth
2010-05-03, 09:59 PM
Given your wiz4;cleric3.

Ask your gm to allow you to retrain as a wiz7 or cleric7 , possibly with some full caster progression prestige class.

Multiclassing casters is a bad idea, ive done it myself and it is a big mistake even if it looks sexy at first glance or when you finally approach epic levels.

A level 11 wizard with 6th level spells will wipe the floor with a wiz4;clr3;mt4 with 4th level wiz and 4th level clr spells; worse your encounters at this level will wipe the party out as your character will be sub-par.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-03, 10:05 PM
Mystic Theurge is a sexy option, you just need to exploit so many extra mechanics to make it sexy that the blunt force trauma that the DM gives you won't be worth it.

Beholder Mage/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge. Now I just need to find some crackers...

Draxar
2010-05-04, 07:04 AM
A prestige class should be on a power level equal to the entry class, trading certain capabilities for other ones or specializing at a certain task. It should not be an exercise in purposefully gimping yourself; that's just bad design.

Classes should be of equal power. They're not. I consider that a more major flaw than some prestige classes being less powerful than single-classing.

Also, prestige classes that aren't as powerful as the entry class can be good if you're an optimiser in a non-optimised group they let you optimise within the bounds of the class while not overpowering the rest of the group.


Ask your gm to allow you to retrain as a wiz7 or cleric7 , possibly with some full caster progression prestige class.

OP says his DM doesn't allow retraining.

PId6
2010-05-04, 07:22 AM
Classes should be of equal power. They're not. I consider that a more major flaw than some prestige classes being less powerful than single-classing.
I have no disagreements with these statements. Yes, overpowered base classes are a bigger problem than underpowered PrCs. That doesn't mean that underpowered PrCs isn't a problem, and they're certainly not any type of "fix" for broken base classes if that's the implication you're going for.


Also, prestige classes that aren't as powerful as the entry class can be good if you're an optimiser in a non-optimised group they let you optimise within the bounds of the class while not overpowering the rest of the group.
What about picking bad feats, the wrong spells, or choosing to start with higher Str than Int? There are so many ways already to purposefully lowering your own power level that having deceptively weak PrCs around is far more of a bug than a feature. If nothing else, a new player might easily walk into a trap like the Mystic Theurge and end up disappointed, which is more likely to happen than an optimizer not finding any ways to make his character weaker.

okpokalypse
2010-05-04, 11:01 AM
Given your levels, MT is the best option for you. Just get Practiced Spellcaster so that your 1st level of MT gives you 8 HD Fireballs / Lightning Bolts in those few blasting sitautions.

A previous poster was correct though in that blasting isn't a use good of most casters - with, IMO, Psion being the exception (Since you can get up to +2 Damage per Die with energy specializations)

MT isn't a horrible option all told though. Looking long-term you'll still get 9th level Wizard spells down the road, and you'll also have 7th Level Cleric Spells. So, you'll get those 9th level spells at L20 instead of L17. Meh. Having a 13-level Cleric progression by L17 MORE than makes up for the 3-level delay.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-04, 11:06 AM
Meh. Having a 13-level Cleric progression by L17 MORE than makes up for the 3-level delay.
It really doesn't. You're still quite powerful, but Wizard 20 is much more so.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-04, 11:35 AM
It really doesn't. You're still quite powerful, but Wizard 20 is much more so.

Let's look at this:

Raw power at level 20.

Wizard 3 / Archivist 1 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Wizard + 6

Now, you can be either:
Wizard 20

or

Wizard 19 / Archivist 11

The latter is better.

without EE:

Wizard 17 / Archivist 13

That is better than most wizard 20 builds, just due to the added versatility combos.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-05-04, 11:48 AM
Let's look at this:

Raw power at level 20.

Wizard 3 / Archivist 1 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Wizard + 6

Now, you can be either:
Wizard 20

or

Wizard 19 / Archivist 11

The latter is better.

without EE:

Wizard 17 / Archivist 13

That is better than most wizard 20 builds, just due to the added versatility combos.

This is true, but Wizard 2/Master Specialist X/Incantatrix Y/Whatever else floats your boat Z is still better than effective Wizard 17/Archivist 13. Although, to be fair, effective Wizard 17/Archivist 13 is pretty awesome, as you can basically afford to leave slots open for niche spells once you hit about ECL 10, earlier with Wizard 3/Archivist 1 entry.

Pluto
2010-05-04, 12:03 PM
This is true, but Wizard 2/Master Specialist X/Incantatrix Y/Whatever else floats your boat Z is still better than effective Wizard 17/Archivist 13.
I like that you use Incantatrix as a measuring stick.

gbprime
2010-05-04, 12:07 PM
Wizard 3 / Archivist 1 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Wizard + 6

I'm missing something. What feat/feature lets the archivist qualify at 1 instead of 3 ?

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-05-04, 12:10 PM
I like that you use Incantatrix as a measuring stick.

Hey, even a meter stick can measure out a kilometer given enough time!:smalltongue:

To be fair, I was going to use Malconvoker initially, but that seemed a bit specialized for what I was going for.


I'm missing something. What feat/feature lets the archivist qualify at 1 instead of 3 ?

Sanctum Spell will get you there.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-04, 12:12 PM
{snip}
He specified Cleric 3/Wizard 3 entry. My point, I believe, stands.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-04, 12:28 PM
Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Theurge 10/Archivist 4 would be better (IMHO) than taking Wizard 4 for the last levels. For the simple fact that the Archivist gets Cleric & Druid spells... and can even get a few Wizard spells based off Cleric Domains!

Indon
2010-05-04, 12:34 PM
If your character's been keeping pace with the party well so far, then Mystic Theurge might make you more powerful than the rest of the party, because it is a significant increase in power compared to multiclass Wizard/Cleric.

If you're in the middle of the pack, you might turn out at the front. If you're at the front, you could end up substantially more powerful than the group. If you're lagging a bit, the PrC will help you keep up.

Talk with your DM and base your decision on how you're shaping up compared to the rest of the party, and how you're likely to continue shaping up as the game progresses.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-05-04, 12:39 PM
If your character's been keeping pace with the party well so far, then Mystic Theurge might make you more powerful than the rest of the party, because it is a significant increase in power compared to multiclass Wizard/Cleric.

If you're in the middle of the pack, you might turn out at the front. If you're at the front, you could end up substantially more powerful than the group. If you're lagging a bit, the PrC will help you keep up.

Talk with your DM and base your decision on how you're shaping up compared to the rest of the party, and how you're likely to continue shaping up as the game progresses.

Actually, if he's been keeping pace, as he levels and the challenges increase, he should remain at that pace. Unless the campaign has a large focus on endurance, he should still remain at roughly his current strength with both multitasking on being a wizard and aiding his comrades post combat. The action economy will prevent most MTs from dropping their slightly larger pool of spells in the same amount of time as a straight wizard or cleric.

Optimystik
2010-05-04, 12:57 PM
That is better than most wizard 20 builds, just due to the added versatility combos.

He said Cleric, not Archivist.

To benefit from those 13 levels of Cleric, you need at least 16 Wis to gain access to the 6th-level spells... then you need at least 19 Int for your Wizard side.

This necessitates either high point-buy, good stat rolls, or good gear... all of which a single-class Wizard could put to better use.

Indon
2010-05-04, 02:28 PM
Actually, if he's been keeping pace, as he levels and the challenges increase, he should remain at that pace. Unless the campaign has a large focus on endurance, he should still remain at roughly his current strength with both multitasking on being a wizard and aiding his comrades post combat. The action economy will prevent most MTs from dropping their slightly larger pool of spells in the same amount of time as a straight wizard or cleric.

True, but we're not comparing MT with straight Wizard or Cleric. We're comparing it with Wizard/Cleric.

MT is more powerful than Wizard/Cleric because it gets access to higher-level spells. It's not at the same rate as the pure, extremely potentially powerful Wizard or Cleric classes get it, but it's at a good rate.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-05-04, 02:49 PM
True, but we're not comparing MT with straight Wizard or Cleric. We're comparing it with Wizard/Cleric.

MT is more powerful than Wizard/Cleric because it gets access to higher-level spells. It's not at the same rate as the pure, extremely potentially powerful Wizard or Cleric classes get it, but it's at a good rate.

Yes, but how do both MT and Wizard/Cleric compare to the party in which said character exists? I was not arguing that MT wasn't more powerful than alternating wizard/cleric, but rather that using MT was not going to have any more of an impact on the overall party balance than just either being a straight X caster or however powerful his character currently is in relation to the rest of the party.

Afgncaap5
2010-05-04, 03:54 PM
As someone who recently made a character with the intent of playing a Mystic Theurge, I have to say that I'm definitely enjoying the various thoughts. :smallsmile:

My take on the issue: I've been loving it so far, even though I've not quite qualified for it yet.

I do have a question for the other readers, though: when you take a class that lets you advance in spells from a previous class, is there any particular reason why such classes can't be stackable? I've been looking around for a reason for why that shouldn't work, and I've been inviting my DM to look around for a reason for why it shouldn' work (sadly, we both have a habit of missing key sentences in the middle of rule texts so that we get big pictures but not finer details).

Because what I'd like to do is after getting Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 1 is look around at some other classes like the Magical Trickster from Complete Scoundrel or the Virtuoso from Song & Silence (my DM lets us use 3.0 books in 3.5 if we can access them.) The downside is that it'd make me drop down not 3 but 4 levels. The upside is that the non-spell benefits of those other classes could start to make up for it (the Magical Trickster's ability to spontaneously use a metamagic feat once per day can help overcome some of those problems since you don't need to prepare higher-level spell slots with it.)

But, again, this only works as long as I don't find a reason for why those stack, and I'm almost positive that there *should* be a reason for why it stacks.

Either way, though, considering the story in the game, I've been loving the progression to work my way up to the Theurge. The character's RP really makes it fit.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-04, 04:00 PM
Prestige Classes that offer "+1 to existing (arcane/divine/either) spellcasting class" do not have their own spellcasting progression. They therefore are not eligible targets for other Prestige Classes that offer the same. No, you cannot be Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 1/Whatever X and continue dual-progression.

Would be interesting if you could. Worth it? Certainly. Overpowered? I'm not so sure...

Optimystik
2010-05-04, 04:10 PM
I do have a question for the other readers, though: when you take a class that lets you advance in spells from a previous class, is there any particular reason why such classes can't be stackable? I've been looking around for a reason for why that shouldn't work, and I've been inviting my DM to look around for a reason for why it shouldn' work (sadly, we both have a habit of missing key sentences in the middle of rule texts so that we get big pictures but not finer details).


As DW said, PrCs like Mystic Theurge and Archmage do not have a spellcasting progression - they only continue that of a base class.

A PrC with a casting progression is one that gets spells on its own - like Sublime Chord or Ur-Priest.

Runestar
2010-05-04, 04:35 PM
MT is more powerful than Wizard/Cleric because it gets access to higher-level spells.

I thought we already established that a multiclassed spellcaster was utter rubbish and no one would ever enter it if not for the existence of dual-caster prcs such as mystic theurge? :smallamused:

So if MT did not exist, the problem could be worse, because everyone would then go pure spellcaster...:smalltongue:

Hawk7915
2010-05-04, 04:37 PM
Well OP, based on your post it appears the situation is that your DM suggested out-of-the-box Mystic Theurge, and you want the d6 HD since it seems underpowered to you. However, it seemed overpowered to your DM and another player and you got into a bit of an argument.

So the DM was okay with you taking Theurge. Then you should take it! You'll end up much, much more effective with levels in it, even without a d6 HD. Seriously, it's totally worth it now. Theurge is normally underpowered, but as a Wizard 4/Cleric 3 you are terribly underpowered, so this should get you back on par. A d6 hitdie would be nice, but honestly that wouldn't "fix" the class. Armored casting (light, small shields, and medium armor at 10th) would be a good start, as would continued turn and familiar progression. But if your DM thinks Theurge is already too good and is against homebrew and other sources, this is your best bet.

Unless you want to just keep taking wizard levels, and use your 3 Cleric levels to heal people (probably with a Wand of Cure Light Wounds and a few Cure Moderate Wounds at the 2nd level slot). But at this point, Wizard 17/Cleric 3 is worse than Wizard 7/Cleric3/Theurge 10: the second build offers you 13th level divine casting and 7th level cleric spells so you an actually prepare Heal. All you lose for this incredible boon is two wizard bonus feats; in core only this is an amazing trade.

So yeah, if your DM is still okay with it, take Theurge and never look back.

Out of curiosity, what is the rest of your party? Core only, rogue, and what? Fighter and Ranger or something?

rubycona
2010-05-04, 05:41 PM
I had a mystic theurge that I played and absolutely loved. We had a full wiz in the party, but she was a blaster, and we were a pretty good level (level 12 or 13 I think?)

The best part of being a MT wasn't the high level spells I had. It was the fact that I was literally prepared for anything the DM threw at us, and was able to get buffs from all over the place (we used lots of books) that stacked. We had a 15 round major boss battle, and every single round, I cast 1-2 spells (go Divine Quicken! I think that's what it was called, where you give up turning attempts for metamagic)

Individually, I was pathetic, sure, if someone hit me (not likely, being as I was invis and all sorts of other please-don't-hit-me spells) I'd go splat in a heartbeat, sure I couldn't deal damage or whatever. But you need an unusual spell? I'm your woman!

By the time that boss battle was over (it was a campaign ender, it was Supposed to kill us) the sheer number of buffs and situationally advantageous magic that was flying around put us well above par. We pwned this guy that was 6 CRs over us

Divide by Zero
2010-05-04, 05:44 PM
We had a 15 round major boss battle

I think that's the deal. I've never seen an encounter that long except for high-level caster attrition battles, so then the MT's superior spells per day actually start to matter.

Optimystik
2010-05-04, 06:09 PM
I think that's the deal. I've never seen an encounter that long except for high-level caster attrition battles, so then the MT's superior spells per day actually start to matter.

More spells, yes - but they have shorter durations (lower CL), so it's a wash.

He also has weaker guns to bring to the fight, and lower save DCs due to MADness - either of which can actually contribute to the fight taking longer.

rubycona
2010-05-04, 06:55 PM
Actually, the fight took that long because it was a sequential summon sort of thing. Every time we killed 1, the next in the sequence was summoned the following round, at the start of the initiative, which typically gave us a couple of actions ahead of time. It was... I can't quite recall, I think 6 battles in a row, all ascending CR, ending with the last one 6 over us? A campaign ender, it was meant as a test to see how powerful we were, and we were supposed to die XD

As far as my CL being lower, I had practiced spellcaster (both of them, for wiz and clr, bringing my CL up to par). As far as MAD, we had generous point buy, so I was fine.

I'd recently traded in my monk (with Loads of houserules to bring up to par) for the MT, and if I still had the monk, we'd have been horribly owned. All of us contributed majorly. We knew approximately what we were going to be facing, so I had all my bazillion spells prepared for that kind of fight, so did the wiz, and during the course of the battle, I ate through all but a few, I think maybe 3-4 left. Wiz used less spells, partially because of the divine quickening I was doing, and partially because she kept holding her spells for opportune moments, leaving the buffing/controlling to me. The druid did well, too, and damn, was the fighter-archer a bloody christmas tree XD

But man, did we ever burn our items there. It was a crazy epic fight, and it felt really nice knowing that they literally couldn't have done it without my MT. I, obviously, couldn't do squat without them, either, but knowing my other chars that I'd played would have ended with us dead... it was cool.

Edit: A note, give a party of 3 heavy casters (1 full wiz, 1 full druid, 1 MT) and a buffable buddy (go fighter of crazy buff!) several days warning, a recent restock on items, a handful of rounds just before the fight to start the buff-machine going, and they should be able to take out almost anything XD We didn't even lose a single character, not even the animal companion. Nearly so, mind you, but we won!