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View Full Version : Compromise on E6 - just thinking aloud



Altair_the_Vexed
2010-05-03, 06:13 AM
I like the lower power levels proposed in E6, but I think I'll miss the capacity for higher level magic that goes with stopping at 6th level.

No-one can teleport, the dead can't be raised, there are no walls of fire...
Certain higher level spells fit the idea of a magical world.

(This is just an abstract, to see what people at large think of my proposal. I'm going to be deliberately vague and avoid concretely defining anything here.)

The compromise idea I've come up with is this: Keep all 20 levels HD stop at 6th level Casters keep getting more spells per day, but... There are no 4th to 9th level spells (So a 20th level wizard gets 4 of each spell level up to 3rd, plus their INT bonus spells, per day) Certain non-combat spells of 4th level and higher become Rituals, available only through the discovery of ancient tomes and library research (as per 4th Ed Rituals). Restrict or remove some of the top level class features.

Examples of Rituals I'd want to allow: Heal, Raise Dead, Greater Restoration Animate Dead, Animate Object Control Weather Teleport Quest Permanence, Contingency
These would have slow casting times, an associated skill check, costed material components, and other such restrictions.

Why not just play E6?
Because there's a lot that can't be done in an E6 world. And because it's great fun to get more and more powerful - but the higher level spells are where the casters' power starts to really outstrip the mundane classes. So we keep our power levels relatively low: with only 6 HD each, a 10th level fighter can take on a 20th level fighter and expect to have a chance - while we let the characters get awesomer.

Why not just play RAW?
Because the mundane classes are left behind by the casters. Because the high levels of play are too powerful to be as fun as the lower levels. Because the perfect level of the game is about 4th-10th. Because I've been there and done that.

What do you want from us?
I just want to know what the boards think. If your DM was to run a game like this, would you enjoy it? Do you think any of these ideas are fundamentally wrong or too exploitable?

Thanks!

Ashtagon
2010-05-03, 07:11 AM
Bad move.

hp are one of the few toys that non-casters get, and you're taking that away from them.

You haven't restricted any of the spells either. That fireball spell will now reliably cripple a 20th level fighter, and a second will pretty much guarantee a kill.

As for your ritual list, animate dead is 3rd level (for clerics at least). Under e6, there's no particular reason why any high level spell can't be found as a ritual, subject to GM approval. You don't need to do any special rule change here.

But note that removing raise dead and the revolving door afterlife was one of the big reasons for creating e6. You're specifically undoing that aspect.

A better solution might be to play "e8" or "e10", with your same restriction on spell levels 4-9.

Oh, and be sure to cap caster level at Hit Dice, otherwise you'll find low-level spells suddenly becoming surprisingly lethal.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-05-03, 07:11 AM
From what you've written, it's not quite clear how some things would work. Would characters continue to get better and better BAB and saves past 6th level? Would druids wildshaping continue to advance past 6th level?

Gan The Grey
2010-05-03, 07:18 AM
This won't really work as well as you think, and the changes are unnecessary.

1. One of your major complaints is that higher level spell effects don't occur in an E6 world, but then you decide to fix that by not allowing casters 4th through 9th level spells. Just like E6. Plus, the variant rules for Incantations are often touted as a good addition to E6 anyway.

2. One of the strong points of E6 is the ability to finally be able to build those highly feat intensive characters that you wouldn't otherwise be able to build in a traditional d20 game. Two separate 6th level + 10 rogues could be wildly different depending on their feat choices. You just don't really get that sort of variation with traditional classes, barring multiclassing and prestige classes. And prestige classes are already covered in E6 with the addition of prestige feats.

3. It won't take much for a level 20 fighter to completely invalidate a level 10, HD limit or no. First, a level 20 fighter attacks 4 times a round vs. the level 10's 2. He also hits roughly twice as often. And, with the proper feats, he can be basically unhittable by pumping his attack rating in AC.

4. It's still wuxia. Large numbers of attacks per round, continually increasing skill levels (fighter with like +30 or more to jump), increasingly devastating class abilities (sneak attack will get to the point where you can one shot a level 20 of just about any class), and high saves will ultimately mean that low level characters are just as ineffective against high levels as they are now.

5. Your modifications basically destroy E6's ability to represent a more balanced, easily prepared setting. In straight E6, I can stat up 15 to 20 different classes of various levels and be set for awhile, as even 6th level characters have to be wary of large numbers of low level peons. With your setup, you still have that unrealistic escalation that general d20 suffers from, and you have to prepare 20 levels of different encounters vs. 6 and some extra feats.

6. E6 is less about getting more numbers to add to a character sheet, and more about learning how to use what you've got in more creative, effective ways. It forces you and your players to think outside the box in terms of attacking a problem, and even how you run and fit into a world.

7. Straight E6 ROCKS. There is really no need to mess with it. Really, spend some time (a few days) thinking about how it will affect a campaign and you will start to realize how cool it is as presented. Plus, if you focus on the low-level mundane aspects of D&D long enough, when you finally do blast your players with a fireball, it will scare them. E6 is about resetting your expectations. If a DM continually raises the bar with new exciting monsters, spells, and magic items, players will slowly become bored, forcing the DM to again raise the bar.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-05-03, 07:49 AM
That's a lengthy rebuttal of my idea, Gan. :smallfrown:

Maybe I've missed some points about the E6 system.

As I understand it, you stop at Level 6, but can continue to gain more feats thereafter.
Some feats have level-dependent requirements that would make them unavailable to 6th level characters (I'm thinking Greater TWF, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialisation, Improved Precise Shot, Stunning Fist... not to mention certain item creation feats).

Is it normal practice to modify the prerequisites of these feats to let them be available to 6th level capped characters? Or are they just unavailable?

I've had a chance to look over the Incantations variant since it got brought up, and I guess that deals with my Ritual proposal.

Hmm...
Maybe E6 can do what I'm after with less alterations than I was thinking.
I guess, if I dig around, some of those top end class features that I was trying to cling on to could be turned into feats...

Gan The Grey
2010-05-03, 08:15 AM
That's a lengthy rebuttal of my idea, Gan. :smallfrown:

Maybe I've missed some points about the E6 system.

As I understand it, you stop at Level 6, but can continue to gain more feats thereafter.
Some feats have level-dependent requirements that would make them unavailable to 6th level characters (I'm thinking Greater TWF, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialisation, Improved Precise Shot, Stunning Fist... not to mention certain item creation feats).

Is it normal practice to modify the prerequisites of these feats to let them be available to 6th level capped characters? Or are they just unavailable?

I've had a chance to look over the Incantations variant since it got brought up, and I guess that deals with my Ritual proposal.

Hmm...
Maybe E6 can do what I'm after with less alterations than I was thinking.
I guess, if I dig around, some of those top end class features that I was trying to cling on to could be turned into feats...

Most people have a certain knee-jerk reaction when first confronted with E6. I can't tell you how much I read and how much I thought about it before I realized how absolutely AWESOME it is. You really have to look at all the aspects of the game that are generally ignored in a traditional game. Many, many feats that you would never think to take suddenly become much more useful. Low CR monsters suddenly have more meaning than just filler encounters or mooks.

You are right, though. Certain feats are just unobtainable, some for very good reasons. Since we don't have access to really high AC magic armor, we don't want to allow melee characters to gain too many bonuses to hit. We also don't want all melee characters to have large amounts of attacks per round. Remember, in E6, only full base attack bonus classes and dual-wielders will have more than one attack per round. This helps to speed up combat. Faster play is another benefit to E6.

Also, you really want to think twice before allowing feats that would generally be outside the power range of a 6th level character. If the feat is too good, it doesn't become a choice to take it anymore. However, with a little thought, I don't see a problem with customizing high-level feats for low-level play. You just have to ensure they aren't TOO good.

Just as with feats, you have to be careful putting high level class abilities into an E6 game, as you may find yourself eliminating the choice aspect of feat acquisition. If the class ability is better than other feats, characters WILL take it if they can.

For an idea of feat modification, let me give you an example of one of my homebrew feat lines. All of these can only be taken once, and each stacks with the previous.

Toughness - Grants a character 3 HP.
Improved Toughness - PreReq. Toughness. Grants a character 1 x Level HP.
Greater Toughness - PreReq. Improved Toughness. Grants a character 2 x level HP.
Epic Toughness - PreReq. Greater Toughness. Grants a character 2 x number of Epic Feats HP. (Epic Feats are the feats you gain after level 6)

The way I see it, these are balanced against other feats because they are a feat line. At the end, a character will gain quite a large amount of extra HP, sort of going against the whole limited HP idea of E6, but really, a character who chooses to take these 4 feats vs. other feats has chosen to make longevity their specialty.

If you really want to talk about E6 at length, drop me an email with ideas/questions.