3.5 Martial Classes: The Shrewd Tactician, the Noble Guardian and the Proud Warrior

[Lix Lorn]

So... yeah. EVERY homebrewer and their mother has tried it... so why not?
Three alternatives to the Fighter, one for each mental stat.

I feel that supernatural abilities aren’t out of place even on a martial class. In a world where magic is almost normal, even the most common of warriors will have it in their blood. And it’s bound to come out when they need it most.

Please read them, and say what you think.

Some qualifications:
For balance purposes, and qualifying for prestige classes and feats, their BAB is treated as it would be if they were a single class standard fighter. (BAB equal to their class level)

In a game using these three classes, the Fighter should not exist. These classes qualify as fighter levels for the purposes of feats and classes, such as Weapon Specialization.

Shrewd Tactician
‘You have two choices. You follow the plan, or I shoot you first.’
Aaron Ryou, Shrewd Tactician.

Background: Shrewd Tactician’s are the warriors who don’t know the way, don’t feel the way, but sit down with a cool drink and think it through. Their ability to plan battle tactics is astounding, impressing even those born to the task. Shrewd Tacticians tend to be of the higher classes, those with access to books on the subject and skilled tutors, although this is, like all of these guidelines, only a guideline.
Races: Shrewd Tacticians tend to be human, but can be of any race. They require an analytical outlook on life, making them rare among Orcs and other emotional races.
Other Classes: Shrewd Tacticians get on well with Wizards, and consider druids and Guardians reliable companions. They consider Sorcerers, Proud Warriors and Barbarians to be uncontrollable wild cards, and avoid working with them when possible.
Role: Shrewd Tacticians are suitable frontline warriors, but equally skilled as archers who plan from behind. They tend to rely on light armour and their impressive skills with a bow to strike down their enemies.
Shrewd Tacticians in the World: Shrewd Tacticians are commonly found as mercenaries, both hostile and benign. Many a traveller has been the victim of a perfectly executed ambush, and likewise many a noble war has ended with the triumphant king showering gifts upon a Tactician.
Inspiration: Fighters aren’t as simple as people think. Not everyone fights in the same way, or for the same reasons. Some fight for honour, or to hone their skills-others to show off.

Alignment: Any, commonly Lawful Neutral.
Hit Die: d10
Starting Gold: As fighter.
Starting Age: As fighter.
Class Skills: The Shrewd Tactician’s Class Skills (And the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st level-(4 + Int Modifier) x4
Skill Points per Level-4 + Int Modifier

NAME OF CLASS
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+2|Duck and Weave, Think First, Strike Second
2nd|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+3|Bonus Feat
3rd|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+3|Enhanced Tactics (+2)
4th|
+5|
+1|
+4|
+4|Draw and Fire
5th|
+6/+1|
+1|
+4|
+4|Perfect Aim
6th|
+7/+2|
+2|
+5|
+5|Bonus Feat, Enhanced Tactics (+3)
7th|
+8/+3|
+2|
+5|
+5|Target Analysis
8th|
+10/+5|
+2|
+6|
+6|
9th|
+11/+6/+1|
+3|
+6|
+6|Enhanced Tactics (+4)
10th|
+12/+7/+2|
+3|
+7|
+7|Deceit Unto Death, Bonus Feat
11th|
+13/+8/+3|
+3|
+7|
+7|Greater Perfect Aim
12th|
+15/+10/+5|
+4|
+8|
+8|Greater Target Analysis, Enhanced Tactics (+5)
13th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+4|
+8|
+8|Careful Study
14th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+4|
+9|
+9|Bonus Feat
15th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+5|
+9|
+9|Enhanced Tactics (+6)
16th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+5|
+10|
+10|Battle Plan
17th|
+21/+16/+11/+6|
+5|
+10|
+10|Mighty Target Analysis
18th|
+22/+17/+12/+7|
+6|
+11|
+11|Knowledge is Power, Bonus Feat, Enhanced Tactics (+7)
19th|
+23/+18/+13/+8|
+6|
+11|
+11|Grand Battle Plan
20th|
+25/+20/+15/+10|
+6|
+12|
+12|Greater Deceit Unto Death[/table]

BAB: A Shrewd Tactician, due to their intensive combat training and little else, is unequalled in combat. Their Base Attack Bonus is equal to five quarters of their class level.
However, for the purposes of Prestige Class Prerequisites, they are treated as if their BAB equalled their class level.

Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: A Shrewd Tactician is proficient with all armour and shields (Including Tower Shields), as well as all simple and martial weapons, and one exotic weapon of their choice. However, some of their class abilities will not work in heavy armour, due to the loss of speed and agility.

Duck and Weave: A Shrewd Tactician avoids danger with ease, planning strategies well in advance to always be where the attacks aren’t. They add their Intelligence bonus to their AC, as long as they're not wearing heavy armour.

Think First, Strike Second: A Shrewd Tactician 1th level or higher who has time to study their opponents can strike for bonus damage. If they spend one standard action studying an opponent, they can deal bonus damage. This damage is equal to 1d6, plus an additional 1d6 for each three class levels they possess. This bonus damage is applied to all attacks they make on that target for a number of rounds equal to their Intelligence modifier. This damage is precision damage.

This otherwise works like the Rogue’s Sneak Attack ability.

Bonus Feats: At 2nd level, and every fourth level after, a Shrewd Tactician gains a Bonus Feat. These feats are chosen from the Fighter Bonus Feat list.

Enhanced Tactics (Ex): A Shrewd Tactician of at least third level is skilled at using clever, sneaky or underhand tactics to win battles. They gain the Combat Expertise feat, if they do not already have it. If they do not qualify for this feat, they do not gain the feat. If they later qualify, they gain the feat as a bonus feat then. In addition, when using a feat such as Improved Trip, Improved Grapple, or any other feat that grants a special attack, with Combat Expertise as a prerequisite, they gain a +1 to all rolls involved in that special attack, plus an additional +1 for each three class levels they possess.

Draw and Fire: A Shrewd Tactician can swap weapons at a moments notice, firing their bow until their opponent is just in range before lashing out with a sword. At 4th level, a Shrewd Tactician gains Quick Draw and Point Blank Shot as bonus feats.

Perfect Aim: A Shrewd Tactician always strikes the spot he aims at. At 5th level, they deal additional dice of damage with their attacks. This bonus damage is equal to the base damage of the weapon. (1d12 for a Medium Greataxe, 2d6 for a Medium Greatsword) This is precision damage. However, this ability does not work in heavy armour.

At 11th level, this bonus damage is doubled. (So a Greataxe would deal 2d12 on top of it's standard damage, and a Greatsword 4d6)

Target Analysis: A Shrewd Tactician of at least 7th level always recognises their opponents weaknesses-and take advantage of it. Their attacks can deal either Cold, Fire, Electricity, Acid or their Standard damage type. Changing which type of damage they deal is a Swift action.

At 12th level, their attacks are treated as having the Frost, Flaming, Shocking, Corrosive or Sonic enhancement, matching the descriptor above. If they already do, then the bonus damage from that weapon ability is doubled to 2d6.

At 17th level, their attacks instead have the Icy Burst, Flaming Burst, Shocking Burst, Acidic Burst or Sonic Burst enhancements, matching the current descriptor above. If they already do, then the bonus damage from that weapon ability is doubled to 2d6, or 2d10 on a critical hit.

These weapon enhancements do not count towards the weapons total maximum.

Brain Over Brawns: A Shrewd Tactician of 9th level may add their Intelligence Modifier to their attack rolls.

At 15th level, they may also add their Intelligence modifier to their damage rolls.

Deceit Unto Death (Ex): As an attack action, a Shrewd Tactician of at least 10th level can attempt to end the battle by tricking and terrifying their opponents. He can only attempt this if his opponent has remaining hit points of no more than half his class level times ten, and is within range of his weapon.
A Shrewd Tactician is always aware of whether an enemy is vulnerable to this attack.

If the Shrewd Tactician succeeds on an Attack Roll using their highest BAB, the victim must make a Will save with DC equal to 10 + half the Shrewd Tactician’s Class level + their Intelligence Modifier, or they succumb to the tricks of the Tactician, opening them to a fatal strike. This ability does not work on creatures without discernable anatomies.

If this ability fails to slay the target, it may not be used again that day.

At twentieth level, The DC of this attack increases to Their Class level + their Intelligence Modifier. In addition, they may use the ability a second time after it fails. (Though after the attack has failed twice in one day, it’s unusable.)

Careful Study: A Shrewd Tactician of at least 13th level can work out their opponents weaknesses with just a few moments study. Their attacks penetrate all damage reduction other than epic.

Battle Plan: At 16th level, a Shrewd Tactician has a plan for almost any circumstance. Both they and all allies within 5 feet/class level gain a +1 morale bonus on all rolls.
At 19th level, this becomes a +2 bonus.

Knowledge Is Power: At 18th level, a Shrewd Tactician’s ability to study their foes comes into it’s own. By studying an opponent for a standard action, they may treat their weapons as having the applicable Bane ability until they study a different opponent. (This study will also activate Think First, Strike Second}

[Lix Lorn]

Noble Guardian
‘Why did I save the goblin? He needed help.’
Jonas Elheart, a Noble Guardian.

Background: Noble Guardians rely in instinct above all else. While some would think this the same as the willpower of the Proud Warrior, there is a subtle difference. While a Proud Warrior does what he wishes and forces reality out of his way, the Noble Guardian waits until he needs a miracle, and makes it himself.
The most common Noble Guardians are bodyguards or soldiers, seeking to aid people in need, but both selfish and evil Guardians exist, those who wish to protect only their own interests.
Races: Dwarves make excellent candidates for Noble Guardians, with a proclivity towards honour and a strong feeling of collective. Humans, as with almost all classes, are common due to their sheer variety. Elves are the least common: Their fondness of personal freedom and skill drives them more towards the Proud Warrior.
Other Classes: A Noble Guardian can get on with Druids most of the time, a mutual respect for life and a code binding them together. This is even more common with Paladins, who find Noble Guardians the most trustworthy of colleagues. Wizards and Clerics too can respect their skills, while both Sorcerers and Proud Warriors think they aren’t proactive enough.
Role: A Noble Guardian is another frontline character, but of a different flavour. He can stand in the middle of a combat, shattering enemies with mighty attacks, and shrugging off theirs with ease. He is the most likely to use a suit of heavy armour.
Noble Guardians in the World: As previously mentioned, Noble Guardians are excellent bodyguards, as well as soldiers. They can be relied upon more easily than either of the other two combat classes, and display a general unwillingness to accept defeat.
Inspiration: Fighters aren’t as simple as people think. Not everyone fights in the same way, or for the same reasons. Some fight for honour, or to hone their skills-others to show off.

Alignment : Lean towards Neutral Good, but any.
Hit Die: d12
Starting Gold: As fighter.
Starting Age: As fighter.
Class Skills: The Noble Guardian’s class skills (And the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st level-(4 + Int Modifier) x4
Skill Points per Level-4 + Int Modifier

NAME OF CLASS
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Angelic Might
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Bonus Feat
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Greater Angelic Might
4th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|Innate Power
5th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+1|
+1|Might Of Ages
6th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2| Bonus Feat
7th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+2|
+2|Knowledge Manifest
8th|
+10/+5|
+6|
+2|
+2|Guardian
9th|
+11/+6/+1|
+6|
+3|
+3|Never Give Up
10th|
+12/+7/+2|
+7|
+3|
+3|Shattering Strike, Bonus Feat
11th|
+13/+8/+3|
+7|
+3|
+3|Greater Might of Ages
12th|
+15/+10/+5|
+8|
+4|
+4|Greater Knowledge Manifest
13th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+8|
+4|
+4|Instinctive Power
14th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+9|
+4|
+4|Bonus Feat
15th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+9|
+5|
+5|Never Surrender
16th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+10|
+5|
+5|Disabling Strikes
17th|
+21/+16/+11/+6|
+10|
+5|
+5|Mighty Knowledge Manifest
18th|
+22/+17/+12/+7|
+11|
+6|
+6|Sixth Sense, Bonus Feat
19th|
+23/+18/+13/+8|
+11|
+6|
+6|Off Guard
20th|
+25/+20/+15/+10|
+12|
+6|
+6|Improved Shattering Strike[/table]

BAB: A Noble Guardian, due to their intensive combat training and little else, is unequalled in combat. Their Base Attack Bonus is equal to five quarters of their class level.
However, for the purposes of Prestige Class Prerequisites, they are treated as if their BAB equalled their class level.

Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: A Noble Guardian is proficient with all armour and shields (Including Tower Shields), as well as all simple and martial weapons, and one exotic weapon of their choice.

Angelic Might: A Noble Guardian relies on instinct and power to win their battles. At 1st level, they gain Power Attack as a bonus feat, even if they do not meet the prerequisites. At 3rd level, they gain Blind-Fight as a bonus feat, even if they do not meet the prerequisites.

Bonus Feats: At 2nd level, and every fourth level after, a Noble Guardian gains a Bonus Feat. These feats are chosen from the Fighter Bonus Feat list.

Innate Power: A Noble Guardian always feels the best route to victory-their attacks strike the weak point in the armour, or shatter bones through pure fluke. At 4th level, they gain their Wisdom bonus as an untyped bonus to all damage rolls.

Might of Ages: A Noble Guardian can strike with the force of a giant when people are in danger-whether it is them or others. At 5th level, they treat all their attacks as if it was dealt by a source one size category larger. At 11th level, this is increased to two size categories.

Knowledge Manifest: A Noble Guardian of at least 7th level always knows instinctively the best way to harm their opponents-and prepares for it. Their attacks can deal either Cold, Fire, Electricity, Acid or their Standard damage type. Changing which type of damage they deal is a swift action.

At 12th level, their attacks are treated as having the Frost, Flaming, Shocking, Corrosive or Sonic enhancement, matching the descriptor above. If they already do, then the bonus damage from that weapon ability is doubled to 2d6.

At 17th level, their attacks instead have the Icy Burst, Flaming Burst, Shocking Burst, Acidic Burst or Sonic Burst enhancements, matching the current descriptor above. If they already do, then the bonus damage from that weapon ability is doubled to 2d6, or 2d10 on a critical hit.

These weapon enhancements do not count towards the weapons total maximum.

Guardian: A Noble Guardian of at least 8th level is expert at drawing attention to themselves. Whenever an ally of the Noble Guardian within 5 feet/two class levels is attacked , the aggressor must make a will save with DC 15 + the Noble Guardians class level or move towards the Noble Guardian as quickly as possible, or attack them when in range. They must keep making will saves each new round they wish to attack another target, until they kill the Guardian. In addition, if any character other than the Noble Guardian attacks them, they may make a new Will Save.
Each Will Save after the first gives a cumulative +2 modifier.

Never Give Up, Never Surrender A Noble Guardian of at least 9th level refuses to lay down and die. They gain DR/- equal to their Wisdom modifier.

Starting at 15th level, they may choose to add their Wisdom Modifier (but only the modifier from their unmodified stats) to their hit points each time they gain a hit die, instead of their Con Modifier. This change may be made retroactively.

Shattering Strike (Ex): As an attack action, a Noble Guardian of at least 10th level can attempt to end the battle with one perfectly aimed strike. He can only attempt this if his opponent has remaining hit points of no more than half his class level times ten, and is within range of his weapon.
A Noble Guardian is always aware of whether an enemy is vulnerable to this attack.

If the Noble Guardian succeeds on an Attack Roll using their highest BAB, the victim must make a Fort save with DC equal to 10 + half the Noble Guardians Class level + their Wisdom Modifier, or have their spine shattered, their skull smashed, or in some other devastating way, slain. This ability does not work on creatures without discernable anatomies.

If this ability fails to slay the target, it may not be used again that day.

At twentieth level, The DC of this attack increases to Their Class level + their Wisdom Modifier. In addition, they may use the ability a second time after it fails. (Though after the attack has failed twice in one day, it’s unusable.)

Instinctive Power: A Noble Guardian of at least 13th level is capable of releasing their innate power in just the right way. Their attacks penetrate all damage reduction other than epic.

Disabling Strikes: A Noble Guardian of 16th level is skilled at weakening their opponents with every strike. Whenever they deal damage to a creature, it must make a Fortitude test with DC equal to the Noble Guardian’s class level + their Wisdom Modifier. If it fails, it takes one point of ability damage each to Strength, Dexterity and Constitution.
This ability doesn’t work on creatures that are immune to critical hits.

Sixth Sense: A Noble Guardian of 18th level can tell where their opponent is, even if they have no way of seeing them. They have Blindsight equal to 10 feet for each six levels they have in this class.

Off Guard: A Noble Guardian of 19th level hits with enough force to throw their opponents into dismay for a few moments. Any weapon they wield is treated as if it had the Coup De Grace psionic weapon ability.

[Lix Lorn]

Proud Warrior
‘So, there I am, trapped in a dungeon and surrounded by skeletons-when this boy, couldn’t be more than fifteen, drops in and decapitates seven with a single whirling strike. It was the most amazing thing I’ve ever seen.’
Eleanor Fields (later Eleanor Woods,) on the Proud Warrior Caellach Woods.

Background: Of the three most common classes of battle, the Proud Warrior is the one who most stands out. He is the man who shatters the skylight as he drops onto the evil half dragon lich’s head, the woman who bounces of the walls like rubber as she tears a small army apart, the cool witted ‘berserker’ who socks the enemy in the face with that oversized flail-every, single, time. His power is gained entirely from force of will. He knows he can win this.
And the universe, although it doesn’t actually revolve around him, is willing to bend a little.
Races: The most common Proud Warriors are humans and elves, and a little more than a few Spellscales. In particular, Dwarves tend to be rare among their numbers, though this is more a racial proclivity than any inability.
Other Classes : Proud Warriors are a natural ally of Sorcerers. Anyone used to imposing their will on the world through magic will feel the kinship of these natural warriors. However, Druids in particular tend to find them too unpredictable, while Paladins can find them untrustworthy.
Role: A Proud Warrior is a frontline combatant above all others. As long as things are going well, he can cut a huge swathe in even an army. But as soon as something goes wrong, whether it be the end of a Cleaving streak or a failed attempt at a spectacular finish, he’s left stranded. His skill lies in speed and ability, not in power or survivability. As long as he has the first word, he has a chance.
Proud Warriors in the World: Proud Warriors are common adventurers and thrill seekers. A ‘normal’ job like that of a guard or a soldier can be highly boring in their eyes, and they tend to seek intrigue and adventure.
Inspiration: Fighters aren’t as simple as people think. Not everyone fights in the same way, or for the same reasons. Some fight for honour, or to hone their skills-others to show off.

Alignment : Any, regularly Chaotic Good.
Hit Die: d10
Starting Gold: As fighter.
Starting Age: As fighter.
Class Skills: The Proud Warrior’s class skills (And the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st level-(4+ Int Modifier) x4
Skill Points per Level-4 + Int Modifier

NAME OF CLASS
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0|Whirling Death
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+0|Bonus Feat
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+1|Greater Whirling Death
4th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+1|Confident Strike
5th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+1|Storm of Steel
6th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+2|Bonus Feat
7th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+2|Belief Manifest
8th|
+10/+5|
+6|
+6|
+2|Pounce
9th|
+11/+6/+1|
+6|
+6|
+3|Flourish
10th|
+12/+7/+2|
+7|
+7|
+3|Bonus Feat, Grand Finale
11th|
+13/+8/+3|
+7|
+7|
+3|Greater Storm of Steel
12th|
+15/+10/+5|
+8|
+8|
+4|Greater Belief Manifest
13th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+8|
+8|
+4|Blade of Will
14th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+9|
+9|
+4|Bonus Feat
15th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+9|
+9|
+5|Great Flourish
16th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+10|
+10|
+5|Heroic Skill
17th|
+21/+16/+11/+6|
+10|
+10|
+5|Mighty Belief Manifest
18th|
+22/+17/+12/+7|
+11|
+11|
+6|Executioner, Bonus Feat
19th|
+23/+18/+13/+8|
+11|
+11|
+6|Performer
20th|
+25/+20/+15/+10|
+12|
+12|
+6|Improved Grand Finale[/table]

BAB: A Proud Warrior, due to their intensive combat training and little else, is unequalled in combat. Their Base Attack Bonus is equal to five quarters of their class level.
However, for the purposes of Prestige Class Prerequisites, they are treated as if their BAB equalled their class level.

Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: A Proud Warrior is proficient with all armour and shields (Including Tower Shields), as well as all simple and martial weapons, and one exotic weapon of their choice. However, their style lends itself to a light skirmisher. Some of their class abilities will not work in medium or heavy armour.

Whirling Death: A Proud Warrior is always moving, relying on speed and skill to take down their enemies. At 1st level, they gain Cleave as a bonus feat, even if they do not meet the prerequisites. At 3rd level, they gain Greater Cleave as a bonus feat, even if they do not meet the prerequisites.

Bonus Feats: At 2nd level, and every fourth level after, a Proud Warrior gains a Bonus Feat. These feats are chosen from the Fighter Bonus Feat list.

Confident Strike: At 4th level, a Proud Warrior relies on their self belief to guide their attacks. They receive their Charisma bonus as an untyped bonus to all attack rolls. This ability does not work in medium or heavy armour.

Storm of Steel: At 5th level, a Proud Warrior’s speed has greatly enhanced. In any round where they make at least one attack on their turn, they may make a single additional bonus attack at their highest base attack bonus. This ability does not work in medium or heavy armour.
(This means that you gain additional attacks when charging, when using a Standard action to attack, when making a full attack, when using Spring Attack. You do NOT get another set of bonus attacks on AoOs, cleave attempts...)

At 11th level, this bonus increases to two additional attacks.

Belief Manifest: A Proud Warrior of at least 7th level has total belief that they can harm their opponents-and reality seems to go along with them. Their attacks can deal either Cold, Fire, Electricity, Acid or their Standard damage type. Changing the type of damage dealt is a swift action.

At 12th level, their attacks are treated as having the Frost, Flaming, Shocking, Corrosive or Sonic enhancement, matching the descriptor above. If they already do, then the bonus damage from that weapon ability is doubled to 2d6.

At 17th level, their attacks instead have the Icy Burst, Flaming Burst, Shocking Burst, Acidic Burst or Sonic Burst enhancements, matching the current descriptor above. If they already do, then the bonus damage from that weapon ability is doubled to 2d6, or 2d10 on a critical hit.

These weapon enhancements do not count towards the weapons total maximum.

Pounce: A Proud Warrior of at least 8th level is an expert at lightning fast assault. They gain the Pounce ability. (When making a charge, they may follow up with a full attack.)

Flourish: A Proud Warrior of 9th level is skilled in slaying their opponents in the most impressive way possible. These methods tend to be particularly lethal. The critical range of their weapons is increased by one. (This does stack with abilities such as Improved Critical, and is applied after them)

At 15th level, this is increased. The threat range is now increased by two.

Grand Finale (Ex): As an attack action, a Proud Warrior of at least 10th level can attempt to end the battle with a single devastating strike. He can only attempt this if his opponent has remaining hit points of no more than half his class level times ten, and is within range of his weapon.
A Proud Warrior is always aware of whether an enemy is vulnerable to this attack.

If the Proud Warrior succeeds on an Attack Roll using their highest BAB, the victim must make a Reflex save with DC equal to 10 + half the Proud Warrior’s Class level + their Charisma Modifier, or be decapitated, stabbed through the heart or in some other spectacular way, slain. This ability does not work on creatures without discernable anatomies.

If this ability fails to slay the target, it may not be used again that day.

At twentieth level, The DC of this attack increases to Their Class level + their Charisma Modifier. In addition, they may use the ability a second time after it fails. (Though after the attack has failed twice in one day, it’s unusable.)

Blade of Will: At 13th level, a Proud Warrior’s attacks cannot be stopped by any mortal force. Their attacks penetrate all damage reduction other than epic.

Heroic Skill At 16th level, a Proud Warrior’s mastery of the spectacular finish extends way beyond the normal. They may make critical hits even against creatures normally immune to this affect. Note that special abilities that normally trigger on a critical hit have no effect on these creatures unless they specifically say otherwise.

Executioner: At 18th level, the Proud Warrior’s skills are reaching their zenith. Their weapons are treated as having the Vorpal enhancement. This does not count towards the weapons maximum total enhancement bonus.

Performer: A Proud Warrior of at least 19th level is beautiful to watch in action. Whenever they fight, they may make a Perform (Dance) check. Any character that watches them fight and has an attitude of indifferent or better must make a will save with DC equal to the result of the Perform check, or have their attitude increased by one step. This may only ever improve the attitude of any given character by one stage.
In addition, they gain a +2 on Perform (Dance) checks.

[FlyingWhale]

A quick question, only because I need to go to work but still wanna know... Would these replace the martial classes? Because they would wipe the floor with the standards relentlessly... Anyway just wondering. The AB even goes up a good deal faster and higher. Well they seem like a "hero/antihero" class to me. Well they look good, just really strong.

[Lix Lorn]

They would replace Fighter, the others I don't know. They're intended to be strong, as from what I hear magic DOMINATES the metagame.

[Primal Fury]

C'mon Lix. Give them martial maneuvers. You know you want to. :smallwink:

[Lix Lorn]

Haven't got ToB
Besides, if you want to play a Maneuvres alternative to the Fighter... yuo play the Warblade. XD

[Jallorn]

Ok, this is cool. I only read the fluff, but these are awesome, might try one some time.

[Lix Lorn]

Why, thank you. ^_^

Tell me how it goes!

[Fortuna]

BAB +25?

Also, you can only get 4 iterative attacks from BAB alone. So that should be +25/+20/+15/+10. Even accepting the BAB +25, which I'm not.

[Lix Lorn]

Four iterative attacks, didn't know that.

Why not accept it?

[blueblade]

ahem...

what, no familiar? Weak...

Seriously, all you've done is piled more AB and damage. I stopped at the point where you gave the Shrewd Tactician an extra die of damage. So I'll be using a greatsword then?

BAB over 20 makes no mechanical sense. Give them Kensai style damage bonuses if you must, but not BAB. And replacing something like flaming with burst is an odd move at best. burst is for crit based builds.

[Lix Lorn]

That's really not 'All i've done.' If you're only going to look at three abilities, none of which are the important ones, why even bother talking at all?

I admit, that's a good point with the greatsword. Maybe if I make it add dice equal to the weapons base damage...

Why does BAB over 20 make no mechanical sense?
Flaming Burst just seemed the logical enhancement to Flaming. (Shrug)

[ForzaFiori]

ahem...

what, no familiar? Weak...

Seriously, all you've done is piled more AB and damage. I stopped at the point where you gave the Shrewd Tactician an extra die of damage. So I'll be using a greatsword then?

BAB over 20 makes no mechanical sense. Give them Kensai style damage bonuses if you must, but not BAB. And replacing something like flaming with burst is an odd move at best. burst is for crit based builds.

Burst is just the next in the chain. It's not like it's taking away damage. It'll do they same amount as it used to, its just that now, when you crit, you do even more.

[Lix Lorn]

(nods)
Is there something that you think would make more sense than Flaming Burst for that ability?

[blueblade]

Lix Lorne, I apologise, my last mail was a bit harsh. I would say that the flavor and intent for these classes is fairly cool. But the abilities you've given them are all over the place, seems like they've been plucked out of whatever you thought would be fun. Hence my LW reference (not sure anyone would get that).


BAB>20 is not cool because no other class anywhere has it and there are no mechanics for deal with it. You are only supposed to get 4 iterative attacks with a single weapon, which is the only function of BAB.
Burst is not an enhancement of Flaming. It takes effect only on criticals
The manifest abilities are all identical, and all extremely powerful.
Again, capstone abilities are basically all the same, just differing saves, and kind of kills flavour (esp for the noble champion)
Vorpal is crazily powerful, especially if I go down the path of getting high numbers of attacks.
Coup De Grace is not a weapon ability. Do you mean your opponent is always treated as helpless?
Think First, Strike Second is more powerful than the capstone for the class
Flourish - Abilities stacking crit ranges were nerfed in 3.5 for a reason


My bigger issue is that mechanically, you've created 20 level classes with almost no flexibility, and all of them are kind of the same anyway.

[blueblade]

Burst is just the next in the chain. It's not like it's taking away damage. It'll do they same amount as it used to, its just that now, when you crit, you do even more.

Forza, the way I'm reading their attacks instead have the Icy Burst, suggests that the burst ability replaces the previous ability.

[Lix Lorn]

Lix Lorn, I apologise, my last mail was a bit harsh.
Apologies make everything better. ^_^[B]
I would say that the flavor and intent for these classes is fairly cool.
[B]Thanks!
But the abilities you've given them are all over the place, seems like they've been plucked out of whatever you thought would be fun.
Really? I was trying to give them particular themes: Shrewd Tactician I have to admit is easily the LEAST cohesive.
Hence my LW reference (not sure anyone would get that).
What's LW?

BAB>20 is not cool because no other class anywhere has it and there are no mechanics for deal with it. You are only supposed to get 4 iterative attacks with a single weapon, which is the only function of BAB.
I reduced it to 4 iterative attacks. Though, BAB is usedto hit things more easily. I was trying to find something that would make them clearly the best martial classes, and it seemed logical. Why would you need special mechanics to deal with it?
Burst is not an enhancement of Flaming. It takes effect only on criticals.

Flaming Burst
A flaming burst weapon functions as a flaming weapon that also explodes with flame upon striking a successful critical hit.

Emphasis Mine.
The manifest abilities are all identical, and all extremely powerful.
Really powerful? A +1 weapon ability at level 12? :smallconfused:
Again, capstone abilities are basically all the same, just differing saves, and kind of kills flavour (esp for the noble champion)
Okay, what do you recommend I do?
Vorpal is crazily powerful, especially if I go down the path of getting high numbers of attacks.
Yes. I know. (evil grin)
Coup De Grace is not a weapon ability. Do you mean your opponent is always treated as helpless?
Psionic Weapon ability. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#coupdeGrace)
Think First, Strike Second is more powerful than the capstone for the class.
Really? What if I increase it to a full round action, then you can't just halve your attacks for huge damage?
Flourish - Abilities stacking crit ranges were nerfed in 3.5 for a reason.
I know. I have met no-one who likes this. Therefore MY things stack. (To a point.)
My bigger issue is that mechanically, you've created 20 level classes with almost no flexibility, and all of them are kind of the same anyway.
Okay. Any advice, abilities or things to improve cohesion or adherance to flavour?
Now we are here with caramelladansen!

[blueblade]

ok, I made a few mistakes too, my bad.


What makes the manifest abilities dangerous is not just the +1, +2 weapon enhancement. It's the fact that it changes automatically to whatever deals the most damage. In my experience, what makes you powerful in DnD is versatility, not raw damage. and you've effectively created fighters that cannot be gimped. Same goes the L13 power, which effectively overcomes all DR 7 levels earlier than should be possible.
I stand correct on the CDG weapon ability (but you could be clearer). Still v.powerful.


I'd say you've given each class 6-8 very powerful abilities, many of which are the same across all 3. My advice is to tone this down to 3-4 abilities per class. Or merge the three classes into one, but with 3 different paths (should still not have as many of these high-end abilities). Beyond that, not sure how much more I can help, I really think you should go back to the drawing board a little, not a little tweak here or there.

Can anyone else critique (or critique my critique)?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Class Skills: The Shrewd Tactician’s Class Skills (And the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Ride (Dex), Search (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st level-(2 + Int Modifier) x4
Skill Points per Level-2 + Int Modifier

You've made a melee class without Spot and Listen as class skills, and with only 4+Int skill points? Tsk tsk...I thought we'd have learned better by now. :smallwink: More seriously, I think all classes should really have those two as class skills and no fewer than 4+Int points; might want to make that change to the Proud Warrior as well.


Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: A Shrewd Tactician is proficient with all armour and shields (Including Tower Shields), as well as all simple and martial weapons, and one exotic weapon of their choice.

The exotic weapon is a nice touch.


Draw and Fire: A Shrewd Tactician can swap weapons at a moments notice, firing their bow until their opponent is just in range before lashing out with a sword. At 1st level, a Shrewd Tactician gains Quick Draw as a bonus feat. At 3rd level, they gain Point Blank Shot as a bonus feat.
My image of this class is irrevocably of a bow. I know that someone might not want to use it as such, what could I use instead of PBS?

Regarding PBS, it affects all ranged weapons, so whether they use a bow or not it's a good enough choice.


Perfect Aim: A Shrewd Tactician always strikes the spot he aims at. At 5th level, they deal additional dice of damage with their attacks. This bonus damage is equal to the base damage of the weapon. (1d12 for a Medium Greataxe, 2d6 for a Medium Greatsword) This is precision damage, and does not apply to creatures without discernable anatomies, or creatures immune to critical hits.

You can leave out the bolded part, since that's part of the definition of precision damage, but it's not a big deal.


Target Analysis: A Shrewd Tactician of at least 7th level always recognises their opponents weaknesses-and take advantage of it. Their attacks always deal either Cold, Fire, Electricity, Acid or their Standard damage type, whichever would deal most damage.

At 12th level, their attacks are treated as having the Frost, Flaming, Shocking, Venom or Sonic enhancement, matching the descriptor above. If they already do, the bonus damage is doubled.
(Treat Venom and Sonic as the same as Frost or Flaming, but for Acid and Sonic damage respectively.)

At 17th level, their attacks instead have the Icy Burst, Flaming Burst, Shocking Burst, Acidic Burst or Sonic Burst enhancements. If they already do, the bonus damage is doubled.
(Acidic Burst and Sonic Burst are the Acidic and Sonic variations on Icy or Flaming Burst)

I'd have the Tactician have to switch damage types as a swift action, myself. It's not having the right damage type on hand that I take issue with, it's that other abilities allowing you to use multiple damage types either only let you to attack once in a round or require out-of-combat meditation. Requiring an action to switch it would make it slightly more plausible.


Think First, Strike Second: A Shrewd Tactician of 8th level or higher who has time to study their opponents can strike for bonus damage. If they spend one standard action studying an opponent, they can deal bonus damage. This damage is equal to one dice per their class level divided by three.

This otherwise works like the Rogue’s Sneak Attack ability.

A standard action for up to 6d6 bonus damage on the next round (I assume, since a duration isn't specified)? I'd at least have it last a few rounds, say equal to his Int or Wis mod.


Deceit Unto Death (Ex): As an attack action, a Shrewd Tactician of at least 10th level can attempt to end the battle by tricking and terrifying their opponents. He can only attempt this if his opponent has remaining hit points of no more than half his class level times ten, and is within range of his weapon.
A Shrewd Tactician is always aware of whether an enemy is vulnerable to this attack.

The victim must make a Will save with DC equal to the Shrewd Tactician’s Class level + their Intelligence Modifier, or they succumb to the tricks of the Tactician, opening them to a fatal strike. This ability does not work on creatures without discernable anatomies. This ability does not require an attack roll.

If this ability fails to slay the target, it may not be used again that day.

At twentieth level, The DC of this attack increases to 10 + their Class level + their Intelligence Modifier. In addition, they may use the ability a second time after it fails. (Though after the attack has failed twice in one day, it’s unusable.)

This should require an attack roll, if only because a fatal attack without an attack doesn't really make sense.


Battle Plan: At 16th level, a Shrewd Tactician has a plan for almost any circumstance. Both they and their allies gain a +1 morale bonus on all rolls.
At 19th level, this becomes a +2 bonus.

This should specify a radius within which it applies.


Knowledge Manifest: A Noble Guardian of at least 7th level always knows instinctively the best way to harm their opponents-and prepares for it. Their attacks always deal either Cold, Fire, Electricity, Acid or their Standard damage type, whichever would deal most damage.

At 12th level, their attacks are treated as having the Frost, Flaming, Shocking, Venom or Sonic enhancement, matching the descriptor above. If they already do, the bonus damage is doubled.
(Treat Venom and Sonic as the same as Frost or Flaming, but for Acid and Sonic damage respectively.)

At 17th level, their attacks instead have the Icy Burst, Flaming Burst, Shocking Burst, Acidic Burst or Sonic Burst enhancements. If they already do, the bonus damage is doubled.
(Acidic Burst and Sonic Burst are the Acidic and Sonic variations on Icy or Flaming Burst)

See comment on the Tactician's ability.


Guardian: A Noble Guardian of at least 8th level is expert at drawing attention to themselves. Whenever an ally of the Noble Guardian within 5 feet/two class levels is attacked , the aggressor must make a will save with DC 15 + the Noble Guardians class level or move towards the Noble Guardian as quickly as possible, or attack them when in range. They must keep making will saves each new round they wish to attack another target, until they kill the Guardian.

This is a bit too effective. I'd grant the affected creature a new save whenever a creature other than the Guardian attacks it, and a cumulative +2 bonus on each save.


Starting at 15th level, they may also add their Wisdom Modifier (but only the modifier from their unmodified stats) to their hit points each time they gain a hit die.

I'd make this the higher of Wis or Con, not both; hit point inflation is a big enough problem that even a tank shouldn't be adding a primary ability modifier to HP on top of Con.


Shattering Strike (Ex): As an attack action, a Noble Guardian of at least 10th level can attempt to end the battle with one perfectly aimed strike. He can only attempt this if his opponent has remaining hit points of no more than half his class level times ten, and is within range of his weapon.
A Noble Guardian is always aware of whether an enemy is vulnerable to this attack.

The victim must make a Fort save with DC equal to the Noble Guardians Class level + their Wisdom Modifier, or have their spine shattered, their skull smashed, or in some other devastating way, slain. This ability does not work on creatures without discernable anatomies. This ability does not require an attack roll.

If this ability fails to slay the target, it may not be used again that day.

At twentieth level, The DC of this attack increases to 10 + their Class level + their Wisdom Modifier. In addition, they may use the ability a second time after it fails. (Though after the attack has failed twice in one day, it’s unusable.)

See comment on the Tactician's ability.


Sixth Sense: A Noble Guardian of 19th level can feel attacks before they strike. They add their Wisdom Modifier to their AC.

This comes way too late to matter. Move this up to low levels, and move Off Guard up to 19th.


Heroic Skill At 16th level, a Proud Warrior’s mastery of the spectacular finish extends way beyond the normal. They may make critical hits even against creatures normally immune to this affect. (Although the Vorpal enhancement is not necessarily fatal against other creatures)

Any special abilities that trigger on crits should still have no effect on crit-immune creatures.


Performer: A Proud Warrior of at least 19th level is beautiful to watch in action. Any character that watches them fight and has an attitude of indifferent or better will have their attitude increased by one step. This may only ever improve the attitude of any given character by one stage.
In addition, they gain a +2 on Perform (Dance) checks.

This should at least require a Will save, if you want to make it supernatural, or a Perform/Diplomacy check otherwise.

-------------------------------------------

Otherwise, these look good. Slightly haphazard theme-wise, but they're close enough to archetypes that I think they work.

[Lix Lorn]

Alright. In order:
blueblade, you're worried about over versatility with the Manifest ability. I was considering making them pick one and stick with it, but PairODice suggested just making it take an action or so to change. Does that sound a good compromise?
(Leaves that change for reply)

Spot and Listen. Okay. I'll have to add a couple more to Noble Guardian to make up for it.
Also, i put Tactician at 2+ because he has Int as his primary stat. Should I put that to four with the rest?

Thank you on the exotic weapon.

I was just worried, I didn't want to force people to use ranged weapons. :/

Ah. Okay. I'll remove it.

On the Swift Action, I'll probably do that. XD

You think it should last? Okay. (nods)

Hmm. I guess you're right. XD I'll make it need an attack roll.

A radius... ten feet per class level?

Okay. I made that ability from the ether, so I didn't know if it'd be balanced. I'll add that.

Right, I'll make it the higher of the two.

Okay, I'll swap the two.

Right. I'll add in that they don't get other crit based things. XD

I think a Perform check makes more sense.

Thank you. :smallredface:

[kintzo1]

Knowledge Manifest: A Noble Guardian of at least 7th level always knows instinctively the best way to harm their opponents-and prepares for it. Their attacks always deal either Cold, Fire, Electricity, Acid or their Standard damage type, whichever would deal most damage.

At 12th level, their attacks are treated as having the Frost, Flaming, Shocking, Venom or Sonic enhancement, matching the descriptor above. If they already do, the bonus damage is doubled.
(Treat Venom and Sonic as the same as Frost or Flaming, but for Acid and Sonic damage respectively.)

At 17th level, their attacks instead have the Icy Burst, Flaming Burst, Shocking Burst, Acidic Burst or Sonic Burst enhancements. If they already do, the bonus damage is doubled.
(Acidic Burst and Sonic Burst are the Acidic and Sonic variations on Icy or Flaming Burst)

These weapon enhancements do not count towards the weapons total maximum.



Could you explain this a little more? I don't quite understand how or what damage is doubled. Especially, when it comes to the burst techniques at 17th level.

I also liked what PairO'Dice Lost said about making it a swift action to switch between all the different types.

Overall, I love the Noble Guardian class and considering playing it! So, if you could just look back over it and clear some things up with more examples or more fluff. :smallsmile:

Thanks, and GOOD WORK!

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Also, i put Tactician at 2+ because he has Int as his primary stat. Should I put that to four with the rest?

Even with Int as a primary stat, 4+Int should be fine; the "important Int -> lower skills" thing should only really apply to casters, who can make up for lack of skill points in other ways. The Warblade has 4+Int skill points with Int as a primary ability, so the Tactician can too.


A radius... ten feet per class level?

Hmm. Probably a bit much; most auras top out at 30 or 60 feet. Five feet per level would be better.


Could you explain this a little more? I don't quite understand how or what damage is doubled. Especially, when it comes to the burst techniques at 17th level.

Let's say you pick flaming. It normally deals +1d6 fire damage. What the "double damage" part is referring to is that if you choose for the base damage of your attack to be fire already, it deals +2d6 instead.

[kintzo1]

Let's say you pick flaming. It normally deals +1d6 fire damage. What the "double damage" part is referring to is that if you choose for the base damage of your attack to be fire already, it deals +2d6 instead.

So say I have a longsword. And it does the flaming attribute for a particular enemy. A longsword by itself does 1d8 with the flame attribute it will add 1d6, and with this double damage it will do 2d6?

If that's true then why not do [1d8 + (1d6)x2]?

-"2d6" and "double damage" doesn't seem to be equivalent to me.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

So say I have a longsword. And it does the flaming attribute for a particular enemy. A longsword by itself does 1d8 with the flame attribute it will add 1d6, and with this double damage it will do 2d6?

If that's true then why not do [1d8 + (1d6)x2]?

-"2d6" and "double damage" doesn't seem to be equivalent to me.

It is doing 1d8+2d6. It says the bonus damage is doubled, which in this case is +1d6 -> +2d6.

[Lix Lorn]

Pair'ODice is right. How would I clarify that? 'If the weapon already has this ability, it stacks. (Eg. will do 2d6 additional fire damage, rather than the standard 1d6)'

Okay, 4+int.

5feet/level, right.

And I'll make it a swift action.

[Jallorn]

With Think First Strike Second, you don't specify what size die. I don't understand why you explain the full ability then say it works like SA. Also, you should probably include a damage dice progression in the table.

[Lix Lorn]

Oops, it should be d6. I'll change that.

Mainly for things such as 'not creatures immune to critical hits', and so it can arguably be improved by SA feats, or used as a prerequisite.

Essentially? To make the table neater. :/

[Roc Ness]

Hmm: Also regarding Think First, Strike Second. Does it apply to all creatures of a species/creature type, or only to the specific creature that was studied?

EDIT: Ditto this question with Knowledge is Power.

[lesser_minion]

I've only looked at the Shrewd Tactician so far, but here's what I think:

Overall, it's not bad. It does something, and it's at least semi-competent at it. I don't see anything on the surface that's clearly overpowered. However, there are issues:

Firstly, there's very little scope for personalisation. The only places where you get to pick a feature are the ones where you gain bonus feats. The class also doesn't play well when multi-classing, not even with its two siblings.

Secondly, you have a few abilities that aren't entirely appropriate, and in some cases seem like their sole purpose is to put an entry in the special column. Specifically:
Duck and Weave. You can wear heavy armour, so this isn't compensating for anything. Brains over Brawn, Greater Brains over Brawn: These are unnecessary and seem to come out of nowhere. Battle Plan: This doesn't do much.


Thirdly, the class doesn't get enough early on -- at first level you get a bonus feat that's barely useful. You could easily hand it both Quick Draw and Point Blank Shot as first-level bonus feats, and it still wouldn't be much.

Fourth, you don't gain anything significant that will help you outside of a fight.

There are some bits I really liked -- in particular, I liked the way you seem to have handled the base attack bonus increase. You're potentially handing out an early ticket to quite a few feats, but I don't think it's likely to be an issue, since several of them you won't have enough feat slots for (and the vast majority of them require Weapon Specialisation, which you can't qualify for).

From what I've read so far, here's what I'd recommend:

Look into making the three classes play better with each other when multiclassing, or make a single class that can be built as any one of the three, and gets some benefits of its own (this gives you a chance to cover the non-combat stuff that's missing at the moment).
Move Think, Then Strike to first level, with +1d6 damage, plus an additional d6 per three class levels.
Scrap medium and heavy armour proficiency, and move Duck and Weave to 1st or 2nd level.
Scrap Brains over Brawn and its upgrade.
Make Battle Plan more interesting.
Look into making some of these abilities available earlier.


Other than that, you've done a decent job. I hope that didn't come across as too harsh.

[Lix Lorn]

Only the specific creature, for both.

Thanks.
Hmm, you are right... How exactly can I make it more personalisable, and more multiclass-friendly?

The adjustments I can agree with doing. In fact, it might help them be distinct. I'll admit I tried too hard to push Shrewd Tactician into fitting with the others.

What IS there that I can do outside of a feat?

Think F, SS to first level makes sense. So does Duck and Weave and no heavy armour.

Brains Over Brawn...yeah, okay.


There are some bits I really liked -- in particular, I liked the way you seem to have handled the base attack bonus increase. You're potentially handing out an early ticket to quite a few feats, but I don't think it's likely to be an issue, since several of them you won't have enough feat slots for (and the vast majority of them require Weapon Specialisation, which you can't qualify for).
Wow, someone who likes the BAB. XD
Actually, I had DMs say that the boosted BAB SHOULDN'T count for feats and prestige classes, as it's often used as a level limitation. Maybe count it for feats, but not for classes?
Also, as they'd replace the fighter, these classes WOULD have access to Weapon Specialisation. Not that it's meant to be very good.

[lesser_minion]

We looked at it on the IRC, and since the BAB doesn't get boosted until 11th level, you're unlikely to get an early ticket into any PrCs, and we couldn't find any feats where it would matter.

So aside from 'principle', there's no real argument against an irregular base attack bonus progression.

[Lix Lorn]

It get's boosted every fourth level. The progression is 5/4.

[lesser_minion]

It get's boosted every fourth level. The progression is 5/4.

Alright, it seems like I misread it.

Yeah, I'd suggest changing it so that it's 1:1 up to tenth level and then 3:2 after that -- that basically dodges any early qualification issues that might come up with PrCs (and we're pretty sure that there won't be any such issues with feats).

[Lix Lorn]

That's... confusing...

[lesser_minion]

That's... confusing...

Not especially. Just add a note to the table explaining that their base attack progression becomes irregular at 11th level.

[Tinydwarfman]

Well I'm not a huge fan of the classes, but w00t for Iron Heroes BAB!

[Lix Lorn]

I guess.

Iron Heroes bab?

[Tinydwarfman]

I guess.

Iron Heroes bab?

Iron Heroes gave it's primary melee classes "Excellent BAB" among other things to make up lack of magic items.

[Lix Lorn]

Aaah. Seems logical to me. XD

[Lix Lorn]

I shuffled some Shrewd Tactician abilities around, and added a new one that gives a bonus to special attacks. (like trip, sunder...)

I feel that's the weakest of the three. (Not as in bad, but as in badly made.)

Also, I'm wavering on the stacking critical on the Proud Warrior. Proud Warrior/Rapier/Improved Critical is a 12-20 critical range.

[lesser_minion]

A 12-20 crit range is not going to do any harm. If you're lucky, you might end up a tiny bit better off than a character choosing a weapon with more raw damage. That after spending a fortune on weapon enhancements.

[Lix Lorn]

Hmm, I dunno. Critical hits 2/5ths of the time.
Imagine putting something like Consumptive Burst on it. Plus, you get ____ Burst for free.

2/5ths of the time, you do 2d6+(2StrengthMod) piercing damage, +1d6+1d10 elemental, + 1d6 negative plus a critical hit.

You get six attacks by 17th level. AT LEAST two negative levels a turn.
For a +4 total weapon bonus.

[lesser_minion]

Hmm, I dunno. Critical hits 2/5ths of the time.
Imagine putting something like Consumptive Burst on it. Plus, you get ____ Burst for free.

2/5ths of the time, you do 2d6+(2StrengthMod) piercing damage, +1d6+1d10 elemental, + 1d6 negative plus a critical hit.

You get six attacks by 17th level. AT LEAST two negative levels a turn.
For a +4 total weapon bonus.

So a d10 burst is the equivalent of +2 average damage to the weapon. Not especially. As for two negative levels per round, it's quite hard to guarantee a full attack, and even that's kind of underwhelming.

At 17th level, two negative levels is certainly not worth writing home about, even if it can hurt sometimes. And even getting them is an uphill struggle (also, 2/5 attacks threaten. Not the same as 2/5 attacks hit).

And again, you've invested quite a bit to get that 12-20 crit range. It had better be worthwhile.

Finally, don't forget the confirmation rolls. Sure, they aren't subject to a bucket of miss chances, but that doesn't mean they can't fail.

[Lix Lorn]

...a d10 burst is an extra 5.5 average damage.
They have pounce. Full attacks are NOT that hard.
Plus, they have +cha to attack rolls. They should hit and threaten most of the time. (Also, six attacks-the sixth gives a little leeway)

Two negative levels-every round. All day.

...you invested a feat. And bought a rapier. That's it.

Not AMAZINGLY likely though.

[Roc Ness]

I shuffled some Shrewd Tactician abilities around, and added a new one that gives a bonus to special attacks. (like trip, sunder...)

I feel that's the weakest of the three. (Not as in bad, but as in badly made.)

I miss the Int to attack and damage rolls, myself. Also, the class has a dead level...

Hmm, I got an idea! :smallbiggrin:
You've already given the Shrewd Tactician a bonus to combat maneuvers. How about giving him the ability to use more than one Combat Maneuver at once? And letting them do those maneuvers with any weapon? Disarm and Trip in one action, Bullrush and then pin an enemy immediately. I can just imagine a Shrewd tactician with a pistol shooting a zombie off its feet... :smallbiggrin:

[lesser_minion]

...a d10 burst is an extra 5.5 average damage.
They have pounce. Full attacks are NOT that hard.

+2.2 if you're not getting it 60% of the time.

As for pounce, it helps, but it's still not a guarantee -- in a dungeon or anything approaching difficult terrain, it's not hard to deny a charge.

And being at-will isn't especially relevant -- by 17th level, nobody cares about 'juice', irrespective of character class.

Stacking bonuses to threat range were only a problem when any critical hit triggered Vorpal. And I'm sure you'll find quite a few people disputing that.

[Lix Lorn]

I miss the Int to attack and damage rolls, myself. Also, the class has a dead level...

Hmm, I got an idea! :smallbiggrin:
You've already given the Shrewd Tactician a bonus to combat maneuvers. How about giving him the ability to use more than one Combat Maneuver at once? And letting them do those maneuvers with any weapon? Disarm and Trip in one action, Bullrush and then pin an enemy immediately. I can just imagine a Shrewd tactician with a pistol shooting a zombie off its feet... :smallbiggrin:
General opinion seemed to say it was silly.
Hmm... I really like that. XD

Lessie: 12-20 is actually 45% of the time.

There are ways to get curving charges. I believe there's a feat somewhere.

Hmmm. Maybe.

I'm not so sure about that. :/

[Siosilvar]

Lessie: 12-20 is actually 45% of the time.

12-20 crits are 45% threats. If you hit on that 12-20, that's more like 20% crits.

[Lix Lorn]

Higher than full bab, Cha to attack rolls. If you miss, you're doing it wrong.

[lesser_minion]

Higher than full bab, Cha to attack rolls. If you miss, you're doing it wrong.

Yes, it is 45%, but that still doesn't make it an issue.

The bonus damage you get from crits doesn't make up for the damage you've lost by taking Improved Critical, the damage you've lost by choosing a weapon with an extreme threat range, or the damage you could potentially have gained by choosing other enhancements.

[Lix Lorn]

Oh? How so? They do get bonus feats, they're unlikely to be short on them.
The choice of weapon is valid. You could lose about 20 damage a hit with that. Buuut, the crit doubles everything else. About equal. (plus negative levels, so...)
Weapon enhancements also valid. What ones would be better?

[lesser_minion]

Oh? How so? They do get bonus feats, they're unlikely to be short on them.
The choice of weapon is valid. You could lose about 20 damage a hit with that. Buuut, the crit doubles everything else. About equal. (plus negative levels, so...)
Weapon enhancements also valid. What ones would be better?

It's still a feat slot you've spent on improved critical instead of on something that may be more useful.

And you're still getting crits less than half the time.

On a low-level weapon, basically anything improves on Keen -- you can check Sean K. Reynolds' analysis for more on that.

A rogue deals +10d8 sneak attack damage every time she hits provided she meets the right prerequisites. A rogue who can't is generally considered worthless in a fight.

You're handing out +6d6 (+ 5d8 + Strength mod. which applies less than half the time). This still isn't much to write home about, even when you get more attacks than the rogue and hit more often.

The Dragonfire Inspiration bard can easily give +8d6 to everyone, and it's certainly possible to increase that further.

[Lix Lorn]

Hmm. Okay. If no-one disagrees with you, I'll leave it there.

[Roc Ness]

General opinion seemed to say it was silly.

Yeah... gotta listen to general opinion.


Hmm... I really like that. XD

Woah! I had a good idea! I'm so excited! Dare I push my luck a little further? :smallbiggrin:

[Lix Lorn]

Yeah... gotta listen to general opinion.
Yes, General Ozymandias Pinion is my most trusted advisor.

Woah! I had a good idea! I'm so excited! Dare I push my luck a little further? :smallbiggrin:
Note to self: Roc Ness is totally awesome.
(Master ball)
Bing! ROC NESS, Pokedex #568 captured! New pokedex data attained!

[Roc Ness]

Yes, General Ozymandias Pinion is my most trusted advisor.

Note to self: Roc Ness is totally awesome.
(Master ball)
Bing! ROC NESS, Pokedex #568 captured! New pokedex data attained!

Hooray, I can push my luck a little bit! Okay, you mentioned earlier that you thought Point Blank Shot wasn't all that fitting a feat for the Shrewd Tactician. Could I suggest Improved Initiative? The Shrewd Tactician must be hard to surprise. No good being good at plans if you die before they formulate. Also, you won't be able to improvise to patch up a plan that went wrong and require initiative...
:BEEP: Roc Ness, the Mutant Seasky Pokemon. Roc Ness is a product of the tinkering of an inquisitive apprentice arcane hierophant. The five that created were released into a secluded lake years later by the same hierophant. Roc Nesses are highly inquisitive and mischevous creatures who enjoy attention. Due to their magical metabolism, they will eat anything, however they prefer whatever you are eating above all else and will go to great lengths to get at it.
:smallbiggrin:

[Lix Lorn]

...yes you can!
Have a cookie!

(Cuddles)
(Teaches Fly, Waterfall, Dragon Dance and Ice Fang)

[monkman]

For the Shrewd Tactician ,on the table it writes bonus feats, are they fighter bonus feats??

[Lix Lorn]

Yes.
Oops.