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DracoDei
2010-05-04, 09:41 AM
Wikipedia-like cross-indexing:
"Storing Poison in My Eyes" the Toxicant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/printthread.php?t=228262) PrC.

Poisonist PrC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/printthread.php?t=164533): loosely based on Flagg from "In the Eyes of the Dragon".

THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/printthread.php?t=89314) thread contains two PrCs plus some feats that both PrCs use. The first PrC is for rogues, and the one at the bottom of the page (by myself) for melee fighters.

Custom Poison Creation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158131): Want an inhaled poison with no initial effects, and 4d6 charisma burn secondary? You can probably do it with these rules.

Unusual Poisons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7805080#post7805080): Poisons that cause everything from fear to excessive ear-wax (which affects listen checks).

Enhance Poison
Necromancy [Evil OR Good (see "special")]
Level: Asn 4, Clr 5, Drd 5, Death 5, Sor/Wiz 5, Trickery 5
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: 1 dose of poison/ravage or one venomous/ravage-producing creature
Duration: 1 day/level until introduced into the system, permanent there-after (see "special")
Saving Throw: Yes (Harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (Harmless)
If used on a venomous/ravage-producing creature the effects apply to the next dose of venom/ravage it delivers, if cast on a poison or ravage it effects that poison/ravage. Note that if cast on a creature multiple times then each casting will apply to a separate dose of poison/ravage delivered.
This has several effects on the poison/ravage:

The save DC increases by 3.
It gains spell resistance equal to 10+your caster level against any effect that would detect it as being anything other than a harmless, mundane substance/ingredient, or would prevent or remove its effects, including but not limited to the following: Delay Poison, Detect Evil, Detect Good, Detect Magic, Detoxify, Detect Poison, Heroes' Feast, and Neutralize Poison. Note that most of these spells don't list anything about spell-resistance for the target, or don't consider the poison the target... the poison gets SR against them anyway. Obviously the spells overall don't fail, they simply fail to be effective against that dose of poison. The GM should roll this SR in secret, and roll even when this spell isn't present to keep the players guessing (perhaps not explaining what the roll is for in the first place).
If the poison/ravage is ingested, then any target slain, and/or with an ability score reduced to zero by it may not be returned to life and/or have that ability score raised above zero by any effect with an effect level (caster level etc) less than or equal to the level this effect was created at. This does not effect natural healing or the expiration of the duration of a poison/ravage effect. Once this effect is overcome the first time it ends for that casting of Enhance Poison.
At the caster's option at the time of casting both the primary and secondary effects of the poison/ravage may be delayed (so never hastened) to a time anywhere from 1 minute to a number of hours (selected at time of casting) equal to the caster level of this spell after the poison/ravage is introduced into the system of the victim. In such a case both effects occur simultaneously, with the two saves rolled simultaneously. Note that this will usually lead victims and observers to believe that the poison/ravage failed to have any effect if they base their conclusions on the symptoms.


You and whichever creature delivers the poison/ravage (biting with fangs, pouring poison/ravage into a cup, etc etc) both gain SR equal to 10+your caster level against any attempt to divine who was responsible for the poison. This includes against magical effects that do not normally allow a saving throw, such as Contact Other Plane and Commune. If you deliver the poison/ravage yourself, you only get one instance of Spell Resistance from this effect, not two.

Material Component: A single black pearl with market price at least equal to the market price of the poison/ravage to be enhanced (for creatures whose venom does not have a listed market price, the GM should assign one, or assume 200 GP per HD).

Special: If cast on a poison or poison producing creature this spell has the [Evil] descriptor, if cast on a ravage or ravage producing creature, it has the [Good] descriptor.
Once this spell becomes permanent, nothing less powerful than Mage's Disjunction can remove its effects until all potential and/or ongoing effects of the poison it enhances are removed. Other things that specifically CAN remove its effects include: Miracle, Reality Revision, and Wish.




Design Notes: Poisoning of even very important (and thus presumably higher level, with access to higher level curative and detection magic) kings etc is a common trope in fiction.
This should also scare your players, and it also makes the Heal skill more useful since it is easier to pump skill checks if you try than it is caster level.
Spell level of 5 is 1 lower than Heroes' Feast and one higher than Neutralize Poison. Should I drop the assassin spell level to 3?
The delaying effect is useful for having it kick in during an duel if if in a pre-battle toast, to allow ample time for the assassin to escape, and/or simply to muddy the waters as to the source of the effect.
This was developed as a reference point for my work in progress, the Skulking Bladder.
Hope I didn't miss anything when I was expanding this to include ravages...
Have added this to the Druid list...

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-05-04, 10:13 AM
Seems balanced enough to me.

I like it - poison is too often disregarded in games because it's easy to avoid it in D&D when you have a decent amount of resources.

Glimbur
2010-05-04, 11:03 AM
If the Poison is ingested, then any target slain, and/or with an ability score reduced to zero by it may not be returned to life and/or have that ability score raised above zero by any effect with an effect level (caster level etc) greater than the level this effect was created at. This does not effect natural healing or the expiration of the duration of a poison effect.


What? Does this mean if a CL 9 wizard casts this on Black Lotus Extract and kills our rogue with it, our CL 11 cleric cannot raise him from the dead but a CL 9 cleric could? This seems contrary to how increases in power are supposed to work.

DracoDei
2010-05-04, 11:50 AM
What? Does this mean if a CL 9 wizard casts this on Black Lotus Extract and kills our rogue with it, our CL 11 cleric cannot raise him from the dead but a CL 9 cleric could? This seems contrary to how increases in power are supposed to work.
No, it just means I got confused about my own phrasing and typoed "greater" when I should have put "less than or equal to".

*Goes to fix.* Edit: Should be fixed now, while I was at it I added it to the druid spell-list, and tried to edit to allow it to be used for Ravages... probably have a typo or two hiding from me regarding the ravages...

ARE there any creatures that produce ravages?

Zeta Kai
2010-05-04, 02:01 PM
I would rename this to Enhance Poison. Enchanting has a very specific meaning in D&D rules, so this name may cause some confusion. Just a thought.

Lateral
2010-05-04, 02:34 PM
What's a ravage? I'll infer that it's a Good version of a poison, but I've never heard of 'em. Could someone point me to a link?

As for the spell, it's pretty awesome. Any intrigue campaign NEEDS this. :smallsmile:

Hey, maybe add an even higher level poison enhancement spell!
Nah, no... Assassin spells max at lv.4.

DracoDei
2010-05-04, 03:35 PM
Zeta Kai: Well, there is Enchant Weapon... oh, wait... that is MAGIC Weapon. Right... will change.

Lateral Master: I have never actually seen the rules for ravages, but I BELIEVE they are in the "Book of Exalted Deeds". You are correct about what they are...

EDIT: Exempted it from dispelling once in the victim's system.

DracoDei
2010-05-04, 04:01 PM
Hey, maybe add an even higher level poison enhancement spell!
Nah, no... Assassin spells max at lv.4.
So? Still possible to give it to Clerics, Druids, and Sorcerers/Wizards.

Doc Roc
2010-05-04, 06:53 PM
Spell failure due to SR is always explicit. And if it isn't, here, then you're just going to tell the players "He's healed. Oh look, he died." And they're going to get really annoyed with you because effectively, you just railroaded one of them to death with homebrew. In other words, you just killed one of their characters directly, as a GM. This is not a solid mechanic.

Lateral
2010-05-04, 07:02 PM
Spell failure due to SR is always explicit. And if it isn't, here, then you're just going to tell the players "He's healed. Oh look, he died." And they're going to get really annoyed with you because effectively, you just railroaded one of them to death with homebrew. In other words, you just killed one of their characters directly, as a GM. This is not a solid mechanic.

...:smallconfused:
What?

So? Still possible to give it to Clerics, Druids, and Sorcerers/Wizards.
Yeah, but assassins are the guys who really use poisons. It doesn't seem fair to make a poison spell that to use, they now have to get a high-level evil sorcerer/wizard/CoD to empower their poison.

Doc Roc
2010-05-04, 07:27 PM
...:smallconfused:
What?

Yeah, but assassins are the guys who really use poisons. It doesn't seem fair to make a poison spell that to use, they now have to get a high-level evil sorcerer/wizard/CoD to empower their poison.

So:
Basically, either when I cast neutralize, it fails, and I know exactly what's up, I'm going to drop a stat-buff then simply wait for the ability damage to wear off, or neutralize fails silently, and I am very confused and angry when Jen The Rogue dies. Or it's just functionally impossible to cure the poison, because I'm up against SR 40+.

Never mind that the rules for detecting poison are terrible, that administering it is trivially easy, and that most of it is useless except the stuff that's basically for killing certain kinds of PCs, and even then a +3 on the DC is meaningless. Worse, black lotus can do anywhere from 6 to 36 con damage, so it might do anything from nothing to brutally annihilate almost anyone on the receiving end. Except the part where it'll top out at DC 23, which is pretty trivial.

Finally, how does this interact with healing the ability damage caused by the poison? Does it make that permanent too? It is unclear.

DracoDei
2010-05-04, 09:03 PM
Don't have a lot of time here, but here is a quick response:

You make a good point in some ways. Perhaps the SR against the curative stuff should be rolled openly, but maybe not. Failing an SR roll on a detection spell is no different, to my mind, than the rogue failing a search check for a trap. Also note that the PCs should definitely be aware if this spell exists in a given campaign setting, unless having invented this spell is going to be a MAJOR shtick of a MAJOR villain in the setting.

As for curing ability score damage or returning someone to life, the additional restrictions (a minimum caster level) only kick in if an ability score is reduced to zero or the character dies of a poison (some poisons might still exist somewhere that deal hit-point damage or literally list "death" as their effect). I suppose I could specifically say that "This has no effect on the effects of Restoration, Restoration, Lesser , or Restoration, Greater or similar spells, to the extent that they restore damaged or drained ability score points. If a spell (such as Heal) both restores ability score points and removes poison, then the restoration effect happens as usual, but the poison removal effect happens only if the poison's/ravage's SR is beaten."


P.S. What is so horrible about the rules for detecting poisons? If you mean by MUNDANE means, this actually isn't supposed to do ANYTHING to counter that except sometimes fooling you into thinking that the person passed the initial or both fortitude saves. If you mean by magical means, yes, this is a 5th level spell that provides some protection against some 1st level spells... I see nothing wrong with that.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-04, 09:28 PM
A ravage is a magical poison that only affects creatures of evil alignment.