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View Full Version : Xorvintaal (MMV p.38) - The Great Game



goken04
2010-05-04, 03:32 PM
I'm considering starting a campaign based around the PCs being "chess pieces" in a game of Xorvintaal and was wondering if anyone has any experience using Xorvintaal dragons.

My first reaction is that the abilities a Xorvintaal dragon gains do NOT compensate for losing its spellcasting ability. In fact, several of the abilities could be easily duplicated with normal spellcasting.

Other than that, I'm looking for advice/stories/experience people have regarding the Great Game to help me as I build this campaign.

AslanCross
2010-05-04, 04:33 PM
I own the book, but I've no experience running a Xorvintaal game.

I think the Xorvintaal abilities offset the problem with dragon spellcasting---it's almost always at a lower level than that of the PCs, and it takes up precious actions that could instead be used for dressing, filleting and baking would-be dragonslayers.

I'm AFB and can't remember the rules exactly, but can't you just have a high-level caster exarch buff the dragon before the PCs actually fight him? Or even have the exarch support the dragon with blast spells the dragon himself is immune to.

goken04
2010-05-04, 04:41 PM
I'm AFB and can't remember the rules exactly, but can't you just have a high-level caster exarch buff the dragon before the PCs actually fight him? Or even have the exarch support the dragon with blast spells the dragon himself is immune to.

Sure you could, I'm just having trouble understanding why an intelligent being would give up powerful spellcasting for the piddling benefits of the Xorvintaal templates, besides the obvious answer of participating in the Great Game.

TheMeMan
2010-05-04, 04:45 PM
Sure you could, I'm just having trouble understanding why an intelligent being would give up powerful spellcasting for the piddling benefits of the Xorvintaal templates, besides the obvious answer of participating in the Great Game.

Dragons are also rather prideful creatures, if I'm not mistaken. The " Great Game" can give them quite a bit of prestige among other dragons, even if one isn't particularly good at the game. So, I would say mostly fluff reasons.

Runestar
2010-05-04, 04:50 PM
My first reaction is that the abilities a Xorvintaal dragon gains do NOT compensate for losing its spellcasting ability. In fact, several of the abilities could be easily duplicated with normal spellcasting.

You are absolutely correct in this regard.

However, one can also argue that it is spellcasting which breaks a dragon and makes it too complex to run. A dragon buffed with bite of XXX and arcane spellsurge clearly has a huge advantage. Xorvintaal brings them back to their "true" cr, and makes them more linear and straightforward to run.

That said, I wonder if a dragon can opt to first give up its sr, then get sr again from that draconomicon feat or a template such as half-fiend? :smallbiggrin:

I have never actually tried it, but I had tinkered with the idea of having the dragon start out as the PCs' benefactor. However, he is much more devious and sinister than he lets on, and is effectively playing both sides of the board.

This borrows heavily from the "Stormriders" plot and a little subplot in dragons of eberron, where the dragon initially adopts the PCs because it was prophesied that they would be instrumental to his rise in power. They will serve him well, and be rewarded well in return.

But later, the same prophecy also states that they will eventually bring about his downfall, so he goes to lengths to plot the PCs' demise while staying behind the shadows.

Finally, the PCs will confront and defeat the dragon, effectively causing the prophecy to come true (which is in part due to the dragon's own superstitious nature). A self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts.

However, with the dragon's demise, this also opens the floodgates as other dragons start waging a turf war over its domain, and the PCs find themselves in the crossfire.

AslanCross
2010-05-04, 04:58 PM
Sure you could, I'm just having trouble understanding why an intelligent being would give up powerful spellcasting for the piddling benefits of the Xorvintaal templates, besides the obvious answer of participating in the Great Game.

Well, their casting is not that impressive to begin with until they get to Great Wyrm levels. A mature adult black, for example, is about 400 years old. After 400 years, he's only progressed 5 sorcerer caster levels and therefore can only handle 2nd level spells?

Besides, there seems to be a loophole---you could simply give the dragon wizard levels. The template only says that the dragon "loses the ability to cast spells"--which of course refers to its innate ability. It doesn't say the dragon can't cast spells of any kind, ever.
The dragon could then make up for that instead by taking actual caster class levels.

Flickerdart
2010-05-04, 05:03 PM
The dragon could then make up for that instead by taking actual caster class levels.
Alternately, levels of Psion skirt the "spell" restriction even more.

goken04
2010-05-04, 05:04 PM
I'm thinking of beginning the game by sending my PCs from their current Material Plane to an alternate Material Plane on a continent dominated by several dragons of the Game. Their current, secret benefactor is a powerful Wizard on this Material Plane who could trade their lives for a powerful draconic boon.

Then have them meet a young dragon who is new to the game who has the Xorvintaal ability to assume form (so they don't even know their new employer is a dragon) who then has them stealing from the hoard of his feudal master dragon in an attempt to create a double-bluff seed hoard in the territory of a rival dragon. Essentially, baiting the rival into allowing the feudal master to set up a new hoard which actually belongs to the new young dragon of the game. Does that make enough nonsense?

Fizban
2010-05-04, 05:05 PM
The only spells any dragon below Great Wyrm level should even care about are things like Scintillating Scales, Wraithstrike, and Wings of Cover. A dragon with one of these is scary, and with all three would be downright nasty. Dragons have horrible caster level and spell DCs, so the only spells they can use are low level buffs and no-save spells, which can be bought in wand form if really needed.

The Xorvintaal template, among other things, can let them effectively empower their breath weapon at will, which is better than basically all of their spellcasting at killing things. A Xorvintaal dragon with the roar trait and metabreath feats that makes use of it's huge flight speed is going to tear things apart.

AslanCross
2010-05-04, 07:11 PM
The only spells any dragon below Great Wyrm level should even care about are things like Scintillating Scales, Wraithstrike, and Wings of Cover. A dragon with one of these is scary, and with all three would be downright nasty. Dragons have horrible caster level and spell DCs, so the only spells they can use are low level buffs and no-save spells, which can be bought in wand form if really needed.

The Xorvintaal template, among other things, can let them effectively empower their breath weapon at will, which is better than basically all of their spellcasting at killing things. A Xorvintaal dragon with the roar trait and metabreath feats that makes use of it's huge flight speed is going to tear things apart.

This, pretty much. Scintillating Scales is very effective, especially in shutting down the vaunted cheese of Shivering Touch.

reptilecobra13
2010-05-04, 07:20 PM
I love Xorvintaal. My players got very frustrated with an NPC based on Singh the Immense, since every time they thought they'd killed him, he'd come back (you have to love those favor tokens!). Exarchs are the real power of a Xorvintaal dragon. You get the right blend of characters, and it's an amazing battle for the PCs. For example, to start this campaign (gestalt, roughly 15th level at this point), I threw a single exarch at the party. It was a concordant killer, under contract of the Xorvintaal dragon manipulating everything, and it was a great first encounter, with no adjustments other than max HP for it, and the Xorvintaal exarch abilities. It's fun stuff.

Draken
2010-05-04, 07:26 PM
The point of losing the spellcasting, I presume, is to force the Dragons of the Great Game to play with their guile and wits and not with their magic.

Xorvintaal looks like a global game of Risk, or something of the like. Without its magic the dragon can't move around the 'board' as freely as it could with it, and thus has to rely more on finding and guiding worthwhile minions to perform the tasks it needs done.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-04, 09:14 PM
I haven't read MMV in a while, but I seem to remember assuming that it was an all-or-nothing swap...you wouldn't use Xorvintaal dragons and normal dragons in the same game, assuming one or the other. Sort of a voluntary stealth nerf to the notoriously overpowered dragons, making them a little weaker and less complex.

Runestar
2010-05-04, 09:22 PM
The only spells any dragon below Great Wyrm level should even care about are things like Scintillating Scales, Wraithstrike, and Wings of Cover.

What? No honourary mention for bite of the werebear? :smalltongue:

Eldariel
2010-05-04, 09:31 PM
The only spells any dragon below Great Wyrm level should even care about are things like Scintillating Scales, Wraithstrike, and Wings of Cover. A dragon with one of these is scary, and with all three would be downright nasty. Dragons have horrible caster level and spell DCs, so the only spells they can use are low level buffs and no-save spells, which can be bought in wand form if really needed.

Uhm? Contingency, Teleport, Dimension Door, Wall of Force, Superior Invisibility, Superior Magic Fang, Mage Armor, Shield, Moment of Prescience, Solid Fog, Wings of Cover, Wings of Flurry, Heal (they get Cleric-spells too)...

There's a plenty of awesome spells that don't give a damn about save DCs or caster levels.

The Shadowmind
2010-05-04, 09:40 PM
If you use the Dragon-wrought kobolds are true dragons wording, couldn't you have a Xorvintaal Dragonwrought Kobold?

Divide by Zero
2010-05-04, 09:53 PM
If you use the Dragon-wrought kobolds are true dragons wording, couldn't you have a Xorvintaal Dragonwrought Kobold?

If you're going for that level of cheese, you'd be better off with Loredrake.

Pluto
2010-05-04, 10:00 PM
Anything that puts Calvinball into D&D is a neat thing.

I've never used it beyond the periphery of a campaign, though.

The dragons are kind of neat though; if only to make them feel less like giant fighter/sorcerers and more like distinct monsters.

Runestar
2010-05-04, 10:08 PM
If you use the Dragon-wrought kobolds are true dragons wording, couldn't you have a Xorvintaal Dragonwrought Kobold?

Sure, but not many of their abilities seem applicable to a kobold. Maybe only the berserker strength variant and the one with the immediate abilities.

But the look on the exarchs' face when they discover they have been serving a kobold all these while...:smallbiggrin:

This reminds me...dragonwrought kobolds qualify for those dragon prcs in draconomicon such as disciple of ashadalon, right? :smallcool:

tyckspoon
2010-05-04, 10:13 PM
This reminds me...dragonwrought kobolds qualify for those dragon prcs in draconomicon such as disciple of ashadalon, right? :smallcool:

They meet the Be A Dragon part of the requirements, yes. Those Prcs have other requirements that are non-trivial to meet for anything except a fairly old dragon (with their free high BAB/saves/natural armor) or an Epic character.

Ormur
2010-05-04, 10:44 PM
I haven't read MMV in a while, but I seem to remember assuming that it was an all-or-nothing swap...you wouldn't use Xorvintaal dragons and normal dragons in the same game, assuming one or the other. Sort of a voluntary stealth nerf to the notoriously overpowered dragons, making them a little weaker and less complex.

I just glanced at it and I think they described it "in game" as a ritual some dragons underwent, exchanging their spellcasting for other powers, implying that there are still normal dragons around that don't play the game.

However they also say it's a way to make dragons more like dragons and less like "sorcerers that happen to be dragons". So it also seems to be meant to change the flavour of dragons in your game. Nothing seems to say you have to apply the template to every dragon.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-05-04, 11:38 PM
It's fun to add an epilogue scene to any game, once a campaign has finally reached its conclusion.

Somewhere, on a secluded mountaintop, two immense dragons meet. One has shining golden scales, the other gleaming red. The red dragon very grudgingly drops a large sack, which partially spills its contents, revealing an impossible fortune of treasure: lustrous gems, mounds of gold coins, and glittering weapons and other items crackling with magical power.
"Damn. I could have sworn Orcus was going to kill those meddling kids, and ascend to godhood."
"Whatever. Just pay up."

Darkxarth
2010-05-04, 11:47 PM
It's fun to add an epilogue scene to any game, once a campaign has finally reached its conclusion.

Somewhere, on a secluded mountaintop, two immense dragons meet. One has shining golden scales, the other gleaming red. The red dragon very grudgingly drops a large sack, which partially spills its contents, revealing an impossible fortune of treasure: lustrous gems, mounds of gold coins, and glittering weapons and other items crackling with magical power.
"Damn. I could have sworn Orcus was going to kill those meddling kids, and ascend to godhood."
"Whatever. Just pay up."

This is amazing. CockroachTeaParty wins.

Fishy
2010-05-05, 12:31 AM
So, I know it's not really in the spirit of the thing, but I drew up some rules for Xorvintaal.

Each 'turn,' the players all get together, and each one secretly writes a Prophesy- which can be as grand, trivial, vague, specific, inevitable or impossible as he desires. The Prophesies are all blindly and randomly re-distributed, and you have until the end of the turn to make it happen.

So, somewhere out there is a Dragon who is trying to fulfill a Prophesy that you wrote, and you get points for stopping him. You don't know who it is. Meanwhile, you have your own Prophesy, and someone knows what it is and is trying to stop you. Meanwhile, you're surrounded by Dragons who are doing inscrutable things, and if you work out what their Prophesy is, you can thwart them, for points. Meanwhile, the mammals are all running around, and they don't seem to know what the word Prophesy means.

At the end of the turn, points are awarded, a new turn begins, and play continues until the heat-death of the universe.

Kaiyanwang
2010-05-05, 04:36 AM
Sort of a voluntary stealth nerf to the notoriously overpowered dragons, making them a little weaker and less complex.

This. Some people, for flavour of complexity, does not like caster dragons, so Xorvintaal brings them what they want.

I guess that this is a sort of pre-4th edition thing of the later manuals. BTW, this is not a bad thing: in 3.5, you can choose between caster and non caster dragons this way.

I prefer the former, and as said above, you can choose carefully nasty spell to buff up your dragon.

In some Eberron book, IIRC, there should be some sort of opposite rule.. loredrake, I'm wong?

goken04
2010-05-05, 01:20 PM
So, I know it's not really in the spirit of the thing, but I drew up some rules for Xorvintaal.

Each 'turn,' the players all get together, and each one secretly writes a Prophesy- which can be as grand, trivial, vague, specific, inevitable or impossible as he desires. The Prophesies are all blindly and randomly re-distributed, and you have until the end of the turn to make it happen.

So, somewhere out there is a Dragon who is trying to fulfill a Prophesy that you wrote, and you get points for stopping him. You don't know who it is. Meanwhile, you have your own Prophesy, and someone knows what it is and is trying to stop you. Meanwhile, you're surrounded by Dragons who are doing inscrutable things, and if you work out what their Prophesy is, you can thwart them, for points. Meanwhile, the mammals are all running around, and they don't seem to know what the word Prophesy means.

At the end of the turn, points are awarded, a new turn begins, and play continues until the heat-death of the universe.

I might actually use this. Another DM I know and I were talking about running Xorvintaal with a meta-game aspect: running two separate groups of PCs as ex-archs and the two DMs picking a dragon to represent them and the DMs playing the PCs against each other like two Xorvintaal dragons. Writing a prophesy for one another might be a way to make that work.

hamishspence
2010-05-05, 01:54 PM
Might be an interesting way of handling The Prophesy in Eberron- many of the dragons have different interpretations of it, and are each acting to fulfill their interpretation, and thwart that of others.