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GlowingFauxPas
2010-05-05, 09:05 AM
Complete Warrior, page 90, has the Warshaper prestige class. At it's third level, it gets the following ability:

Morphic Reach (Su): A warshaper of 3rd level or higher
can suddenly stretch its limbs, neck, or other appendages
outward, giving it 5 more feet of reach than the creature itís
emulating. Unlike most creatures, warshapers donít appear to
have a longer reach until they actually use it.

A) What type of action is morphic reach? Move action? Free action?
B) A character with morphic reach uses the full attack action and has multiple attacks. Alternatively, he uses the whirlwind feat. What squares does he attack? Can he threaten squares both adjacent and 10' away at the same time? I think the answer to A) will cover this one as well

Critical
2010-05-05, 09:07 AM
Um, it just increases your reach by 5 feet when you're in some kind of alternate form. oO It's a passive ability.

Cog
2010-05-05, 09:20 AM
Per the SRD, a (Su) ability is a standard unless otherwise noted - there's a strong case that the 'suddenly' is just such a note. I'd go with Critical, that it's passive, but the RAW does seem a little fuzzy.

Natural reach always threatens adjacent squares as well.

Person_Man
2010-05-05, 09:48 AM
The RAI is clear that you always get +5 ft of reach as long as you're in your alternate form, but people who look at you don't notice that you have the additional reach (and thus might accidentally provoke attacks of opportunity by moving through your threatened area).

Eldariel
2010-05-05, 09:51 AM
The "can suddenly stretch" is fluff. The crunch: "giving it 5 more feet of reach than the creature itís emulating. Unlike most creatures, warshapers donít appear to have a longer reach until they actually use it."

It has 5 feet more reach than the creature it emulates. There's no implied need for activation of any kind. As worded, this is a passive ability, with the side benefit of opponent not finding out until it's too late.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-05, 09:56 AM
Exactly as stated here. It's an (Su) because it only works when you're "in an alternate form" such as wildshape, alter-self, were-form, etc. Just like all the other powers that Warshaper gives (until level 5, which is not bad for some... worthless for others).

Person_Man
2010-05-05, 10:17 AM
Also, since this is obviously the first time you're seriously reading the Warshaper, you should know that it's power level of the PrC is a bit confusing.

If you follow the obvious entry of Druid 5 or Wizard 7/Warshaper 5, you're actually nerfing your build because Warshaper does not progress spells, animal companion, or Wildshape abilities.

If you follow an alternate entry like Changeling Full BAB Class 4/Warshaper 4, you're drastically improving your Meat Shield qualities (although you still won't be nearly as powerful as a full caster).

Also, the Morphic weapons thing is open to serious abuse. You could theoretically grow a bite, claws, gore, tail, wing buffet, unlimited tentacle attacks, and probably a dozen other natural attacks I've forgotten. So talk to your DM before using it.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-05, 10:21 AM
Also, since this is obviously the first time you're seriously reading the Warshaper, you should know that it's power level of the PrC is a bit confusing.

If you follow the obvious entry of Druid 5 or Wizard 7/Warshaper 5, you're actually nerfing your build because Warshaper does not progress spells, animal companion, or Wildshape abilities.

If you follow an alternate entry like Changeling Full BAB Class 4/Warshaper 4, you're drastically improving your Meat Shield qualities (although you still won't be nearly as powerful as a full caster).

Also, the Morphic weapons thing is open to serious abuse. You could theoretically grow a bite, claws, gore, tail, wing buffet, unlimited tentacle attacks, and probably a dozen other natural attacks I've forgotten. So talk to your DM before using it.

Actually, Morphic Weapons specifically says it increases the size catagory of the natural weapons of the form you take. So if you Wild Shape into a Large Bear, your Claws and Bite do damage as if you were a Huge Bear. You can't just Wild Shape into a Large Bear with Huge Tentacles. :smallbiggrin:

senrath
2010-05-05, 10:25 AM
Well, yes, but that's still not progressing spells, animal companion, or wild shape abilities. And the extra damage added by boosting your natural attacks by one size is pretty small.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-05, 10:32 AM
Divine minion (of, say, Anhur) 1/master of many forms 10/warshaper 5 isn't bad at all.

You can also get in via wildshape ranger.


...wing buffet...Is this a hot wing buffet, or honey-glazed barbecue?

Mmm...Boneless wing buffet...

Person_Man
2010-05-05, 11:54 AM
Actually, Morphic Weapons specifically says it increases the size catagory of the natural weapons of the form you take. So if you Wild Shape into a Large Bear, your Claws and Bite do damage as if you were a Huge Bear. You can't just Wild Shape into a Large Bear with Huge Tentacles. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, it does both things:



As a move action, a warshaper can grow natural weapons such as claws and fangs, allowing a natural attack that deals the appropriate amount of damage according to the size of the new form... The morphic weapons need not be natural weapons that the creature already possesses. For example, a warshaper polymorphed into an ettin (Large Giant) could grow a claw that deals 1d6 points of damage, or horns for a gore attack that deals 1d8 points of damage. Comp Warrior pg 90

In addition, if you have pre-existing natural weapons they deal damage as if they were one size larger.

Togo
2010-05-05, 12:31 PM
Divine minion (of, say, Anhur) 1/master of many forms 10/warshaper 5 isn't bad at all.



Illegal build. Master of Many forms requires wildshsape as a class ability.

Togo
2010-05-05, 12:33 PM
Actually, it does both things:



In addition, if you have pre-existing natural weapons they deal damage as if they were one size larger.

But there's nothing to suggest that the ability stacks with itself, so I don't see how you'd use it to gain more than a single additional attack.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-05, 01:39 PM
Actually, it does both things:

In addition, if you have pre-existing natural weapons they deal damage as if they were one size larger.

Point taken... however...


But there's nothing to suggest that the ability stacks with itself, so I don't see how you'd use it to gain more than a single additional attack.

The text does say "A Natural Attack" at the size catagory appropriate to the shape...

Though, I suppose that by RAW (but probably not by RAI) you could take a few dozen move actions while gearing up for a big fight and add a few dozen arms/claws/horns/tentacles/etc. to your form... one at a time.

I would throw a book at you though. :smalltongue:

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-05, 01:46 PM
Master of Many forms requires wildshsape as a class ability.Yup. And you wild shape as an 11th level druid (as the class feature).

GlowingFauxPas
2010-05-05, 02:36 PM
Thanks for the help. I can't ask the DM in this situation because I am the DM, just a novice one. I'm trying to help out my friend who's making a changeling swashbuckler and this seems like an interesting boost, since a natural attack would utilize the swashbuckler's insightful strike ability

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-05, 02:42 PM
Thanks for the help. I can't ask the DM in this situation because I am the DM, just a novice one. I'm trying to help out my friend who's making a changeling swashbuckler and this seems like an interesting boost, since a natural attack would utilize the swashbuckler's insightful strike ability

Throw in a level or two (preferably two, for that sweet +Wis to AC in light armor) of Unarmed Swordsage Variant. Morphic Weapons affect Monk (& Unarmed Swordsage) Unarmed Strikes.

Greenish
2010-05-05, 02:45 PM
edit: a master of masks also seems like a good role-playing choice for a changelingMaster of the Masks is rather amusing, but the Changeling's ability to masquerade as other people will suffer from having to wear an actual mask until higher levels, and most of the masks aren't that hot anyway. If you want that sort of flavour, the Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b) is great.

Person_Man
2010-05-05, 03:01 PM
Thanks for the help. I can't ask the DM in this situation because I am the DM, just a novice one. I'm trying to help out my friend who's making a changeling swashbuckler and this seems like an interesting boost, since a natural attack would utilize the swashbuckler's insightful strike ability

Correct. But Swashbuckler is a pretty weak class that doesn't synergize well with Warshaper. Swash depends on Dex and Int, Warshaper boosts Str and Con. He'd be better off as a Changeling Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Warshaper, or Totemist/Warshaper, or Psychic Warrior/Warshaper.

GlowingFauxPas
2010-05-05, 03:42 PM
Correct. But Swashbuckler is a pretty weak class that doesn't synergize well with Warshaper. Swash depends on Dex and Int, Warshaper boosts Str and Con. He'd be better off as a Changeling Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Warshaper, or Totemist/Warshaper, or Psychic Warrior/Warshaper.

What do you think of this homebrew version of swashbuckler?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151393

Greenish
2010-05-05, 04:02 PM
What do you think of this homebrew version of swashbuckler?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151393Full attacks with movement is nice, but otherwise it's a bit underwhelming.

strider24seven
2010-05-05, 04:21 PM
Just my 2 cents on Warshaper:

Warshaper is a pretty sub-par class the way it was meant to be used, i.e. as a Druid or Shapechange-abusing Sorcerer.

But it absolutely shines with the following 4 build-types (which are not mutually exclusive):
1)Monks and other unarmed-characters
-They gain STR and CON bonuses, which they probably needs because unarmed characters are usually pretty MAD to begin with.
-They gain reach which helps immensely
-They gain fast healing, which unarmed characters usually don't get
-They get extra unarmed damage. 'Nuff said.

2)King of Smack builds
-Reach rocks
-Natural attack abuse

3) Grappler builds
-As rare as they are, grapplers with Improved Grab (IMO all the good ones do) can benefit from the reach to grapple people at range
-Stat bonuses rock for grapplers
-Any non-caster grappler worth his (or her) salt takes levels in Black Blood Cultist, which might conceivably fulfill the "alternative form" requirement of Warshaper, and can abuse the hell out of Morphic Weapons with Savage Grapple.

4)Builds that use unconventional methods of entry
-Bear Warriors (also from CW) benefit from extra STR and CON, reach, and unarmed/natural attack buffing
-Changelings can take WS and abuse it in any number of full BAB builds.
-Primevals
-Arguably classes that change your character's form like Black Blood Cultist, Frostrager, and Fist of the Forest
-Unconventional polymorph-type spells/powers like Form of Doom (buffed tentacles with Morphic Weapons please!)

Person_Man
2010-05-05, 04:37 PM
What do you think of this homebrew version of swashbuckler?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151393

I personally don't like it much. In particular, the Swashbucklerís Guile is overly convoluted, the jumble of bonuses and extra attacks would probably involve a lot of annoying bookkeeping, and it really doesn't have much to do beyond making a full attack every round and some bonus AoO.

For me, a well designed class has options. It's not locked into doing the same thing every round of every combat. So I think the best Swashbuckler is the Warblade. Full BAB, Int based abilities, and a bunch of awesome and easily re-fluffed maneuvers and stances.