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CelestialStick
2006-06-24, 03:11 AM
Okay, before everyone jumps to the "Batman obviously wins," let me say that we're comparing Bruce in leotards (or possibly the bullet-proof "rubber" suit of the movies) to Terry in the high-tech flying, strength amplifying Batsuit.

Just for fun, let's do it two ways: first, Batman v. Batman Beyond as appears obvious, and second where Terry has help from old Bruce against the young Bruce.

I actually think that the first would be tougher fight than people might think, because the suit would give Terry some major advantages, like stealth, strength and flying. Plus let's never underestimate the salutory effects of blasting someone in the face with the rockets. :D

I think this would be one of those cases where Terry would win the initial encounter. Could Batman even get away from Batman Beyond to fight another day? It's hard to see how; the electronic eyes on the Batsuit would damp down the effects of a flash, preventing Batman from getting away with his usual flash-bang.

If Batman could get away, maybe he could figure out a way to win on a second encounter, but remember that even without old Bruce giving Terry help, young Bruce is still fighting technology that he designed (or had Wayne Industries design for him) that's decades beyond him.

I think with the addition of old Bruce giving him advice, Batman Beyond would have a good possibility of beating Batman even on a rematch (assuming that Batman can even get away from Batman Beyond).

Brett Wong
2006-06-24, 03:23 AM
I actually think that Terry would win this one.

Haggis_McCrablice
2006-06-24, 03:27 AM
In the Static Shock crossover Bruce (in the present) says something to the effect that it does't pay to know too much of one's future.

Although,Terry has caught a glimpse of what Bruce was like in his youth, thanks to Talia Head and her father's famous Lazurus treatment, and was suitably impressed.

Holy_Knight
2006-06-24, 03:29 AM
Okay, before everyone jumps to the "Batman obviously wins

JUMP! :)

(Although Terry-with-help-from-Old-Bruce would defeat young Bruce.)

Terry's only as effective as he is because Bruce is there to help him, though, and the real Batman would take Terry down with minimal trouble, even despite the future Bat-suit's advantages. A good parallel is Batman vs. the AzBat, where Batman overcame Jean Paul despite the added strength, power, and weaponry of Jean Paul's Batsuit.

CelestialStick
2006-06-24, 03:56 AM
JUMP! :)

(Although Terry-with-help-from-Old-Bruce would defeat young Bruce.)

Terry's only as effective as he is because Bruce is there to help him, though, and the real Batman would take Terry down with minimal trouble, even despite the future Bat-suit's advantages. A good parallel is Batman vs. the AzBat, where Batman overcame Jean Paul despite the added strength, power, and weaponry of Jean Paul's Batsuit.
I'm so disappointed. You didn't even try to think outside the "Batman always wins" box. :(

Holy_Knight
2006-06-24, 04:09 AM
I'm so disappointed. You didn't even try to think outside the "Batman always wins" box. :(

Sure I did--I start from outside of that box, and I've argued for Batman losing before. In this case though, I gave what I thought were good reasons why Batman would win. Terry isn't much of a fighter or a strategist--he's a kid who has some similar motivations to Bruce, but none of the training. He's able to turn that motivation into victory in large part because Bruce can provide guidance to make up for what Terry lacks. Without that, we're pitting Terry in a supersuit vs. Batman, and I think that Batman's experience, fighting ability, and cleverness outweigh the advantage that the suit gives Terry.

Jarl
2006-06-24, 05:01 AM
I guess it depends as much on which Terry as it does which Bruce. Terry at the end of Epilogue is now Batman. Not, like, the guy who wears the Batman suit and works for Batman, not the guy who takes orders from Batman and follows his lead: Terry is Batman. Superman wants his opinion on a case. And he just so happens to be Bruce's son, which gives him an advantage over most other Batman versus [blank] situations.

-I say... that it's complicated, and I don't really know.

Dawnstrider_Moogle
2006-06-24, 10:54 AM
As Jarl said, Epilogue-era Terry definitely beats Bruce. I think BB-era Terry would still be among the toughest fights Bruce has ever had, though, but I can't be too sure about the outcome.

Holy_Knight
2006-06-24, 12:45 PM
I guess it depends as much on which Terry as it does which Bruce. Terry at the end of Epilogue is now Batman. Not, like, the guy who wears the Batman suit and works for Batman, not the guy who takes orders from Batman and follows his lead: Terry is Batman. Superman wants his opinion on a case. And he just so happens to be Bruce's son, which gives him an advantage over most other Batman versus [blank] situations.

Wait... they made Terry be Bruce's son? How was that supposed to work?

Hzurr
2006-06-24, 02:37 PM
wait... *watches cartoon* No, he's not Bruce's son. If that's right, than that's retarded.

I think it would depend on how they had to fight. Batman is at his prime when he's had a chance to study his opponent, and prepair in advance. I think if he had that opportunity, he could find a way to disable the advantages of Terry's suit.

However, if they just met in the park and it was a fight to the death...then yeah, I'd bet on Terry

Dawnstrider_Moogle
2006-06-24, 04:25 PM
wait... *watches cartoon* No, he's not Bruce's son. If that's right, than that's retarded.

Actually it was really pretty awesome, it only SOUNDS retarded. Spoilers:

It was revealed as the last episode of Justice League Unlimited's second season, after they had just defeated a vast government conspiracy against the Justice League. The leader of that conspiracy changed her tune and started working WITH the League, and especially Batman. She came to think that the world would always need a Batman, and so she obtained a sample of Batman's DNA then used nanotechnology or something to rewrite some guy's "love gun to shoot Bruce Wayne bullets" as the DCAU's creator puts it (this explains why, even though Terry's parents had red and blonde hair, both Terry and Matt had black).

Then, after Terry was born, she sent the Phantom (of "Mask of the Phantom") to assasinate his parents (after they came back from seeing a movie about the Grey Ghost, natch) in order to set him on the path to becoming Batman, but the Phantom couldn't do it because she realized that Batman would never resort to murder. So they abandoned the project...but then Terry's dad was murdered by Jokerz paid off by Powers, and Terry met Bruce, and then he became Batman Beyond anyway.

It sounds really stupid when I tell it like that, but the episode is beautifully done and really sells it as an idea that just adds another level to Terry's struggle to bring himself out of Bruce's shadow and become his own kind of man. Or his own kind of Batman, as the case may be.

Snake
2006-06-24, 09:00 PM
What series was all that revealed in? Justice League?

I'm way out of date on my cartoons.... ::sigh::

Holy_Knight
2006-06-25, 02:37 AM
Actually it was really pretty awesome, it only SOUNDS retarded.
*Snip*

To be honest, that's about the least stupid way they could have done it, and I'm actually glad that that's the explanation. I was afraid it was going to be some stupid and unrealistic secret romance that Bruce had, along the lines of the Bruce-Barbara Gordon pairing, which is completely ridiculous and out of character for them both. And since I've brought that up, I'm going to invoke my right as a huge Batman fan to call BS on that one, and say it never happened (yes, apparently you can do that--or at least I can. ;D). So then:

I hereby declare that Bruce Wayne and Barbara Gordon never had any sort of romantic relationship, nor would they ever, at any time in the past, present, or future.

Since Batman Beyond isn't official canon anyway, the point is mostly moot. But frankly, that just needed to be said.


As Jarl said, Epilogue-era Terry definitely beats Bruce. I think BB-era Terry would still be among the toughest fights Bruce has ever had, though, but I can't be too sure about the outcome.
I'll admit to not having seen the Epilogue episode(s), but as an initial reaction I have a hard time seeing how this could be the case. We know that Batman is capable of defeating opponents with vastly more power than he has, and we also know that even people Batman has trained personally generally can't match his expertise. (In a recent fight between Batman and Nightwing, for instance, Nightwing couldn't even land a hit on Batman--and Batman trained **** personally from childhood.) What happens that makes it seem as if Terry reaches the point where he definitely wins against Bruce in his prime?

Beleriphon
2006-06-25, 02:42 AM
What happens that makes it seem as if Terry reaches the point where he definitely wins against Bruce in his prime?

The suit, thats about all Terry has going for him that clearly makes him better than Bruce. Otherwise I don't see this one going in Terry's favour. Bruce has a much greater drive to win, or least I've always seen it that way when watching the cartoons.

silvadel
2006-06-25, 02:43 AM
Justice league is a pretty good cartoon actually... It is nice to see superman in his middle age as opposed to a youthful superman...

As for Terry vs Bruce -- it would be kind of close if terry had the suit and bruce had the home-town advantage. It would also be kind of close if they were both stripped of all advantages and thrown into the ring. If Bruce had time to prepare then he would probably win.

At any rate -- they are both Batman -- would be nice to see some of the beyond eps again -- been a long time.

aaronbourque
2006-06-25, 10:48 AM
I'll admit to not having seen the Epilogue episode(s), but as an initial reaction I have a hard time seeing how this could be the case.
By the time of Epilogue, Terry has become a full adult, has been trained by Batman for like a decade or more, and no longer needs crime-fighting tips. He has truly become Batman for a new generation.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

CelestialStick
2006-06-25, 06:34 PM
To be honest, that's about the least stupid way they could have done it, and I'm actually glad that that's the explanation. I was afraid it was going to be some stupid and unrealistic secret romance that Bruce had, along the lines of the Bruce-Barbara Gordon pairing, which is completely ridiculous and out of character for them both. And since I've brought that up, I'm going to invoke my right as a huge Batman fan to call BS on that one, and say it never happened (yes, apparently you can do that--or at least I can. ;D). So then:

I hereby declare that Bruce Wayne and Barbara Gordon never had any sort of romantic relationship, nor would they ever, at any time in the past, present, or future.

Since Batman Beyond isn't official canon anyway, the point is mostly moot. But frankly, that just needed to be said.

I'll admit to not having seen the Epilogue episode(s), but as an initial reaction I have a hard time seeing how this could be the case. We know that Batman is capable of defeating opponents with vastly more power than he has, and we also know that even people Batman has trained personally generally can't match his expertise. (In a recent fight between Batman and Nightwing, for instance, Nightwing couldn't even land a hit on Batman--and Batman trained **** personally from childhood.) What happens that makes it seem as if Terry reaches the point where he definitely wins against Bruce in his prime?
Canon is only for the narrow, rigid-minded comic book fanatics. The rest of us really don't care.

In any case, the relationship between Batman and Batgirl made for a compelling story. They were both beyond (no pun intended) the age of consent by the time they had the relationshp, so there's nothing wrong with it. Indeed it seems quite natural that they should have developed such feelings in the course of fighting crime together.

I'm not sure that even within the narrow comic book canon we know that Batman Mary Sue "is capable of defeating opponents with vastly more power than he has." We know that with the help of a nuclear blast, another superhero (Green Arrow) and two pieces of the now-rare kryptonite Batman was able to get his hands around Superman's neck. We don't even know that Batman would have had the physical strength to strangle Superman to death, since Superman has repeatedly survived maulings while weaponed by kyrptonite over the years.

We do know that Batman acted like one of his own typical opponents, gloating over his enemy but not actually killing him. When this happens, the Bat-deifiers never say, "Joker/Penguin/Two-Face/etc. beat Batman" and yet the only thing that's different is that in these cases we know Joker/Penguin/Two-Face/etc., having rendered Batman unable to move or unconscious, could easily have killed Batman. So either ordinary human beings regularly defeat Batman, and Batman with a nuke, another superhero and two pieces of kryptonite once defeated Superman, or these humans never defeated Batman who never defeated Superman. You can't have it both ways.

Holy_Knight
2006-06-26, 03:30 AM
By the time of Epilogue, Terry has become a full adult, has been trained by Batman for like a decade or more, and no longer needs crime-fighting tips. He has truly become Batman for a new generation.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

This still doesn't strike me as supporting that Terry would definitely win. Nightwing was personally trained by Batman too, and he would certainly not win against Batman. I'm not saying Terry wouldn't have a good chance (especially with the suit), but I still don't see it as an obvious victory for him, like some other people do.



Canon is only for the narrow, rigid-minded comic book fanatics. The rest of us really don't care.
To be honest, I agree to an extent, it just struck me as interesting that the thing I was so annoyed with wasn't an "official" DC story anyway. Believe me, if it were canon, I'd have just as much problem with it.



In any case, the relationship between Batman and Batgirl made for a compelling story. They were both beyond (no pun intended) the age of consent by the time they had the relationshp, so there's nothing wrong with it. Indeed it seems quite natural that they should have developed such feelings in the course of fighting crime together.
I wasn't criticizing it because of consent issues, I was criticizing it because it's completely out of character for them both, especially Batman. I don't think it seems natural in the slightest.



We do know that Batman acted like one of his own typical opponents, gloating over his enemy but not actually killing him. When this happens, the Bat-deifiers never say, "Joker/Penguin/Two-Face/etc. beat Batman" and yet the only thing that's different is that in these cases we know Joker/Penguin/Two-Face/etc., having rendered Batman unable to move or unconscious, could easily have killed Batman. So either ordinary human beings regularly defeat Batman, and Batman with a nuke, another superhero and two pieces of kryptonite once defeated Superman, or these humans never defeated Batman who never defeated Superman. You can't have it both ways.
There's a crucial point that you're missing here: Batman didn't want to kill Superman. He didn't stop short because he was gloating like a "dime-a-dozen villain", he stopped short because it was never his intention to actually kill Superman. Seriously, read The Dark Knight Returns, and you'll see that it really doesn't deserve the poor reaction you imagine it does.

turkishproverb
2006-06-26, 06:41 PM
There's a crucial point that you're missing here: *Batman didn't want to kill Superman. *He didn't stop short because he was gloating like a "dime-a-dozen villain", he stopped short because it was never his intention to actually kill Superman. *Seriously, read The Dark Knight Returns, and you'll see that it really doesn't deserve the poor reaction you imagine it does.

Very true.

MY opinion on this hinges thus:

BB: Terry without old bruce VS Bruce Wayne
Winner: Bruce

BB: Terry with old bruce VS Bruce
WInner: Terry and old bruce

Epilogue: Terry vs Bruce
Winner: Tough choice, probably Bruce, with severe wounds and property damage caused in the process, but I'd give close to even money on who'd win.

Ing
2006-06-27, 08:38 AM
remember E.1 of batman beyond


Wayne turns on the suites failsafe...Terry is electrocuted


winner

WAYNE...and oddly enough he wins by preperation...preperation made years before he even met Terry. this is one of the few times you can actually have a reason to point to and just say Preperation! its a bueatful thing

CelestialStick
2006-06-27, 09:43 PM
This still doesn't strike me as supporting that Terry would definitely win. Nightwing was personally trained by Batman too, and he would certainly not win against Batman. I'm not saying Terry wouldn't have a good chance (especially with the suit), but I still don't see it as an obvious victory for him, like some other people do.

To be honest, I agree to an extent, it just struck me as interesting that the thing I was so annoyed with wasn't an "official" DC story anyway. Believe me, if it were canon, I'd have just as much problem with it.

I wasn't criticizing it because of consent issues, I was criticizing it because it's completely out of character for them both, especially Batman. I don't think it seems natural in the slightest.

There's a crucial point that you're missing here: Batman didn't want to kill Superman. He didn't stop short because he was gloating like a "dime-a-dozen villain", he stopped short because it was never his intention to actually kill Superman. Seriously, read The Dark Knight Returns, and you'll see that it really doesn't deserve the poor reaction you imagine it does.
I know you're quoting someone else on this point, but just to clarify, I don't think it's obivous that Terry would win. I do think that the suit gives him some big advantages. The fact that Terry would know about Bruce's modus operandi would help him too. The two factors combined might just allow him to defeat Bruce.

I don't see and you've yet to explain how the relationship is out of character for Bruce and Barbara. I came up with age of consent because I can see nothing else remotely out of character for either of them. I mean, Barbara had a relationship with ****, so why not, once older and more mature, with Bruce? As for Bruce, he's had relationships with Selina and Talia al Ghul, and much later with Wonder Woman, so why not with Barbara? Frankly she seems like the best match for him out of all of them.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-06-27, 10:15 PM
I remember reading in an interview somewhere that Terry was at about "40% as skilled as the original Batman in his prime, so far."

In other words, he may have the amplified strength and the jetpack, but Batman's used to being physically outclassed and could make up the difference with his martial arts skills. I see it going like.... Terry flies at Bruce, Bruce judo-flips him into a wall....

CelestialStick
2006-06-28, 01:23 AM
I remember reading in an interview somewhere that Terry was at about "40% as skilled as the original Batman in his prime, so far."

In other words, he may have the amplified strength and the jetpack, but Batman's used to being physically outclassed and could make up the difference with his martial arts skills. I see it going like.... Terry flies at Bruce, Bruce judo-flips him into a wall....


And Terry fires his rockets into Bruce's face, burning and blinding him. :D

Nightmarenny
2006-10-18, 11:41 PM
To be honest, that's about the least stupid way they could have done it, and I'm actually glad that that's the explanation. I was afraid it was going to be some stupid and unrealistic secret romance that Bruce had, along the lines of the Bruce-Barbara Gordon pairing, which is completely ridiculous and out of character for them both. And since I've brought that up, I'm going to invoke my right as a huge Batman fan to call BS on that one, and say it never happened (yes, apparently you can do that--or at least I can. ;D). So then:

I hereby declare that Bruce Wayne and Barbara Gordon never had any sort of romantic relationship, nor would they ever, at any time in the past, present, or future.

Since Batman Beyond isn't official canon anyway, the point is mostly moot. But frankly, that just needed to be said.

I'll admit to not having seen the Epilogue episode(s), but as an initial reaction I have a hard time seeing how this could be the case. We know that Batman is capable of defeating opponents with vastly more power than he has, and we also know that even people Batman has trained personally generally can't match his expertise. (In a recent fight between Batman and Nightwing, for instance, Nightwing couldn't even land a hit on Batman--and Batman trained **** personally from childhood.) What happens that makes it seem as if Terry reaches the point where he definitely wins against Bruce in his prime?
*backhands you*

Beyond is DCAU canon. As confirmed by JLU and the fact that it would be just dumb to say isn't because the only argument you have is "I don't want it to"

DCUA Batman also was completly incharecter to go after barbara hell I doubt there is any girl half his age that he wasn't with.


As for who would win. I give it to Terry. Both times. Terry was trained by the Old-Bruce the one who called JLU Bruce green. If he has those secrets that good. Plus he has tech years ahead of Batmans years. Most of all if he's been looking at old-Bruce's files he's got a series example. Batman being the guy who prepares for everything he probably knows his old self's weakness and exactly what to do. So Terry would have those notes as well.

Ralfarius
2006-10-18, 11:54 PM
remember E.1 of batman beyond


Wayne turns on the suites failsafe...Terry is electrocuted


winner

WAYNE...and oddly enough he wins by preperation...preperation made years before he even met Terry. this is one of the few times you can actually have a reason to point to and just say Preperation! its a bueatful thing
Beat me to the punch on this one.

Batman designed Terry's batsuit. Therefore, it stands to reason that Batman would know how to disable Terry's batsuit. If you want to get silly, he could Bill & Ted his way to victory.

"Well, knowing that I would end up fighting my protegé in the future, I designed the batsuit to release a lethal amperage directly to the heart of whoever might be wearing it if they make any aggressive action against me...

And I also prepared a key to the cage that fell on me!"

Nightmarenny
2006-10-18, 11:56 PM
Beat me to the punch on this one.

Batman designed Terry's batsuit. Therefore, it stands to reason that Batman would know how to disable Terry's batsuit. If you want to get silly, he could Bill & Ted his way to victory.

"Well, knowing that I would end up fighting my protegé in the future, I designed the batsuit to release a lethal amperage directly to the heart of whoever might be wearing it if they make any aggressive action against me...

And I also prepared a key to the cage that fell on me!"
Yeah that the flaw in that theory. How could Batman(I assume JLU current?) know about the Batsuits shockers.

Ralfarius
2006-10-19, 12:01 AM
He's the world's greatest detective. I would think he could figure out his own suit designs, current or potential.

Nightmarenny
2006-10-19, 01:43 AM
He's the world's greatest detective. I would think he could figure out his own suit designs, current or potential.
Ok so what you are expecting Batman to do is-
1)Predict the technological advances fifty-year into the future
2)Then somehow have the remote to trigger it.

Batman's genius not a Psychic time-travler.

Logic
2006-10-19, 03:24 AM
For those of you that don't like it, treat as exactly what it is. An alternate take on the Batman Mythos.

And for the fanbois, Batman is not the catch-all end-all super-human that cannot be defeated. If he never lost, then the comics would no longer be interesting since nothing and no one would be a challenge.

Jerthanis
2006-10-31, 11:06 AM
Anyone who's seen a significant portion of BB should know that Terry isn't helpless by any means outside the Batman suit, and has a powerful physique and no small amount of fighting skills. I'd say young Bruce could take unassisted Terry Batman after a difficult fight, but only because Terry wouldn't know to commit (Pull his punches, not shoot rockets at face ect. and wouldn't know to go all out until after Batman had dealt some damage to the suit.) Assisted, Old Bruce would be pointing out all of young Bruce's weaknesses, and Terry Batman would pick him apart with no significant trouble. Also, Terry at HIS prime, Epilogue era would not only hold his own, but would have more than a good chance of winning. The suit bridges the gap between the almost inhuman cleverness and skill that young bruce has and the very superb level of cleverness and skill that Terry has.

Batman can be defeated, but his villains are rarely shown to best him in hand to hand combat, and are generally chemists, utilizing knockout gas. Also, his villains tend to strike not directly at batman, but at banks and civilians and places where batman ISN'T... and then engineer the situation so Batman is placed in danger while following them. The Joker never bows and says, "Let's fight like Gentlemen."... The Penguin doesn't know martial arts, the Riddler's superpower is the ability to tell the good guys what his evil plan is. The conflict in Batman isn't "Can he win in a fistfight?" but "Can he figure out the mystery before it's too late." the exceptions to this are of course, Bane and Croc, but they barely qualify as more than minibosses in sidescrolling beat-em-ups... So basically, when these "Who would Win? Batman would" scenarios come up, it's because people think... "Who's smart enough to best Batman? Who can force Batman to fight, and fight now, knowing his weaknesses? Alright, we have XYZ characters who can do that... but they aren't physically powerful (most batman villains) so Batman would be able to fight his way through." then we consider from the other angle, "Who is physically powerful enough to beat Batman toe to toe?" (lots of these, anyone with superstrength and some idea how to use it.) and then we think about which one of them is smart enough to beat Batman on a tactical, cleverness level... and we get only a small handful.

Personally, I think Captain America might be able to take Batman, because he's probably stronger, is just as trained in Martial Arts, is a brilliant tactical thinker. He's probably better in toe-to-toe, better at midrange, and can keep up tactically. It'd at least be worth thinking about.

Jarl
2006-10-31, 06:24 PM
The fought in Marvel Versus DC. They decided that, after a long battle, one of them (forget who) would lose, so why bother. Then they teamed up to beat the real badguy.

-So, cop out, basically.

storybookknight
2006-11-06, 11:00 PM
More importantly, can you construct a compelling reason for them to duke it out? I'm sure it's possible, I'm just too lazy to do it.

I give it to Terry both times, but it'd be by no means easy the first. He'd have at least a basic familiarity with the techniques, and a definite strength, speed, maneuverability, endurance, and tech advantage. Especially if we give neither preparation. The more preparation time involved, the more likely it is for Bruce to win.

Zael Zuran
2006-11-15, 11:53 AM
Sorry, long Post...

Season 1? Bruce.

From the midpoint to the end of the series? Maybe Bruce, more on combat techniques than technology. Bruce habitually has to face villains in his own era with vastly superior strength. But Terry also has Old Bruce's advice and tactics. Just a question of how ruthless / sentimental Old Bruce would be willing to be with himself.

Epilogue? Terry. Clearly enough time has passed that he has had ample time to get up to speed with various martial arts. The technical edge just gets sharper now.

Terry is unlike any of the apprentices before him. With the exception of Jason Todd, the Robins think like Cops who try to think like criminals.

Jason Todd thought like a criminal. He was offered the job while trying to steal the wheels off the batmobile. He made lots of good and bad decisions, but his reality was based on being rewarded for doing what he wanted. Until the big bang and his subsequent ressurrection, anyhoo...

Terry thinks like a criminal who wants to be a hero. To him its not a question of: What would the villain do now?

Its more: What would I do if I hadn't straightened my life out? How far could I have fallen?

And most importantly, to distinguish from Jason Todd:

Terry straightened out (more or less) before he met Bruce. It was the vengeance seed common to most of the apprenti that gave him the impetus to take the law into his own hands.

Bruce simply decided to help guide Terry to a destination that closer resembled his own in a city that more or less turned a blind eye to vigilantism.

In other words, part of Terry's strength versus Bruce would be similar to ****'s strength versus Bruce.

**** Grayson is a far greater natural athlete than Bruce. That part of the job came easily to him. But he wasn't crazy like Bruce. When his parents were avenged, he became far more easy going.

Tim Drake is a far greater natural detective than Bruce. But he also was the Robin (also Carrie? from DKR) with the least emotional / psychiatric investment in the dark avenger persona.

Jason Todd never really ceased to be a criminal. He fought for the good guys ala Robin Hood, but had a dark side that has been kept in check with wildly varying success.

But of those, only Terry has something that Bruce doesn't really get at all. Terry not only thinks like a criminal, but he is repulsed by his ability to do so. He believes and strives for goodness, but fully expects, anticipates, and understands human ugliness. Bruce sees patterns in criminal behavior, but doesn't really get it. (Killing Joke & Vintage Batman comics: Trying to rehabilitate the Joker...Arkham Asylum: Criminals are a cowardly and superstitious lot.....over and over again)

Terry is quite possibly, the only of Bruce's apprentices to actually exceed the master in the ugly part of the mind and soul where cynicism and vengeance breed.

It would seem in Epilogue that Bruce's greatest gift to Terry was his encouragement to follow through with Dana. I suspect Bruce realized how old and mean he was. I suspect he knew Terry would be even worse, if there wasn't someone Terry could be human with. Even Bruce had Alfred and his slew of girlfriends to NOT BE BATMAN with. Plus he had the whole Bruce Wayne persona for relaxing as well as gathering information.

By Epilogue, Terry was turning into Batman, at a level Bruce could never hope to. Terry might as well have never existed. He had the Wayne fortune at his command, was NOT Wayne's public ward, and had no public life to speak of.

He could have very easily LITERALLY become the bat.

And Bruce's gift? Step back. Have a life. Even Superman played Clark Kent from time to time.

Yeah, I really liked the show. :smallbiggrin:

Selrahc
2006-11-16, 03:27 PM
I'd have to say Batman Beyond would win in his prime. Not only win, but win easily, since he was as skilled as Batman, but wearing gear that would let him smash bruce into unconciousness with a single blow.

At his start however, he would be completely schooled, but that would be kind of an unfair fight.

Dawnstrider_Moogle
2006-11-16, 04:29 PM
It's also important to remember that Terry is, like Batman, -also- capable of taking on stronger foes without his gear - the best example of this is
that one episode ("Lost Soul") where an AI took control of his suit and he fought it and won (while wearing Nightwing's mask, although not the rest of the costume, which is kind of a shame because I'm a big fan of that one.

Reinforcements
2006-11-17, 08:44 PM
So... apparently I HAVEN'T seen every episode of Batman Beyond. I need to get on that.

I think I also managed to miss almost every good episode of Justice League and JL:U, because I thought both those shows sucked. I blame Wonder Woman and John Stewart.

Fireball.Man.Guy.
2006-11-28, 08:21 PM
While Bruce has the training, he dosent do a whole lot of martial arts moves. More heavy punches, that kind of thing. Terry is a lot faster, and the suit pretty much makes up for strength. Bruce is tougher, but half his attacks rely on gas, and I assume Terry's suit has a kickass filtration sysem. Terry has some much more potent attacks, and can fly. Rockets beat batarangs, though the batarangs outnumber rockets, a few rockets and Bruce is sweating. So I think Terry wins.