PDA

View Full Version : Watching Watchmen



Ing
2006-07-19, 10:46 PM
yah its my new obession...i finally finished it.

but i have a question

WAS THE BULLET REALLY CAUGHT or was it some sort of magic trick...say did he wear bullet proof armor and palm a spare bullet so he could create the illusion he caught the bullet....any thoughts?

anphorus
2006-07-20, 12:00 AM
I'm pretty sure he actually caught the bullet. He has the training and the smarts to pull it off, and I think that it's definatly possible, since you can catch a bullet in your teeth.

Also, if you read the panels closely the muzzle flas stops at his hands and his hand is burnt after catching it. He also cradles his hand for a few panel afterwards.

"I did it 35 minutes ago." Fantastic book.

Ing
2006-07-20, 12:02 AM
I'm pretty sure he actually caught the bullet. He has the training and the smarts to pull it off, and I think that it's definatly possible, since you can catch a bullet in your teeth.

Also, if you read the panels closely the muzzle flas stops at his hands and his hand is burnt after catching it. He also cradles his hand for a few panel afterwards.

"I did it 35 minutes ago." Fantastic book.


actually you CANT catch a bullet in your teeth...the closest is the magic bullet illusion trick.

sun_tzu
2006-07-20, 10:29 AM
Yeah. I mean, bullets can dent steel. If you caught one with your teeth, well...I imagine it would keep going. With your teeth following in its wake.

Smashymcsmash
2006-07-20, 12:16 PM
I believe the bullet was really caught as that is just the coolest thing ever. He figured out how to catch a bullet. Seriously...sweet.

Poison_Fish
2006-07-20, 12:44 PM
watchman stuff.

You sir, win, for your avatar.

Ing
2006-07-20, 08:57 PM
You sir, win, for your avatar.

where'd that come from...i am lost and confuseded

Poison_Fish
2006-07-20, 10:07 PM
Off topic, yes. Just noting someone's avatar for being awesome. Don't mind me.

Ing
2006-07-20, 10:21 PM
Off topic, yes. Just noting someone's avatar for being awesome. Don't mind me.

meh that's what Pms are for.

Anyone read The Other, where Spidy rips off the Watchmen and tries to catch two magic bullets.

hillariously he failed.

Skyserpent
2006-07-21, 08:09 AM
Whoo!

I've had this signature for like 2 years now...

Dawnstrider_Moogle
2006-07-21, 10:58 AM
Watchmen is awesome...although I really didn't like how the existence of psychics was a crucial part of Ozy's plan and yet the existence of psychic abilities was never established or mentioned or even alluded to until then. A sideshow gypsy that really does seem to know the future, or making someone "uncannily intuitive," or actually showing or mentioning the psychic who he murdered and then cloned the brain of.

Ing
2006-07-21, 11:16 AM
Watchmen is awesome...although I really didn't like how the existence of psychics was a crucial part of Ozy's plan and yet the existence of psychic abilities was never established or mentioned or even alluded to until then. A sideshow gypsy that really does seem to know the future, or making someone "uncannily intuitive," or actually showing or mentioning the psychic who he murdered and then cloned the brain of.

That's why it was so insane, no one believed him because he seemed to just be spouting nonsense. psychics, aliens, new york? nothing you've said is true at all!

I don't know if he actually murdered the psychic...they just said that "she died" i got the impression it was natural causes which is why he waited so long, he needed to find a good brain....but then agian judging by Ozzy killing some random person is a safe bet too.

Coffee_Dragon
2006-07-21, 12:03 PM
Watchmen is awesome...although I really didn't like how the existence of psychics was a crucial part of Ozy's plan and yet the existence of psychic abilities was never established or mentioned or even alluded to until then.

The psychic is mentioned in one of the newspaper scraps. Should have been a little more visible, I agree.

anphorus
2006-07-21, 10:33 PM
Anyone read The Other, where Spidy rips off the Watchmen and tries to catch two magic bullets.

hillariously he failed.

That was great. To be fair, he did catch one of them.

You can't catch a bullet with your teeth? It... it feels like everything I know about the world is a lie...



You sir, win, for your avatar.
I'll just collect my internets at the door shall I? ;)

Ing
2006-07-21, 10:42 PM
That was great. To be fair, he did catch one of them.

You can't catch a bullet with your teeth? It... it feels like everything I know about the world is a lie...

I'll just collect my internets at the door shall I? ;)




Nope its theoritcly possible to catch with the hand because its dexterous enough and can cup or palm the bullet...or at least knock it out of the way, whether someone can actually react fast enough to do this, rather than it randomly happening once every 100000000 times, is debatable. the teeth can't grip it and biting down on it would shatter the teeth/scrape the tops of the teeth off as the bullet continued to pass.

Ing
2006-07-28, 01:33 AM
on another note...Ozy's plan, Right? Wrong? a success? failure?

Duke it out.

turkishproverb
2006-07-29, 02:07 AM
Right and Wrong arent easily applicable, unless you know the effect.

But I predict failure, so its wrong as it kills millions with no real point.

Humans can't live a very long time without trying to screw each other over.

Eventually, the Russians or the US, or another group would decide that the aliens weren't coming, or that a neighbor was a threat and conspiring with the aliens, or that the big guy was a mistake and not meant for this planet, or something along those lines, and go after their neighboring countries.

Sophistemon
2006-08-09, 01:05 AM
Moot point really, as the Cold War never really got Hot or even Warm.

Jack_Banzai
2006-08-09, 06:19 PM
Moot point really, as the Cold War never really got Hot or even Warm.

You wouldn't say that if you had been alive during the Cuban Missile Crisis or the Korean War. Or if you had been living in Afghanistan in the seventies and eighties. Ask your parents sometime.

Dragonmuncher
2006-08-17, 01:45 PM
You wouldn't say that if you had been alive during the Cuban Missile Crisis or the Korean War. *Or if you had been living in Afghanistan in the seventies and eighties. *Ask your parents sometime.

I think he meant the Watchmen Cold War- with the presence of Dr. Manhattan, it wasn't much of a fight. US stomped butt in Vietnam, did the Cuban Missile Crisis even happen? If it did, it wasn't a very big deal, I think.

There were still nukes, and it was still Bad News Bears all over (Jon wouldn't have been able to stop ALL of the missiles... although I'm not really sure why.) But until Jon left, there wasn't as much danger as our Cold War had.

Of course, as soon as the linchpin of your entire defense decides to go to Mars, you're in a bit of a pickle...

Emperor Demonking
2006-08-17, 01:52 PM
I just thought he was doing a joke about the words cold and hot.

Dareloth
2006-08-19, 05:06 AM
I think that Ozy would not have sacrificed all those lives if there were any forseeable way his plan could fail. If the flaw was as simple as the ones that have been pointed out, he would have thought of it, and changed his mind. He's not evil, and hates that this is what it takes to end the war.

Though the good doctor does make some mention that there is a flaw he's overlooked, right before leaving for good. if there is a flaw in Ozy's plan, I think that if he hasn't thought of it, neither have we.

Steward
2006-08-19, 09:13 PM
I think that Ozy would not have sacrificed all those lives if there were any forseeable way his plan could fail

You sure about that? Ozymandias (comics) has always struck me as being too intelligent for his wisdom.

Jack_Banzai
2006-08-20, 07:49 AM
Though Ozymandias was/is a brilliant bastid by all accounts, he's not infallible. Doc Manhattan proved that one pretty well, don't you think?

Ing
2006-08-20, 11:00 AM
Though Ozymandias was/is a brilliant bastid by all accounts, he's not infallible. Doc Manhattan proved that one pretty well, don't you think?

Yah but Ozy admited he was just guessing there, had no idea what would happen and it was just a last ditch (**** I really Hope it never comes to this) plan.

comicshorse
2006-09-23, 08:10 PM
It could be argued that Ozzy saw that Jon would eventually leave at which point america, minus its defence linchpin, would go into ultra-paranoid mode, the east would flex its muscles and all would go up in flames. ( Remember all the t.v. reports in the background about troops massing in afganhistan, fleets moving to engage, etc)
Ozzy released his plan couldn't change essentail human nature and make us all love each other but it could get us pass a crisis point that would unaltered inevitably lead to a nuclear exchange

Jarl
2006-10-12, 03:47 AM
Ozy apparently didn't think past his great solution, though.

-"Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends."

beeblebear
2006-10-18, 05:15 AM
I think that Ozy would not have sacrificed all those lives if there were any forseeable way his plan could fail. If the flaw was as simple as the ones that have been pointed out, he would have thought of it, and changed his mind. He's not evil, and hates that this is what it takes to end the war.

Though the good doctor does make some mention that there is a flaw he's overlooked, right before leaving for good. if there is a flaw in Ozy's plan, I think that if he hasn't thought of it, neither have we.

The flaw is simple.
Rorshach (sp?) had written a diary which contained enough information to trace the origin of the "alien". Once this was printed, which was about to happen in the very last frame, the whole house of cards Ozymandias had built would come tumbling down, as the mighty looked upon his work and despaired.

Jack_Banzai
2006-10-18, 01:43 PM
The flaw is simple.
Rorshach (sp?) had written a diary which contained enough information to trace the origin of the "alien". Once this was printed, which was about to happen in the very last frame, the whole house of cards Ozymandias had built would come tumbling down, as the mighty looked upon his work and despaired.


Yes. I thought it quite obvious. The ambiguous ending leaves the reader wondering whether or not the Daily Frontiersman ends up printing Rorschach's journal, thereby screwing up Ozy's plan.

Grazzt
2006-10-30, 05:45 PM
I'm not even sure about the diary being enough to stop him. My points:

a) The New Frontiersman is a nutty right-wing publication, blatantly racist and anti-semitic. Who is going to believe them?
b) Rorschach was clearly out of his mind. Who is going to believe him?
c) How much info did Rorschach really have? He knew Ozy had killed the Comedian, killed Moloch, orchestrated Doc Manhattan's departure, and framed him for Moloch's murder. That's pretty much it. Rorschach didn't have even the faintest inkling of what was going to happen in New York.

My best guess is even if they did publish the diary, no one but a few conspiracy buffs will believe the fact that Ozy was involved with what few crimes he's accused of. And even they probably won't link Ozy to the attack on New York.

The whole thing highlights exactly what a huge failure Rorschach was.

Logos7
2006-10-30, 08:40 PM
someone maybe ought to try reading the watchmen again?

Rorshack didn't fail, he died being killed by Jon which is not exactly a fair comparison of skill. His message still got out ( What Ozymundis was up to ) I'm sure watergate would have looked like a conspiracy story if printed in lefty pubsu, but look it happened. The Idea is that Rorshack got the truth out there, in his own nutty way, not that he failed.

Anyway, yes i read it and i think that the point of that matter is that Ozy wasn't so smart he underestimated rorshack and his plan is going to fail becuase of that , thus all his work was in vain.

Logos

Piedmon_Sama
2006-10-31, 01:03 PM
Ozymandias's plan was in vain because eventually people will go back to their old behaviors. The peace he sacrificed four million lives for can't last forever. Ultimately the only thing Ozy won was a reprieve. He knew it, though he didn't want to admit it, at the end of the story.

Grazzt
2006-10-31, 02:20 PM
someone maybe ought to try reading the watchmen again?

I'd love too, but I don't own it. I don't hang out with the person I originally borrowed it from.


Rorshack didn't fail, he died being killed by Jon which is not exactly a fair comparison of skill.

Rorschach failed miserably. Let's run through Rorschach's list of failures, shall we?

1) Rorschach was born of failure: Rorschach was created by Kovacs after he failed to save the little girl. Kovacs failure caused him to create Rorschach.

2) Rorschach failed to evade arrest: Rorschach was captured quite easily, and Ozymandias played him like a sucker.

3) Rorschach failed to realize what was going on: Rorschach was still chasing the whole cape killer theory when Nite Owl finally made the (somewhat obvious) connection between Pyramid and Ozymandias.

4) Failed to beat Ozymandias: Ozy was just way out of Rorschach's weight class. He wasn't even capable of sneaking up on Ozy, despite the number of times Ozy gave Rorschach his back.

5) Rorschach failed to maintain control of Kovacs: Possibly his biggest failure. By the end of the story, Kovacs had started to reassert himself. The first crack was when he couldn't bring himself to kill the land lady. When Doc Manhattan confronts him at the end, notice how he finally has a facial expression for the first time. Notice how the mask comes off. Notice how he doesn't even try fighting back against Doc. That's because it's no longer Rorschach. Kovacs is the person who dies there, R. The enormity of the situation has broken Rorschach the same way it broke the Comedian. I think that there's supposed to be a parallel between Ozy killing the Comedian and Doc Manhattan killing Rorschach.


His message still got out ( What Ozymundis was up to ) I'm sure watergate would have looked like a conspiracy story if printed in lefty pubsu, but look it happened. The Idea is that Rorshack got the truth out there, in his own nutty way, not that he failed.

You completely ignored my third points. Besides the obvious bias of the paper printing it and Rorschach not being the best witness, Rorschach didn't have the entire plan. What's going to be published? Ozymandias was behind Doc Manhattan's departure, Comedian's murder, and he framed Rorschach for killing Moloch. That's it. How do you get "created an alien to kill millions of New Yorkers" out of that? There's really no connection.


Anyway, yes i read it and i think that the point of that matter is that Ozy wasn't so smart he underestimated rorshack and his plan is going to fail becuase of that , thus all his work was in vain.

Logos

While I think that the intended purpose of the last panel of the book was to convey a sense that his plan failed, if you stop and think about it that seems unlikely. Rorschach didn't have enough info to really expose Ozy. At best, Ozy goes away for the murder of Moloch and the Comedian. That's all he can hope to do.


Ozymandias's plan was in vain because eventually people will go back to their old behaviors. The peace he sacrificed four million lives for can't last forever. Ultimately the only thing Ozy won was a reprieve. He knew it, though he didn't want to admit it, at the end of the story.

I agree there. Still, he has his reprieve and he's one of the most powerful men alive. If he's lucky and the Rorschach info doesn't destroy him (I don't think it can destroy his plan, but it's just barely possible that it could destroy Ozy himself), he'll be able to build a foundation for the future. It gave the world hope (as demonstrated by the Millenium perfume).

Jack_Banzai
2006-11-04, 07:14 AM
This is the entire point of the ambiguous ending: we are left to draw our own conclusions. Obviously each of you have found an ending that makes sense to you personally.

I am happy leaving it ambiguous. For me it was the journey, not the destination.

storybookknight
2006-11-06, 10:49 PM
Well said, Jack.

Logos7
2006-11-15, 11:40 PM
Well if Rorshack Failed what the Hell did Jon do?

Here's a guy with Omni powers who failed on almost all those counts and at the end cops out.

But hey to each their own

L

xv bones
2006-11-16, 10:08 AM
yah its my new obession...i finally finished it.

but i have a question

WAS THE BULLET REALLY CAUGHT or was it some sort of magic trick...say did he wear bullet proof armor and palm a spare bullet so he could create the illusion he caught the bullet....any thoughts?


He caught the bullet.

There's no reason for him to pull off an elaborate magic trick just in case Laurie would ever happen to send a bullet at her.

It does not make sense for the plot or character to say or show that he was capable of an action and then not pull it off.
It is, as they say, inconsistent with his character.

xv bones
2006-11-16, 10:25 AM
I'm not even sure about the diary being enough to stop him. My points:

a) The New Frontiersman is a nutty right-wing publication, blatantly racist and anti-semitic. Who is going to believe them?

Lemme see. How many people listen to the Rush Limbaugh show again?


b) Rorschach was clearly out of his mind. Who is going to believe him?

Or read books by Anne Coulter?


c) How much info did Rorschach really have? He knew Ozy had killed the Comedian, killed Moloch, orchestrated Doc Manhattan's departure, and framed him for Moloch's murder. That's pretty much it. Rorschach didn't have even the faintest inkling of what was going to happen in New York.

Re-read the damn book.
Before they go after Adrian Veidt, BEFORE, he finishes his diary and mails it.
At that point, the only thing he DOES NOT HAVE is precisely WHY Veidt is doing this.
He has EVERYTHING ELSE.

And the sum f'n total of Veidt's 'brave new world' revolves around and relies wholly on nobody knowing anything about the alien or his plot or any of it.

Every human on the planet must think that they are under threat from an interdimensional menace whatever, or else the plan fails.

And Rorschach, an extremely well-known anti-hero psychotic, has in his diary enough evidence to unmake it.

Evidence of a horrific crime committed but no context to explain it.


My best guess is even if they did publish the diary, no one but a few conspiracy buffs will believe the fact that Ozy was involved with what few crimes he's accused of. And even they probably won't link Ozy to the attack on New York.

The whole thing highlights exactly what a huge failure Rorschach was.

.....k.

wtg.

Dawnstrider_Moogle
2006-11-17, 04:11 AM
While I do think it can go either way, and while I'm okay with leaving it at that, I do have an interesting point of evidence for Ozy's plan ultimately failing that no one brought up yet.

The key is the Black Freighter story - which, holy crap, how awesome a device was that? Showing the text of the Black Freighter book over panels from the regular story...so awesome, plus it was a creepy/cool sequence all on its own.

Anyway, near the end Ozy says he dreams of a big black ship - the Black Freighter. In the Black Freighter story, the main character murders for what he thinks is the right reason, but which actually isn't. Then the Black Freighter comes to get him. Ditto for Ozy! Dun dun dun!

Grazzt
2006-11-17, 11:36 AM
Re-read the damn book.
Before they go after Adrian Veidt, BEFORE, he finishes his diary and mails it.
At that point, the only thing he DOES NOT HAVE is precisely WHY Veidt is doing this.
He has EVERYTHING ELSE.

No, he doesn't. He knows a) Adrian Veidt killed The Comedian; b) Adrian Veidt had Moloch killed and framed Roschach for the crime; c) Adrian was actually responsible for the cancer cases that caused Doc Manhattan's departure; d) The Comedian was killed after visiting an island, where he saw something that rattled him badly; e) Adrian had faked his own assassination attempt; and f) Adrian Veidt was using a subsidiary named Pyramid to finance his illegal activities

The rest, and most important part, of the scheme is explained by Ozymandias in the next chapter. If they had a clue to Ozymandias was going to try and psi-nuke New York, don't you think that they would have warned some people before setting off after him? And would he have even bothered to storm off the way he did at the end if enough evidence to link Ozymandias to the alien was already in his notebook?


And the sum f'n total of Veidt's 'brave new world' revolves around and relies wholly on nobody knowing anything about the alien or his plot or any of it.

Every human on the planet must think that they are under threat from an interdimensional menace whatever, or else the plan fails.

And Rorschach, an extremely well-known anti-hero psychotic, has in his diary enough evidence to unmake it.

Rorschach's diary has enough evidence to put away Ozymandias for life (assuming that the New Frontiersman takes it seriously and prints it, and assuming that they're taken seriously, and assuming that Ozymandias doesn't manage to destroy them somehow). It does not, however, contain any evidence linking Ozymandias to the alien.

I also have some problems with your comparison of the New Frontiersman with Limbaugh and Coulter. Limbaugh and Coulter are both big names, while we've seen that the New Frontiersman is quite a little paper. I mean, look at how shoddily it's made in the sample section (you know, the one with the article "Justice, Like The Hawk, Must Sometimes Go Masked").


Anyway, near the end Ozy says he dreams of a big black ship - the Black Freighter. In the Black Freighter story, the main character murders for what he thinks is the right reason, but which actually isn't. Then the Black Freighter comes to get him. Ditto for Ozy! Dun dun dun!

I think we can all agree that no matter what happens, Ozy's not getting a happy ending. Even assuming his plan works, he's destroyed his soul in order to get it. He's murdered everyone who is close to him, right down to his pet cat Bubastis, and alienated all those whom he hasn't murdered. He's going to spend the rest of his life completely tormented by guilt that he's killed so many people and by the fear that it's all been for nothing. And he's going to have to work like the devil to ensure that the peace lasts. He may even have to engineer more attacks in the future.

I think there's a far more sinister sign than the Black Freighter coming for Ozy, though, and that is the ketchup on the guy's shirt at the very end. It makes the same bloody smiley face that the Watchmen started with, which I think implies that Ozy is going to have to do more killing in order to keep his ruse a secret. Possibly starting with the New Frontiersman workers.

xv bones
2006-11-18, 11:29 PM
You, on the other hand, do your homework and don't get cowed by boldface print.


No, he doesn't. He knows a) Adrian Veidt killed The Comedian; b) Adrian Veidt had Moloch killed and framed Roschach for the crime; c) Adrian was actually responsible for the cancer cases that caused Doc Manhattan's departure; d) The Comedian was killed after visiting an island, where he saw something that rattled him badly; e) Adrian had faked his own assassination attempt; and f) Adrian Veidt was using a subsidiary named Pyramid to finance his illegal activities

The rest, and most important part, of the scheme is explained by Ozymandias in the next chapter. If they had a clue to Ozymandias was going to try and psi-nuke New York, don't you think that they would have warned some people before setting off after him? And would he have even bothered to storm off the way he did at the end if enough evidence to link Ozymandias to the alien was already in his notebook?

You're right and I'm wrong.

The most important thing that Rorschach's diary would give away is that Adrian Veidt amounts to a mass murderer on a fairly sizeable scale, with no connection to the missing artists or the 'alien attack.'

However, Veidt seems almost single-handedly responsible for the current theme and imagery of this 'brave new world'.

It could damage him - his conscience, his extremely battered soul - or he could... erm.. see below.




I also have some problems with your comparison of the New Frontiersman with Limbaugh and Coulter. Limbaugh and Coulter are both big names, while we've seen that the New Frontiersman is quite a little paper. I mean, look at how shoddily it's made in the sample section (you know, the one with the article "Justice, Like The Hawk, Must Sometimes Go Masked").But the concepts explored and ideals expressed in The New Frontiersman are identical-though-a-bit-more extreme than Limbaugh and Coulter's.
(Coulter, who once suggested on national television that we should invade Middle Eastern nations, kill their leaders, and convert them all to Christianity.)

No sarcasm, no irony, things I've heard the two of the above say are really only SLIGHTLY less ridiculous than the stuff shown in the New Frontiersman.
The New Frontiersman is a very clearly fascist rag - bigoted, rascist, so far to the right I'm amazed the editor has a left hand - made on the cheap and with limited readership, but it's well-known.

Nova even makes a point of mentioning that Kovacs' apartment was overloaded with issues.

Yes, attacks on Veidt by such a periodical would likely get attacked themselves, or worse, not paid attention to, but the thing about the media is that anything with any sort of audience usually manages to affect their audiences' perception.

Veidt would be put in a bad situation - if he destroys them, it could make it look like he's trying to shut up the truth, if he doesn't, he could appear as if he's trying to ignore the truth.

Veidt might be forced to kill more of his own people to keep it all shut up.

Then again, he's shown no shyness for killing people when it's served his purpose, and is, even discounting the Manhattan event, easily the single most f'n terryfing non-anti-hero-hero I have ever come across.



I think we can all agree that no matter what happens, Ozy's not getting a happy ending. Even assuming his plan works, he's destroyed his soul in order to get it. He's murdered everyone who is close to him, right down to his pet cat Bubastis, and alienated all those whom he hasn't murdered. He's going to spend the rest of his life completely tormented by guilt that he's killed so many people and by the fear that it's all been for nothing. And he's going to have to work like the devil to ensure that the peace lasts. He may even have to engineer more attacks in the future.

I think there's a far more sinister sign than the Black Freighter coming for Ozy, though, and that is the ketchup on the guy's shirt at the very end. It makes the same bloody smiley face that the Watchmen started with, which I think implies that Ozy is going to have to do more killing in order to keep his ruse a secret. Possibly starting with the New Frontiersman workers.See above.
He also may need to kill everyone remotely connected to the cancer victims, the artists, your neighbor's dog that keeps him up at night by yapping away...

Veidt as an iconic hero was perhaps the best villian I've ever seen.

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-11-24, 05:51 PM
I would think that since no one would collaborate with the diary's story that even if their is enough evidence in it, it might become a temporary scandel, but be easily pushed aside and spun as propaganda

bosssmiley
2006-11-25, 12:46 AM
Ozy apparently didn't think past his great solution, though.

Didn't he? Then how were his companies so perfectly placed to capitalise on the mood of optimism and expectancy that followed the execution of his plan and the averting of a Hot War? Contrast the adverts ("Nostalgia" vs "Millennium"). Re-read the sections about the converging graph lines of catastrophe and the Veidt Method. The apocalypse squid was only an element of Ozymandius' greater plan. :smallwink: