What's appropriate CR for a party of 3 level 10s

[Mystic Muse]

In our party we have a homebrew Human Paladin(The Paladin is homebrew not the human) An Elven ranger and a Half dragon Monk who got his la Reduced by one. (I could have sworn it was reduced to one though) all ECL 10. We're going through Red hand of doom. (The DM was surprised we're ECL 10 for some reason. He's the one who leveled us up so don't blame us.)

what's a generally appropriate CR for a group like this? I'm wondering because we've been plowing through encounters and I'm sick of it. I feel safe and that isn't a good thing. I want to suggest to my DM some better monsters but I need some clue of what level of monsters would be appropriate.

[Flickerdart]

3 level 10 PCs is a 9.2 level party. Since an equivalent CR is intended to be a reasonably easy fight, the party should be able to face two or three CR11 challenges per day and actually expend a reasonable amount of effort. A CR13 challenge, if it was the only one in the day, would be a reasonable and tough fight.

Theoretically. CR is rather poor as a system.

[Weezer]

Hmm that seems rather high for RHoD, IIRC it was intended for 4 lvl 5-6 players. No wonder you blow through the encounters.

[Eldariel]

3 level 10 PCs is a 9.2 level party. Since an equivalent CR is intended to be a reasonably easy fight, the party should be able to face two or three CR11 challenges per day and actually expend a reasonable amount of effort. A CR13 challenge, if it was the only one in the day, would be a reasonable and tough fight.

Theoretically. CR is rather poor as a system.

In other words, if we analyse the party we'll notice they've got three warriors and no spellcasters so encounters involving e.g. creatures with weak Will-saves or suspectible to specific caster strategies such as various Giants or Monstrous Humanoids or even Big T, your party is much weaker than average. In such cases, they may have to deal with stuff one CR lower than normal (though Core Brawler CRs tend to be too high anyways).

On the other hand, if they face things vulnerable to ranged attacks and specifically geared against casters (some things whose main powers are negating spells and such, such as those whatever spelleater things), they should perform quite well, perhaps even one CR higher, though with that group, I'd find it unlikely.


But yeah, ECL 9 party is a good estimation; they can take on things about as an ECL 9 party of 4 would.

[Mystic Muse]

Hmm that seems rather high for RHoD, IIRC it was intended for 4 lvl 5-6 players. No wonder you blow through the encounters.

The campaign is supposed to go from level 6-12 though. Not be done by only level 6 PCs

Okay, I'll mention the CR to my DM.

[Eldariel]

The campaign is supposed to go from level 6-12 though. Not be done by only level 6 PCs

Okay, I'll mention the CR to my DM.

Mention the fact that depending on feat choices and build, the same CR 6 can be a TPK or a no-damage walkover. Optimization really plays a huge role in how tough any creature of a given CR is, as does tactical playing. So yeah... RHoD is a bit easy by default, but it's easy enough to build into a more dangerous experience.

[evil-frosty]

What part of the mod are you at? There are a lot of mooks in that mod and it takes awhile to get to the truly tough opponents.

[Mystic Muse]

What part of the mod are you at? There are a lot of mooks in that mod and it takes awhile to get to the truly tough opponents.

we're in the black fens and have just recently killed a Green dragonspawn that killed some NPC and his giant owl.

[evil-frosty]

So you really havent gotten to the bosses yet, I dont count Koth or Ozy as bosses really.

[Mystic Muse]

So you really havent gotten to the bosses yet, I dont count Koth or Ozy as bosses really.

Was Koth the Chimera?

Yeah, him and Ozzy were 1 round KOs. That's what finally convinced my DM that I shouldn't use a charging build. Since then NOTHING has been anything resembling challenge. And to be fair, one was a critical hit and the other was a smite evil attack with a decent power attack penalty.

[Eldariel]

Was Koth the Chimera?

Yeah, him and Ozzy were 1 round KOs. That's what finally convinced my DM that I shouldn't use a charging build. Since then NOTHING has been anything resembling challenge. And to be fair, one was a critical hit and the other was a smite evil attack.

Koth is the Wizard at the Vraath Keep.

[Mystic Muse]

Koth is the Wizard at the Vraath Keep.

Ah. I believe he died immediately to our Monk.

[evil-frosty]

Well what kind if wizard doesnt have ranks in concentration? And anyway a lot of the battles can go horribly wrong if you need examples please read Saphs campaign journal on the mod, in it I believe were 32 character deaths.

[Mystic Muse]

Well what kind if wizard doesnt have ranks in concentration? And anyway a lot of the battles can go horribly wrong if you need examples please read Saphs campaign journal on the mod, in it I believe were 32 character deaths.

The Monk killed him during his villainous monologue.

[krossbow]

I'd have to know the homebrewed difference between the Paladin and a 3.5 paladin.


But given how your a low tier group, i'd reccomend an 8-8.5 encounter for a 4 per day setup.

[Eldariel]

The Monk killed him during his villainous monologue.

Heh. If your opponents get stuck in the Evil Overlord Fail tropes, that might explain a thing or two.

[Mystic Muse]

I'd have to know the homebrewed difference between the Paladin and a 3.5 paladin.


Surrealistik's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133737) Paladin. This one is actually worth taking all the way until level 20.

good point about the Evil overlord thing Eldariel.

[Saph]

The campaign is supposed to go from level 6-12 though. Not be done by only level 6 PCs

You're under two major misunderstandings here.

First, the 6-12 figure on Red Hand of Doom is a typo. If you look inside the book (and read the interviews with the designers), you'll see that the actual intended level range is from 5 to 10, maybe 5 to 11.

Next, when an adventure says that it "goes from levels 5 to 10", that does not mean "start at any level between 5 and 10". It means that you're supposed to start at level 5 and reach level 10.

You should have been level 5 when you fought Koth and Ozyrrandion, and level 6 when you fought the Greenspawn Razorfiend. Instead you're level 10, meaning that you're a 10th-level party fighting 5th- and 6th-level challenges, which is ridiculously over-levelled to the point where I think I'd have trouble staying awake if I was one of the PCs.

I'm not quite sure how your DM has managed to miss the fact that you're so much higher-level than you should be - the module makes it really really really obvious that you should be starting at level 5, so it sounds like he just didn't read the first chapter of the book.

[Optimystik]

Instead you're level 10, meaning that you're a 10th-level party fighting 5th- and 6th-level challenges, which is ridiculously over-levelled to the point where I think I'd have trouble staying awake if I was one of the PCs.

Some people enjoy Curbstomp Battles (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CurbStompBattle) :smalltongue: Nothing wrong with it.

And I'd say the fact that the monk was one-shotting things should have been a bit of a hint for their group :smallwink:

[IonDragon]

You've got a Half-Dragon Monk in your party. Plus a Paladin and a Ranger, no arcanist. You're not exactly high on the power curve. I'd estimate a CR appropriate encounter at about CR 7-8 depending on how you play.

A level appropriate challenge should deplete 1/4 of a 4 person, slightly optimized party's resources.

[Saph]

Some people enjoy Curbstomp Battles (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CurbStompBattle) :smalltongue: Nothing wrong with it.

Original post:


what's a generally appropriate CR for a group like this? I'm wondering because we've been plowing through encounters and I'm sick of it. I feel safe and that isn't a good thing.

[Dr Bwaa]

Saph is correct on all counts*.

In other news, here's something (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm) that may make your life easier. Put in what you're facing on the left side and what the party is (3 ECL 10 in this case) on the right. Also show it to your DM; it should help him see that you're way over-leveled.
*As pertains to this thread, this time :p

[Mystic Muse]

You should have been level 5 when you fought Koth and Ozyrrandion, and level 6 when you fought the Greenspawn Razorfiend. Instead you're level 10, meaning that you're a 10th-level party fighting 5th- and 6th-level challenges, which is ridiculously over-levelled to the point where I think I'd have trouble staying awake if I was one of the PCs.

We were level 5 when we started. The greenspawn razorfiend was before we were level 10. It still died before it got to deal more than 13 damage though. Somehow we leveled from level 8 (When we faced the razorfiend) to level 10 in one session (or level 8 for the Monk) Something about how my guy got a good diplomacy roll.

But we should have been level 6 when we faced him?

[Flickerdart]

We were level 5 when we started. The greenspawn razorfiend was before we were level 10. It still died before it got to deal more than 13 damage though. Somehow we leveled from level 8 (When we faced the razorfiend) to level 10 in one session (or level 8 for the Monk) Something about how my guy got a good diplomacy roll.

But we should have been level 6 when we faced him?
You can't gain more than one level per dose of XP.

[Mystic Muse]

You can't gain more than one level per dose of XP.

My DM's overruled rules before. He probably decided to do so again. In fact he overruled the "enlarge person only functions on humanoids" rule that same session.

[AslanCross]

Red Hand of Doom, as published, generally assumes a party of very low optimization. Even the later bosses have double digit HP. I had to bump up the power curve significantly for my party, though if you have 3 party members with lousy optimization, I think it's more a problem of the DM not really paying attention to your level. (As you did say he was surprised you're at 10. Whenever my players level up, they kind of make a big deal about it.)

[Mystic Muse]

(As you did say he was surprised you're at 10. Whenever my players level up, they kind of make a big deal about it.)

He was surprised that we got enough XP to level up twice. Not that we were level 10. I wasn't ecstatic about leveling because I didn't know exactly what I was getting and I found out that I'm way behind in damage output compared to the other players. Not really a problem due to a new ability but it's still a little irritating when I gave up my other character because he was doing too much and now the other players aren't dealing quite as much but more than enough to kill pretty much anybody we come across.

Out of curiosity what is the rule for getting enough XP to level up twice? I can't seem to find it.

[herrhauptmann]

We were level 5 when we started. The greenspawn razorfiend was before we were level 10. It still died before it got to deal more than 13 damage though. Somehow we leveled from level 8 (When we faced the razorfiend) to level 10 in one session (or level 8 for the Monk) Something about how my guy got a good diplomacy roll.

But we should have been level 6 when we faced him?

ECL 6 != Level 6.
Your halfdragon has a LA of +3 right? So he should've been level 3 at an ECL 6 fight.

[AslanCross]

Out of curiosity what is the rule for getting enough XP to level up twice? I can't seem to find it.

PHB p. 58.
EXPERIENCE AND LEVELS, Advancing A Level, second paragraph.

[Mystic Muse]

ECL 6 != Level 6.
Your halfdragon has a LA of +3 right? So he should've been level 3 at an ECL 6 fight.

Actually the DM gave him LA+2 instead.

and I checked the PHB. I'll inform my DM of that. Thought it was in the DMG for some reason. I won't force him to use that rule though. I'll just remind him that it exists.

[Saph]

We were level 5 when we started. The greenspawn razorfiend was before we were level 10. It still died before it got to deal more than 13 damage though. Somehow we leveled from level 8 (When we faced the razorfiend) to level 10 in one session (or level 8 for the Monk) Something about how my guy got a good diplomacy roll.

But we should have been level 6 when we faced him?

Well, that explains things a bit. Basically, your DM is doing something REALLY weird with experience. If you fight every encounter between Chapter 1 and Chapter 2, you should gain about enough XP to go from level 5 to level 6 by the time you reach the razorfiend.

Instead you're level 10. This means either:

a) You've fought about 30-40 extra encounters between the campaign start and the Blackfens, ie the length of an entire campaign.
b) Your DM is giving you about 5x as many experience points as normal.

I'm suspecting it's the second, given what you said about going up two levels in one go.

[Eldariel]

Well, that explains things a bit. Basically, your DM is doing something REALLY weird with experience. If you fight every encounter between Chapter 1 and Chapter 2, you should gain about enough XP to go from level 5 to level 6 by the time you reach the razorfiend.

Instead you're level 10. This means either:

a) You've fought about 30-40 extra encounters between the campaign start and the Blackfens, ie the length of an entire campaign.
b) Your DM is giving you about 5x as many experience points as normal.

I'm suspecting it's the second, given what you said about going up two levels in one go.

Even more than that; as you gain levels, the XP you gain per encounter decreases so the encounters in the books would be giving you virtually no XP by now. As such, the XP would basically come purely from encounters outside the campaign itself, as the campaign encounters are giving you under half the expected experience on many points.

[true_shinken]

A common case of a DM unfamiliar with the rules...

[taltamir]

ask not what is an appropriate encounter for A party...
Ask what is an appropriate encounter for MY party!

The appropriateness of an encounter depends entirely on the players who encounter it, their op-fu, their cheese tolerance, and their tactics.

CR has nothing to do with it.