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veovius
2010-05-10, 06:12 PM
I have a lvl 1 PC who has taken defending to a new level... he's a warforged fighter with adamantine body, and a tower shield. What he does is stand in front of the other players and crouch behind his tower shield, granting him full cover. Do the other players behind him also get any kind of bonus?

Dragon Elite
2010-05-10, 06:26 PM
Se, your DM would have to rule this in. I would just make him get powerful build when using his tower shield(treated as a large creature) so it would work. Get small mirrors on sticks. Magic missile. :smallbiggrin:

Last Laugh
2010-05-10, 06:37 PM
I have a lvl 1 PC who has taken defending to a new level... he's a warforged fighter with adamantine body, and a tower shield. What he does is stand in front of the other players and crouch behind his tower shield, granting him full cover. Do the other players behind him also get any kind of bonus?


If line of sight is completely blocked, a character can’t cast spells
or use ranged weapons against the target. If it’s partially blocked,
such as by the corner of a building, spells work normally but the
target’s AC increases due to the cover.

Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with
cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However,
such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft
cover allow you to make a Hide check.
Total Cover: If you don’t have line of effect to your target (for
instance, if he is completely behind a high wall), he is considered to
have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target
that has total cover.
Keep in mind that these do not apply against spells, according to the tower shield. I personally throw that ruling out the window and decide on a case by case basis if a spell hits a target behind a tower shield. (Fireball yes, Magic Missile yes, Melf's Acid Arrow no)

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that
indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid
barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not
blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a
spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect
Text text text text. sorry for the big wall.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-10, 06:38 PM
Relevant rules:


To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).


Total Cover

If you don’t have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover.

Based on this, the tower shield blocks line of effect for most things (things that target the shield have line of effect to the wielder, and affect the wielder). This would mean anything directly behind the shield would have LoE blocked as well. This would work both ways, so people behind the shield guy would have their LoE blocked too.

If it wasn't total, then the people behind would have cover (this provides cover, but it's not total). Incidentally, if the character did not have a tower shield, this would still apply.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-05-10, 06:41 PM
It's basically a thin 5' line of wall. Treat it like such for the purposes of adjudicating effects.

veovius
2010-05-10, 07:15 PM
Actually, I'm the DM on this one :P

Should I give the players behind shield guy total or soft cover? And I assume this applies to the bad guys as well?

QuantumSteve
2010-05-10, 10:15 PM
It all depends on how a Tower Shield works.
If a Tower Shield is basically a movable piece of wall that you can hide behind for cover, then any thing directly behind the wall has total cover against anything directly in front of it.
If, however, the Tower Shield is not a wall but a shield that can grant total cover to it's wielder, then only the wielder gets total cover. Anything behind the wielder gets soft cover.

Personally, based on the description of the Tower Shield, I would use the second example.

Sinfonian
2010-05-11, 01:17 AM
If, however, the Tower Shield is not a wall but a shield that can grant total cover to it's wielder, then only the wielder gets total cover. Anything behind the wielder gets soft cover.

I second this opinion.

Hendel
2010-05-11, 01:36 AM
Based on this, the tower shield blocks line of effect for most things (things that target the shield have line of effect to the wielder, and affect the wielder)


Line of Effect is NOT broken by a tower shield. Line of Sight, however, may be broken. To block Line of Effect you have to have a solid barrier with less than one square foot of opening (PHB p.176). I can still drop my Fireball behind the shield unless it happens to block the entire passage way. I might not be able to hit the person behind the shield with a targeted spell as I do not have line of Sight to him, unless you also consider his shield to be part of him (which I would).

If you did decide to grant more than just soft cover to the warforged's allies, remember that it goes both ways. If I can't see you, you can't see me. None of this, I peak over the warforged's shoulder then duck back down. You are either back there and protected or you are back there and present yourself as a target so that you can strike the enemies.

It's easiest just to stick with the soft cover for ranged attacks and leave it at that in my opinion.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-11, 02:09 AM
Line of Effect is NOT broken by a tower shield. Line of Sight, however, may be broken. To block Line of Effect you have to have a solid barrier with less than one square foot of opening (PHB p.176). I can still drop my Fireball behind the shield unless it happens to block the entire passage way. I might not be able to hit the person behind the shield with a targeted spell as I do not have line of Sight to him, unless you also consider his shield to be part of him (which I would).

You are quite wrong my friend

Total Cover
If you don’t have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover.

A tower shield can be used to grant total cover, ergo it blocks line of effect when used in that fashion.

Now a fireball is a spread effect, a spread goes around corners and your little 1ft rule thing applies. If your hiding behind a 15ft wall and you cast a fireball in front of the base its 20ft radius would go around the top and burn you.

Now cones are either bursts or emanations[usually] and don't go around corners like a spread does, a tower shield could provide cover to the user in those situations. A line spell such as lighting bolt STOPS when it hits total cover. So a party could hide behind a fighter using a tower shield to block such an effect.

Ozymandias9
2010-05-11, 02:26 AM
Edit: never mind-- vastly misread another post

veovius
2010-05-11, 07:46 AM
Heh. I had a talk with my player, and he was wondering why a bad guy 50ft in front of the shield would get the same soft cover bonus as the person 5ft behind the shield wielder. After a long discussion about angles and firing from behind cover, it boiled down to this :

"I think I'm missing something fundamental here, and I just figured out what it is. I'm trying to apply reality to D&D, and obviously that doesn't work." :smallbiggrin:

I AM correct here though, right? If you look at it vertically, then technically the bottom corner of the person behind the shield, and the top corner of the person in front of the shield, are blocked by the shield itself. Therefore, both targets have soft cover against each other, be it 5 ft away, or 50 ft away.

stenver
2010-05-11, 07:53 AM
Yes you are indeed.
I would rule that other players can hide directly behind the player with tower shield, using a 5 foot step/swift action/move action(i would probably go with swift)

But without the usage of swift action, they will only have soft cover.

Hendel
2010-05-11, 09:45 AM
You are quite wrong my friend


A tower shield can be used to grant total cover, ergo it blocks line of effect when used in that fashion.

Now a fireball is a spread effect, a spread goes around corners and your little 1ft rule thing applies. If your hiding behind a 15ft wall and you cast a fireball in front of the base its 20ft radius would go around the top and burn you.

Now cones are either bursts or emanations[usually] and don't go around corners like a spread does, a tower shield could provide cover to the user in those situations. A line spell such as lighting bolt STOPS when it hits total cover. So a party could hide behind a fighter using a tower shield to block such an effect.

No, I do not think that I am wrong, rather that we are looking at this from different directions. When I say something blocks Line of Effect, I am considering that no spell can affect the person who is behind that something. The tower shield entry says that a targeted spell will affect that person.

SRD says

"Shield, Tower
This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so. The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding."

I also understand that a spread spell cast to one side of the tower shield will "wrap around" and affect the person behind the shield. I also know that a burst spell with a big enough area placed behind the person behind the tower shield, say to his left or right about 5 feet back, would also encompass the tower shield bearer.

So if I can affect the person behind the tower shield in at least these ways I am not really calling that as "breaking the Line of Effect." Directly yes, in some ways, but indirectly, no in many ways.

Now if the same person was behind a Wall of Force and the wall extended from floor to cieling and wall to wall, that person would have broken Line of Effect. If an archer stands behind an arrow slit that is less than 1 sq ft, then he too would break Line of Effect.

So I am not disagreeing with the rules that you site about tower shields granting total cover and how if you do not have Line of Effect, then your opponent has total cover from you. I just disagree with the interpretaion of the circumstances and exactly what "breaking" Line of Effect entails.

Person_Man
2010-05-11, 11:40 AM
As a house rule I treat it as both a shield and a movable wall. It provides you and everyone directly behind you with Total Cover, and everyone directly in front of you has total cover from the opposite direction. You can also choose to change the facing of the tower shield when you move in any way. I find it makes sword and board slightly more useful.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-11, 12:11 PM
Line of Effect is NOT broken by a tower shield.
The SRD disagrees with you.

Total Cover

If you don’t have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover.
Total Cover = No LoE. There are exceptions for the wielder of the shield, but when you use a tower shield to get total cover, LoE blockage is part and parcel of the deal.

You may be able to get around this by aiming past the shield above or below it, but the shield provides total cover. Total cover blocks LoE.

If A=B, and B=C, then A=C.

reefwood
2010-05-11, 12:47 PM
I agree with the comments that say total cover for the wielder and soft cover for those behind the wielder - with the stated exception for targeted spells - and that it works both ways for allies and enemies. If the wielder gains total cover, then the wielder's enemies have total cover from the wielder too. A reasonable house rule might be slightly improved soft cover, so a +6 soft cover bonus to AC instead of +4.

The way I see it, based on rules and reality, is that a tower shield is a really big shield, but it isn't 5 ft x 5 ft. It's big enough to hide the entire wielder, but it doesn't block the entire square, so therefore, it doesn't affect others.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-11, 04:57 PM
The SRD disagrees with you.

Total Cover = No LoE. There are exceptions for the wielder of the shield, but when you use a tower shield to get total cover, LoE blockage is part and parcel of the deal.

You may be able to get around this by aiming past the shield above or below it, but the shield provides total cover. Total cover blocks LoE.

If A=B, and B=C, then A=C.

As you say Line of Effect is blocked except in the instances that are except from the tower shield. Its important to remember because if you take cover from say a lightning bolt behind a tower shield the bolt STOPS upon impact with the barrier.