[D&D 3.5] Grappling Fun

[Nihb]

Hello there. I'm pretty sure I can get the answer to some of my questions on the dreadful Grapple from the great men and women from this forum.

I've looked for the "Rules of the Game" on Wizards's 3.5 archives, read the entire section in the Player's Handbook, the Equipement chapter and some other sources, but I still have some issues with some parts of it.

We started a new campain, last friday, and I decided to play a grappler. The rules are quite simple, once you sit and read them. Maybe I'm wrong on some bits so, I'll ask my questions first, and give some examples of what I do.

First question: the armor spikes. It's one of the problems I have. The description, per SRD, says that the spikes "allow you to deal extra piercing damage [...] on a successful grapple attack". As I see it, a successful grapple attack would be any time you make an opposed grapple check against your opponent and succeed, am I wrong? If I am, when does it damages?

If I'm right, my other question is, do you add your strength damage to it?

Here's an example of how we've dealt with it so far. This is not a thread to optimize my character, but knowing the correct rules of the game would help me.

First round, the opponent is close enough from me, so, I make a first attack roll to touch it. Having a +1 gauntlet, I use it to enhance my touch attack roll.

As it connects, I initiate a grapple. If I win, I deal my normal unarmed damage (+1 from the gauntlet) and move into the opponent's square so I can stay in grapple.

Then, as I have a +10 base attack, I have a second attack that I use to pin my opponent. So, opposed roll, I win, it's pinned. At this point, I applied my 1d6 piercing damage from the armor spikes.

The next turn, the opponent is still pinned, so my Earth's Embrace feat lets me deal 1d12 (Complete Warrior), as I took my -4 to AC when I started the pin. Next, I use my two attacks to grapple the pain out of it, and use the "Damage your opponent" option. For each successful grapple, I deal my unarmed damage (without the gauntlet's enhancement since the damage I deal is "equivalent to an unarmed strike", not an unarmed strike) and the 1d6 from my Spiked Armor.

So, all-knowing crowd of the GitP, am I right or am I humiliatingly wrong about how we deal with the dreaded Grapple?

Big thanks!

[SardonAcropolis]

The order goes like so:

1- Your opponent is entitled to an attack of opportunity. If it hits then you immediately fail your attempt and must engage another grapple on a subsequent round.

2- If your opponent fails to strike you (whether or not it damages you, as stated by the PHB 3.5e) then you can proceed to make a melee touch attack against your target to initiate the grapple. It is, to my knowledge, at this point that you actually begin a grapple once you succeed with this attack.

3- Would be to connect the grapple to the end of the round and entitle you to your various 'in-grapple' options on your next round.

So, when it comes to armor. I would say that it would deal that damage at step three (or what you had said in your post) because that would be when the act of pulling the opponent into your space would be successful but not dealing the unarmed strike damage.

Although, i could also see it only being an effective attack if you decide to hold after grappling but that seems pointless since it would be equivalent to making an attack with a light weapon.
And yes, since the act of grappling would be to close the distance with your opponent, you would be using your strength to bring the target closer- so i would apply strength the armor spike damage. You could even argue making it one and a half times str mod if you were using both arms to grapple, similar to wielding a weapon with two hands. *shrugs* Dunno. I'm a pretty open DM. Otherwise, you seem to have it just about right. Hope i might have cleared something up though. It's mainly that I've been a DM for 7 years and have never posted any of my game logic or textbook knowledge onto a sight like this. Thnx for the Op. Cheers!

[Machiavellian]

Ultimate Grapple Optimization-Fu

Illithid

Monster Levels X/Reaping Mauler 5/Cardamine Monk Y

Use your Suped-Up grapple to rip your foe's brains out.

[Choco]

While grappling you can make attacks with light weapons or unarmed strikes, I always just apply the armor damage then.

[Gnaeus]

Ultimate Grapple Optimization-Fu

Illithid

Monster Levels X/Reaping Mauler 5/Cardamine Monk Y

Use your Suped-Up grapple to rip your foe's brains out.

That is terrible grapple fu.

1. Reaping Mauler is a terrible class. You get virtually no bonuses on actually grappling things, and you lose your class abilities if you become large+, which is the easiest way to actually improve your grapple.

2. Monk isn't really much better. You can get free Improved grapple feat, but medium bab and no strength bonuses hurt you. Better off taking barbarian levels and just spending 2 feats on improved grapple.

3. Illithid is also junk for grappling. By the time you finish the racial levels, you will never be able to grapple anything near your ECL.

What you have there is close to a 20 level build (I can't remember the ECL for a Mind Flayer, but it is high.) I promise I would stomp you in a grapple with a 12th level druid (Edit or a Psi Warrior, or Totemist, or Wild Shape Ranger, Cleric, Wizard, Barbarian, etc. It isn't hard to make a better grappler than that).

[Machiavellian]

That is terrible grapple fu.

1. Reaping Mauler is a terrible class. You get virtually no bonuses on actually grappling things, and you lose your class abilities if you become large+, which is the easiest way to actually improve your grapple.

2. Monk isn't really much better. You can get free Improved grapple feat, but medium bab and no strength bonuses hurt you. Better off taking barbarian levels and just spending 2 feats on improved grapple.

3. Illithid is also junk for grappling. By the time you finish the racial levels, you will never be able to grapple anything near your ECL.

What you have there is close to a 20 level build (I can't remember the ECL for a Mind Flayer, but it is high.) I promise I would stomp you in a grapple with a 12th level druid.

You use feats to use your INT score for your BAB

[Gnaeus]

You use feats to use your INT score for your BAB

I use wildshape to get huge size for a +8 bonus and jack my strength into the 30s. Then I use bite of the WereX to add another 6-8 Strength. Lets say you manage to get your int to 34 (Starting stat of 18, +8 illithid, +2 levels, +6 items). That roughly equals my strength, so I have a grapple check 5 points higher than you (Assuming that I am ecl 12, and you are ecl 20. If I am also ECL 20, I have a grapple check 12 points higher than you. Except it is really much higher than that because at that point I have Shapechange.) I have a pet who is either grappling with me, or beating the snot out of you while we grapple. If I pin you, you lose. If you pin me, I activate heart of water and leave the grapple immediately.

Edit: Oh, and you can't extract my brain unless you can reach my head, because I am huge. I might be immune anyway, as a plant.

Mind Flayer is ECL 15. Adding your int bonus just isn't good enough when your grapple build is ECL 20+ monk levels with a bab of +11 and your foe has either a good BAB or Large+ size or both.

[Keld Denar]

Hey, Kinder...OP said NO optimization advice or whatever. Besides, everyone knows the best grappler is a Tashalatoran PsyWar... :smallcool:


Hello there. I'm pretty sure I can get the answer to some of my questions on the dreadful Grapple from the great men and women from this forum.
Welcome, hopefully this'll help! We aim to please.


First question: the armor spikes. It's one of the problems I have. The description, per SRD, says that the spikes "allow you to deal extra piercing damage [...] on a successful grapple attack". As I see it, a successful grapple attack would be any time you make an opposed grapple check against your opponent and succeed, am I wrong? If I am, when does it damages?
Armor Spikes just replace your UAS damage when you inflict damage as part of a grapple, whether that takes place as part of step 3 (see SRD) or as part of the "Damage your Opponent" part of "If you're grappling".

They are really only a minor part of grappling. What you are thinking of is the Constrict (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#constrict) ability of some monsters. Constrict explicitly deals damage whenever you win a grapple check, regardless of who initiated it. The easiest ways to get Constrict are 1 level of Nature's Warrior (Serpent's Coils), the soulmeld Kraken Mantle bound to the arms chakra, and the Crushing Roots of the Mountain stance, a Stone Dragon 3 stance.



If I'm right, my other question is, do you add your strength damage to it?

Yes, you would. You always add Str damage, unless you are explicitly told not to (Flame Blade, Double Toss, etc), or the attack is considered "offhand" and thus only gets half Str damage.


Here's an example of how we've dealt with it so far. This is not a thread to optimize my character, but knowing the correct rules of the game would help me.

First round, the opponent is close enough from me, so, I make a first attack roll to touch it. Having a +1 gauntlet, I use it to enhance my touch attack roll.

So far, so good.


As it connects, I initiate a grapple. If I win, I deal my normal unarmed damage (+1 from the gauntlet) and move into the opponent's square so I can stay in grapple.

Still good.


Then, as I have a +10 base attack, I have a second attack that I use to pin my opponent. So, opposed roll, I win, it's pinned. At this point, I applied my 1d6 piercing damage from the armor spikes.

No, pinning never deals damage unless you have the Constrict ability, detailed above.


The next turn, the opponent is still pinned, so my Earth's Embrace feat lets me deal 1d12 (Complete Warrior), as I took my -4 to AC when I started the pin. Next, I use my two attacks to grapple the pain out of it, and use the "Damage your opponent" option. For each successful grapple, I deal my unarmed damage (without the gauntlet's enhancement since the damage I deal is "equivalent to an unarmed strike", not an unarmed strike) and the 1d6 from my Spiked Armor.

Your armor spike damage would replace your UAS damage in a grapple. If you use the "Damage your opponent" option, upon winning the grapple, you would deal 1d6 + Str + any enhancement bonus on the weapon + any other sources of bonus damage that are applicable (such as Weapon Specialization or such).



So, all-knowing crowd of the GitP, am I right or am I humiliatingly wrong about how we deal with the dreaded Grapple?

Big thanks!

Hopefully this helps. Its a bit confusing, and it sounds like you are treating armor spikes as an almost free Constrict, which its not, but other than that, you are pretty much spot on. Good job!

And yea, as I noted above, the best grappler in terms of damage is gonna be a Tashalatoran Monk2/PsyWarX or Monk2/ArdentY blend. They can get a decently high grapple check as well, but probably not the highest theoretically possible. Still, high enough for most purposes.

[Motion]

Related Question:

Earth's Embrace's damage applies only at the beggining of the round or in every attack made while pinning?

A great way to start a grapple character is:

- Human Fighter lvl 1
- Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Jotunbred.
- Keep a high STR score and some CON and you'll be fine

And there's nothing any creature could do to stop you with your STR+BA+4+4 in grapple checks...

[unre9istered]

I've never read the grapple rules carefully before. They're very unclear.
We've been running like this:

Step 1-Touch Attack (No AoO because you have improve grapple)
Step 2-Opposed Grapple Check (Assuming you win you do 1d4+1 (+1 spiked gauntlet)+1d6(extra piercing from armor spikes)+str mod damage.
Step 3-Pin--Opposed Grapple Check again (no damage from armor spikes because this isn't a 'grapple attack'.

Round 2:
Step 1-Maintain Pin--Opposed Grapple Check (Pinning only lasts 1 round and is not automatically maintained as far as I can tell, but you do add the 1d12 damage.).
Step 2-Hit them--Opposed Grapple Check for 1d4+1 (spiked gauntlet)+1d6(extra piercing from armor spikes)+str mod damage.


The statement that you do extra piercing damage on grapple attacks is why we ruled that you do that in addition to normal unarmed strike damage. Since your unarmed damage includes a +1 from your enchanted spiked gauntlet, the 'equivalent to an unarmed strike' should include that. If it didn't it wouldn't be equivalent, it'd be -1 from your unarmed strike. The rules compendium states that a pinned character is considered to have a Dex of 0 while pinned in addition to the normal penalties. Apparently that's included in 'immobile'.

Note: This was just my group's interpretation of RAW, if you have a source that clarifies the PHB let me know, because that section's confusing.

Edit: Also, Armor spikes include spiked gauntlets, so you don't need to buy those separately.