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Flob
2010-05-11, 02:43 PM
An argument came up between a DM and I recently. Is it possible to put multiple templates on a creature within the rules? I wanted to buy a Magebred Dire Bear Warbeast, but he claims I could only buy a Dire Bear, no secoundary templates. Is this true?

hamishspence
2010-05-11, 02:48 PM
May depend on the DM, but RAW-wise, there is nothing forbidding multiple templates, as long as each template applied is legal.

Buying something with multiple templates- might depend on if the creature exists in the world as the DM has written it. Warbeasts might not routinely be magebred as well in some DM's games. The DM might not use MM2, for example.

Pluto
2010-05-11, 02:48 PM
An argument came up between a DM and I recently. Is it possible to put multiple templates on a creature within the rules? I wanted to buy a Magebred Dire Bear Warbeast, but he claims I could only buy a Dire Bear, no secoundary templates. Is this true?
You're asking one thing and giving an example of another.

You can stack templates (unless, of course, your DM rules otherwise).

That doesn't mean your DM has to let you buy a Dark Lolth-Touched Half-Dragon Phrenic Legendary Octopus, just because you want one.

Escheton
2010-05-11, 02:54 PM
yes you can, though even creatures with 1 template are rare. Finding one with multiple is extremely difficult if not impossible.
Expect dc 35 gather information or knowldge arcane/nature checks or higher.

hamishspence
2010-05-11, 02:57 PM
True- Magebred (in an Eberron setting) is reasonable as the sort of thing you'd find on the market. So is Warbeast. However, some animals might be hard to buy.
If the animal doesn't have a price tag in the PHB, it's up to the DM if you can buy it.

Warbeasts have a basic price based on Hit dice:

50 gp per HD for a warbeast of 3 HD or less. For a 4HD+ warbeast, its 100 gp + 75 gp per HD.

So if the DM allows Warbeasts, you have an approximate price for almost any animal in the game- if you apply the template to it.

Magebred cost twice as much as normal creatures.

So if you go somewhere that sells magebred animals, if the DM allows, some can be Warbeasts as well.

Or vice versa.

Flob
2010-05-11, 02:57 PM
I believe we should use the specific example if "finding it" will be hard.

Magebred- I forget how this is actually done, it's in the Eberron Campaign setting which I don't have access to, can somebody help?

Warbeast- Trained extensively. Not that hard.

Dire- That's just a natural occurance, right?....

Bear- It's a God damn bear.

Sooo.... We do have the MM2, but where could he have found that I can't put on more than one template?

lsfreak
2010-05-11, 03:01 PM
Yea, Dire isn't a template. There's rules that you can't apply the SAME template multiple times (with a few exceptions), but no rule whatsoever that you can't apply different templates. Unless Template A renders the creature incompatible with Template B (due to who it can be applied to, such as type-changing or stat-changing templates).

hamishspence
2010-05-11, 03:01 PM
As far as I can tell, there isn't such a rule for template stacking. However for things like animal companions, you may not have any templates.

Buying animals, might work though.

Dire isn't a template in core- it is a template in 3rd party sources though (the Tome of Horrors books)

Greenish
2010-05-11, 03:06 PM
As far as I can tell, there isn't such a rule for template stacking. However for things like animal companions, you may not have any templates.Are you sure you can't apply acquired templates (namely, handle animal -> warbeast) to the animal companion once you have it?

Jeff240sx
2010-05-11, 03:16 PM
A DM doesn't need to let you buy anything. Just like he doesn't need to have your party Fighter's ever-so-favorite +3 Eager Falchion of Collision.

He could say that you could buy a +2 sword at most.
Any more, and you need to commission someone to enchant it.

Maybe Eager requires a material component worth it's enchantment cost - however, the crafter is fresh out. And that component happens to be on the other side of the globe if you really wanted to get it.
Collision is the same, a hard to get material.

The thing is - while it might not be on the shop's floor, with enough tenacity, enough checks, and more importantly -- enough time; you should be able to have anything you want.

How does this apply?

If you wanted to find a Dire Bearcub, breed it with the help of House Vallhis (or whatever clan in Eberron) until you get a Magebred Dire Bearcub - then spend the next year and change training it to be a warbeast -- the DM would probably let you.
Asking to buy the perfect specimen that is customized and tailored so acutely, then getting upset that you aren't allowed is a bad call.
You can either take what's handed to you, or spend your character's time and effort to reap the rewards.

Otherwise, you're expecting to go into a store and put on a suit that requires absolutely no tailoring. And that never happens...

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-11, 03:21 PM
Well... you can always throw Fiendish (or Celestial) on to a creature...

So, a Fiendish, Magebred, Dire Bear, Warbeast...

Some templates would obviously not work together... Like Fiendish & Celestial... or Savage & Warbeast.

hamishspence
2010-05-11, 03:22 PM
Are you sure you can't apply acquired templates (namely, handle animal -> warbeast) to the animal companion once you have it?

Only if the DM lets you. It's possible that they may go with "only untemplated animals may be companions- no matter how the template can be gained"

(and magebred is, I think an inherited template anyway.)



Some templates would obviously not work together... Like Fiendish & Celestial... or Savage & Warbeast.

Savage template? What's that in? I know of the Feral template in Savage Species- but animals can't take that.

Dire animals can take the Horrid template in The Eberron Campaign Setting sourcebook though.

Greenish
2010-05-11, 03:24 PM
Only if the DM lets you. It's possible that they may go with "only untemplated animals may be companions- no matter how the template can be gained"Yes, but do the rules say so?

(and magebred is, I think an inherited template anyway.)Hence the "-bred" part (though it isn't actually bred by mages, so yeah). I seem to recall however that you could get magebred animal companion with some Eberron substitution level or backgroundÖ

hamishspence
2010-05-11, 03:36 PM
It says on page 37 of The Eberron Campaign Setting that:

"a druid or ranger may never acquire a magebred animal companion"

Though it's possible there's an ability somewhere overriding this.

It lists allowable animal companions in the main book- and doesn't mention any templates (besides Horrid).

Animal companions seem to be restricted by region- you can only take animal companions appropriate for the region you are in.

nefele
2010-05-11, 03:40 PM
but he claims I could only buy a Dire Bear, no secoundary templates. Is this true?
What is available for purchase in your DM's campaign is entirely up to him. No one else has any authority on the matter. So if he says it's true, then it is true. By definition.

hamishspence
2010-05-11, 03:41 PM
Technically there's no price given for dire bears- so the price will be DM's decision.

Flob
2010-05-11, 03:47 PM
What is available for purchase in your DM's campaign is entirely up to him. No one else has any authority on the matter. So if he says it's true, then it is true. By definition.

To quote him "I was reading through the rules yesterday, and found that you cannot apply more than one template to an animal." Finding it may be a problem, but than again, we are working for someone right now, and know pirates, so we might be able to find one.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-05-11, 03:54 PM
What is available for purchase in your DM's campaign is entirely up to him. No one else has any authority on the matter. So if he says it's true, then it is true. By definition.

For that game, maybe, but RAW, that does not a good argument make.

Greenish
2010-05-11, 03:55 PM
It says on page 37 of The Eberron Campaign Setting that:

"a druid or ranger may never acquire a magebred animal companion"

Though it's possible there's an ability somewhere overriding this.

It lists allowable animal companions in the main book- and doesn't mention any templates (besides Horrid).

Animal companions seem to be restricted by region- you can only take animal companions appropriate for the region you are in.You haven't answered my question yet:
Are you sure you can't apply acquired templates (namely, handle animal -> warbeast) to the animal companion once you have it?Is there an actual rule that prevents druids from applying warbeast (or any other acquired template that doesn't change the creature's type) on their animal companion?

hamishspence
2010-05-11, 03:57 PM
Not sure. It might be just the sort of thing DMs would insist on, before playing.

A player could make a case that they can modify their animal companion- but that doesn't mean the DM has to accept it.

In theory, you could- but that would still depend on the DM agreeing that templates can be applied, once the companion has been obtained.

nefele
2010-05-11, 04:04 PM
For that game, maybe, but RAW, that does not a good argument make.

True, but the question was for a specific game, and not RAW in general. Of course, then the OP clarified that the DM banned it on grounds of "the rules", so....

Savage Species Cheese, page 142 contains guidelines for stacking multiple templates. It begins with the sentence "Sometimes you want to create a monster that uses more than one template", so it's pretty safe to say that animals are not arbitrarily excluded from that.

Therefore, if your DM's only problem was "the rules", no problem. Stacking templates on animals is fine. He'll have to come up with a price, though, because dire bears aren't normally for sale.

By the way, are we talking about an animal companion, wild cohort, special mount, something? Or just an animal you intend to buy?

Greenish
2010-05-11, 04:08 PM
Not sure. It might be just the sort of thing DMs would insist on, before playing.

A player could make a case that they can modify their animal companion- but that doesn't mean the DM has to accept it.

In theory, you could- but that would still depend on the DM agreeing that templates can be applied, once the companion has been obtained.That's a rather convoluted way of saying that it can be done. :smallamused:

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-11, 04:23 PM
Asking to buy the perfect specimen that is customized and tailored so acutely, then getting upset that you aren't allowed is a bad call.
You can either take what's handed to you, or spend your character's time and effort to reap the rewards.

Many games don't have enough downtime to allow that sort of thing. Assuming the world OP is playing in is the stock "gp limit for settlement of size X", I don't see why a small bit of searching in a city wouldn't get him in contact with the type of person that could provide such a beast. I mean, if he can walk into Ye Olde Majik Shoppe and buy a +Y weapon of Z quality, why not let him have his bear?

Require some backstory and roleplaying and let him ride his bear into combat as brave bear cavalry. The bards will sing tales of Gorlos the Mighty and his trusted mount, a savage bear, twisted by magic and tamed by Gorlos' hand... which he lost... training it.

And to answer the original question again: Yeah. Templates can be stacked as long as the most recent template doesn't invalidate later templates. Earlier templates still apply even if later templates make them invalid (I recall some articles on Wizards websites where they spelled this out).

Also: Dire is not a template. Dire animals are separate creatures, like donkeys and horses.

obnoxious
sig

Devils_Advocate
2010-05-11, 04:26 PM
To quote him "I was reading through the rules yesterday, and found that you cannot apply more than one template to an animal."
The rules do talk about templates as altering "an existing creature", which your DM may have interpreted to mean an already printed creature. But if so, he's wrong (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingMoreThanOneTemplate). I'm pretty sure that there's no special rule prohibiting stacking templates on animals in particular; it would be pretty weird if there was. If he's convinced that there is, ask him where he allegedly saw it.

As lsfreak notes, Dire is not a template. It's kind of weird that it isn't, but it's not. Dire bears are just a different type of creature from black bears, brown bears, polar bears, etc., just like how they're different types of creatures from each other. Dire bears aren't bears with the Dire template, as there is no Dire template (at least, not to my knowledge).

Curmudgeon
2010-05-11, 04:37 PM
Are you sure you can't apply acquired templates (namely, handle animal -> warbeast) to the animal companion once you have it?
A strict reading of the rules says you can't.
A 1st-level druidís companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted below. As a druid advances in level, the animalís power increases as shown on the table.
Anything that deviates from the table (including the warbeast's +1 HD) makes it ineligible as an animal companion.

Greenish
2010-05-11, 04:58 PM
A strict reading of the rules says you can't.
Anything that deviates from the table (including the warbeast's +1 HD) makes it ineligible as an animal companion.A very strict reading only says you can't do it at first level. :smalltongue:

Escheton
2010-05-11, 05:48 PM
Arms and euipment guide(3.0) has good guidelines for unusual mounts, pets and guardcritters. Might want to check into that.

Runestar
2010-05-12, 07:16 AM
I am pretty sure a druid's animal companion is not allowed to be modified by adding templates, as that possibly makes it much stronger than the designers intended for it to be, with no clear drawback. What's to stop me from slapping on the half-dragon, feral and lolth-touched templates while I am at it?

You could add templates (some spells do this), but it would likely then stop qualifying as an animal companion. You would then not be able to control it and need to attract a new "mundane" animal again.

It might make for a decent cohort via the leadership feat though.

I suppose you could work with your DM to come to some sort of compromise. Perhaps the template could incur some sort of "LA" which delays how quickly it improves. For example, magebred might treat your druid lv as 1 lv lower for determining when its stats next improve.


What is available for purchase in your DM's campaign is entirely up to him. No one else has any authority on the matter. So if he says it's true, then it is true. By definition.

And I will honestly slap any DM who tries to take that attitude with me. :smallamused:

Greenish
2010-05-12, 07:35 AM
I am pretty sure a druid's animal companion is not allowed to be modified by adding templates, as that possibly makes it much stronger than the designers intended for it to be, with no clear drawback. What's to stop me from slapping on the half-dragon, feral and lolth-touched templates while I am at it?Half-dragon and feral are inherent templates, no? And Lloth-touched, well, if you can convince an insane greater deity to grant you favours, getting her to touch your pet is kinda minor. Anyhow, druids (and their animal companion) are already more powerful than the designers intended.

I'm not saying it should be allowed, I'm trying to figure if it's against RAW. (Personally, I prefer the shifter substitution levels, so I don't have to stat out yet another beast.)

Runestar
2010-05-12, 07:39 AM
I'm not saying it should be allowed, I'm trying to figure if it's against RAW. (Personally, I prefer the shifter substitution levels, so I don't have to stat out yet another beast.)

I am fairly sure it is against RAW. I am not sure what the rules say if you were to perform some ritual that adds a template onto your animal companion (I am fairly sure there is at least 1 such spell which adds the fiendish/celestial template), but I think they were never meant to be augmented in such as permanent fashion.

Greenish
2010-05-12, 07:43 AM
I am fairly sure it is against RAW. I am not sure what the rules say if you were to perform some ritual that adds a template onto your animal companion (I am fairly sure there is at least 1 such spell which adds the fiendish/celestial template), but I think they were never meant to be augmented in such as permanent fashion."RAW" stands for Rules As Written. What was intended doesn't enter the picture. So far, only Curmudgeon has come up with something that might confirm it.

Anyhow, warbeast template can be added with DC 25 (or so) Handle Animal check.

Runestar
2010-05-12, 07:56 AM
Anyhow, warbeast template can be added with DC 25 (or so) Handle Animal check.

I am just saying that when it happens, said animal may just stop qualifying as your animal companion, simply because it is no longer a typical representation of an animal of its type.

Why has no one ever asked if the half-fiend template could be added to a wizard's familiar or not? :smallbiggrin:

Greenish
2010-05-12, 08:00 AM
I am just saying that when it happens, said animal may just stop qualifying as your animal companion, simply because it is no longer a typical representation of an animal of its type.
A druidís animal companion is different from a normal animal of its kind in many ways.Please, I don't care about houserules, rule 0 or common sense: what I'm interested is the RAW.

JeminiZero
2010-05-12, 08:02 AM
Why has no one ever asked if the half-fiend template could be added to a wizard's familiar or not? :smallbiggrin:

This (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20011020a) may be of interest to you.

Runestar
2010-05-12, 08:22 AM
Please, I don't care about houserules, rule 0 or common sense: what I'm interested is the RAW.

Is the FAQ RAW enough for you?

If an awakened animalís type permanently changes back to animal (from magical beast), can it then become an animal companion, familiar, or special mount?

Two very large obstacles stand in the way of this request. First of all, there arenít any simple methods of changing a magical beastís type to animal. By definition, an animal has an Intelligence of 1 or 2, both of which are outside the range of Intelligence scores granted by the awaken spell. Even permanently reducing the awakened animalís Intelligence score to 2 or less doesnít automatically change its type (note that several magical beasts have Intelligence scores of 2 or less).

Second of all, unless the DM grants special permission, you can use only ďstockĒ versions of creatures animal companions, familiars, or special mounts. A druid, for example, canít voluntarily take a 4-Hit Dice wolf as an animal companion, nor could a wizard claim that the cat sheís using as a familiar was the beneficiary of several wish spells from a previous owner and therefore possesses ability scores beyond the norm. Even if an awakened animal somehow qualified to become an animal once again, it would have a higher Charisma score and more Hit Dice than a typical animal of its kind, making it ineligible for such use.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-12, 08:54 AM
Is the FAQ RAW enough for you?
The FAQ author is basically repeating my argument: if you alter the animal so its special powers fail to match the entries on the Animal Companion Table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#theDruidsAnimalCompanion), it's no longer eligible for that role.
As a druid advances in level, the animalís power increases as shown on the table. If you change the animal companion, the above rule would be broken.

2xMachina
2010-05-12, 11:48 AM
Actually, the FAQ only says you can't ACQUIRE a non-standard animal. It has no mention of changing it.

Greenish
2010-05-12, 11:56 AM
Is the FAQ RAW enough for you?No. See also JeminiZero's link (which also contradicts Curmudgeon's reading of the rules, but that doesn't mean it's not RAW).

However, I'm still not sure that you can get disqualified from being an animal companion just by any changes: Awaken seems to be noted as an exception.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-05-12, 12:10 PM
Savage template? What's that in? I know of the Feral template in Savage Species- but animals can't take that.


In the Savage Tide adventure path, there's a Savage template. It's actually quite nasty, basically turning the creature into an insane living acid-bomb.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-12, 02:14 PM
Actually, the FAQ only says you can't ACQUIRE a non-standard animal. It has no mention of changing it.
Let's try reading that again:
unless the DM grants special permission, you can use only ďstockĒ versions of creatures [as] animal companions, familiars, or special mounts. "Use" covers all levels (as opposed to "acquire"). A specific mention of change after acquisition isn't necessary.

Escheton
2010-05-12, 04:23 PM
This (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20011020a) may be of interest to you.

is that homebrew, dragonmag or what?

Greenish
2010-05-12, 04:40 PM
is that homebrew, dragonmag or what?How about "Official WotC material"?

I don't know how they've picked the spells there though.

Escheton
2010-05-12, 06:23 PM
checked out the entire list, some damn good spells in there.
Elemental Familiar
for making a tiny elemental familiar, prolly stacks with the other spell to make a celestial elemental familiar.
any rulelawyers here to confirm or dismiss that?

Bladesong
1 touchattack per round in which you used the weapon for a free daze.
Perfect for lockdown gishes

Mirror Move
Best spell ever for intbased gishes or casters in general
1 feat per int bonus for 1minute per lvl, must copy it from others though...