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The Glyphstone
2006-06-26, 08:46 PM
Cthulu Wins in a straight fight, Batman wins with preparation.

Or does he? What kinds of preparation can you get against Cthulu, anyways?

BelkarsDagger
2006-06-26, 09:28 PM
Naw. Cthulhu Meteor Swarms him, thrice. Then puree's his corpse in a vat of molten lava mixed with peanut butter. After that, he toasts his charred remains, and feeds them to his dog. Batman wins because Cthulhu's dog doesnt exist, so Cthulhu is a senile old fool who- *gets killed by Cthulhu*

Steward
2006-06-26, 09:30 PM
How to defeat him

1) Ignore the hype. He's is not nearly as powerful as he claims to be.

2) Remember, just because he's not that good-looking that doesn't mean that he's some sort of abberation who can blow your mind just because you think about him.

3) He's not immortal. If you kill him, he will die.

and that's how you can kill Cthulhu.

Ing
2006-06-26, 10:27 PM
just cause you convince yourself that dosn't make it true...

that stratagy just leaves to a tentacles of forced intrusion

Steward
2006-06-26, 10:29 PM
just cause you convince yourself that dosn't make it true...

Yeah, but I didn't say to just convince yourself that. It is true, and all you have to do is realize that to make it an even fight.

Oh, and get your buddies with, you know, real super powers.

Holy_Knight
2006-06-26, 10:43 PM
You know, this may be one of those rare occasions where Batman loses. :)

Fury1671
2006-06-26, 10:54 PM
How to defeat him

1) Ignore the hype. He's is not nearly as powerful as he claims to be.

2) Remember, just because he's not that good-looking that doesn't mean that he's some sort of abberation who can blow your mind just because you think about him.

3) He's not immortal. If you kill him, he will die.

and that's how you can kill Cthulhu. Batman

Fixed your quote for you. I'd say Batman would lose, but we all know he wont. Unless Cthulhu can invoke Murphy's Law on Batman, rendering him useless. Yes, Batman can prepare, but can he handle when everything goes wrong?

CelestialStick
2006-06-26, 11:30 PM
Cthulu Wins in a straight fight, Batman wins with preparation.

Or does he? What kinds of preparation can you get against Cthulu, anyways?
This depends on which Batman we mean.

The campy, 1960s Batman is immune to anything serious, which puts Cthulu at a serious disadvantage. Campy Batman wins. ;D

The psychopathic Batman Mary Sue who gloated over strangling Superman has already been converted by Cthulu, so there's no fight--Cthulu long ago took Batman Mary Sue's soul.

The real Batman recognizes that he's totally outclassed by a god, and calls in the Justice League, which collectively can beat Cthulu, driving him back into the insane reaches whence he came (for now--MUhaha!;D)

Piedmon_Sama
2006-06-27, 12:05 AM
Easy. Cthulhu cannot awaken unless the stars are right?

Batman takes the JLA Satellite for a joy-ride and triggers a few Supernovas. =D

Ralfarius
2006-06-27, 12:31 AM
Through extensive research, Batman finds out about the big C's cultists and their horrific, Great Old One invoking rituals.

He (like so many others in the Cthulu RPG) stops the cultist's rituals cold. Also, because Batman isn't a stupid roleplayer, he refrains from reading the invocation himself. Cthulu remains dormant.

He has, in essence, defeated the Great Old One.

Barring that, he finds one of the many ways to banish a Great Old One from our physical realm, probably with some help from an Elder God. Batman proceeds to have his dreams haunted for the rest of his days, but that's about par for the course for him.

Also: Remember, as much as everyone likes to name-drop Cthulhu, as far as the mythos goes he's pretty much a bit player.

Fintago
2006-06-27, 12:33 AM
Given time batman could gain an elder sign and hold him off in tell something could be done to handle him. While cthulu can be killed he is still immortal this is tripy but try to follow along when he is killed he is born again threw HIS SISTER, so in effect your just pissing him off. The only thing is if cthulu wanted to he could kill just about anyone, but he doesn't think about it would you just go out of your way to crush every ant you see?

CelestialStick
2006-06-27, 12:53 AM
Given time batman could gain an elder sign and hold him off in tell something could be done to handle him. While cthulu can be killed he is still immortal this is tripy but try to follow along when he is killed he is born again threw HIS SISTER, so in effect your just pissing him off. The only thing is if cthulu wanted to he could kill just about anyone, but he doesn't think about it would you just go out of your way to crush every ant you see?
Batman holds him off until Superman can arrive and throw Cthulu into the sun. :D

Allanon
2006-06-27, 03:19 AM
...
Batman vs Cthulhu? ???

Here is how I see it playing out; Cthulhu squishes batman with his foot seriosly Cthulhu completey defeats batman in a straight fight batman kills his cultists? Doesn't matter that is not beatinghim in a fight Batman enlists the help of other people? No then he woud not be the ony one fighting him and if he is allowed to do that then Cthulhu has allies as wel both the cultists and starspawn and possibly some others from the mythos

In fact all Cthuhu has to do is drive him mad and after that procede to squash

Haggis_McCrablice
2006-06-27, 04:30 AM
The*real Batman recognizes that he's totally outclassed by a god, and calls in the Justice League, which collectively can beat Cthulu, driving him back into the insane reaches whence he came....
The Justice League actually did fight a Cthulhu-type Thanagerian deity in "The Terror Beyond (2)", though Batman wasn't part of this storyline. It was a combination of Hawkgirl and the decidedly odd triumverate of Aquaman, Dr. Fate, and Solomon Grundy that defeated Icthulhu.

Beelzebub1111
2006-06-27, 11:46 AM
Cthulhu Wins. Always.

Dawnstrider_Moogle
2006-06-27, 12:28 PM
Batman realizes that Cthulhu wins in a straight up fight, but he wins with preparation. Therefore, he goes to prepare, and starts researching Cthulhu.

This, of course, drives him completely insane. It's not like he had very far to go, after all.

Smashymcsmash
2006-06-27, 01:35 PM
The Justice League actually did fight a Cthulhu-type Thanagerian deity in "The Terror Beyond (2)", though Batman wasn't part of this storyline. It was a combination of Hawkgirl and the decidedly odd triumverate of Aquaman, Dr. Fate, and Solomon Grundy that defeated Icthulhu.

It seems odd till you realize they are the DC version of the Defenders. *Grundy even starts of the episode being all "Grundy Smash!!" *instead of mumbling about the day he was born on.

edit spelling

Piedmon_Sama
2006-06-27, 03:23 PM
The Justice League has already stopped Armageddon. (Yes, the Armageddon.) Honestly, for these guys Cthulhu is a step down. =p

Runolfr
2006-06-27, 03:42 PM
As Cthulu is pretty much incomprehensible by definition, no amount of preparation is going to help Batman in a direct confrontation with the Great Old One.

Smacking down Cthulu's cultists, of course, would be no problem.

Belial_the_Leveler
2006-06-27, 04:24 PM
Batman has to sleep. Cthulhuu doesn't. So Cthulhuu merely casts a few Demand SLAs (sending coupled with suggestion) to which Batman is considered willing (according to DnD rules, unconscious or sleeping creatures are considered willing) and now Cthulhuu controls Batman.

Cthulhuu does that to Superman, Green Lantern and the Martian Manhunter so Earth is gone.


Note that the above scenario has happened before. A mortal with a similar power managed to defeat the entire JLA (except for Martian Manhunter) with his power. Also, Braniac-13 used nanites to mentally dominate Bruce Wayne (and thus Batman)

CelestialStick
2006-06-27, 04:41 PM
The Justice League actually did fight a Cthulhu-type Thanagerian deity in "The Terror Beyond (2)", though Batman wasn't part of this storyline. It was a combination of Hawkgirl and the decidedly odd triumverate of Aquaman, Dr. Fate, and Solomon Grundy that defeated Icthulhu.
Oh, man, I'm sure sorry I missed that one! I think Dr. Fate is a pretty powerful magician, but what the heck did Aquaman do, threaten to sink mock-Cthulu's ships? When did Grundy end up working for the JL? I saw an episode of JL where he had been resurrected by some powerful evil force and at the end Hawkgirl, who likes him, has to decide whether to use her magic mace (which works against the power animating Grundy) to destroy him or not. They actually don't show us whether she does or not.

Abd al-Azrad
2006-06-27, 05:31 PM
Also: Remember, as much as everyone likes to name-drop Cthulhu, as far as the mythos goes he's pretty much a bit player.

I don't know about that... after all, he has a world-spanning cult, and he does come alive and destroy a sailing ship in Call of Cthulhu. Frankly, I forget how the world got out of that one. Maybe I should re-read the story.

*time passes*

Oh, right. He doesn't destroy the ship, the ship rams him in the head and kills him. And then he reforms, but the stars change and he gets sunk back into R'lyeh. I guess if that's all it takes to beat Cthulhu, Batman could take him down.

That's vaguely disappointing.

Steward
2006-06-27, 06:49 PM
Oh, man, I'm sure sorry I missed that one! I think Dr. Fate is a pretty powerful magician, but what the heck did Aquaman do, threaten to sink mock-Cthulu's ships?

Aquaman wasn't even there for the actual fight. His main contribution was a (failed) magical enchantment using his trident to sacrifice a willing Solomon Grundy. This would have driven Icthulhu back to whence he came, if it had even made sense. But eventually that was messed up by the Justice League and he got himself beaten senseless by Wonder Woman. He ends saying, "screw the world" and runs back to Atlantis.

I hate Aquaman.


When did Grundy end up working for the JL?

He doesn't technically, but he becomes friends with Hawkgirl and she ends up being the last person he sees before Icthulhu vanquishes him. Oh, and Hawkgirl killed Icthulhu all by herself while the rest of her useless teammates ran distraction.


I saw an episode of JL where he had been resurrected by some powerful evil force and at the end Hawkgirl, who likes him, has to decide whether to use her magic mace (which works against the power animating Grundy) to destroy him or not. They actually don't show us whether she does or not.

She does.

CelestialStick
2006-06-27, 07:21 PM
Aquaman wasn't even there for the actual fight. His main contribution was a (failed) magical enchantment using his trident to sacrifice a willing Solomon Grundy. This would have driven Icthulhu back to whence he came, if it had even made sense. But eventually that was messed up by the Justice League and he got himself beaten senseless by Wonder Woman. He ends saying, "screw the world" and runs back to Atlantis.

I hate Aquaman.


He doesn't technically, but he becomes friends with Hawkgirl and she ends up being the last person he sees before Icthulhu vanquishes him. Oh, and Hawkgirl killed Icthulhu all by herself while the rest of her useless teammates ran distraction.


She does.


The old Aquaman of Super Friends days was, like Batman, another Superman clone only without the really good superpowers. The new Aquaman of the the JL/JLU series is an arrogant, elitist, eco-terrorist. I hate him too, and gladly. :D I'd even say that he's a hypocrite as well, because you can't persuade me that making and running his uber-submarines doesn't pollute the oceans too. I'm glad to hear that Wonder Woman beat him senseless. It almost makes the DC decision to ruin her by powering her up after 1985 worthwhile, although really, the old Wonder Woman could have beat him senseless anyway. :D

So Hawk Girls beat icky-thulu all by herself. Woot! I love Hawk Girl. I especially like it when she says to Diana, after Diana once again says "Hera give me strength!" "Do you have to keep saying that?!" The whole Hawkgirl storyline is cool, including the whole torn loyalties when he race invades the earth, and subsequent struggle with who she really is.

Ok, when you say that she did kill Grundy (or the Grundy-thing) is that because we saw her do it, or because you inferred that she had?

Steward
2006-06-27, 08:35 PM
Ok, when you say that she did kill Grundy (or the Grundy-thing) is that because we saw her do it, or because you inferred that she had?

We don't get to see her do it, but it's fairly obvious that she did. Just before we cut away, she says something like, “Shhhh. It’s okay. I know what you want. What you need," while raising her mace.

CelestialStick
2006-06-27, 08:45 PM
We don't get to see her do it, but it's fairly obvious that she did. Just before we cut away, she says something like, “Shhhh. It’s okay. I know what you want. What you need," while raising her mace.
Yeah, I thought it was something like that.

Ing
2006-06-28, 08:37 AM
I don't know about that... after all, he has a world-spanning cult, and he does come alive and destroy a sailing ship in Call of Cthulhu. Frankly, I forget how the world got out of that one. Maybe I should re-read the story.

*time passes*

Oh, right. He doesn't destroy the ship, the ship rams him in the head and kills him. And then he reforms, but the stars change and he gets sunk back into R'lyeh. I guess if that's all it takes to beat Cthulhu, Batman could take him down.

That's vaguely disappointing.

he was defeated in such a manner because he was freshly reawakened and still not at full strength had he been given uninterupted time on his island to redraw his power he would have been much more powerful

Aidan305
2006-06-28, 12:30 PM
Batman prepares, as Batman always does

In doing so he loses about 20 sanity points from reading the Book of Eibon, and the Necronomican. This drives him temporarily insane for a while. Bruce Wayne gets locked up in Arkham.

He eventually recovers but the realisation of what the world is rally like has caused him to lose yet more sanity.

He eventually squares off against Great Cthulhu (Fh'taghn) and seeing the high priest of the Old Ones himself causes him to fail his sanity check and lose massive amounts of sanity.

Win Cthulhu.
Batman is no Randolf Carter.

Jothki
2006-06-28, 01:12 PM
he was defeated in such a manner because he was freshly reawakened and still not at full strength had he been given uninterupted time on his island to redraw his power he would have been much more powerful

And then we would merely have to hit him with a missile. It probably wouldn't even need to be a nuke.

Of course, he would possibly be invincible in his own setting. I'll bet that enough biplane or zepplin strafing would work, though.

Ing
2006-06-28, 01:16 PM
well according to sources


when reduced to 0 hit points (he has something like 800-1800 depending on how full powered he is)power) he simply losses solid form and returns to a cloud of plasm...he regains his form withing several minutes... but in the gasseous state he can be trapped. prettty much everything that dosn't vaporize every part of him will only slow him down. you'd need a nuke to destroy hsi body...and then what with being a god, there's some debate on whether his spirit would remain to haunt us and eventaully retake a new body!

therefore unless batman has a missile arsonal and a way to banish elder gods or trap them he's screwed

Vaynor
2006-06-28, 01:20 PM
Cthulu Wins in a straight fight, Batman wins with preparation.

Or does he? What kinds of preparation can you get against Cthulu, anyways?
You spelled Cthulhu wrong.
Also, how could Batman defeat this (http://pantransit.reptiles.org/images/1996-07-28/Cthulhu.png) beast!!?

Steward
2006-06-28, 01:30 PM
You spelled Cthulhu wrong.
Also, how could Batman defeat this (http://pantransit.reptiles.org/images/1996-07-28/Cthulhu.png) beast!!?

By killing it.

Elurindel
2006-06-28, 02:17 PM
Batman is just a mortal man, and nothing can prepare a mortal man to stare upon Cthulhu without his own brain trying to crawl out through is spine and flee to safety, which it cannot achieve because it bursts at the instance Batman lays eyes upon him.

tis_tom
2006-06-28, 04:23 PM
He'd probably end up using thermal vision.. or uv lightvision... something which makes Cthulhu less detailed to the extent it will no longer drive him into the very depths of madness itself...

Though Cthulhu would own Batman, unless Batman brought in the help of one of the others of his kind, or even the outer gods :-O, there's only so much a high priest can do against a god!

And of course Batman, with preperation, could do that ;)

Steward
2006-06-28, 05:50 PM
Batman is just a mortal man, and nothing can prepare a mortal man to stare upon Cthulhu without his own brain trying to crawl out through is spine and flee to safety, which it cannot achieve because it bursts at the instance Batman lays eyes upon him.

Considering Batman is from a comic book, he's seen weirder crap than Cthulhu before. I bet he eats things that are more disgusting than Cthulhu on a daily basis.

That being said, unless Batman is allowed to call in Superman, he's dead. Deader than dead. Deader than deader than dead.

Jarl
2006-06-29, 09:38 PM
Not only is Batman from a comic book, he's from a Gothic comic book. He's from a city with the word "Goth" right in the name, possibly built on the ruins of Arkham (I like that idea more than it just being alternate universe New York). He lives in a cave, underground, surrounded by bats and eldritch tecknologies, as Hewlett-Packard Lovecraft would say.
Randolph Carter? Pfff. Batman's frickin' Nyarlathotep.
...
Huh.
That... almost makes sense, in a Randall Flagg sorta way.
...
Anyways, I say that Batman figures out how to beat Cthulhu. He's tough. His mind's already twisted beyond human recognition.

-At the very least, all you have to do is wipe out the cultists trying to wake him up. Maybe you'll have to blow up the island if the stars are right. Big deal. The US blows up islands all the time. Used to, at least.

Closet_Skeleton
2006-06-30, 07:03 AM
Easy. Cthulhu cannot awaken unless the stars are right?

Batman takes the JLA Satellite for a joy-ride and triggers a few Supernovas. =D

Yeah, but Cthulhu would cheat and say that it takes so long for starlight to get here that the stars would become right and it'd just be the after image of long dead stars but he'd awaken anyway.

Tokeloshe
2006-06-30, 07:34 AM
Batman wins. Why? Batman has the power of plot-cheese on his side, and besides, bats isn't exactly a picture of mental stability so Cthulu loses his main avenue of attack due to redundancy.

Flak_Razorwill
2006-06-30, 11:21 AM
By killing it.

"That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange eons even death may die."

Also, it looks like a lot of people are invoking allies into this mix. *Shouldn't Shub-Niggurath or Nyarlathotep get into the mix? How about being randomly teleported into the brain of a Yith slug-pyramid 100MYA?

Eh, it could happen.

Abd al-Azrad
2006-06-30, 11:28 AM
Also, it looks like a lot of people are invoking allies into this mix. *Shouldn't Shub-Niggurath or Nyarlathotep get into the mix?

I noticed that with the Batman threads.

"Can Batman defeat X?"
"Yes, by bringing Superman along."

It's not really Batman's victory if Superman wins the fight. Granted, Batman would be moderately pleased with himself, but he didn't really win, did he?

"But Batman gave Superman the X weapon and created Y weakness in the enemy!"

Good for him. He's "contributing." Don't make any more comparisons to the party Bard.

Steward
2006-06-30, 11:42 AM
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange eons even death may die."

Also, it looks like a lot of people are invoking allies into this mix. Shouldn't Shub-Niggurath or Nyarlathotep get into the mix? How about being randomly teleported into the brain of a Yith slug-pyramid 100MYA?

Eh, it could happen.

Awesome, the more the merrier.

Because, of course, if Batman were try to take down Cthulhu on his own, he'd be screwed.

Abd al-Azrad
2006-06-30, 11:43 AM
Because, of course, if Batman were try to take down Cthulhu on his own, he'd be screwed.

Precisely.

Altair_the_Vexed
2006-06-30, 02:26 PM
The Justice League has already stopped Armageddon. (Yes, the Armageddon.) *Honestly, for these guys Cthulhu is a step down. =p
Er... Armageddon is place (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armageddon).

Back to Batman and the Great One:
What rules system? In the original CoC game, Batman is eaten along with 1d4 other investigators per round.

Steward
2006-06-30, 03:36 PM
Er... Armageddon is place.

Eh? Armageddon is also an event as well as a place.


What rules system? In the original CoC game, Batman is eaten along with 1d4 other investigators per round.

That's another interesting question. The setting has a lot to do with who wins and who loses. Cthulhu would be a substantial disadvantage if he was in the DCU, and likewise with Batman anywhere else.

crusk
2006-06-30, 04:31 PM
i hate batman go die batty

Deuce
2006-06-30, 05:16 PM
Easy. *Cthulhu cannot awaken unless the stars are right?

Batman takes the JLA Satellite for a joy-ride and triggers a few Supernovas. =D

In true Lovecraft style, the Caped Crusader's blasting of the stars turns out to be the very event that causes the "Stars to Come Right". Bats returns to find what he has caused, and either is reduced to rocking back and forth in a corner or eating a Bat Pistol round.

Steward
2006-06-30, 06:50 PM
In true Lovecraft style, the Caped Crusader's blasting of the stars turns out to be the very event that causes the "Stars to Come Right". Bats returns to find what he has caused, and either is reduced to rocking back and forth in a corner or eating a Bat Pistol round.

In true DC style, however, that action would simply cause a whole bunch of dimensions to vibrate at a different frequency, causing a whole bunch of Batmans from other universes entirely to appear.

Of course, among those Batmans would be the one from the Challenge of the SuperFriends show. He, of course, would have a Bat-Get-Rid-Of-Monster-ifier in his godlike utility belt.

Smashymcsmash
2006-06-30, 06:56 PM
Oh how many times has that Bat-Get-Rid-Of-Monster-ifier saved him?

Jarl
2006-06-30, 07:13 PM
Batmany.
(hey, that has the word "batman" in it!)

-I still argue that, were circumstances contrived to allow the two to meet and fight, Batman would be revealed to be some emissary of the Elders who shall strike down the sleeper, yea, te-ke-li-li, all that nonsense.

CelestialStick
2006-06-30, 08:51 PM
I noticed that with the Batman threads.

"Can Batman defeat X?"
"Yes, by bringing Superman along."

It's not really Batman's victory if Superman wins the fight. Granted, Batman would be moderately pleased with himself, but he didn't really win, did he?

"But Batman gave Superman the X weapon and created Y weakness in the enemy!"

Good for him. He's "contributing." Don't make any more comparisons to the party Bard.
Shush! You are going to give the Bat-deifiers an inferiority complex. Don't say anything to remind them that Batman's just a guy in tights. ;) (Notice I didn't say "in a rubber suit.") :D

CelestialStick
2006-06-30, 08:54 PM
In true DC style, however, that action would simply cause a whole bunch of dimensions to vibrate at a different frequency, causing a whole bunch of Batmans from other universes entirely to appear.

Of course, among those Batmans would be the one from the Challenge of the SuperFriends show. He, of course, would have a Bat-Get-Rid-Of-Monster-ifier in his godlike utility belt.

You mean like the Bat-shark-repellent in the live action Batman movie of the 1960s? :D

Steward
2006-06-30, 10:25 PM
You mean like the Bat-shark-repellent in the live action Batman movie of the 1960s? :D

It's even worse in the SuperFriends show. He had Bat-Webs, Bat-Invisibility Rays, and, even more infamously, Bat-Lube. If Cthulhu doesn't choke on his own aberrant laughter after hearing that then he deserves to win.

Xerillum
2006-06-30, 11:54 PM
batman can be kiled by anything, and everyone knows cthulu woulsd totally kick his arse.

Zeful
2006-07-01, 12:01 AM
You know I just don't get the hype about cthulhu I mean from what I've seen he's not all that great. I mean how could batman lose against this? (http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e379/Zeful/Cthulhu.jpg) I mean I could even beat it!

I'm just not seeing this guys.

CelestialStick
2006-07-01, 12:23 AM
It's even worse in the SuperFriends show. He had Bat-Webs, Bat-Invisibility Rays, and, even more infamously, Bat-Lube. If Cthulhu doesn't choke on his own aberrant laughter after hearing that then he deserves to win.
I did watch some Superfriends, though that came the next decade (started 1970s) so I stopped watching it long before it ended in the 1980s. I can honestly say that either I never saw or I simply don't recall Bat-lube. Why didn't you mention that on the "Favorite Bat-Gadget" thread?! Wow, that just opens up so many possibilities. ;)

Ralfarius
2006-07-01, 12:42 AM
To reiterate Cthulhu's bit-playeredness:

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu

"Although the cycle of stories written by Lovecraft, his protégés, and his literary successors bear the label "Cthulhu Mythos" (a term invented by August Derleth and never used by Lovecraft), Cthulhu is arguably one of the least terrible creatures in the pantheon. Cthulhu himself debuted in Lovecraft's short story "The Call of Cthulhu" ( 1928 )—though he makes minor appearances in a few other of Lovecraft's works."

People just gotta stop dropping the Big C's name. He's the most recognizeable, sure. Granted, his powers twist the boundaries of mortal comprehension. However, the fact that he's the little kid in the sandbox, and there are bigger kids outside the sandbox that could step on his sand castle and make him eat dirt suggests that he is not nearly as undefeatable as so many people would like to believe.

And yes, if Batman encounters Cthulhu directly, he gets eaten (Yum yum!) and/or driven mad(der) at the sight of the Great Old One. The fact of the matter is, Batman is more likely not going to let it come to that. With his power of nigh-infinite resources, Batman could come up with a half dozen ways to stop Cthulhu.

Of course, 'stop' is a relative term. Fact of the matter is, Cthulhu has time beyond reckoning to simply wait. Batman's efforts merely hold off the inevitable and prolong the existance of the tiny, tragically flawed creatures that currently inhabit the surface of this world.

So, I'm going to have to say that Batman can 'win' against Cthulhu, as much as any mortal could. It's ultimately futile, but he has it.

Now, if you were to pit him against The Crawling Chaos, one who has taken an intimate interest in directly affecting the comings and goings of mortals... I've got to say, an opponent who isn't in a deathlike, dreamlike stasis which has lasted untold aeons presents a much scarier challenge.

CelestialStick
2006-07-01, 12:53 AM
To reiterate Cthulhu's bit-playeredness:

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu

"Although the cycle of stories written by Lovecraft, his protégés, and his literary successors bear the label "Cthulhu Mythos" (a term invented by August Derleth and never used by Lovecraft), Cthulhu is arguably one of the least terrible creatures in the pantheon. Cthulhu himself debuted in Lovecraft's short story "The Call of Cthulhu" ( 1928 )—though he makes minor appearances in a few other of Lovecraft's works."

People just gotta stop dropping the Big C's name. He's the most recognizeable, sure. Granted, his powers twist the boundaries of mortal comprehension. However, the fact that he's the little kid in the sandbox, and there are bigger kids outside the sandbox that could step on his sand castle and make him eat dirt suggests that he is not nearly as undefeatable as so many people would like to believe.

And yes, if Batman encounters Cthulhu directly, he gets eaten (Yum yum!) and/or driven mad(der) at the sight of the Great Old One. The fact of the matter is, Batman is more likely not going to let it come to that. With his power of nigh-infinite resources, Batman could come up with a half dozen ways to stop Cthulhu.

Of course, 'stop' is a relative term. Fact of the matter is, Cthulhu has time beyond reckoning to simply wait. Batman's efforts merely hold off the inevitable and prolong the existance of the tiny, tragically flawed creatures that currently inhabit the surface of this world.

So, I'm going to have to say that Batman can 'win' against Cthulhu, as much as any mortal could. It's ultimately futile, but he has it.

Now, if you were to pit him against The Crawling Chaos, one who has taken an intimate interest in directly affecting the comings and goings of mortals... I've got to say, an opponent who isn't in a deathlike, dreamlike stasis which has lasted untold aeons presents a much scarier challenge.
Cthulu would be what in D&D we categorize as an intermediate god. Not powerful compared to the Elder Ones, but still pretty darned powerful, and easily more than a match for any mortal like Batman, whether or not Batman prepares.

Jarl
2006-07-01, 02:23 AM
You know what... I'm gonna outright claim that Batman is in fact Nyarlathotep, via reincarnation or posession or some sort of horrible trick involving Mr. and Mrs. Wayne (like with Terry's dad).
Cthulhu and friends aren't evil. They're just beyond our simple human moral reasoning.

-I also came to the realization that Nyarlathotep is Gandalf, but that's for another thread.

Abd al-Azrad
2006-07-01, 02:41 AM
...Cthulhu is arguably one of the least terrible creatures in the pantheon.

I think you've got to realise the purpose behind that statement- the explain the true horror of the Mythos, that Cthulhu, a mighty demigod of a being that could practically single-handedly wipe out all human life (beyond those that dedicated themselves to living as the Old Ones do) is one of the least powerful forces among the known Gods.

Cthulhu is indestructible, a master of the mind and dreams, immortal, gigantic, and weilds cosmic powers beyond those of most of the Marvel superheroes. The fact that he's the weakest of the Gods simply goes to show how powerful the Old Ones really are. The rest of them don't even fight on our terms. Cthulhu casts Meteor Swarms, Azathoth devours planets by accident.

Ralfarius
2006-07-01, 07:10 PM
See, what I'm trying to get at with that statement is that there are things more powerful than Cthulhu out there. I mean, if it really came down to it, couldn't Batman just invoke a more powerful god as a trump card?

Granted, that would have potentialy more dire consequences than simply letting Cthulhu eat Batman. The point is, there are ways to best even a Great Old One. If anyone could find such a way, it would be the world's greatest detective.

Not to get too up on Batman or down on Cthulhu. I'm just sayin', people are too cut and dry in their answers.

Abd al-Azrad
2006-07-01, 07:29 PM
See, what I'm trying to get at with that statement is that there are things more powerful than Cthulhu out there. I mean, if it really came down to it, couldn't Batman just invoke a more powerful god as a trump card?

And we come back to my original point: Batman didn't win. Batman invoked a more powerful being, and the more powerful being won. Batman thus failed to win.

Solara
2006-07-01, 11:25 PM
This one's easy; Batman would win.

Why?

Because he's Batman. ;)

But seriously, it's not like they're going to get in a fist fight or anything. Everytime any of the Great Old Ones are involved and the world's about to end or whatever there's always plenty of time for slowly uncovering more and more of the horror through copious amounts of research, something Batman's really good at. All he has to do is prevent him from being awakened, and in essense he's 'won', for the time being at least.

Also, I am so sick of Cthulu. Why is he so special? What about Yog-Sothoth or Nyarlathotep?

Zzarchov
2006-07-02, 12:15 AM
which one has a metal song named after them? there is your answer.

Ing
2006-07-02, 01:12 AM
cthulhu has a better marketing department/cult


thus he's established brand name.

Cthulhu a name you can trust....to rip your innards out of your pupils.

Aidan305
2006-07-02, 06:52 PM
And we come back to my original point: Batman didn't win. Batman invoked a more powerful being, and the more powerful being won. Batman thus failed to win.

Also, since Batman just invoked one of the more powerful beings in the pantheon, he loses anyway. (Partly because of the cost to his sanity, mostly because it's a friggin elder god from the mythos)

CelestialStick
2006-07-02, 06:54 PM
cthulhu has a better marketing department/cult


thus he's established brand name.

Cthulhu a name you can trust....to rip your innards out of your pupils.
Though I have to give the fight to Cthulu, I have to give Batman the advantage in marketing. Batman has earned vastly more over the years than Cthulu has. :D

Ing
2006-07-02, 07:26 PM
ah but batman is heavily influenced by Cthulhu and his brand


look at it...

Gotham: new England harbor town that seems to attract madness and insanity

Innsmouth: New England harbor town that has a dark history and now attracts madness and insanity

Arkham: site of a hellish insane asylum

Arkham: a hellish insane asylum


personally i always liked to think that Gotham is a city built upon the ghost town of Innsmouth after the ATF drove the cult of Dagon underground

Ralfarius
2006-07-02, 10:57 PM
This one's easy; Batman would win.

Why?

Because he's Batman. ;)

But seriously, it's not like they're going to get in a fist fight or anything. Everytime any of the Great Old Ones are involved and the world's about to end or whatever there's always plenty of time for slowly uncovering more and more of the horror through copious amounts of research, something Batman's really good at. All he has to do is prevent him from being awakened, and in essense he's 'won', for the time being at least.

Also, I am so sick of Cthulu. Why is he so special? What about Yog-Sothoth or Nyarlathotep?


So, I'm not crazy! There is someone else out there who can see where I'm coming from.

There was my original point. There are ways to 'best' a Great Old One. When people hear the word 'fight' they immediately go to a physical confrontation. Obviously, batman loses in such a scenario. But, c'mon! He has, like, a half dozen different ways to stop something happening, like Cthulhu rising again.

- If he prevents a ritual from being completed that would somehow benefit Cthulhu, then he's (in essence) beaten him
- If he enlists the aid of other super beings, be they heroes or things scarier than Cthulhu, he still technically beats the big C (even if the thing he summons does something worse, he's still won in the previous fight)
- If he uses his vast resources to uncover another, counter-thulhu ritual, elder sign, or any other such thing that staves off our destruction for a while longer, he's won
- If a member of the Great Race of Yith sends one of their members forward through space and time to possess Batman and make preperations through him to stop Cthulhu, then he has won through no fault of his own

Really, the only way Cthulhu does seem to win is if Batman encounters him directly without a means to ward him off (i.e. an Elder Sign).

And, if you wanna say that Batman losing his sanity and spending the rest of his days a gibbering lunatic in the depths of the very asylum he's put so many villains before is a way for Cthulhu to win, then fine. In that case, it's sort of a tie, being that Batman's loss of sanity is a result of his foiling Cthulhu.

However, if you're absolutely so certain that there is no way for anyone, even Batman to best Chtulhu... Then why not suggest something a bit easier for him? Say, Father Dagon or Mother Hydra. Can Batman stop the plotting of a pair of the biggest, oldest Deep Ones on our planet?
How about a Cthonian? Or maybe a Dhole, or an invasion of flying Polyps? C'mon, there's an entire mythos out there. Let's get off the Cthulhu-kick and bring something else up for once.


Oh, and by the by: Hi, I'm Ralf! I've been reading the comic and forums for a while (mostly just the forum on the comic), and I thought the time had come for me to jump right in. No one likes a "hi, I'm new!" thread, so I figured now might be the opportunity to introduce myself, being that I've entrenched myself in a ridiculous discussion on the contest of two entirely different genres of storytelling.

Ing
2006-07-02, 11:10 PM
S
- If a member of the Great Race of Yith sends one of their members forward through space and time to possess Batman and make preperations through him to stop Cthulhu, then he has won through no fault of his own


you know i was giong to criticise and make a witty/stupid comment but....

that idea is actually pretty damn good.... that's make a good comic story

Ralfarius
2006-07-02, 11:32 PM
Ah hah! I have appeased a cultist. Perhaps now you won't kidnap me to harvest my pituitary gland through some horrific, ungodly ritual?

Abd al-Azrad
2006-07-03, 01:06 AM
Also, I am so sick of Cthulu. Why is he so special? What about Yog-Sothoth or Nyarlathotep?

Yes. These are more powerful, ineffable beings from the Mythos. But the fact is, from the commonly known legends surrounding blobby and howlie, they can't be beaten at all. I mean, literally unstoppable, to the point where our attempts even to slow their cults have no effect on the beings.

I guess Cthulhu is still fair game in a fight because it fights like a mortal- an epic caster mortal the size of a mountain, but still a mortal.

CelestialStick
2006-07-03, 01:30 AM
Ah hah! I have appeased a cultist. Perhaps now you won't kidnap me to harvest my pituitary gland through some horrific, ungodly ritual?
No, appeasing them just sets you off as an easy mark for future sacrifice. ;)

SmellMyFinger
2006-07-03, 01:47 AM
Any superhero would foil any deity or demigod bent on the destruction of humankind, provided the events took place in a normal comic book, TV show, or movie.

Why? Because if the superhero loses, that's the end of the franchise. People have already mentioned several ways for the hero to prevail, my favorites being:

Calling in the cavalry in the form of other superheroes. However, I don't think calling in Superman is the best way to go. He used to be vulnerable to magic. So you'd call in whoever Superman calls in. Dr Fate, I suppose.

Defeating the being's lesser minions without confronting it directly. That was the approach used in The Doom that Came to Gotham, an Elseworlds title. The unnameable cosmic horror in that one was named Yib-Nogeroth. I think they didn't bother paying for any copyrights because as far as I know, that name doesn't appear in Lovecraft.

My favorite is to simply drop a bomb on it. Of course, you wouldn't want to drop a bomb until you know it's the end of the comic, then it's sure to work. If you do it too early it'll probably not go off or the being would re-form. Would Batman have access to bombs. You bet! He probably has kryptonite-tipped nukes in a custom batshaped anti-personnel launcher stashed for the day Superman gets out of line.

If the setting was a game, sure, Batman's probably dead, especially if the setting was like a boxing ring.

The setting wouldn't be a published novel or story by one of Lovecraft's imitators, even if you could find one who'd be interested. DC isn't going to give the rights to somebody who's going to kill off their character. That right there is the reason why superheroes win. The profitable ones, anyway.

Actually, Batman's continutity would probably drive Cthulhu mad if he tried to comprehend it.

CelestialStick
2006-07-03, 01:54 AM
Any superhero would foil any deity or demigod bent on the destruction of humankind, provided the events took place in a normal comic book, TV show, or movie.

Why? Because if the superhero loses, that's the end of the franchise. People have already mentioned several ways for the hero to prevail, my favorites being:

Calling in the cavalry in the form of other superheroes. However, I don't think calling in Superman is the best way to go. He used to be vulnerable to magic. So you'd call in whoever Superman calls in. Dr Fate, I suppose.

Defeating the being's lesser minions without confronting it directly. That was the approach used in The Doom that Came to Gotham, an Elseworlds title. The unnameable cosmic horror in that one was named Yib-Nogeroth. I think they didn't bother paying for any copyrights because as far as I know, that name doesn't appear in Lovecraft.

My favorite is to simply drop a bomb on it. Of course, you wouldn't want to drop a bomb until you know it's the end of the comic, then it's sure to work. If you do it too early it'll probably not go off or the being would re-form. Would Batman have access to bombs. You bet! He probably has kryptonite-tipped nukes in a custom batshaped anti-personnel launcher stashed for the day Superman gets out of line.

If the setting was a game, sure, Batman's probably dead, especially if the setting was like a boxing ring.

The setting wouldn't be a published novel or story by one of Lovecraft's imitators, even if you could find one who'd be interested. DC isn't going to give the rights to somebody who's going to kill off their character. That right there is the reason why superheroes win. The profitable ones, anyway.

Actually, Batman's continutity would probably drive Cthulhu mad if he tried to comprehend it.
Good points all around, although DC has killed off a superhero or three, especially since 1985.

I'd have to say though that Batman's continuity has been, well, more nearly continuous than the continuities of some of the other DC superheroes. I seem to recall trying to wade through a very confusing Wikipedia article on the Wonder Woman franchise. ;)

Beleriphon
2006-07-03, 02:15 AM
Good points all around, although DC has killed off a superhero or three, especially since 1985.

I'd have to say though that Batman's continuity has been, well, more nearly continuous than the continuities of some of the other DC superheroes. I seem to recall trying to wade through a very confusing Wikipedia article on the Wonder Woman franchise. ;)

If nothing else, Batman's total lack of a clear origin has made the job of keeping track of him is fairly easy. Perhaps Batman is really Cthulu in disguise. Hmmm.... things to consider.

Jarl
2006-07-03, 03:15 AM
If nothing else, Batman's total lack of a clear origin has made the job of keeping track of him is fairly easy. Perhaps Batman is really Cthulu in disguise. Hmmm.... things to consider.
I still say that Batman is Nyarlathotep. It makes sense, only because it doesn't.

-I did come up with a situation, for an LoEG fan fic, in which Nyarlathotep technically loses in a fight (versus Kato and the Shadow) but it required the use of a powerful anti-Deep One/Elder God/Evil Dudez artifact, a situation in which Nyarl was somewhat limited in his options, and Ice-9. And he still survived.

Baelfyre
2006-07-03, 04:24 AM
I have lost 4 SAN just reading this thread.

A point that has been missed though is that Batman is already nuckin futs... so all that's going to happen from study is another couple of Vengeance obsessions.

Spuddly
2006-07-03, 05:18 AM
Batman always wins, yet Cthulhu is the Big C.

Hasn't Batman gone up against far superior things before, and won, though?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/populaceintwo/SupermanBatman012-13.jpg

Batman always wins because he'll do anything to win, including asking help from other people.

I could even see Batman repeating the Unspeakable One's name thrice just to defeat Cthulhu.

Abd al-Azrad
2006-07-03, 12:34 PM
Batman always wins because he'll do anything to win, including asking help from other people.

I could even see Batman repeating the Unspeakable One's name thrice just to defeat Cthulhu.

Well played.

Were-Sandwich
2006-07-03, 12:40 PM
^^What the hell is that?

Tarlonniel
2006-07-03, 12:45 PM
^^What the hell is that?

My thought exactly :P

Ing
2006-07-03, 12:49 PM
((head asplodes))


truelly that was a comic version of the Necronomicon

gooddragon1
2006-07-03, 12:54 PM
This is my guess.
“Know one part of the name, obsession begins. Know two parts, paranoia sets in. Know three parts, madness descends. Know all, and only the kami know what will become of you.”
—Lady Azami
Its from reach through mists flavor text and its refering to the unspeakable

Tarlonniel
2006-07-03, 01:04 PM
Ah. Here's the story behind that panel.

In a typical comic-book twist, the super-beings don't, in the end, save the day. That job gets reserved for the human among them, Batman. Proving himself impossibly clever, he somehow figures out the alien computer network and reprograms Darkseid's arsenal to explode. Now these weapons hold unimaginable power, and their detonation would destroy the entire planet, Darkseid, and, possibly, the Kryptonians. Exactly how Bruce Wayne manages this in the time provided isn't explained-- some things even Batman shouldn't be able to do-- but he alone knows the reprogrammed deactivation code. His hard-nosed gamble pays off; Darkseid promises to let them go, and to never bother Kara Zor-El again.
Totally plausible....
If Batman is god and completely insane. :P

Ing
2006-07-03, 01:07 PM
this is y people hate batman


jesus seymor phillip hoffman christ!

that's lame.

Tarlonniel
2006-07-03, 01:12 PM
I could buy it as a bluff - we all know Batman's very good at deception, and Darkseid might not know him well enough to see through it. But I don't think that was the case.

Haggis_McCrablice
2006-07-03, 01:13 PM
That's Darkseid, Lord of Apokolips. Now I can't say definitively that Darkie's on par with the big C, but both are infinitely cruel, both rule over a hell-world, and both are worshipped as gods by their followers.

Batman does have a strict rule about killing, although he's not adverse to, say, getting information out of a suspect dangling him from his ankle off a 20-story building until he starts talking. Superman--not so much. Batman seems to have a flair for the theatrical, preferring psychology and fear as a weapon to brute force, although he is a skilled fighter.

Tarlonniel
2006-07-03, 01:18 PM
Superman--not so much.

The modern version, no. Batman could learn quite a few tricks from the 1930s version tho ;D

Ralfarius
2006-07-03, 07:36 PM
I have lost 4 SAN just reading this thread.

A point that has been missed though is that Batman is already nuckin futs... so all that's going to happen from study is another couple of Vengeance obsessions.
Actually, I made mention to it in my first post, and it's been brought up at least twice more. But, reiteration is always appreciated :D

Jarl
2006-07-03, 08:19 PM
Does he kill people in the original movies? I can't remember.
I mean, yeah, he kills the main villains in a few (Joker, Penguine, and Two-Face I think), but I seem to remember the crooks at the beginning of the first one talking about how he threw one off a building.

-Michael Keaton. Who would have possibly thought that he, of all people, could play Batman? Seriously. And, aside from Christian Bale, I never quite bought anyone else as Batman.

Solara
2006-07-04, 12:23 AM
The original movies are crap. They are outlawed from being a part of this discussion. Even forcing me to remember they exist is more of a threat to my sanity than Cthulu himself could be. (Okay...except for the the one with Jack Nicholson. It had its moments.)

I've heard of Darkseid but only have the vaguest idea of who he is. (I'm still obsessed with Batman but don't really keep up with thecomic books anymore...too expensive, plus I prefer the more realistic, grittier Gotham with no JLA around that I used to read about.)

Still, he must not know Bruce very well if he honestly thought he's blow up an entire planet. Batman's even risked his life to save the Joker. (Though of course I don't know much of the context of that situatio - if it was somehow a choice between Earth and a bunch of aliens, then okay, it would make more sense...but still, I think it was nothing but a bluff that that big scary demon guy bought hook, line, and sinker.

P.S. Hi Ralf! Great posts. :)

CelestialStick
2006-07-05, 01:55 AM
If nothing else, Batman's total lack of a clear origin has made the job of keeping track of him is fairly easy. Perhaps Batman is really Cthulu in disguise. Hmmm.... things to consider.
I don't know what you mean by "Batman's total lack of a clear origin." Batman has a fairly clear origin: Bruce Wayne as a child sees his parents gunned down on the way home after a show, and he vows that when he grows up he will do all he can to prevent this sort of thing from happening to others. Of all the DC superheroes, I don't think anyone other than Superman has had such a consistent origin.


The original movies are crap. They are outlawed from being a part of this discussion. Even forcing me to remember they exist is more of a threat to my sanity than Cthulu himself could be. (Okay...except for the the one with Jack Nicholas. It had its moments.)
Actually the original Batman movie came out in the 1960s and starred Adam West. :D

As for "Jack Nicholas" I really loved him in the 1990s movie, Batman and Joker Claus. ;)

Beleriphon
2006-07-05, 05:34 AM
I don't know what you mean by "Batman's total lack of a clear origin." Batman has a fairly clear origin: Bruce Wayne as a child sees his parents gunned down on the way home after a show, and he vows that when he grows up he will do all he can to prevent this sort of thing from happening to others. Of all the DC superheroes, I don't think anyone other than Superman has had such a consistent origin.


I didn't explain well enough. We all know what Bruce Wayne watches his parents get gunned down in some back alley. He becomes Batman to avenge their deaths, and prevent more, so we have a start and motivation. The comics have been decidely sparse in nearly 70 years about who trains Bruce. With Clark we have a fairly well established time line and what he was doing before showing up in Metropolis. Batman is much less clear, there have been limited hints about where he learns all of his tricks, but never has it be spelled out explicitly.



As for "Jack Nicholas" I really loved him in the 1990s movie, Batman and Joker Claus. ;)

Really, I thought Jack Nicholas was in the one where Batman had to win the Gotham Country Club tourney using the batclubs. :P

Tokeloshe
2006-07-05, 06:39 AM
Batman I and II, were alright. Then Virgin got ahold of the franchise. They castrated it.

Then, finally after years of people telling the guys at Virgin that the Adam West Batman ceased to be cool at about the same time as the release of the animated series, Batman Begins was released.

That still doesn't excuse having George Clooney as Batman though.

Hoseki
2006-07-05, 10:13 AM
What part of 'we will all be eaten' excludes the Bat?

Honestly.

Solara
2006-07-05, 01:38 PM
As for "Jack Nicholas" I really loved him in the 1990s movie, Batman and Joker Claus. Wink


What are you talking about? I'm sure if you'll take another look at my post, you'll see no mention of 'Jack Nicholas'. I guess you just read it wrong the first time? ;)

Tarlonniel
2006-07-05, 01:55 PM
I thought Jack Nicholas was in the one where Batman had to win the Gotham Country Club tourney using the batclubs. :P

Darn it, I missed that one. Sounds like a classic! ;D

Beleriphon
2006-07-05, 07:52 PM
Darn it, I missed that one. Sounds like a classic! ;D

It was good, and Robin makes an excellent caddy.

Ing
2006-07-05, 08:28 PM
I remember that one...

Bane popped up out of the sand trap and shoved Batman into the 8th hole

it was a dark movie