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CelestialStick
2006-06-23, 01:57 AM
Ok, I was joking when I first suggested this thread topic on another thread, but then I started thinking about it.

Apparently Xykon can turn someone into an undead by a mere touch. That means that if he gets one successful touch attack on Batman, it's Bat-zombie time. So if Batman goes in cold, he's probably toast.

If he knows about Xykon's powers ahead of time, he can fight a distance battle, and try to take out Xykon's body with explosive Batarangs or something. (Frankly it's stupid that he'll use explosives but not guns, but I digress.) Once Batman has destroyed the current lich body, he can figure out what the phylactery is and destroy it too.

The thing is that Batman almost always gets his cowl handed to him during the first encounter with a badguy. Xykon won't beat him up and leave him unconscious like all the typical Batman opponents--Xykon will just turn him into a zombie. So I'm going to give this one to Xykon.

Of course it's really up to the author as always, isn't it? I mean Rich had Roy physically tear the lich body apart, and why didn't Xykon just touch Roy and turn him into a zombie then? Plot device. The same could go for Batman: Batman uses his martial arts abilities to destroy the lich body, thinking he has eliminated the threat, only to find later that Xykon is back and worse than ever. In that case Batman might learn the easy way that Xykon can't be killed merely by destroying his lich body, and come prepared to find the phylactery the second time.

Saithis Bladewing
2006-06-23, 02:07 AM
Xykon wins in a straight-up fight, but Batman wins with preperation.

;)

If people don't realize I'm taking the piss by now, they are sad individuals...

Holy_Knight
2006-06-23, 02:22 AM
I think Xykon has to first kill the opponent and then cast a spell to animate them as zombies, rather than just touch them. It's just that this all takes place so quickly with sacrificial minions that it appears to be less steps than it is.

Aside from that, Batman has fought supernatural enemies on other occasions (not my favorite stories, really, but it has happened) and has defeated them. So Batman's got a decent chance against Xykon.

CelestialStick
2006-06-23, 02:31 AM
Xykon wins in a straight-up fight, but Batman wins with preperation.

;)

If people don't realize I'm taking the piss by now, they are sad individuals...
I guess Batman Mary Sue must have some, um, discomfort under the Bat-suit since he she always requires Preparation H. :D

Edit: Is your use of "taking a piss" a British idiomatic expression? I mean in American English of course we use it to mean "urinating" but it sounds from context like you mean that you're making fun of something (not clear whether that's the whole Batman Mary Sue v. thread idea or just of the "with preparation Batman Mary Sue always wins" line that now gives us all such a laugh.)


I think Xykon has to first kill the opponent and then cast a spell to animate them as zombies, rather than just touch them. It's just that this all takes place so quickly with sacrificial minions that it appears to be less steps than it is.

Aside from that, Batman has fought supernatural enemies on other occasions (not my favorite stories, really, but it has happened) and has defeated them. So Batman's got a decent chance against Xykon.

It's easy to say that Batman Mary Sue might win, but provide us with some details of how he she might win.

Saithis Bladewing
2006-06-23, 02:32 AM
I guess Batman must have some, um, discomfort under the Bat-suit since he always requires Preparation H. :D

Hehehe! ;D

CelestialStick
2006-06-23, 02:34 AM
Hehehe! ;D

;D

Holy_Knight
2006-06-23, 02:46 AM
It's easy to say that Batman Mary Sue might win, but provide us with some details of how he might win.
I might at some point, but I'm kind of tired right now. (I did just do the whole Batman vs. The OoTS fight). The first step would definitely involve horrible consequences for anyone calling him "Mary Sue" though. ;)

Alchemistmerlin
2006-06-23, 02:47 AM
Here's the problem
Mary Sue has plot armor due to the very nature of BEING mary sue.

Xykon has plot armor because he is the BBEG and can't be defeated unless it is at the hands of roy/the oots.

Therefore, they both just plot armor each other back into their respective dimensions.

Haggis_McCrablice
2006-06-23, 04:24 AM
Batman has faced a skullheaded enemy once before: Dr. Destiny in Justice League. So if he could somehow drive Xykon crazy by repetitively humming "Frere Jacques" and force the lich to magically knock himself out to escape the unmitigated hell that is Batman's mind, he'd be okay. ;)

Archonic Energy
2006-06-23, 09:47 AM
Is your use of "taking a piss" a British idiomatic expression? I mean in American English of course we use it to mean "urinating" but it sounds from context like you mean that you're making fun of something

yes "taking the piss" is an expression to mean make fun of. also "taking the michael" "taking the mick" and in london "taking the riddle" but as a londoner i would shoot anyone for using that last one.

CelestialStick
2006-06-23, 10:50 AM
I might at some point, but I'm kind of tired right now. (I did just do the whole Batman vs. The OoTS fight). The first step would definitely involve horrible consequences for anyone calling him "Mary Sue" though. ;)
What are you doing reading and posting if you're that tired. You should be in bed, young man! I'm sure that Batman Mary Sue would not approve! :D


Here's the problem
Mary Sue has plot armor due to the very nature of BEING mary sue.

Xykon has plot armor because he is the BBEG and can't be defeated unless it is at the hands of roy/the oots.

Therefore, they both just plot armor each other back into their respective dimensions.
Alas, it's all too true. ;)




yes "taking the piss" is an expression to mean make fun of. also "taking the michael" "taking the mick" and in london "taking the riddle" but as a londoner i would shoot anyone for using that last one.
Ah, thanks for the explanation. Now would you object to anyone using the "taking the riddle" or only to a non-Londoner?



Batman has faced a skullheaded enemy once before: Dr. Destiny in Justice League. So if he could somehow drive Xykon crazy by repetitively humming "Frere Jacques" and force the lich to magically knock himself out to escape the unmitigated hell that is Batman's mind, he'd be okay. ;)
This would work better if the song you have him hum has some relation to either OOTS or the OOTS boards, like "Let's Go Out to the Lobby" from Battle of the Movie Theater Snack Foods or "The Ballad of Bilbo Baggins" a link to which someone posted on these boards and which has since infected the minds of many of us. :D Indeed I'm fairly certain that anyone could take out Xykon by making him listen to the Ballad of Bilbo Baggins just once... ;)

chibibar
2006-06-23, 12:49 PM
I don't think Batman has much defense against magic (again there might be but I haven't read much about it)

There are many spells that can be use at a distant :)

Were-Sandwich
2006-06-23, 02:36 PM
There are many ways for Xykon to kill Mary Sue. Slay Living, Unholy Blight, Finger Of Death, the list is amasingly long. So, no Mary Sue will die.

HORAY!!!!

Spider_Jerusalem
2006-06-23, 02:42 PM
Batman wins with preparation?

You see... if batman can have his so mighty preparation, why couldn't Xykon have? You see, Xykon, being able to cast magic, can use divinations in his favor and blah blah blah... I don't see the stupid "preparation" thing as an advantage to Batman.

chibibar
2006-06-23, 02:47 PM
Batman wins with preparation?

You see... if batman can have his so mighty preparation, why couldn't Xykon have? You see, Xykon, being able to cast magic, can use divinations in his favor and blah blah blah... I don't see the stupid "preparation" thing as an advantage to Batman.

agree... Xykon DOES have that crystal ball (picture in picture open WITH sounds) :)

yea.. Xykon can sooooo see Batman's every preparation.

Saithis Bladewing
2006-06-23, 04:06 PM
Batman could use the great wealth of Wayne Industries to buy OotS from Rich and edit it as he pleases. Game, set, match. Batman is the victor.

NEO|Phyte
2006-06-23, 04:07 PM
Batman could use the great wealth of Wayne Industries to buy OotS from Rich and edit it as he pleases. Game, set, match. Batman is the victor.
...do you really think Rich would sell the beloved OotS?

Keebler_the_Elf
2006-06-23, 04:16 PM
Batman could use the great wealth of Wayne Industries to buy OotS from Rich and edit it as he pleases. *Game, set, match. *Batman is the victor.


Or The Giant could use his incredible art and story-telling skills to include the Bats in the plot and have him be Xykon's next victim.

CelestialStick
2006-06-24, 03:25 AM
Batman wins with preparation?

You see... if batman can have his so mighty preparation, why couldn't Xykon have? You see, Xykon, being able to cast magic, can use divinations in his favor and blah blah blah... I don't see the stupid "preparation" thing as an advantage to Batman.
Back a few months ago when people started the current spate of "Batman v. [Opponent]" threads, there were a few posters who just said over and over again, "With preparation Batman always wins." It didn't matter how powerful the opponent was, these posters always said the same thing, and rarely could be bothered to, for instance, invent a plausible way in which Batman might actually win. Their faith in their Bat-deity got so silly that people started lampooning it just by repeating it, and now it's become an in-joke of these threads. I'm pretty sure that Kestrel was making that in-joke when she wrote that "Xykon wins in a straight-up fight, but Batman wins with preperation," and I'd be completely certain if I had some time for preparation. ;)



I don't think Batman has much defense against magic (again there might be but I haven't read much about it)

There are many spells that can be use at a distant :)




There are many ways for Xykon to kill Mary Sue. Slay Living, Unholy Blight, Finger Of Death, the list is amasingly long. So, no Mary Sue will die.

HORAY!!!!

Now these are good points, fellows. In fairness to Batman, however, I need to point out that he would get a saving throw against the spells that allow saving throws, and he does have a good touch AC against the ones that don't. I figure he's about a 20th-level monk or so, which would give him good base saves in all three saving throws. He's also obviously got a high Constitution and a very high Dexterity score. I'm not sure about his Wisdom though. He does have extremely high will-power, perception and intuition, but not so much common sense maybe. Ok, I'm going to say that he still has a resonably good Wisdom score. So he's going to add some good ability score modifiers to his three good base saving throws and have some excellent total save bonuses.

Also I'll point out that while Xykon has ranged attacks, so does Batman. I know this is one of the stupid contradictions in DC's portrayal of him, but while he wouldn't use a rifle to take a shot from beyong fireball range, he's not above firing missiles from his Batplane that go even farther and have a much more lethal punch. Especially with Xykon leading a huge army, Batman could fly in and launch some missiles at Xykon's HQ. If he got lucky the missiles might even blow up the phylactery, but even if they don't, they can blow up Xykon's skeleton, and allow Batman to come in destroy the phylactery (if he can figure out what it is) by hand.

Of course Xykon might be able to use a crystal ball or scrying spell to spy on Batman. Remember though that under 3.5 rules you can scry only on creatures, not on places, and the creature gets a Will saving throw. So it might take Xykon two or three tries to scry on Batman, and if Xykon limits himself to using the crystal ball, that means two or three days before he gets to scry on Batman. Of course Xykon could just memorize a few scrying spells and try it several times in rapid succession if necessary.

So while I'm going to give this one to Batman, I think it's by no means a foregone conclusion. Xykon could win.

Holy_Knight
2006-06-24, 03:43 AM
Back a few months ago when people started the current spate of "Batman v. [Opponent]" threads, there were a few posters who just said over and over again, "With preparation Batman always wins." It didn't matter how powerful the opponent was, these posters always said the same thing, and rarely could be bothered to, for instance, invent a plausible way in which Batman might actually win. Their faith in their Bat-deity got so silly that people started lampooning it just by repeating it, and now it's become an in-joke of these threads. I'm pretty sure that Kestrel was making that in-joke when she wrote that "Xykon wins in a straight-up fight, but Batman wins with preperation," and I'd be completely certain if I had some time for preparation. ;)

Yep, and for simplicity's sake, we can now refer to it as the "Prepared Batman Always WinsTM" law*, or "PBAWTM".




*Law for entertainment purposes only. Must be above 18 or have parents' permission to invoke. Void where prohibited by common sense. Kansas residents add $1.50 "frequent use" charge.


There are many ways for Xykon to kill Mary Sue. Slay Living, Unholy Blight, Finger Of Death, the list is amasingly long. So, no Mary Sue will die.

HORAY!!!!

Nah, you know that Batman's saving throws have to be amazing.

CelestialStick
2006-06-24, 04:04 AM
Yep, and for simplicity's sake, we can now refer to it as the "Prepared Batman Always WinsTM" law*, or "PBAWTM".




*Law for entertainment purposes only. Must be above 18 or have parents' permission to invoke. Void where prohibited by common sense. Kansas residents add $1.50 "frequent use" charge.

Poor Kansas. I just read an alternate DC storyline where Superman and the Justice League set up a prison in Kansas for all the out-of-control metahumans who won't abide by the rules of the Justice League. Luthor managed to get a nuke through to destroy the prison, obliterating most of the world's superheroes and all of the state if Kansas in the process. And now you're adding a new tax on top of that! :D



Nah, you know that Batman's saving throws have to be amazing.
I already said something similar, but in a more balanced fashion, without the hyperbole. ;D

Holy_Knight
2006-06-24, 04:11 AM
Poor Kansas. I just read an alternate DC storyline where Superman and the Justice League set up a prison in Kansas for all the out-of-control metahumans who won't abide by the rules of the Justice League. Luthor managed to get a nuke through to destroy the prison, obliterating most of the world's superheroes and all of the state if Kansas in the process. And now you're adding a new tax on top of that! :D
Kingdom Come?



I already said something similar, but in a more balanced fashion, without the hyperbole. ;D
I know, but you added it while I was posting, so I hadn't seen it yet... :)

Dawnstrider_Moogle
2006-06-24, 11:10 AM
Poor Kansas. I just read an alternate DC storyline where Superman and the Justice League set up a prison in Kansas for all the out-of-control metahumans who won't abide by the rules of the Justice League. Luthor managed to get a nuke through to destroy the prison, obliterating most of the world's superheroes and all of the state if Kansas in the process. And now you're adding a new tax on top of that! :D


I already said something similar, but in a more balanced fashion, without the hyperbole. ;D

Yeah, but the state of Kansas was already lost when some baddie tore up Captain Atom...

but yes, poor Kansas.

Oh, and Xykon's almost as much of a long term planner as Batman is, methinks.

Archonic Energy
2006-06-24, 12:00 PM
Ah, thanks for the explanation. Now would you object to anyone using the "taking the riddle" or only to a non-Londoner?

Anyone attempting to use cokney rhyming slang wether londoner or not should be summarayly executed. no if's. no but's. DEAD

tis_tom
2006-06-24, 12:06 PM
Xykon all the way... I have no idea how anyone got it into their heads Batman can win anything 'with preperation', the fact is that Batman is a mortal human of our own world! (or at least, one closer to our world than that of the order of the stick's world)

If Batman came across Xykon, a powerful lich sorceror, he'd be too busy thinking "how in the name of god can a corpse be walking around?!" to think of a daring plan, meanwhile Xykon would just blast him with a spell, killing Batman, who has no magic proof armour to speak of.

Now if Batman had prepared himself, and come to understand how a Lich lives and walks the earth, he'd have to figure out where Xykon's phylactory (sp?) is, and to do that he'd have to enter a castle full of goblins, zombies, and goblin zombies to even scout it out! Batman wouldn't be able to sneak around Xykon to find his power source also because RedCloak is always with him! Xykon would see batman, and zap him!

finally! If it was just Xykon vs Batman, redcloak wouldn't be around. Thus, Xykon never dies. ever. And Batman eventually tires out and collapses.

Xykon- 1, Batman- 0

Spider_Jerusalem
2006-06-24, 01:35 PM
Batman could use the great wealth of Wayne Industries to buy OotS from Rich and edit it as he pleases. *Game, set, match. *Batman is the victor.

Burlew wouldn't sell OotS. He's already Rich :P