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anphorus
2006-06-26, 07:10 PM
I've been reading this spate of vs. threads recently and it's been quite entertaining, but I seem to keep thinking that Superman seems to win most fights with anyone he's put up against. So lets make things a little more interesting.

Superman: He's super strong, fast, can fly, is invulnerble and has all those vision powers.

Doctor Manhattan: Can control the very atoms of the matter around him, knows the path of his entire future.

Discuss.

The Glyphstone
2006-06-26, 08:47 PM
Dr. Manhattan knows if he'll win or lose, doesn't he?

Steward
2006-06-26, 08:53 PM
I'd have to give this to Dr. Manhattan. Superman is the superior character but Dr. Manhattan is simply stronger, faster, and all-around more powerful.

Holy_Knight
2006-06-26, 10:48 PM
I think Superman can win this... details to come later.

...and frankly, I really want Superman to win this. Dr. Manhattan pisses me off. >:(

I'll come up with a way for Clark to score a victory here, you mark my words...

Dhavaer
2006-06-26, 11:01 PM
Manhattan simply makes Supes go pop, or turns him into a flowerpot.

CelestialStick
2006-06-26, 11:24 PM
I think Superman can win this... details to come later.

...and frankly, I really want Superman to win this. Dr. Manhattan pisses me off. >:(

I'll come up with a way for Clark to score a victory here, you mark my words...
I'd never heard of Dr. Manhattan before, so I read about him on Wikipedia. He sounds like a combination of Superman and Captain Atom--indeed, according to this article none of the Watchmen was an original character--and if so that would make it very hard for Superman to defeat him.

I can think of two ways. Dr. Manhattan has trouble remaining in the here and now, or seeing humanity as anything important. A couple of good super-blows from Superman and Dr. Manhattan would think, "ouch, this is so not worth the effort" and teleport away. ;D

More seriously, Superman could probably just dump Dr. Manhattan for all eternity in the Phantom Zone. :D

Sophistemon
2006-06-27, 02:21 AM
That depends on whether or not Doc Manhattan would let himself feel the blows. Besides that, this is the Doc we're talking about. He's not a superhero, he's a god. Or as close to one as you can be.

"What do you want to be in the bottle?"

The Doc's powers are, according to Wikipedia:
Control over space, time, matter and energy, Flight, Invulnerability, Immortality, Superhuman strength, speed and endurance, Invulnerability, Telepathy, Precognition, Teleportation. Supes, though mighty, would lose.

Runolfr
2006-06-27, 03:51 PM
Doctor Manhattan is the sort of adversary that would be a problem for the entire Justice League, let alone Supes by himself.

ChristopherDK
2006-06-27, 05:20 PM
I think a qoute from the last book from the Doc. manhattan sums it up

(it's translated from Danish, so might be different worded in english)

"I find humans interesting, in time I might create some"

he says something similar when he leaves ...
and he can create several aspects of himself and he is able to control the atoms.

Supes is powerful, but he isn't a god.

as i see it

superman = a greek god/demigod like herkules or similar
dr. manhattan = not quite The God, but very close.

Supes lose

Piedmon_Sama
2006-06-27, 05:48 PM
Pitting the Doc in a Versus match is generally not a good idea. He's virtually omnipotent--he's literally reformed his own body from complete disentigration.

The only character I think who would stand a chance at defeating Dr. Manhattan would be The Saint of Killers, from Preacher. He's got the bullets to kill God Almighty himself. The problem is, the Doc would see the Saint coming before even the Saint knew....

Abd al-Azrad
2006-06-27, 05:55 PM
You know, I'd like to imagine this is a fair fight, because they're both blue, but Dr. Manhattan has the ability to literally do anything. I don't even know why he can see the future, or manipulate time, like he does- these aren't really related to atoms- but how easy is it for Dr. Manhattan to, say, disintegrate Superman with a thought from any point in the universe? Or, manufacture Kryptonite?

If anyone could convince the Doc to fight, it would be over before it began.

North
2006-06-27, 06:24 PM
Yeah Dr Manhattan would win once Superman bothered him enough. He really could just ignore him even if Supes went all out.

Steward
2006-06-27, 06:43 PM
The only character I think who would stand a chance at defeating Dr. Manhattan would be The Saint of Killers, from Preacher. He's got the bullets to kill God Almighty himself. The problem is, the Doc would see the Saint coming before even the Saint knew....

Are you sure that's the only guy who can attack Dr. Manhattan?

I think of plenty of other godlike balls of cheese with the same powers as the Doctor:

Mr. Mxyzptlk, a super-powerful imp from the fifth dimension. His powers are so mighty that they can essentially be considered magic to any. The only being that he answers to is his dimension's legal bureaucracy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mxyzptlk)

Speaking of legal systems, Marvel has conjured up a heavyweight prizefighter of its own. Empowered with every 'omni' adjective in the world, this heavyweight judicial entity has what it takes to put the hurt on any upstart mortal. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Living_Tribunal)

The queen bee of immortality, the Beyonder has pretty much every power that you can think off in his condensed travelling case. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beyonder)

In this other corner waits Mr. Unpronounceable. With his amazing powers over reality itself, Mr. M knows how to bring down anybody. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._M)

For some added muscle, consider Galactus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactus), and his loser twin brother Omnipotus! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotus)

And finally, bringing up the rear is...The Tick! He's invulnerable to injury. This guy once fell a hundred feet without suffering even the slightest bit of damage. Rearranging his molecules, even with supernatural assistance, would be akin to trying to rearrange individual air molecules with your bare hands. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tick)

Yeah, I'd think that old Doc would have something to worry about if these guys showed up at his house late at night looking for a fight.

CelestialStick
2006-06-27, 09:34 PM
Are you sure that's the only guy who can attack Dr. Manhattan?

I think of plenty of other godlike balls of cheese with the same powers as the Doctor:

Mr. Mxyzptlk, a super-powerful imp from the fifth dimension. His powers are so mighty that they can essentially be considered magic to any. The only being that he answers to is his dimension's legal bureaucracy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mxyzptlk)

Speaking of legal systems, Marvel has conjured up a heavyweight prizefighter of its own. Empowered with every 'omni' adjective in the world, this heavyweight judicial entity has what it takes to put the hurt on any upstart mortal. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Living_Tribunal)

The queen bee of immortality, the Beyonder has pretty much every power that you can think off in his condensed travelling case. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beyonder)

In this other corner waits Mr. Unpronounceable. With his amazing powers over reality itself, Mr. M knows how to bring down anybody. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._M)

For some added muscle, consider Galactus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactus), and his loser twin brother Omnipotus! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotus)

And finally, bringing up the rear is...The Tick! He's invulnerable to injury. This guy once fell a hundred feet without suffering even the slightest bit of damage. Rearranging his molecules, even with supernatural assistance, would be akin to trying to rearrange individual air molecules with your bare hands. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tick)

Yeah, I'd think that old Doc would have something to worry about if these guys showed up at his house late at night looking for a fight.
Superman has twice defeated Mxyzptlk, although these things don't work transitively, so that doesn't mean he can defeat Mr. Manhattan. Still, Mr. Manhattan sounds enough like a Woody Allen character that my money's on Superman.

Hey, does the Tick have any offensive superpowers? Just because Mr. Mahattan can't defeat the Tick doesn't mean the Tick can defeat him. Mr. Manhattan might just ignore the Tick.

tgva8889
2006-06-27, 09:50 PM
This is like all those other Superman fights I've seen. It's Someone vs. God/Close Equivilent of a God. This is the same.

Mr. M sounds like he basically decides he doesn't want Superman to exist and it happens. Reminds me of Q from Star Trek. Now that would be an amusing battle.

CelestialStick
2006-06-27, 09:57 PM
This is like all those other Superman fights I've seen. It's Someone vs. God/Close Equivilent of a God. This is the same.

Mr. M sounds like he basically decides he doesn't want Superman to exist and it happens. Reminds me of Q from Star Trek. Now that would be an amusing battle.
It's funny that some people will complain that Superman's too powerful, and yet there are these superheroes that have essentially unlimited power and no vulnerabilities.

Of course, nobody really likes these superheroes, whereas Superman is one of the most if not the most popular of all time, so that might have something to do with why people don't complain about them being too powerful.

Steward
2006-06-27, 09:59 PM
Superman has twice defeated Mxyzptlk, although these things don't work transitively, so that doesn't mean he can defeat Mr. Manhattan. Still, Mr. Manhattan sounds enough like a Woody Allen character that my money's on Superman.


I'm not saying that Superman would even stand a chance against Manhattan. I was trying to contradict the person who said that the only character they could think of that could beat Doc Manhattan was the Saint of Killers from Preacher.



Hey, does the Tick have any offensive superpowers? Just because Mr. Mahattan can't defeat the Tick doesn't mean the Tick can defeat him. Mr. Manhattan might just ignore the Tick.

He has super-strength.

Besides, my Team of Cheese attacks as a whole. To defeat it, you'd have to defeat the whole team at the same time, not each individual member. That's why I'm risking putting the Tick among them.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-06-27, 10:07 PM
I'm not saying that Superman would even stand a chance against Manhattan. I was trying to contradict the person who said that the only character they could think of that could beat Doc Manhattan was the Saint of Killers from Preacher.

Hi.

The same problem with my choice applies to yours, though. *The Doc would know they were going to attack him before they even got the idea in their heads. *He'd know how the fight turned out, too. *

As for your choices.... 1. *Mr. Mxysptlk is all powerful, yes, but he's also an idiot. *If Superman could trick him into spelling/saying his name backwards, Manhattan would do it quicker.

2. *The Tick might be invulnerable to physical harm, but that wouldn't stop Manhattan from teleporting him into space. *Bam. *As I recall, the Tick still needs oxygen to breath, so that would finish him off pretty quick.

3. *The Living Tribunal and the Beyonder could, conceivably match Manhattan. *It's hard to say because The Doc lives in a universe where he is the only divine-level power, so he's never really been in an old-school Superbeing on Superbeing battle of wills. Galactus, on the other hand, is actually lower than them on the cosmic food-chain. I suspect Manhattan could teleport him far away into the depths of space--and really, what's the worst Galactus could do in return? Fry him with eye-beams? There essentially is no killing Dr. Manhattan.

4. Omnipotus.... is fat. And eats things. I dunno, maybe he could breath in real hard and suck the Doc into his gullet....

Steward
2006-06-27, 10:29 PM
The same problem with my choice applies to yours, though. The Doc would know they were going to attack him before they even got the idea in their heads. He'd know how the fight turned out, too.

I agree. Of course, there are several characters who have time-related powers as the Doc, which of course would allow them to know that he would know that they were planning to attack him. And then he would know that they would know that he would know that they were planning to attack him. And then, of course, they would know that he would know that they would know that he would know that they were planning to attack him. And so on, until the universe would be forced to implode because of the over-cheesiness.

Abd al-Azrad
2006-06-27, 11:06 PM
Besides, my Team of Cheese attacks as a whole. To defeat it, you'd have to defeat the whole team at the same time, not each individual member.

I'd almost say the whole team is a bit excessive. I mean, yes, the guy can manipulate time and matter with a whim, but most of the members of your team of cheese weild power over the very fabric of reality. It's kind of a different level of power, one beyond even Manhattan.

After all, Manhattan is a mortal man, who has accidentally gained some considerable power. It's enough to make him a superhero. It's not enough to fight a God.

Emperor Tippy
2006-06-27, 11:11 PM
hes inmortal, invunerable, knows the future, controls time, controls matter. yeah I woudl put him on terms with or better than preety much everyone except maybe Thanos.

Steward
2006-06-27, 11:13 PM
After all, Manhattan is a mortal man, who has accidentally gained some considerable power. It's enough to make him a superhero. It's not enough to fight a God.

Yes, but he gained far too much power, and in his hubris decided to keep them. Thus, the only way to protect the universe from the twin destructions of a frail mortal ego and the near infinite powerse of Doctor Manhattan is a swift, brutal, and completely monstrous butchering.

Or, you know, we could just let god-beings be god-beings.

CelestialStick
2006-06-28, 12:09 AM
I'm not saying that Superman would even stand a chance against Manhattan. I was trying to contradict the person who said that the only character they could think of that could beat Doc Manhattan was the Saint of Killers from Preacher.
I didn't say you said that. I was criticizing the people who whine that Superman is too poweful.

Abd al-Azrad
2006-06-28, 01:35 AM
hes inmortal, invunerable, knows the future, controls time, controls matter. yeah I woudl put him on terms with or better than preety much everyone except maybe Thanos.

He doesn't control time or know the future, he perceives time more accurately than you do. He's not invulnerable- he is destroyed more than once, he just has the ability to reform under some circumstances. He's not omniscient, as anyone who knows who Dr. Manhattan is knows due to his fate at the end of the story. And who knows how immortal he is, considering he's lived, what, 30 years?

He controls matter. Period. And he likes to rant about how cool he is.

Emperor Tippy
2006-06-28, 01:43 AM
I was goign off the wikipedia article. Which says those things.

Abd al-Azrad
2006-06-28, 01:45 AM
I was goign off the wikipedia article. Which says those things.

Read Watchmen! Now!

Edit: The above wasn't big enough.

Steward
2006-06-28, 08:34 AM
He controls matter. Period. And he likes to rant about how cool he is.

You make that power seem weak, somehow.


Control over space, time, matter and energy, Flight, Invulnerability, Immortality, Superhuman strength, speed and endurance, Invulnerability, Telepathy, Precognition, Teleportation

You may want to edit his Wikipedia article however to reflect that, since a lot of people 'seem to think' that he can fly or something.

Foxer
2006-06-28, 11:00 AM
Superman vs. Doc Manhattan = Super-toast.

Going by the old DC RPG stats, Doc Manhattan's omni-power allows him to duplicate any power going (except sorcery) at a level equal to (or as near as makes no odds) Superman's.

The entire Super-family couldn't take Manhattan, even with foreknowledge and time to plan. Superman, Superboy and Supergirl can't even touch him unless he lets them, whilst he can disassemble them atom-by-atom with the slightest thought.

I suppose that Steel could build a gadget that disrupted some of his his powers... but look how well that worked in Watchmen. The Eradicator might also stand a chance using a similar tactic, using advanced Kryptonian science (TM), but on the strength of the beating he took off Majestros not so long ago, I'd guess not.

Now, Galactus might get the job done. I'm not a huge Marvel fan, but I imagine the big guy could consume and distroy the energy/information pattern that Doc Manhattan is made of. On the other hand, Doc M can teleport Galactus into the nearest black hole or whatever without breaking sweat, so that one's a bit of the proverbial "knife fight in a phone booth."