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DiscipleofBob
2010-05-14, 09:43 PM
One of my biggest problems with both Marvel and DC is that they keep trying to take a continuity with so many different writers, poor decisions, retcons, plot holes, etc. Instead of doing a reboot of whichever franchise they like every decade or so, some catastrophe like One More Day happens because Spider-Man isn't cool and edgy now that he has a wife and kid. Not to mention that apparently over the past 50 years comic book characters have yet to show signs of age.

The Ultimate series was a step in the right direction, but still has way too much camp for my tastes. So, I propose the following question: What would you do with the comic storyline in the following scenario?

1. The Marvel universe reboots to start in the year 2000. Most superheroes and supervillains debut in the year 2000. Spider-Man gets bitten by a radioactive spider, Bruce Banner is close to a breakthrough with his research on radiation, Tony Stark develops the Iron Man suit, Professor Charles Xavier opens his school for "gifted" students, someone resembling the Norse god Thor shows up on Earth, etc. all within the first year. How do the superheroes' lives differ in their crimefighting careers when they start at the turn of the millenium? How has aging affected the various Marvel characters over the past 10 years? How have they played a role in major events around the world? Have major events been drastically changed BECAUSE of the presence of a particular superhero/villain? Are there any other general changes you'd do to the Marvel storyline? Use as many Marvel characters as you like.

2. Same as above, but with DC characters. Clark Kent has just gotten a job as the Daily Planet at the same time Superman shows up in Metropolis doing various good samaritan deeds. The urban legend of a Batman springs up among the criminal underworld in Gotham. Diplomatic contact with the island of Amazons and Atlantis is made for the first time, etc.

3. Same as the first two, but Marvel and DC characters inhabit the same universe. DC-original cities like Metropolis and Gotham City are their own unique cities in our world (I think Gotham has been shown to be somewhere near on the east coast near New York and Metropolis somewhere on the west coast but I could be wrong.) How does the story change when both sets of superhumans go through their careers side by side? Do they all form the Avengers or Justice League or do a majority of them go their separate ways? How do LexCorp, Stark Industries, and Wayne Industries influence each other and how does the presence of both Iron Man and Batman figure into things? How do DC characters react to the concept of mutants? How do Marvel characters react to the Green Lantern process? How does DC's presence affect the Civil War storyline (if it even ever comes to that)?

EDIT: You can assume any necessary changes to history, like Captain America's presence in World War II, but the point is that most characters really get started and get public attention in the year 2000.

chiasaur11
2010-05-14, 10:47 PM
Why 2000?

It's far enough back that it isn't modern, but not really far enough back to start legacies and suchlike. Seems a bad point to start.

DiscipleofBob
2010-05-14, 11:44 PM
Why 2000?

It's far enough back that it isn't modern, but not really far enough back to start legacies and suchlike. Seems a bad point to start.

Seems like a perfect place to start to me, being the turn of the millenium and all.

Any farther back, and aging has to actually be taken into account.

The point is not to have a bunch of 50-60 year old superheroes and supervillains getting ready to retire.

Like I said, I'm of the personal opinion that rather than beating the dead horse that is current comics continuity, I'd rather there be a total restart every decade or so.

A lot can happen in a decade. I mean think of everything that's happened from 2000 until 2010. We have entire legacies of presidents that by definition are only 8 years long.

WitchSlayer
2010-05-15, 01:51 AM
DC has "mutants", in fact, most people in the DC Universe have a metagene, albeit inactive.

Otogi
2010-05-15, 01:56 AM
What's so Wrong with Continuity, History and Blasts from the Past?

Tirian
2010-05-15, 02:56 AM
DC has "mutants", in fact, most people in the DC Universe have a metagene, albeit inactive.

Do they still? I thought they retconned the metagene when they decided that everyone's power was based off some combination of the Speed Force and the Source Wall or some such nonsense. And I haven't been reading recently, but I'd be surprised if all superpowers now weren't incorporated into the spectrum of Lantern power. Every time they reboot the universe, you can assume that the universe's fundamental power source and the reason that all superheroes live on Earth has changed.

Closet_Skeleton
2010-05-15, 07:06 AM
The point is not to have a bunch of 50-60 year old superheroes and supervillains getting ready to retire.

Hey, the JSA can be awesome with the right writers*.

but then again, so in theory could Paste Pot Pete

comicshorse
2010-05-15, 07:32 AM
Posted by DiscipleofBob

Same as the first two, but Marvel and DC characters inhabit the same universe.

Lets see. There is no Iron Man as Tony Stark has put all his time and fortune into figuring out how to get himself onto Paradise Island.
Marvel's Martial Artist are all in hiding as Lady Shiva hunts them down to kill them in death duels
The X-Men have been arrested by the Green Lantern Corps for interfering in alien worlds ( not to mention destroying an inhabitated planet)
Reed Richards has figured out how to keep Bruce Banner's brain in contro, of the Hulk and they are working on some intersting projects
Nick Fury and Amanda Waller are engaged in a secret war to the death over which massive control freak gets to secretly run the world

As for the Civil War DC has I think already had that, as I remember the JSA was ordered by the HUAC to unmask in public and simply choose to retire.

Grumman
2010-05-15, 07:33 AM
We already had a 2000 reboot with Ultimate Marvel, which has already had its own 2009 reboot with the Ultimate Comics line last year. Killing off the 616 storyline won't help your goal, since good writers will just consider the old mistakes discanon, and bad writers will be happy to dredge up the remains of previous iterations no matter what you do (see Ultimates 3).

What your planned obselescence will do is kill off interest in the comics.

Areswargod139
2010-05-15, 07:33 AM
What's so Wrong with Continuity, History and Blasts from the Past?

To be frank, its when it becomes cumbersome, self-congratulatory, and assumes that the campy Silver Age was "awesome and totally not the thing that almost ruined the Batman character" (with my apologies to Adam West).

Again this criticism is mostly aimed at DC but a bit of Silver Age worship appears in Marvel as well, but most of their issues stem from editorial mismanagement.

Revlid
2010-05-15, 07:37 AM
The Ultimate Universe did this more-or-less perfectly for Marvel until Jeff Loeb got involved. I place the entirety of the failures of that line at his feet (except the convolution of X-Men, I guess, but I'll pin that on him anyway, just because).

So basically, take the Ultimate Universe, and cut out anything not written by Bendis, Ellis, or Millar. There. You're done.

Otogi
2010-05-15, 07:48 AM
To be frank, its when it becomes cumbersome, self-congratulatory, and assumes that the campy Silver Age was "awesome and totally not the thing that almost ruined the Batman character" (with my apologies to Adam West).

Again this criticism is mostly aimed at DC but a bit of Silver Age worship appears in Marvel as well, but most of their issues stem from editorial mismanagement.

Batman has a set character?

But anyway, I get that, I always thought continuity was great way of establishing a character as well as background for other stories (Grant Morrison sure has a talent with it, anyway).

Areswargod139
2010-05-15, 08:00 AM
Batman has a set character?


Yes. The one penned by creator Bill Fringer.

Jaros
2010-05-15, 08:08 AM
So basically, take the Ultimate Universe, and cut out anything not written by Bendis, Ellis, or Millar. There. You're done.

Seconded, but extend that to Brian K Vaughan's run on Ultimate X-Men too.

Soras Teva Gee
2010-05-15, 08:35 AM
People always complain about this as an issue of continuity but at the same time it should be noted that while one must make major allowance on artistry, that far less time has passed in comic universe then passes for us.

Counting backwards in-universe to what was published in the 60s for Marvel is only supposed to be around fifteen years or so tops. What was now awhile back they had the Thing celebrate his Bar Mitzvah, celebrating his transformation as essentially a new birth from which he has now aged. And the Fantastic Four are officially the start of the Marvel's meaninful continuity. Similarly you have where certain incidents take place be periodically updated by flashback. Tony Stark for example may have already been injured in hostilities resulting from the post-9/11 world, haven't check lately.

Nor are characters static over the long run. Clark Kent and Lois Lane are married. Spidey is and ever will be married plus had eventually advanced out of college and even was finally starting to get some respect pre-CW working for Tony Stark. Since the epic-Claremont run X-men has always been fluid with membership changing and coming back, there's been a long running decentralization of Xavier with Scott basically running things for the better part of a decade now.

While their are obvious issues with technology, politics, etc comics you can still make a claim that characters should not be getting old quite yet. DC helpfully only has to worry about anything since Final Crisis, while before that it was 52/IC, before that it was Zero Hour, and before that the granddaddy of them all with COIE. Everything before that is explicitly written on water as far as continuity goes. Thus everyone is entitled to still be active for maybe 10-15 years which you can fit everyone into starting in their early twenties, which works for most characters.

Marvel doesn't hit a cosmic reset button explicitly, but then again lets face it that doesn't make sense for them. Marvel's big name heroes are as a rule, way less powerful then DC's. Read JLA/Avengers (an awesome comic period) where all sides admit this, though Cap can beat Bats in fight and other such things. Though Wanda is still running around, I think that's an abject demonstration of why Marvel should not mess with the underpinnings of its own reality.

Which brings up another point. Reboots always sound great as a whole revitalize the characters thing, but honestly how many are working out that well? Ultimate was great and for several years I was thinking Marvel should let 616 evolve to being like MC2 with Ultimate retaining the flagship characters as we all know them. But it went off the rails and can be said to have started doing so I think as far back as the Ultimate FF's debut, and was definitely there by the second half of Ultimates 2 looking at things now. I basically consider the universe to have ended at this point. Really a shame, Kitty Pryde dating Peter Parker rocked all kinds of awesome. Even things entirely free of continuity have a way of rotting.

In continuity isn't necessarily better. Afterall how did Marvel choose to have Spidey get his secret identity back. And reboot the character back to being his good 'ol webslinging self. Yeah I'm not going to say it because that would be acknowledging it exists, which it doesn't.... LALALALA One Mo... What?! LALALA Not listening!!!

Anyways rebooting is a dangerous business, for every brilliant piece of work like John Byrne's Man of Steel that shucked off all the super-crap ridiculousness of the Silver Age, there's the dark side like Supergirl not being allowed to be Supes' cousin as is simple wholesome and what everyone thought she was anyways. The real solution is honestly to worry about this sort of stuff less.

Drakyn
2010-05-15, 08:55 AM
We already had a 2000 reboot with Ultimate Marvel, which has already had its own 2009 reboot with the Ultimate Comics line last year. Killing off the 616 storyline won't help your goal, since good writers will just consider the old mistakes discanon, and bad writers will be happy to dredge up the remains of previous iterations no matter what you do (see Ultimates 3).

What your planned obselescence will do is kill off interest in the comics.


The Ultimate Universe did this more-or-less perfectly for Marvel until Jeff Loeb got involved. I place the entirety of the failures of that line at his feet (except the convolution of X-Men, I guess, but I'll pin that on him anyway, just because).

So basically, take the Ultimate Universe, and cut out anything not written by Bendis, Ellis, or Millar. There. You're done.

I think this is really the issue with this and anything else involving comics. Someone gets something working reasonably well, then someone else strolls in and ***** it up so hard that it starts crowing when the sun rises. The only way an ongoing, never-ending comic would ever be able to remain consistently good would be to either enslave a good writer in a basement and force him to labour until he dies of old age, or simply steal his brain patterns and use them to reprogram every other writer that comes on after him.

Ravens_cry
2010-05-15, 09:08 AM
This is why I can't get into superhero comics, as much as I love the concept of superheroes.

I have read a few, at least in trade book form, my favourite having to be Batman: Child of Dreams, and some Ultimate Spiderman. Dark Knight Returns is worthy of it's place, though what it spawned is less then admirable. And you thought D&D hereos were heavily armed psychotic hobos. Dark Knight Strikes Back is Miller dreck at it's 'finest'.

Thrawn183
2010-05-15, 09:12 AM
I want to see total reboots every 30 years. Other than that, I want comic time and IRL time to be on the same level. I understand that a single story arc might not be able to fit into that, of course, but after a story arc finishes, the comic needs to jump ahead in time to catch back up.

I guess I could see a comic that actually has time pass faster than IRL working, if someone wanted to tell a story that took place of 100 years or something.

This way you neatly solve all the issues with how old characters are, and their development like families.

If you really wanted to, I could see 3 different timelines, each rebooting in a staggered 10 year rotation so that every decade you get a new way of keeping the comics relevant to current issues.

KnightDisciple
2010-05-15, 09:41 AM
Yes. The one penned by creator Bill Fringer.Wait, what? Who the heck is Bill Fringer?:smallconfused:

Batman was created by Bob Kane.

Soras Teva Gee
2010-05-15, 10:07 AM
I think this is really the issue with this and anything else involving comics. Someone gets something working reasonably well, then someone else strolls in and ***** it up so hard that it starts crowing when the sun rises. The only way an ongoing, never-ending comic would ever be able to remain consistently good would be to either enslave a good writer in a basement and force him to labour until he dies of old age, or simply steal his brain patterns and use them to reprogram every other writer that comes on after him.

Judging by Chris Claremont's recent work versus his epic 80s work which half of comics has tried to steal ever since... even this may not work.


This is why I can't get into superhero comics, as much as I love the concept of superheroes.

This makes me sigh every time I see it. Because its not true. This thread and every discussion like it ever has nothing to do with actually reading comics. IT DOES NOT MATTER.

At all. You do not need continuity or even to know a single thing about comics to start reading them. There are very few comics you really need backstory on to get the full enjoyment out of. Stick around for more then a few arcs and you will know all you need to for what's going on right now. There's not a single reader out there that didn't jump in at some point in the past and have no idea what's going on.

Pick up a comic and read a wiki entry on its characters as needed. The quality of comics is generally independent of anything else written about the characters. And if you need something from another comic the comic itself will give you the short version often enough. (Unless its Grant Morrison but I digress...)

If you've got some trades then look for others. They make great window shopping to find something you a like.

KnightDisciple
2010-05-15, 10:34 AM
Even better, Soras, there are a fair number of pretty much stand-alone graphic novels out these days. They require nothing more than basic knowledge of what's gone before. And they're typically at least decent.

Areswargod139
2010-05-15, 11:49 AM
Wait, what? Who the heck is Bill Fringer?:smallconfused:

Batman was created by Bob Kane.

You sir, have failed your Knowledge [Nerd Lore] check.

Bill Fringer...excuse me Finger was the ghost writer hired by Bob Kane to write the early Batman stories. Bob Kane legally owned the Batman character but it was Finger who wrote all that early formative stuff.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Finger)

I want to see total reboots every 30 years.
This is the DC model and I think it works pretty well. Marvel is using DC's old Silver Age Crapload O' Multiverses idea--one of the reasons DC did the Crisis on Infinite Earths was because the continuity and the multiverses got to be too much.

Oslecamo
2010-05-15, 12:05 PM
Read JLA/Avengers (an awesome comic period) where all sides admit this, though Cap can beat Bats in fight and other such things.

Of course he can! Bats insists on fighting clean while Cap is literally on steroids and drugs.

Wich is actualy used as explanation to some characters don't aging. Nick Fury is stated to be taking some special serum that basically makes him immortal. Wolverine's regen keeps him alive.

And then of course there's magic, with characters literally being rejuvenated by supernatural powers.



Though Wanda is still running around, I think that's an abject demonstration of why Marvel should not mess with the underpinnings of its own reality.

Well, there's that comic where Thanos achieves ultimate power only to discover the universe is literally breaking apart because of all the reality messing of people coming back to life over and over again.:smalltongue:



Which brings up another point. Reboots always sound great as a whole revitalize the characters thing, but honestly how many are working out that well? Ultimate was great and for several years I was thinking Marvel should let 616 evolve to being like MC2 with Ultimate retaining the flagship characters as we all know them. But it went off the rails and can be said to have started doing so I think as far back as the Ultimate FF's debut, and was definitely there by the second half of Ultimates 2 looking at things now. I basically consider the universe to have ended at this point. Really a shame, Kitty Pryde dating Peter Parker rocked all kinds of awesome. Even things entirely free of continuity have a way of rotting.


Agreed, ultimate started kinda ok but then it basically jumped out of the rails so hard it destroyed several universes.

Tirian
2010-05-15, 12:05 PM
Dark Knight Strikes Back is Miller dreck at it's 'finest'.

DKSB certainly tests the line of good taste and common sense, but it was only the starting line when it came to All Star Batman. Did Batman even have a catchphrase before then? If so, it has been utterly obliterated by "I'm the goddamn Batman."

Areswargod139
2010-05-15, 12:28 PM
Ya know, I don't really buy into the "DC is more powerful than Marvel" argument, because it doesn't look at things on a macro level, it just takes specific examples.

I would even go so far as to say the "average" Marvel adventurer is a big stronger than the "average" DC adventurer.

Let me explain. DC heroes often run in the extremes of power...either they ain't got squat for superpowers (the Batman family) or they have huge demigod-class powers (the Superman family). There are very few that I would describe as being "in the middle".

Marvel, on the other hand, has a lot of Middle ranked supers. Most of the X-Men/mutants, Spider-Man, many of the Avengers, etc. And on top of that Marvel has some high powered heroes, they're just not published a whole lot (because although they inhabit the Marvel U, they stink as literary characters. But they still count when considering the relative power of the setting). Captain Universe (http://marvel.wikia.com/Captain_Universe_%28Earth-616%29) the Sentry, Thor, and the Silver Surfer are all folks that could give the likes of Superman or Green Lantern a bloody nose...after ripping out their livers!:smallyuk:

Ravens_cry
2010-05-15, 12:34 PM
DKSB certainly tests the line of good taste and common sense, but it was only the starting line when it came to All Star Batman. Did Batman even have a catchphrase before then? If so, it has been utterly obliterated by "I'm the goddamn Batman."I thought the general agreement was that wasn't Batman, but a hobo named Crazy Steve.:smalltongue:

chiasaur11
2010-05-15, 12:45 PM
The Sentry?

Never heard of him. Or maybe her.

Maybe you meant "Sentinel" the comic about a kid and his giant robot. I hear it's good.

LALALALALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING!

Areswargod139
2010-05-15, 01:42 PM
The Sentry?

Never heard of him. Or maybe her.

Maybe you meant "Sentinel" the comic about a kid and his giant robot. I hear it's good.
[COLOR="White"]
LALALALALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING!

Crappy character or not, he still counts in this discussion since we're just counting power-heads. (http://marvel.wikia.com/Robert_Reynolds_%28Earth-616%29) :smallwink:

Soras Teva Gee
2010-05-15, 02:49 PM
Even better, Soras, there are a fair number of pretty much stand-alone graphic novels out these days. They require nothing more than basic knowledge of what's gone before. And they're typically at least decent.

While at some level writing for the trade is a bit corrosive to comics, there are definitely ones that make for fine reading all on their own. Even when they are still 'in-continuity' as it were and are just collecting issues. Pretty much everything Geoff Johns has done at DC the last few years comes to mind.

And then there's pure stand-alones. Kingdom Come to name one is practically be required reading for anyone reading comics today. Though that's my opinion as there are any number of good purely stand-alone stories out there.


Ya know, I don't really buy into the "DC is more powerful than Marvel" argument, because it doesn't look at things on a macro level, it just takes specific examples.

Oh its not untrue that the power levels become meaningless with the entire universe in play. Silver Surfer has pulled stuff equivalent to soloing the Big 7 of the Justice League. Doctor Strange should be the wizard who did it.

However as you more or less noted its the low and middle level powered folks that get the exposure. DC has the official Trinity of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman carrying their flag. Or even the Big 7 of the JLA as the basic meta-flagship. Marvel's biggest characters are Spider-man, Captain America, and Wolverine. Now at least Spidey and Cap I will bet against Bats any day of the week. Screw you Bat-godders. However not a one is up to the raw power Green Lantern or Supes packs. Now next on the list I'd put Thor, Hulk and Iron Man. Stark does better but isn't quite up there, Hulk maybe, and Thor currently with Odinforce no sweat. However none of them hold down as many books as Batman and Superman do all the time.

So while its not strictly true, in any sort of crossover the Marvel characters that will show up are going to be generally less powerful then the DC ones that will show up. Hence defacto its less powerful as both are equal at the macro scale. Since truly including everything reaches to God as both the Source/Presence and One Above All, I believe last seen by the FF in the form of Jack Kirby. As it should be.

Areswargod139
2010-05-15, 03:23 PM
Kingdom Come to name one is practically be required reading for anyone reading comics today. Though that's my opinion as there are any number of good purely stand-alone stories out there.
It created the--for lack of a better term--the Neo-silver Age movement with the writers, so I fault it a bit for that.




Oh its not untrue that the power levels become meaningless with the entire universe in play. Silver Surfer has pulled stuff equivalent to soloing the Big 7 of the Justice League. Doctor Strange should be the wizard who did it.

However as you more or less noted its the low and middle level powered folks that get the exposure. DC has the official Trinity of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman carrying their flag. Or even the Big 7 of the JLA as the basic meta-flagship. Marvel's biggest characters are Spider-man, Captain America, and Wolverine. Now at least Spidey and Cap I will bet against Bats any day of the week. Screw you Bat-godders. However not a one is up to the raw power Green Lantern or Supes packs. Now next on the list I'd put Thor, Hulk and Iron Man. Stark does better but isn't quite up there, Hulk maybe, and Thor currently with Odinforce no sweat. However none of them hold down as many books as Batman and Superman do all the time.

So while its not strictly true, in any sort of crossover the Marvel characters that will show up are going to be generally less powerful then the DC ones that will show up. Hence defacto its less powerful as both are equal at the macro scale. Since truly including everything reaches to God as both the Source/Presence and One Above All, I believe last seen by the FF in the form of Jack Kirby. As it should be.

Agreed, but as you noted, however, I was looking at things holistically to disprove a widely-held nerd misconception.:smallwink:

pita
2010-05-15, 04:14 PM
And then there's pure stand-alones. Kingdom Come to name one is practically be required reading for anyone reading comics today. Though that's my opinion as there are any number of good purely stand-alone stories out there.

Unrelated to anything here - I didn't like Kingdom Come. It was nice, and very very pretty, but I didn't really like it. Is it because I'm not very connected to the DCU?

KnightDisciple
2010-05-15, 04:22 PM
Unrelated to anything here - I didn't like Kingdom Come. It was nice, and very very pretty, but I didn't really like it. Is it because I'm not very connected to the DCU?That's a possibility. Or it might just be personal taste.

I'm with Soras, though. It's a great book. Especially the art. Gotta love Alex Ross.


It created the--for lack of a better term--the Neo-silver Age movement with the writers, so I fault it a bit for that.How do you mean, Mr. "I have more Nerd Lore than you"?:smallconfused:

Areswargod139
2010-05-15, 04:22 PM
Unrelated to anything here - I didn't like Kingdom Come. It was nice, and very very pretty, but I didn't really like it. Is it because I'm not very connected to the DCU?

I liked it, but was highly critical of it. Part of it is the anti-80's 90's comic era sentiments. Deconstruction is baaaaad.

At one point the protagonist praises Superman on how he is "inherently good". Wow. It reminded me how much Silver Age enthusiasts like to make Superman this holy figure instead of an alien with an allergic reaction. It removes any kind potential character growth and don't get me started on how it preached that old people are right about everything and youngsters are wrong and inherently violent. Patriarchal to a "T".

KnightDisciple
2010-05-15, 04:30 PM
I liked it, but was highly critical of it. Part of it is the anti-80's 90's comic era sentiments. Deconstruction is baaaaad.

At one point the protagonist praises Superman on how he is "inherently good". Wow. It reminded me how much Silver Age enthusiasts like to make Superman this holy figure instead of an alien with an allergic reaction. It removes any kind potential character growth and don't get me started on how it preached that old people are right about everything and youngsters are wrong and inherently violent. Patriarchal to a "T"....As opposed to the hyper-violent kill-them-all kids, amiright?:smallconfused:

I'm pretty sure the end message is that Superman and his generation made mistakes. But that the reactionary youth who ended up loving killing things were very much not the answer.

The whole idea behind Superman is that of Good Versus Evil. When has he not had the "Paragon of Truth, Justic, and the American Way" vibes (outside of Elseworlds), to at least some degree? Never. That's what makes him Superman. He's a force for GOOD. Not "good". Good. That's the point.

And kids are quite often wrong. And violent.

Areswargod139
2010-05-15, 04:51 PM
How do you mean, Mr. "I have more Nerd Lore than you"?
To paraphrase Jesus Christ, "It is you who say this, not I". I just made a DnD Bardic joke relating to comic books. No offense was intended.


...As opposed to the hyper-violent kill-them-all kids, amiright?:smallconfused:
It was this characterization that I didn't like; all the old people are awesome and the kids are all violent. Period. Some kids do join the old-timers eventually, but only when they acknowledge the all-rightness of the old-timers. Such a concept is very ageist.


I'm pretty sure the end message is that Superman and his generation made mistakes. But that the reactionary youth who ended up loving killing things were very much not the answer.
Nor am I arguing that. I'm against the youngsters being defined by reactionary killing sprees. But even on that note, the author's also annoyed me by having it being one of two choices: either let the Joker walk all over you and the justice system forever, or be a violent sociopath. There is no middle ground displayed in the story.

The whole idea behind Superman is that of Good Versus Evil. When has he not had the "Paragon of Truth, Justice, and the American Way" vibes (outside of Elseworlds), to at least some degree? Never. That's what makes him Superman. He's a force for GOOD. Not "good". Good. That's the point.
Well, at the beginning he was an embodiment of Roosevelt's New Deal. He once put a gangster in the path of the bullet he [the gangster] fired. Another time, in order to help a ghetto get government assistance (which they would only provide in case of a natural disaster) he went on a rampage wrecking the place to force the government's hand. The Superman you're talking about is a recent construction that took off around the 60's or so (Silver Age).
Other ages have portrayed Superman as a much more nuanced character, whether the aforementioned early days (Golden) or dealing with mortality (Bronze/Iron). It's only the Silver and Neo-Silver versions that have the Superman=Deity arguments (in both a moral and power-level way).


And kids are quite often wrong. And violent.
Lol, and old, patriarchal men are always more so.:smallamused:

DiscipleofBob
2010-05-15, 05:28 PM
So I check the forums today, see the thread I started yesterday has since gotten 3 pages of replies. "Oh wow,thread I can't wait to see what people have posted" I think to myself. I open the thread and what do I find?

A long, thoughtful discussion with many eloquent and informed responses, some even with citations, and virtually nothing to do with the original topic.

Seriously, this thread was derailed faster than a bullet train with Hulk on the tracks.

Yes, the Ultimate universe was a good attempt at the concept of a modern Marvel, but it's been derailed by certain writers since and still suffers from the same problem as other comics in its inability to acknowledge real world events. I understand why Marvel and D.C. are hesitant to write in how the presence of superheroes and demigods affects major events in history but that doesn't still doesn't sate my curiosity on what would happen with major wars, terrorist attacks, economic troubles, etc. if superhumans were around.

Kudos to those who actually managed to stay topic.

Well, here a few speculations to actually add to the topic which is now soaring among the clouds somewhere.

1. Themyscira, island of the Amazons, while known of in the past, has remained isolated from the modern world until recently where Greek and Turkish land disputes have both sides claiming the island as part of their territory. Themyscira claims independent sovereignty and sends starts sending ambassadors like Wonder Woman for the first time in history.

2. Two underwater nations claim to be Atlantis, one lead by Namor the other lead by Aquaman. Both nations are ready to go to war over whaling industries and offshore drilling, not to mention relations between the two underwater nations are estranged at best.

3. Iron Man's origin is largely similar to that of the recent movie. Batman and Iron Man's resources allow them to quickly discern each other's identities. After some initial distrust and hostilities, pretty soon Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne are buddies for the paparazzi while Iron Man and Batman frequently cooperate.

4. Wakanda becomes a 1st-world country and the leading power in Africa. Black Panther has his hands full dealing with civil war and genocide in other African countries, but by the end of the decade has most of it wrapped up, and Wakanda's resources are shared with the rest of the world, but mostly Africa, eliminating much of the hunger and poverty there.

5. Probably the most controversial on here, only one tower is destroyed in the 9-11 terrorist attack. As superheroes from around the world rush to the scene to help rescue survivors, there are numerous individuals with the capability to stop the second plane. The second tower is eventually turned into both a monument and the headquarters for the new JLA/Avengers.

6. Religious controversy explodes across the world with not only the sudden increase in non-Christian religions with the worship of Greek gods, Norse gods, etc. but in some cases people literally claiming to be said gods and being able to back up their claims.

7. Superhuman-intervention in the wars of the 21st century has turned taliban hate away from America and towards superhumans in general, refocusing their terrorist attacks on the superhuman community, especially with the growing mutant population and increased contact with aliens.

8. Much of the economic recession is prevented through pre-emptive investigations from independent detective work courtesy of individuals like Green Arrow and the Question. Stark and Wayne Industries both suffer financial losses and still manage to give charitable contributions to help alleviate economic troubles. Lex Luthor boasts record profits.

WitchSlayer
2010-05-15, 05:53 PM
I have to wonder, which secret agency would reign supreme, SHIELD or Checkmate? SHIELD is more well known, overall, but Checkmate is freakishly competent, and they have Michael "Anything you can do that's not your specialized field, I can do better" Holt aka Mr. Terrific.

Areswargod139
2010-05-15, 05:54 PM
So I check the forums today, see the thread I started yesterday has since gotten 3 pages of replies. "Oh wow,thread I can't wait to see what people have posted" I think to myself. I open the thread and what do I find?

A long, thoughtful discussion with many eloquent and informed responses, some even with citations, and virtually nothing to do with the original topic.

Seriously, this thread was derailed faster than a bullet train with Hulk on the tracks.



The continuity of this thread has become too convoluted. You must reboot!:smallamused:

Jerthanis
2010-05-15, 06:12 PM
It created the--for lack of a better term--the Neo-silver Age movement with the writers, so I fault it a bit for that.


To me, anything that could end the 90s antihero craze is good enough for me. They had Superman unloading at people with a machinegun at one point in 90s comics for goodness sake.


I liked it, but was highly critical of it. Part of it is the anti-80's 90's comic era sentiments. Deconstruction is baaaaad.

At one point the protagonist praises Superman on how he is "inherently good". Wow. It reminded me how much Silver Age enthusiasts like to make Superman this holy figure instead of an alien with an allergic reaction. It removes any kind potential character growth and don't get me started on how it preached that old people are right about everything and youngsters are wrong and inherently violent. Patriarchal to a "T".

Well, Deconstruction has its place, but once subverting the core ideals of the Superhero genre becomes a nearly universal trait, and every book strives to darken its world further, it ceases to be deconstruction and becomes the construction of something terrible.

If Superheroes don't respect things like human rights, evidence, and due process, then they strain the reader to avoid thinking of them as Villainous. While a villainous character can be sympathetic, it's extremely difficult to maintain sympathy over a long period of time.

Personally, if it were up to me, I'd just have heroes age with time and even die eventually. Not in realtime, but I'd put Spider-Man way into his 30s by now, and Reed Richards pushing retirement age. Make about 4 to 5 years result in one year passing in continuity and Superman has been active about 15 years. Even Batman would be around 40-45ish at this point, and won't be past the point of believability until 2070. If by that time we haven't been killed in the Robot uprisings and we aren't reading the far superior stories produced by the advanced Xaxnugal alien race about THEIR heroes, then we could talk about doing a setting reboot.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-15, 06:13 PM
The continuity of this thread has become too convoluted. You must reboot!:smallamused:

Quick, we need a volunteer to ink the standalone "One More Thread"...:smallsmile:

Areswargod139
2010-05-15, 06:35 PM
To me, anything that could end the 90s antihero craze is good enough for me. They had Superman unloading at people with a machinegun at one point in 90s comics for goodness sake.
Elseworld stuff doesn't count! It's the Las Vegas of comics!




Well, Deconstruction has its place, but once subverting the core ideals of the Superhero genre becomes a nearly universal trait, and every book strives to darken its world further, it ceases to be deconstruction and becomes the construction of something terrible.
And if that's what happened in the 80-90's you'd be right. Instead we had the epic work of Jim Lee, Magneto embracing his "ethical villain" persona, and Daredevil going from a poor-man's Spider-Man to being his own character. Ditto for Green Arrow. I know some people like to flash issues of X-Factor and claim the Iron Age was all of that stuff all the time but that's balderdash.
Deconstruction is a process by which a writer shows how a literary concept doesn't work when viewed realistically. Sometimes that means getting darker and edgier (Watchmen), but other-times it just means things get awesomer (the fleshing out of the Wolverine character into his modern form by Frank Miller comes to mind).


If Superheroes don't respect things like human rights, evidence, and due process, then they strain the reader to avoid thinking of them as Villainous. While a villainous character can be sympathetic, it's extremely difficult to maintain sympathy over a long period of time.
Again, Iron Age heroes didn't all do this: on the Marvel end of things only a few behaved this way: Ghost Rider, Punisher, and Venom. The rest just got better written (again, Jim Lee and Co.), while many became very human original creations that are much-beloved today (Booster Gold).:smallcool: I hasten to remind everyone that the great "British Invasion" that brought Grant Morrison and Alan Moore to American Comics was an Iron Age event.


Personally, if it were up to me, I'd just have heroes age with time and even die eventually. Not in realtime, but I'd put Spider-Man way into his 30s by now, and Reed Richards pushing retirement age. Make about 4 to 5 years result in one year passing in continuity and Superman has been active about 15 years. Even Batman would be around 40-45ish at this point, and won't be past the point of believability until 2070. If by that time we haven't been killed in the Robot uprisings and we aren't reading the far superior stories produced by the advanced Xaxnugal alien race about THEIR heroes, then we could talk about doing a setting reboot.

I thought Spider-Man was in his 30's? But yeah, I'd like to put a realish-time ting onto DC. Actually make Bruce pass that cowl onto poor **** who has been waiting so long (permanent-wise, I mean). Have Supes retire to let other heroes take over the mantle--an adult Captain Marvel, Supergirl, etc.

comicshorse
2010-05-15, 06:36 PM
Posted by WitchSlayer

I have to wonder, which secret agency would reign supreme, SHIELD or Checkmate?

Checkmate has Amanda Waller ( and so also Task Force X) they kick SHIELD's head in :smallsmile:

The Glyphstone
2010-05-15, 07:10 PM
Posted by WitchSlayer


Checkmate has Amanda Waller ( and so also Task Force X) they kick SHILED's head in :smallsmile:

Sammy J - er, Nick Fury my bad > Amanda Waller.:smallsmile:

DiscipleofBob
2010-05-15, 07:37 PM
Wouldn't SHIELD and Checkmate work in tandem rather well though?

Amanda Waller is more the black ops style, doing missions no one ought to know about. Nick Fury usually tends to either come up with defense solutions against the many superhuman threats of the world or work WITH said superhumans to invade Latveria or something.

My question what would happen if Namor's Atlantis and Aquaman's Atlantis went to war? With each other or with the other non-wet third of the planet?

comicshorse
2010-05-15, 08:11 PM
Posted by DiscipleofBob

Wouldn't SHIELD and Checkmate work in tandem rather well though?

Amanda Waller is more the black ops style, doing missions no one ought to know about. Nick Fury usually tends to either come up with defense solutions against the many superhuman threats of the world or work WITH said superhumans to invade Latveria or somethin

The Latveria thing ( Secret Wars 2, right ?) WAS a Black Op as it was a completely unauthorised assassination mission ( and confirmed to me that I loathe Nick Fury when Bendis writes him)/

While technically SHIELD and Checkmate should work together, Fury and Waller are such extreme personalities there is NO way they are going to co-operate. It would be war to the death, winner take all.


My question what would happen if Namor's Atlantis and Aquaman's Atlantis went to war? With each other or with the other non-wet third of the planet?


It would be war with each other. Namor and Aquaman would be a critical mass of arrogance. There is only room for one king of the Sea and neither could accept it isn't going to be them. I think Namor has the edge though


Wakanda becomes a 1st-world country and the leading power in Africa. Black Panther has his hands full dealing with civil war and genocide in other African countries, but by the end of the decade has most of it wrapped up, and Wakanda's resources are shared with the rest of the world, but mostly Africa, eliminating much of the hunger and poverty there.


What Wakanda actually use it's wealth and technology to do something apart from feather their own nest. Heresey !

chiasaur11
2010-05-15, 09:52 PM
Sammy J - er, Nick Fury my bad > Amanda Waller.:smallsmile:

Not so sure about that one.

I mean, either way, it's close.

But what else DC has?

Frank. Rock. He's the comics World War II veteran. He killed more Nazis than every FPS protagonist combined.

Hmm. One thing from the crossover?

Lex Luthor would feel a lot lower on the totem pole. I mean, Doom kicks him to the curb on style, and with both him and RICHARDS! going around being smarter, the grudge against Superman feels even pettier.

Tyrant
2010-05-15, 11:18 PM
Here's my attempt at rewriting Marvel and updating things.
I always thought a level of the camp was part of the appeal. Like most of the things connected with Doom (the cape, speaking in the third person, etc). I know it is for me at least.

Having said that, I think the current Marvel movies (Iron Man 1,2 and The Hulk) are shaping up to be an interesting starting point. They are starting to show the world changing due to the presence of Iron Man and the arc reactor (though how far they will take the changes is in question), but they also have SHIELD already in place and at least one tie to Captain America (the stuff they used to make Abomination) to show that there are already forces at work. I assume the intertwining of the franchises will only increase as time goes on. It's a shame that some of Marvel's properties are licensed out so they can't be included. Likewise, for some reason DC can't get their act together and create a cohesive movie universe even though they are owned by a movie studio.

As for what I would do, I'm not sure. For number 1, I would try to interconnect things as much as I could. I would have everyone have the X Gene and all super powers essentially be the activation of the X Gene. With mutants it would be something random that happens (usually as a result of one of their parents being exposed to something) and folks like the Hulk have it activated later in life. The things that activate the gene later in life could potentially be duplicated with similar results, while the mutant activation will yield random results. I've primarily read X titles, so I would include some of the backstory elements involving Apocalypse, Mr. Sinister, and the Hellfire Club. I would eliminate the time travel aspects (except for Kang going back to Egypt to help kick start things with Apocalypse). Basically, their collective machinations will help guide the world to the place it is in the year 2000. SHIELD will have been formed just after WWII to combat the organizations being built by Baron Zemo, Baron Von Strucker (HYDRA and AIM), and the rising Communist threat. Baron Blood will survive WWII and join up with one of these groups. The Red Skull will be alive and active all this time and in league with these groups. He will survive by transferring his mind from one clone body to another with the aid of Armin Zola. His clone bodies will be clones of Captain America (since he is the perfect human and the personification of the Red Skull’s ideals). Captain America will be frozen as he was in the regular continuity. Howard Stark will be one of the folks developing gadgets for SHIELD, possibly along with Xavier’s father. This will be where the two of them are exposed to something that passes on to their children. Tony Stark gets super intelligence and Xavier gets psychic abilities.

I would have Tony Stark, Reed Richards, Hank Pym, and Victor Von Doom all know each other from school. It will be a group project that blows up in Doom’s face. He will have some disagreement with Richards over his portion so he will hate Richards in particular but the group in general. Continuity will more or less go on as regular except these guys will have this connection in their background so it will make sense for them to still be friends when they gain their powers and collaborate. I would stick with the origins presented in Iron Man and the more recent Hulk movie for those two. The FF will be the same. I would tie Spider Man’s into someone else’s (perhaps the Hulk) so there’s a reason for a radioactive spider to be floating around. I would spell out that Banner had the Super Soldier Serum in him when the gamma accident occurs. The Abomination would be the result of the Russians using their copy (taken from a German lab at the end of WWII) of the serum to replicate the incident and it’s similar, but different. Xavier will have been training the first team of XMen for 5 years before the intro so they are somewhat ready at the start. Magneto will also have his brotherhood.

Things will start off similar, but they will start changing within just a couple of years. This will mainly be due to trying to model the comics on real world events and real human motivations. The Russians will militarize their super folk. Abomination, Colossus, the Black Widow, Omega Red, and divisions of Titanium Men and Crimson Dynamos will allow them to retake some of their “lost” provinces and begin to reforge the Soviet Union. They will also begin different types of experimentation to activate the XGene. Doom will use his legions of Doombots to seize control of neighboring countries and create a buffer between himself and the new Soviet Union. The Mandarin, using his alien technology and stolen bits and pieces of Soviet and US tech along with The Hand and some other super folks like Fin Fang Foom will take over China. He will either conquer or ally with Japan which will bring Sunfire, Silver Samurai, etc into the fold. They will take control of most of SE Asia and Mongolia (to keep some distance with the new Soviet Union). His empire will stretch to Iran and include parts of northern India. He will turn his attentions inward and begin experiments to create more super powered folks. The US will have no choice but to attempt to nationalize their super heroes as well. The recently thawed out Captain America will try to convince the mutants to join the cause. In this timeline the mutants won’t be nearly as hated and feared because people within the government will see how the other nations are using them in their militaries, possibly to the point that the Sentinels will be quickly retasked for military use instead of hunting mutants (though I suppose they may still end up hunting mutants, now that I think about it). Eventually a fair amount of Stark Tech will be integrated into them as well. Magneto will use all the international chaos to seize Genosha. England will initially rely on Excalibur but will eventually have to expand. The US will lend some aid in this respect. Baron Von Strucker (being kept young by his own copy of the Infinity Formula) and his mutant children, Baron (Helmut) Zemo (who will be a mutant) and a version of the Thunderbolts, Baron Blood and his vampires, and the Red Skull with his mutant children will take control of Germany. They will use their resources and organizations to seriously update Germany’s general technology level and allow them to stand against Doom. Due to several of them having mutant children and having to see the downfall of their old philosophy, they will have come to rethink their philosophy. They will still believe themselves to be superior and that they should rule, but it will be somewhat more inclusive.

With the overall advance in technology that will be occurring due to the various levels of the arms and technology race, oil’s value will plummet. This will destroy the economies of several nations. At some point, Apocalypse will arise in Egypt and use his technology and minions to conquer the northern half of Africa and most of the Middle East, along with chunks of southern Europe. This will put him on the borders of the new Soviet Union, the Mandarin's empire, the land of Doom, and Germany. Wakanda will be absorbed into his empire as well. His main lieutenants will be the Shadow King, the Living Monolith, Sabra, the Black Panther (who will be a mutant due to exposure to Vibranium), and Storm. Sinister will be his agent sowing chaos in the world by providing nations and groups with bits and pieces of his research to help their genetic programs along (for instance, the Super Soldier Serum will be the end result of some of his work that the US “finds”).

So, 10 years in the world will be locked in a global stalemate. It will be similar to WWI. Some nations will be superpowers while others will be third world at best. The arms and technology race will have caused the superpowers to leap forward beyond the 616 Marvel Earth. By fielding massive numbers of robots and power armored soldiers, the major powers will have tons and tons of data to refine their designs beyond their 616 counterparts. The world will be a powder keg just waiting for a spark. The various heroes and groups like SHIELD (and now their counterparts like HYDRA) will be working behind the scenes to make sure the whole thing doesn’t blow. I figure the thing that will set it off will either be an alien invasion, Apocalypse finally making his big push to bring about his evolutionary war, or possibly Ultron emerging from the shadows to merge with the advanced technology and try to wipe out the human race (or turn the humans against each other).

Overall it would probably make a better book than comic book because there can’t be tons of action after the battle lines get drawn since one major incident could set the entire world to war. That’s how I see the inevitable arms races that should result in the Marvel Universe playing out.

Piedmon_Sama
2010-05-15, 11:40 PM
I've always seen Scott Summers as mid-30's, so about 16 years in the past (1995-ish now) should be where X-Men #1 ought to be set.

I mean, I guess you could put Scott in his mid-20's but hell if that doesn't feel wrong. Of course, I came to this decision around 2003, thinking the X-Men got started around 1987-89ish. I'll miss the notion of Cyclops, Hank and Bobby being 80's kids.

Also mid-90's is pushing it to have Xavier be a viable age (he should have been late 40's/early 50's at the start) and a Vietnam vet (it was originally Korea, but it's been 'Nam since the 80's at least). I guess you could push him up to his 60s at the start, since he's had at least one cloned body and a bodily rejuvination on top of that.

chiasaur11
2010-05-16, 12:50 AM
Here's my attempt at rewriting Marvel and updating things.
I always thought a level of the camp was part of the appeal. Like most of the things connected with Doom (the cape, speaking in the third person, etc). I know it is for me at least.

Having said that, I think the current Marvel movies (Iron Man 1,2 and The Hulk) are shaping up to be an interesting starting point. They are starting to show the world changing due to the presence of Iron Man and the arc reactor (though how far they will take the changes is in question), but they also have SHIELD already in place and at least one tie to Captain America (the stuff they used to make Abomination) to show that there are already forces at work. I assume the intertwining of the franchises will only increase as time goes on. It's a shame that some of Marvel's properties are licensed out so they can't be included. Likewise, for some reason DC can't get their act together and create a cohesive movie universe even though they are owned by a movie studio.

As for what I would do, I'm not sure. For number 1, I would try to interconnect things as much as I could. I would have everyone have the X Gene and all super powers essentially be the activation of the X Gene. With mutants it would be something random that happens (usually as a result of one of their parents being exposed to something) and folks like the Hulk have it activated later in life. The things that activate the gene later in life could potentially be duplicated with similar results, while the mutant activation will yield random results. I've primarily read X titles, so I would include some of the backstory elements involving Apocalypse, Mr. Sinister, and the Hellfire Club. I would eliminate the time travel aspects (except for Kang going back to Egypt to help kick start things with Apocalypse). Basically, their collective machinations will help guide the world to the place it is in the year 2000. SHIELD will have been formed just after WWII to combat the organizations being built by Baron Zemo, Baron Von Strucker (HYDRA and AIM), and the rising Communist threat. Baron Blood will survive WWII and join up with one of these groups. The Red Skull will be alive and active all this time and in league with these groups. He will survive by transferring his mind from one clone body to another with the aid of Armin Zola. His clone bodies will be clones of Captain America (since he is the perfect human and the personification of the Red Skull’s ideals). Captain America will be frozen as he was in the regular continuity. Howard Stark will be one of the folks developing gadgets for SHIELD, possibly along with Xavier’s father. This will be where the two of them are exposed to something that passes on to their children. Tony Stark gets super intelligence and Xavier gets psychic abilities.

I would have Tony Stark, Reed Richards, Hank Pym, and Victor Von Doom all know each other from school. It will be a group project that blows up in Doom’s face. He will have some disagreement with Richards over his portion so he will hate Richards in particular but the group in general. Continuity will more or less go on as regular except these guys will have this connection in their background so it will make sense for them to still be friends when they gain their powers and collaborate. I would stick with the origins presented in Iron Man and the more recent Hulk movie for those two. The FF will be the same. I would tie Spider Man’s into someone else’s (perhaps the Hulk) so there’s a reason for a radioactive spider to be floating around. I would spell out that Banner had the Super Soldier Serum in him when the gamma accident occurs. The Abomination would be the result of the Russians using their copy (taken from a German lab at the end of WWII) of the serum to replicate the incident and it’s similar, but different. Xavier will have been training the first team of XMen for 5 years before the intro so they are somewhat ready at the start. Magneto will also have his brotherhood.

Things will start off similar, but they will start changing within just a couple of years. This will mainly be due to trying to model the comics on real world events and real human motivations. The Russians will militarize their super folk. Abomination, Colossus, the Black Widow, Omega Red, and divisions of Titanium Men and Crimson Dynamos will allow them to retake some of their “lost” provinces and begin to reforge the Soviet Union. They will also begin different types of experimentation to activate the XGene. Doom will use his legions of Doombots to seize control of neighboring countries and create a buffer between himself and the new Soviet Union. The Mandarin, using his alien technology and stolen bits and pieces of Soviet and US tech along with The Hand and some other super folks like Fin Fang Foom will take over China. He will either conquer or ally with Japan which will bring Sunfire, Silver Samurai, etc into the fold. They will take control of most of SE Asia and Mongolia (to keep some distance with the new Soviet Union). His empire will stretch to Iran and include parts of northern India. He will turn his attentions inward and begin experiments to create more super powered folks. The US will have no choice but to attempt to nationalize their super heroes as well. The recently thawed out Captain America will try to convince the mutants to join the cause. In this timeline the mutants won’t be nearly as hated and feared because people within the government will see how the other nations are using them in their militaries, possibly to the point that the Sentinels will be quickly retasked for military use instead of hunting mutants (though I suppose they may still end up hunting mutants, now that I think about it). Eventually a fair amount of Stark Tech will be integrated into them as well. Magneto will use all the international chaos to seize Genosha. England will initially rely on Excalibur but will eventually have to expand. The US will lend some aid in this respect. Baron Von Strucker (being kept young by his own copy of the Infinity Formula) and his mutant children, Baron (Helmut) Zemo (who will be a mutant) and a version of the Thunderbolts, Baron Blood and his vampires, and the Red Skull with his mutant children will take control of Germany. They will use their resources and organizations to seriously update Germany’s general technology level and allow them to stand against Doom. Due to several of them having mutant children and having to see the downfall of their old philosophy, they will have come to rethink their philosophy. They will still believe themselves to be superior and that they should rule, but it will be somewhat more inclusive.

With the overall advance in technology that will be occurring due to the various levels of the arms and technology race, oil’s value will plummet. This will destroy the economies of several nations. At some point, Apocalypse will arise in Egypt and use his technology and minions to conquer the northern half of Africa and most of the Middle East, along with chunks of southern Europe. This will put him on the borders of the new Soviet Union, the Mandarin's empire, the land of Doom, and Germany. Wakanda will be absorbed into his empire as well. His main lieutenants will be the Shadow King, the Living Monolith, Sabra, the Black Panther (who will be a mutant due to exposure to Vibranium), and Storm. Sinister will be his agent sowing chaos in the world by providing nations and groups with bits and pieces of his research to help their genetic programs along (for instance, the Super Soldier Serum will be the end result of some of his work that the US “finds”).

So, 10 years in the world will be locked in a global stalemate. It will be similar to WWI. Some nations will be superpowers while others will be third world at best. The arms and technology race will have caused the superpowers to leap forward beyond the 616 Marvel Earth. By fielding massive numbers of robots and power armored soldiers, the major powers will have tons and tons of data to refine their designs beyond their 616 counterparts. The world will be a powder keg just waiting for a spark. The various heroes and groups like SHIELD (and now their counterparts like HYDRA) will be working behind the scenes to make sure the whole thing doesn’t blow. I figure the thing that will set it off will either be an alien invasion, Apocalypse finally making his big push to bring about his evolutionary war, or possibly Ultron emerging from the shadows to merge with the advanced technology and try to wipe out the human race (or turn the humans against each other).

Overall it would probably make a better book than comic book because there can’t be tons of action after the battle lines get drawn since one major incident could set the entire world to war. That’s how I see the inevitable arms races that should result in the Marvel Universe playing out.

Alright. This made me think.

Because my vote?

None of that. Geesh, nothing makes a place feel too damn small like everyone going to college together, there only being real one source of weirdness, and nothing going on off in a corner quiet like. Also, bringing in Mr. Sinister and Apocalypse when you got a choice?

Not happening if I get a say. Personal preference and such.

So, I suppose I might as well give this a spin.

Okay, we start early forties. Professor Phineas Horton creates a miracle. Artificial life. A crude robot with real emotions, real thought. And the tiny problem of spontaneous combustion. Welcome to the age of marvels, and the beginning of humanity's first large scale contact in centuries with the sheer weirdness of the world.

It starts small enough. The robot goes road picture, tries to learn what it means to be human, accidentally incinerates a few criminals. Things shouldn't go further. They do.

Because, guess what? Hitler, Stalin, Hirohito? They see America has a superpowered crime fighter, they get antsy. And start stirring up hornets nests that should be left alone.

And everyone's scrambling for an edge.

Atlantis switches from occasional peaceful-ish contact with isolated mariners to full war footing after subs kill their emperor.

The Nazis kick up the Thule society.

Alien war robots show up in snappy business suits and start wrecking petty thug faces.

Interdimensional ghosts show up and scare everyone senseless.

Giant Nazi super robots.

Pretty much everywhere is messy. Of course, people try to keep a lid on mad science and the like on their own, the most skilled (IE, take more than a week to die horribly) of them becoming minor legends, but it isn't enough, even without declared war.

And, well, Hitler seems to be making progress. Relying on the good efforts of random vigilantes and killer robots with hearts of gold?

Not a good bet. Roosevelt authorizes the Super Soldier project.

The rest is history, America's superman, champion of the downtrodden, Steve Rogers. And a number of other things that didn't make the headlines. Stark becomes one of the most well respected defense contractors.

Well, it all starts blowing up by the end, fortunately mainly hitting the Nazis. When the Thule society summons Thor in an attempt at a last minute Hail Mary pass, it turns out he ain't exactly thrilled with the whole Nazi agenda. Things become a long series of explosions.

Captain America is missing, the Human Torch is put on ice due to reactor meltdown, most of the vigilantes and weird mutant things are dead, with the remainder retiring to obscurity.

And the free world makes an important decision. They do not want to deal with this again.

Nick Fury, Thomas Halloway, James Montgomery Falsworth... those normal (mostly) men and women best suited to dealing with the uncanny are recruited into a secret organization to keep the small scale weirdness from escalating.

And, mostly, it works. Mutants and recipients of fortunate accidents are encouraged to use their abilities quietly. Monsters are hidden or destroyed. At least one alien invasion is repelled quietly. And the soviets are kept from having their own full on superhuman army.

And it looked like the world was a little quieter place. And then?

Reed Richards happened. And "quiet" was no longer an option.



Ah, longer than I was counting on. Probably'll edit it to get to things, you know, starting soon, but for now, a break.

Soras Teva Gee
2010-05-16, 03:27 AM
Elseworld stuff doesn't count! It's the Las Vegas of comics!

There's a contradiction there when you've criticized another Elseworld... just saying.

I think Superman At World's End (or rather Linkara's free review of it, lets keep out of the habit of buying things so we can see how bad it is) aptly demonstrates everything wrong with the sort of comic as typifies the 90s mold. Not that there aren't good stories told in that era, including the seminal Superman one. However its also really obvious that comics really let themselves go.

To address earlier point, Kingdom Come does not oversimplify the moral issues involved. Magog even makes a fair point about what he did (first not last) that never really gets rebuked. Superman is more is arguably presented more in the right then anyone else, but its not like the short comings aren't brought up. In the end the real theme is rediscovering humanity for all parties, with the moral religious subtext being something to be stepped back from.

Also the Neo-Silver movement is generally a good thing in my book, though this varies of course. I honestly think my biggest complaint is the marginalizing of the Threeboot Legion, which was already Neo-Silver to begin with anyways so I can just make it one of my few criticisms of Geoff Johns instead.



Well, here a few speculations to actually add to the topic which is now soaring among the clouds somewhere.

*snip*

I'll give my digestion of each point by the numbers:

1. If its isolated how is it Cyprus which is do in large part to native ethnic divisions? Also its generally held that modernizing means downplaying magical elements or at least that they've been dormant, so perhaps the island has only recent reappear for whatever reason. Or that the Amazons are some sort of new movement... though that's getting to sound like Ultimate Thor which I think we all digested and while interesting didn't quite suit. So yeah recent reappearence.

2. Nah nah, play for Namor's age. He's well established as a longevity character. Have one Atlantis that he was formerly the ruler of round WWII then disappeared, for say Arthur's father to take charge. Lets say as a head as a nearly as noble house. Namor returns decades later and is predictably pissed that there is another house ruling. Now the Aquaman is faced with rival challenger but holds a narrow political advantage by virtue of not being a total prick.

3. I like this but I don't put much investigative work on Tony's part. In the larger scope it weakens the basic security concept, since Tony goes into and out of being a secret identity so much. If Stark can, why not others like Luthor? Course the two could always have had some adventure to hash it out. Basic interaction is gold. I might make Wayne the less wealthy of the two though, under the explanation that Stark replaces Lockheed Martin and thus is still a major DoD contractor while Wayne Enterprises is 'purer' as it were by not but also less profitable. Though both are still mindlessly rich. (Possible Iron Bat armor for special occasions)

4. Still sounds a bit Nation Sueish. Dramatically differing from the IRL world order runs some big risks should real life become dramatic in some way. Reasonably successful and hardworking, plus of course an advocate for Africa, but not enough to dramatically alter the continent. While a relatively big source of vibranium its not nessecarily the sole one and its not a make-Saudi-oil-an-afterthought level economy improving.

5. I believe there's a third-party comic series with its premise as a superhero stopping the second tower. In some ways it makes sense, while not so much for Marvel the idea of 9/11 happening in DC is very very dissonant with superheroes like Supes. I'm not sure how it was dealt with but it comes down to "heroes elsewhere.... um oops?" which lets face it Superman saves everyone and has catching planes is one of his shticks, this can't be entirely dealt with. Yet can that much drama be sucked out of the event and still meaningfully connect to the real world? No good resolution there to be had.:smalleek:

You could almost get away with thing happening after entirely, being a major pull for characters to get into superhero work. A couple more years and it would work

6. Comic has always avoided any moral guardian objections (well major objections I'm sure I can dig up some Evangelist newsletter on the matter) to gods with a small "g" by playing the classic mythologies as mere characters and not objects of real worship. The Kirby mold and approach isn't broken, though I'd say Thor's current run having the gods needing to be released from mortals is a very repeatable idea.

Oh classic pantheons and the New Gods? Thor meeting Orion equals what?

7. That's cool I like that.

8. Once you diverge from reality it becomes harder to come back. And economics is an especially risky area to try and 'fix' if you will. What seems "relevant" now can two years later seem knee-jerk reactionary. Without getting into politics too much, averting say Lehman Brothers or "Too Big to Fail" in America would create a directly dissonant reality with what's happened in Greece the past few weeks. And is still ongoing with potential consequences ranging from the merely local, to the collapse of the Euro, to I don't know if sovereign nations can't manage their debt.

Its not that you can't tell stories that reflect events but there are lines that need to be tread on carefully. Trying to "fix" the real world by proxy is one. It could be interesting to have say Tony Stark or Bruce Wayne be concerned about criticism of their pay given what they actually use it for which they can't exactly tell people, but its something that might even only be background discussion item while the threat of the arc is the main story and unrelated to macro-issues.

However while Luthor might come out far ahead do to backroom dealings and ingenious predictions, he'd make a point to conceal that and to exceed any charitable efforts by his not-evil counterparts. Heck he might even break even or (publicly) loose money because Luthor has never cared about being rich. With gritting of teeth on Tony and Bruce's part since they know, but have nothing that would stand in a court of law and would look vindicative themselves for trying. Who care about record profits when you've got influence to build, that's Luthor.

-One other thing-

SHIELD & Checkmate: These guys are war to the knife, institutionally speaking. Because Checkmate is one of the few organizations with any elements of opposing superheroes in DC while SHIELD in Marvel is one of the few that ever supports superheroes. Both in the same universe could get very nasty, but the conflict could a gold mine. If I had to pick a world set up I'd say SHIELD would be quasi-public as a Dep. of Homeland Security sort with the ostensible job of managing. While Checkmate would be much more secretive and of course having have the job of monitoring.

Areswargod139
2010-05-16, 09:12 AM
There's a contradiction there when you've criticized another Elseworld... just saying.
True, but Kingdom Come represents the beginning of the Neo-Silver Age movement, it was practically a manifesto for said movement, whereas the other bad story was just that--an isolated incident. Thusly, I reject your call of shenanigans good sir!:smalltongue:


I think Superman At World's End (or rather Linkara's free review of it, lets keep out of the habit of buying things so we can see how bad it is) aptly demonstrates everything wrong with the sort of comic as typifies the 90s mold. Not that there aren't good stories told in that era, including the seminal Superman one. However its also really obvious that comics really let themselves go.
That's just my problem, I don't think we should take isolated examples as criticism of a comic age. I find it fallacious and bandwagon thinking. If a person was of a mind to criticize the Iron Age, pick on Watchmen (another "manifesto" work of that particular age) or the story arc where Hal Jordan goes crazy (it was a major arc). Those were seminal works and major stories and in my mind are valid points of discussion, not isolated works.


To address earlier point, Kingdom Come does not oversimplify the moral issues involved. Magog even makes a fair point about what he did (first not last) that never really gets rebuked. Superman is more is arguably presented more in the right then anyone else, but its not like the short comings aren't brought up. In the end the real theme is rediscovering humanity for all parties, with the moral religious subtext being something to be stepped back from.
Yeah, the Superman=Jesus thing should be stepped back from, but its a major part of the Silver-Age--and therefore the Neo-Silver Age take on the character. That *is* the movie Superman, for Supes' sake!:smallbiggrin: And yeah, I find it insulting and dare I say, blasphemous to boot.

However, I think you should skim through Kingdom Come again, Magog tearfully reproaches Superman for letting him get away with anything, showing that instead of being the bright new generation, he is instead characterized as a child that needs big-daddy Superman to show him the way because again--the message of the book is that if you let those darn kids on their own, they will ruin everything. The new generation must not supplant the old one. There is no inheritance.

A lot of the stuff you point out would have made Kingdom Come better, but I'm afraid those were things that you interpreted, rather than things that were actually there--though, admittedly, somebody could lob that claim at me (but I will duck!).

This is a good topic and I want to continue it, without threadcrapping all over this poor fellow's thread anymore. I am forking! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8503388#post8503388)

Jerthanis
2010-05-16, 10:26 AM
And if that's what happened in the 80-90's you'd be right. Instead we had the epic work of Jim Lee, Magneto embracing his "ethical villain" persona, and Daredevil going from a poor-man's Spider-Man to being his own character. Ditto for Green Arrow. I know some people like to flash issues of X-Factor and claim the Iron Age was all of that stuff all the time but that's balderdash.

Yeah, it was better than it is thought it was, but there were serious issues with some plotlines. I sorta dipped my toes in comics for the first time with Maximum Carnage, and the entire story was, "Carnage kills people for half a year and they debate killing to stop him."

And while you might be right to say that the sprawling X-continuity was a misrepresentative sample, it was outselling everything at the time. (I didn't research this point, but it's my impression)



I thought Spider-Man was in his 30's? But yeah, I'd like to put a realish-time ting onto DC. Actually make Bruce pass that cowl onto poor **** who has been waiting so long (permanent-wise, I mean). Have Supes retire to let other heroes take over the mantle--an adult Captain Marvel, Supergirl, etc.

He was... then in Brand New Day he was doing an inner monologue and said something like, "What's a 20-something freelance reporter to do?", so OMD retconned his age as well. At least they didn't put him back in high school.

I also heard secondhand that at some point recently Batman said, "I can't lie to myself, I'm not going to be doing this forever... I'm in my 30s." as if he couldn't have easily begun his career for the first time in his 30s.

Areswargod139
2010-05-16, 10:43 AM
I forked this part of the discussion into a new thread!:smallcool: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152648)

Tyrant
2010-05-16, 05:19 PM
Alright. This made me think.

Because my vote?

None of that. Geesh, nothing makes a place feel too damn small like everyone going to college together, there only being real one source of weirdness, and nothing going on off in a corner quiet like. Also, bringing in Mr. Sinister and Apocalypse when you got a choice?

Not happening if I get a say. Personal preference and such.
Fair enough. Most of my Marvel reading was in the X titles and I actually like the two characters and their immense backstory so it seemed a waste to just toss it to the side when it could be worked in and it seemed to fit with the stalemate that I see being the end result. I see that being the result because the world doesn't work in an episodic fashion and multiple threats won't simply wait their turn in line. They will move once it looks like their enemies are too caught up in something else to react. This will allow other countries to make serious advances that rival nuclear weapons which will lead to a stalemate of some sort (or total destruction).

As for tying everyone together, to me it made sense. They all end up together and they were all super genius types, so if they were of a similar age it made sense that they could all be at the same school (best of the best and all that). Then they befriend each other at that age so it makes more sense for them to turn to each other after their assorted accidents grant them abilities because they know they can trust each other even if they have different outlooks (Stark looks to profit while Richards believes in a level of altruism being one example). Also, I liked the approach in the Venture Bros where basically everyone went to the same school at the same time and some of their rivalries spun out of that. I did ditch the idea of several of them getting their powers from the same accident that I was working on because it seemed a little too convenient. Basically, Peter Parker is touring a Stark facility when Bruce Banner has his Gamma "accident". He is turned into the Hulk. A spider is irradiated and bites Peter. Pym is working in a different part of the building with his particles, but the explosion causes a surge in the power grid (or something) and he is directly exposed to them along with a surge of energy which bond them to him. I couldn't figure a decent way for Tony to be there and have the explosion lodge shrapnel in his chest. That and having him build the armor in a cave witha box of scraps is pretty awesome. If I really wanted to stretch it I could throw in the source of the problem being the burst of cosmic rays that give the FF their powers managing to penetrate the atmosphere and hit either the Stark compound or the reactor powering it.

Optimystik
2010-05-16, 05:34 PM
The Ultimate Universe did this more-or-less perfectly for Marvel until Jeff Loeb got involved. I place the entirety of the failures of that line at his feet (except the convolution of X-Men, I guess, but I'll pin that on him anyway, just because).

So basically, take the Ultimate Universe, and cut out anything not written by Bendis, Ellis, or Millar. There. You're done.

This post sums up my position.

I was fully on board at the beginning of the Ultimate reboot - It was a wonderful time in comics history. Finally I (NOT being a comics aficionado) was on the same footing as my near-fanatical big brother.

Then gradually, they began incorporating callbacks... continuity nods... 'ultimatizing' even the ridiculous and jokey characters... a few of the ones that died early on started coming back, marking the beginning of "comic book death"... until finally, it ended up with a snarl almost as bad as the mainstream they'd just gotten away from. :smallfrown:

WitchSlayer
2010-05-17, 01:43 AM
I don't think 9/11 happened in DC, except a minor line in REBELS nonwithstanding, even if it did, it wouldn't be THAT big of a disaster compared to the others happening.

Revlid
2010-05-17, 05:27 AM
Do you know why Ultimate Spider-Man is among the most consistantly good long-running comics of this "era"? It's simple.

It has a good writer, with room to do what he wants, who has stayed with the title from beginning to N/A.
A great boon is also a consistant artist he works well with (be that Bagley or Immonen).

Other series sharing these traits include Transmetropolitan, Sandman, Watchmen, Agent X (discontuity aside), most good limited series, Cable & Deadpool, Blue Beetle, Secret Six, Invincible, Starman, Arana, Immortal Iron Fist, and (until recently) Runaways.

Marvel and DC: Make more series by this formula, I beg you. And smother Jeph Loeb whenever he tries to step out of his own personal sandbox. He doesn't play well with a communal universe.

There are many things I like about manga over western comics, and vice-versa, but this is one thing that cannot be contested in the former's favour - consistant writers and semi-consistant art.

Yulian
2010-05-18, 12:59 PM
Marvel already does this. They have what is termed a "sliding time scale". The FF went up in the rocket ten years before any current books, and the timeline slips slowly forward.

For example: Flash Thompson served in the military in Vietnam, originally. Currently, he lost his legs in the Gulf.

DC also has aged their characters to the point where there are now 5 distinct "generations" of heroes.

You have the JSA generation. The oldest, near-retirement. Jay Garrick, Wildcat, Alan Scott.
You have the Trinity generation, with the mortal members being mid to late 30s. Batman, Superman, Black Canary, Hal Jordan and pals, and Green Arrow.
You have their first group of proteges. Call this the Titans generation. They are not young enough to be the actual children of the previous generation, but more like younger siblings. They are old enough to have a few kids here and there. Mostly mid to late 20s. Nightwing, Cyborg, Donna Troy, Roy Harper, and so on.
You have the kids after them. Not sure what to term them, but they include the likes of Tim Drake, Cassie Sandsmark, Kon-El, and so on. Many of them are nearing the end of their teen years.
Then you have those slightly younger than them, like Damien Wayne and the new Speedy (Mia), the ones just starting out. They are just hitting their teens.

- Yulian

Jaros
2010-05-18, 02:22 PM
There's also a TVtropes page on the sliding comic book time thing, with a quote somewhere about how Batman has been protecting Gotham for around 10 years, and that he's always been protecting Gotham for around 10 years. And the various Crises probably retcon their age a little too

Soras Teva Gee
2010-05-18, 05:00 PM
I'm not sure if Final Crisis explicitly did so (though certainly could be a whipping boy for) but at most the DCU's meaningful continuity goes back to 52. Everything before that is subject to revision without any particular retcon. Or as I like to say, written on water.

Hal Jordan and Superman for example both have updated origins from Geoff Johns for continuity purposes. Hal merely to continue Blackest Night build up, and Supes because Geoff Johns has a fetish for the pre-Crisis Legion and wanted them and Superboy (Clark) back in continuity.