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Ichneumon
2010-05-15, 12:03 PM
Although I know all classes are relatively easy, and I myself have no difficulty understanding the rules, I'd like to know which class requires the least bookkeeping and has the most straightforward powers/class abilities. I'd like to know which of all the roles is the most easy to play (controller vs defender vs leader vs striker) and which class is the most easy to play of its role (e.g. rogue vs warlock vs sorcerer).

I am trying to make sample characters for a group of friends and they are new to it all and although I know there are no real difficult classes in 4e, I'd like to know how simple I can make it.

I was thinking the following:
Of all the roles, striker requires the less thought, you just attack, and there isn't much you can do wrong. Defender is more difficult and Controller might be the most difficult to do effectively.

I'd say sorcerer can be the most straightforward striker, but other than that, I don't have a clue.

Kurald Galain
2010-05-15, 12:14 PM
Ranger, hands down.

Of the roles, strikers are definitely easiest. Defenders and leaders are a shared second. Controllers are the least easy to play. However, this is not to say that playing a non-striker is hard or anything: if you make a group of just strikers, the result would quite possibly be very one-sided.

For strikers, rangers are so easy that I personally consider them boring. Every turn, you point at some enemy, he takes damage, and that's it. Barbarians are almost as easy, but have several situational bonuses to keep track of. Rogue is not much harder but a bit more versatile. Sorcerer is next, followed by warlock. Monk, I haven't seen in action enough to judge them by, but they appear to use clunky mechanics for no real reason.

demidracolich
2010-05-15, 01:53 PM
I second ranger, also twf style is the easiest of the fighting styles. Also is there any particular reason my favourite 4e class was not included in the strker list on above post? Hint: It starts with an a, and ends with ssassin.

Ichneumon
2010-05-15, 02:00 PM
I second ranger, also twf style is the easiest of the fighting styles. Also is there any particular reason my favourite 4e class was not included in the strker list on above post? Hint: It starts with an a, and ends with ssassin.

Really? I very much like the avenger, combined with the rerolling mechanism of for example deva or elves (and the racial feats that buff that) it can be quite fun.

demidracolich
2010-05-15, 02:44 PM
well, I guess the avenger is pretty simple too, pick one guy and hit him until he dies. Also, there is a dragon article on a hybrid assassin/avenger build. Some powers do radiant and necrotic damage, the most hilarious 4e damage since burnfrost damage.

Mark Hall
2010-05-15, 03:31 PM
Until I remembered about Pact Boons, I would've said Warlocks over Rangers. They may not be the most powerful, but they ARE easy.

Grynning
2010-05-15, 03:42 PM
I still say Barbarian is easier than Ranger.

As I've mentioned in several threads on this same topic, whenever I've seen a newbie play a Ranger, someone has to remind them to quarry every round. With a Barbarian, yeah, you might forget a bonus or two every now and then, but it doesn't matter, they still do plenty of damage. If you hand them a rageblood build, there's no fiddly two-weapon things to worry about either.

TL; DR:
Barbarian Instructions: Run towards things and hit them 'til they die.
Ranger Instructions: Place your "Hunter's Quarry" on something, then run towards it and hit it 'til it dies.

Fallbot
2010-05-15, 03:56 PM
Until I remembered about Pact Boons, I would've said Warlocks over Rangers. They may not be the most powerful, but they ARE easy.

We have a complete newbie running a warlock, and he still hasn't got the hang of his shadow walk after some six months of playing. Though that might say more about him than the relative difficulties of the classes, I think he would have been better off with something that just involved running at things with a sword.

+1 Ranger

Kurald Galain
2010-05-15, 04:06 PM
As I've mentioned in several threads on this same topic, whenever I've seen a newbie play a Ranger, someone has to remind them to quarry every round. With a Barbarian, yeah, you might forget a bonus or two every now and then, but it doesn't matter, they still do plenty of damage.
I don't see the difference: when you forget the quarry, that means precisely that you "forget a bonus or two every now and then, but it doesn't matter, they still do plenty of damage."

Archers would be easier than melee rangers or barbs, because you don't have to think about positioning either, and because you can completely ignore many status effects.

Meta
2010-05-16, 03:41 AM
Archer rangers are the easiest class to play hands down. The majority of their good utilities are designed to help them evade melee attackers and the rest is quarry, kill, move maybe, rinse and repeat. The warlock is not easy. Their at wills are far more complicated and a vestige warlock may require more bookkeeping than any other class. Also the avenger has one of the most difficult striker mechanics to operate properly, their censures.

Easiest to most difficult among strikers:

Ranger - twin strike is considered one of if not the best at-will and they have more multi attack than anyone
Barbarian - hard hitting and survivable. No subtlety here
Sorcerer - nerfed hard recently but still the best aoe striker
Rogue - getting CA isnt so difficult but requires more strategy than a ranger
Monk - focuses on lots of movement and attacking multiple targets
Assassin - shrouds are pretty simple and their movement mechanic is flavorful and effective. little support makes them subpar though
Avenger - the toughest striker defense wise imo though barbarian isnt far behind. also the most accurate and received recent buffs. Strategically rewarding but difficult-ish to use. A deva avenger who takes the newish deva epic destiny soul of the world is perhaps my dream build right now
Warlock - the most controller-ish of strikers and not that high on the damage totem pole. can be effective but takes work and frankly the best warlock build specializes on whats called 'arcane slashing' which is basically maximizing teleports and doing damage whenever they do so.

Kiero
2010-05-16, 09:10 AM
Rangers are the easiest, archery Ranger probably the most, but really dull. Whereas I found playing a melee Ranger quite fun, while remaining simple. Move and kill, instead of plunk from range.

Thajocoth
2010-05-16, 12:10 PM
Archer Ranger is the absolute easiest. Second to that's probably a Barbarian. Then a melee Ranger... Then an Assassin or Avenger.

What it comes down to is this:

What is there to remember? For an archer Ranger this is simply Prime Shot and Quarry.

Ranged has slightly easier rules than melee.

As you continue along to other classes, you get more and more to keep track of, and melee rules.

Meta
2010-05-16, 02:16 PM
Archer Ranger is the absolute easiest. Second to that's probably a Barbarian. Then a melee Ranger... Then an Assassin or Avenger.

What it comes down to is this:

What is there to remember? For an archer Ranger this is simply Prime Shot and Quarry.

Ranged has slightly easier rules than melee.

As you continue along to other classes, you get more and more to keep track of, and melee rules.

By that logic the ranged or semi-ranged strikers (warlock, sorcerer, rogue ranger) would be easier than the barbarian, assassin, and avenger. When really only the barb is simpler than rogue and sorc and the warlock (certain pacts) is probably the most difficult.

Swordgleam
2010-05-16, 05:11 PM
Since your party is probably going to need more than just strikers, I suggest we start making lists of the easiest ways to fill other roles.

I'd say clerics are the easiest leader to play, because if all else fails you can just heal and still be a decent leader. Warlords are harder because moving allies around requires understanding tactics. Bards mostly buff, but I'd say they're harder than clerics since some of their stuff is tactical.

Kaun
2010-05-16, 06:01 PM
This same topic seems to pop up in one form or another every 2 months.

As always ranged ranger.

demidracolich
2010-05-16, 06:05 PM
Sorcerer - nerfed hard recently but still the best aoe striker


I haven't really been paying attention to updates so how was the sorceror nerfed?

Kurald Galain
2010-05-16, 06:12 PM
I haven't really been paying attention to updates so how was the sorceror nerfed?

Primarily by being no longer able to utilize certain wizard feats (particularly Enlarge Spell) and rogue paragon paths (namely Daggermaster).

Cybren
2010-05-16, 06:43 PM
It's pretty obvious Ranger is the easiest class, as others have mentioned.

For the other roles, I would say that:

Defender- Fighter. Hit it really hard, which marks them. You get the easiest mark to lay down, and once it's there you can do some sick stuff with it. Nothing flashy, and you have to be in the fray to get the best use of your mark, but sometimes it's nice to just bash peoples skulls in.

Leader- I would say warlord. Any "tactical" decisions you have to make aren't usually that complex, and unlike cleric you only have one primary ability to work with and don't need to worry about implement bonuses. Hit it, or tell an ally to hit it. Either way it gets hit and your allies get some benefits.

Controller- Invoker. Unlike the wizard, with the spellbook, and the druid with wild shaping, your abilities are more direct, and you can lay down some hard, party friendly control. Some of your powers have drawbacks but that doesn't make playing the class or building a character harder.

Thajocoth
2010-05-16, 10:19 PM
By that logic the ranged or semi-ranged strikers (warlock, sorcerer, rogue ranger) would be easier than the barbarian, assassin, and avenger. When really only the barb is simpler than rogue and sorc and the warlock (certain pacts) is probably the most difficult.

Nope. More to remember (See the line previous to my melee/ranged comment)... Did I move at least 3 squares? What phase of my Sorcerer cycle am I in right now? Do I have CA? Hold up, I need to spend 5 minutes figuring out how to get CA...

The melee rules are only BARELY more than the ranged rules. The Barbarian has nothing to remember... At all. With anything you CAN take feats and stuff that GIVE you things to remember. I avoid those, personally. The ranged ranger has only quarry (and exceedingly rarely, Prime Shot), and if you have a good DM who lets you say "Oh, and I quarried him before that attack roll", then it's almost nothing.

Thrawn183
2010-05-16, 10:45 PM
The great thing about barbarians is that so long as you aren't using rage strike, you only use one daily per fight. Really you end up just spamming your at wills for hilarious effect.

Thajocoth
2010-05-16, 10:53 PM
The great thing about barbarians is that so long as you aren't using rage strike, you only use one daily per fight. Really you end up just spamming your at wills for hilarious effect.

I once DMed a campaign where I filled the room with undead and one cloaked figure in the back that was the same level as the players, and an elite... The Barbarian beat her in initiative, and on his first turn, in a single swing, brought her to precisely her negative bloodied value. Hilarious effect indeed.

Level was... 3 or 4... Minotaur, charging build, horned helm, Howling Strike, melee bonus wrist-gear, and a natural 20.

So what'd happened next? Swift Charge one of the undead. He simply bounced off her, splattering her against the wall, slamming into one of her minions like she was an afterthought.

Ironically, due to this act, the loot included "blood soaked Resplendent Gloves". Ironic as "Resplendent" implies that they are very clean. Something like this coincidentally happened to every piece of the Resplendent set I gave the group...

He was my favorite PC in that game.

Meta
2010-05-16, 11:39 PM
Nope. More to remember (See the line previous to my melee/ranged comment)... Did I move at least 3 squares? What phase of my Sorcerer cycle am I in right now? Do I have CA? Hold up, I need to spend 5 minutes figuring out how to get CA...

The melee rules are only BARELY more than the ranged rules. The Barbarian has nothing to remember... At all. With anything you CAN take feats and stuff that GIVE you things to remember. I avoid those, personally. The ranged ranger has only quarry (and exceedingly rarely, Prime Shot), and if you have a good DM who lets you say "Oh, and I quarried him before that attack roll", then it's almost nothing.

Yea that's more correct it was just confusing when you said ranged was easiest then listed one ranged build and 4 melee. bit counter-intuitive

Thajocoth
2010-05-16, 11:43 PM
Yea that's more correct it was just confusing when you said ranged was easiest then listed one ranged build and 4 melee. bit counter-intuitive

That wasn't what I said though...


Archer Ranger is the absolute easiest. Second to that's probably a Barbarian. Then a melee Ranger... Then an Assassin or Avenger.

What it comes down to is this:

What is there to remember? For an archer Ranger this is simply Prime Shot and Quarry.

Ranged has slightly easier rules than melee.

As you continue along to other classes, you get more and more to keep track of, and melee rules.

I've bolded and underlined both of the points I made in my original post. I said ranged has slightly easier rules, implying more that it breaks ties than anything else...

Meta
2010-05-17, 04:24 AM
Sorcerer's technically have the easiest to achieve striker mechanic as where avengers, rangers, rogues, monks, warlocks etc., have to trigger quarry, sneak attack, censure, and others, the sorcerer's is built in by adding 2 stats to damage mod. The only thing remotely difficult about sorcerers are those of the cosmic variety and their phases. Shame the class took some big nerf hits

Cogidubnus
2010-05-17, 09:22 AM
Warlocks are complicated because most of your powers will blind, slow, deafen, daze or SOMETHING whoever they hit. That's sometimes a little difficult for newbies to get their head around when picking powers as they level, or deciding which power's most appropriate. I'd agree ranger, but myself I find 4e CLASSES more work than 3.5e combat ones. It's all the powers (and healing surges). A lot of book-keeping. A 3.5e fighter, meanwhile, just keeps taking feats that sound good and actually have minimal effect every other level :smallbiggrin:

Lord Raziere
2010-05-17, 09:25 AM
Sorcerer's technically have the easiest to achieve striker mechanic as where avengers, rangers, rogues, monks, warlocks etc., have to trigger quarry, sneak attack, censure, and others, the sorcerer's is built in by adding 2 stats to damage mod. The only thing remotely difficult about sorcerers are those of the cosmic variety and their phases. Shame the class took some big nerf hits

huh!? when!? :smalleek: what nerfs?

demidracolich
2010-05-17, 10:03 AM
I said that above, check the reply to my post.

Mark Hall
2010-05-17, 01:31 PM
Warlock - the most controller-ish of strikers and not that high on the damage totem pole. can be effective but takes work and frankly the best warlock build specializes on whats called 'arcane slashing' which is basically maximizing teleports and doing damage whenever they do so.

See, I disagree that makes them "difficult". Least optimal, perhaps, but they're pretty simple. Curse, move three, smack. Curse, move three, smack. The order of these three is not important, just that you do them. Their difficult comes in when one of their cursed targets dies... and, even then, it's just remembering that something happens at that point.

Compare this to, say, an avenger, who is most optimal when he's only standing next to one target, and so has to worry a lot more about positioning. Or a barbarian, who has the "sacrifice dailies to do additional damage if you've already used another daily" mechanic. There's some sorcerers where you have different abilities depending on whether you've been bloodied or used a daily recently, and those change your abilities.


Avenger - the toughest striker defense wise imo though barbarian isnt far behind. also the most accurate and received recent buffs. Strategically rewarding but difficult-ish to use. A deva avenger who takes the newish deva epic destiny soul of the world is perhaps my dream build right now

Ooooh. I'm playing a deva avenger right now (though I always forget about my censure of retribution bonus), so I'll have to look into it.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-17, 01:43 PM
Rouge is probably the easiest class, it even comes with the makeup pre-applied.:smallbiggrin:

Kurald Galain
2010-05-17, 01:59 PM
See, I disagree that makes them "difficult". Least optimal, perhaps, but they're pretty simple. Curse, move three, smack. Curse, move three, smack. The order of these three is not important, just that you do them.
One reason I feel warlocks are "difficult" (or perceived as such) is that they don't do what people expect them to: the class says "striker", but someone who expects a warlock to do more-or-less equal damage to the ranger, rogue, or barbarian will likely be disappointed. So a novice player who is using a warlock may well get the impression that he's Doing It Wrong even when he's not.

(and also - you need to remember when your pact boon triggers, and the "hit me" strategy for infernalocks is not exactly intuitive).


Rouge is probably the easiest class, it even comes with the makeup pre-applied.:smallbiggrin:
Wearing lots of rouge isn't very classy, though.

Meta
2010-05-17, 07:23 PM
The warlock is challenging in a few ways. First they have very little choice in at-wills, and it's usually dependent on their pact boon. Said at wills are usually a little more tricky to get the most out of them, hellish rebuke for instance. Also shadow walk and prime shot don't really synergize at all, unless you're darting around foes at close range, and that's not really ideal.

Plus as another poster said, theyre more controller than most strikers and that may be the most difficult role to play

Also dragon 385 is the soul of the world epic destiny and is commonly considered one of the best available period. Also very flavorful for a good aligned deva. Great all around