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Ryu_Bonkosi
2010-05-15, 12:28 PM
A friend of mine is having trouble with his character build. He wants to be a Half-elf that can wield 2 bastard swords. He is starting as a ranger so as to get the Two-weapon fighting feats for free. He also wants to take the 'Shadow Dancer' Prc for the shadow jump ability. Me not being good with Two-Weapon fighting builds, but still wanting to help him, came here.

The DM would like each of us to have character builds up to level 20 so as to avoid complication in later stages of the campaign.

The party has a:
Wizard
Cleric
Swashbuckler
Paladin
Barbarian
and he is the other close combat person

All source books are allowed but the DM might say no to cerian things (So far no psionics, and no book of nine swords)

If anyone could help it would be greatly appreciated.

Greenish
2010-05-15, 12:36 PM
First, tell him that Longsword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword) is the same thing as Bastard Sword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastard_sword#Bastard_swords). That saves you a feat. My opti-fu isn't strong enough to save that build though, especially when ToB is disallowed.

gorfnab
2010-05-15, 12:58 PM
Swift Hunter (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0)

Pluto
2010-05-15, 01:04 PM
:smalleek:
Are you sure he's not just giving you a hard time? This is perhaps the worst setup possible in Core.
(At least Monk has enough feat slots to become a one-trick pony.)

edit:
Can you use Unapproachable East? It's setting-specific and 3.0, but the Teflammar Shadowlord has Shadow Pounce, which could let this concept almost work. Add some sneak attack dice, a pair of wand chambers and this could make for a decent character.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-15, 01:18 PM
(So far no psionics, and no book of nine swords)

:smallsigh:

Ryu_Bonkosi
2010-05-15, 01:18 PM
He can be perticular about what he wants to do, but the build doesn't need to have Shadow Dancer. A Two-Weapon fighting build would work just as well. (That is from me not him)

Hawk7915
2010-05-15, 01:40 PM
Swift Hunter will do it. Hopefully that's kosher with your DM...here's a build.

Stat priority: STR > CON > DEX > WIS > INT > CHA

1: Ranger 1 (Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Bastard Sword, Track)
2: Ranger 2 (Feat: Two-weapon Fighting)
3: Ranger 3 (Feat: Oversized Two-weapon Fighting, Endurance)
4: Scout 1
5: Scout 2
6: Scout 3 (Feat: Swift Hunter)
7: Cleric 1 (Feat: Travel Devotion)
8: Scout 4 (Feat: Dodge)
9: Ranger 4 (Feat: Mobility)
10: Ranger 5
11: Ranger 6 (Feat: Improved Two-weapon Fighting)
12: Ranger 7 (Feat: Darkstalker)
13: Ranger 8
14: Ranger 9
15: Ranger 10 (Feat: Combat Reflexes)
16: Ranger 11 (Feat: Greater Two-weapon Fighting)
17: Shadowdancer 1
18: Shadowdancer 2 (Feat: Improved Skirmish)
19: Shadowdancer 3
20: Shadowdancer 4

It's not a "good" build; those Shadowdancer levels are a total waste of time but he wanted them. However, he can move + full attack in every encounter thanks to the cleric level + travel domain, he gets 7 attacks per round at level 20 (9, if hasted), he gets good damage while moving and/or fighting his favored enemy, he has some minor spellcasting that can let him self-buff and heal off of a wand, and he's plenty sneaky (HiPS + Darkstalker + max hide/move silently ranks). If the rest of the party optimizes even half to this level he'll still feel somewhat useless but at least he can contribute and gets to roll a ton of dice each turn.

Ryu_Bonkosi
2010-05-16, 11:05 AM
Ok, lets say we forgo the Shadow Dancer levels, what would be a good Two-weapon fighting build with the Bastard Swords?

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-16, 11:22 AM
Only problem with that build is... Multiclassing Penalties.

I realize many of you don't use them, but many DMs still do.

Cleric isn't required to get Travel Devotion... just required to use it more than once per day. :smallmad:

There's a PrC called Tempest in Complete Warrior, specifically created for TWF.

Draz74
2010-05-16, 01:22 PM
There's a PrC complete waste of time called Tempest in Complete Warrior, specifically created for TWF.

Fixed that for you.

Hawk7915
2010-05-16, 01:35 PM
Dervish (Complete Warrior) is okay, but the prereqs are steep. Honestly, I think Ranger/Scout swift hunter is the best option if you must TWF with bastard swords (literally any other set up in the game is better...well, TWF is better than Sword + Board, but just barely). A level in cleric (for multiple uses of Travel Devotion) or Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian (for pounce) is a huge boon, but you can survive without those I suppose, if the multiclass XP penalty is in effect. Rogue/Shadowdancer is a better TWF character actually, since sneak attack dice are awesome in a full attack. And your party could use a skillmonkey.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-05-16, 01:49 PM
Dervish Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870778/The_Dervish_Handbook)

Might want to look into some of the builds at the end.

Ryu_Bonkosi
2010-05-16, 04:41 PM
Ok how do these builds look

Build 1
1. Variant Ranger Feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword
2. Variant Ranger
3. Variant Ranger Feat: Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting
4. Variant Ranger
5. Variant Ranger
6. Variant Ranger Feat: Dodge
7. Scout
8. Scout
9. Scout Feat: Mobility
10. Scout Bonus Feat: Spring Attack
11. Tempest
12. Tempest Feat: Swift Hunter
13. Tempest
14. Tempest
15. Tempest Feat: Improved Skirmish
16. Variant Ranger
17. Variant Ranger
18. Variant Ranger Feat: Two-Weapon Rend
19. Variant Ranger
20. Variant Ranger

Build 2

1. Variant Ranger Feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword
2. Variant Ranger
3. Variant Ranger Feat: Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting
4. Variant Ranger
5. Variant Ranger
6. Variant Ranger Feat: Dodge
7. Fighter Bonus Feat: Weapon Focus Bastard Sword
8. Fighter Bonus Feat: Combat Expertise
9. ? Feat: Mobility
10. ?
11. Dervish
12. Dervish Feat: Two Weapon Rend
13. Dervish
14. Dervish
15. Dervish Feat: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
16. Dervish
17. Dervish
18. Dervish Feat: Two-Weapon Defense
19. Dervish
20. Dervish

Variant Ranger from Complete Warrior

Hawk7915
2010-05-16, 07:29 PM
I'd say a mix of the two builds is in order: Ranger 6/Scout 4/Dervish 10 using Swift Hunter. You can still mostly dump Dex (you need a 13, or 15 to take Two-weapon Rend) and pump strength. You don't get to take GTWF without a huge dex that will be a waste, but 6 attacks per round at max level (doubled to 12, once per day) is still pretty impressive.

The big thing with TWF, especially in a party like this one, is that if he can't get his full attack in, he is just way worse than everyone else, and even with his full attack, he is going to be behind the barbarian in terms of accuracy and damage even with his extra attacks per round. Using Swift Hunter remedies this by adding precision damage (Skirmish dice) to all his attacks, and Dervish remedies this by allowing him to "Dervish Dance", gaining a full attack + the ability to move away while TWF. He can also be a decent "tank": he has above-average saves for a front-liner, and has monster AC if he uses the Dervish Parry + Combat Expertise, + armor from Dodge and Skirmish, which makes up for his smaller health bar (as compared to the Barbarian).

So Dervish is almost a necessity, and if he can't have it, then having some way to move and full attack (Travel Devotion, Pounce, Belt of Battle) is going to be required.

MalinGenie
2010-05-16, 10:07 PM
The problem isn't what your player wants to do, it's the way the 3.5 rules are set up to make 2H weapons flat-out superior to DW (or sword/shield). IIRC this was a reaction to the later stages of 2ed where dual-wield was ridiculously superior to 2H or S/S.

IMHO your best option is to House Rule Feats (e.g. Feat to allow an attack with both your weapons as a Standard Action +/- drawbacks/penalties if you think they're needed), or introduce some of the Pathfinder Feats (Double Slice and Double Rend spring to mind although they don't really address the 'move + attack /2H >> move + attack /DW' question;)

On the other hand class abilities/feats/items that allow Move + Full Attack should be discouraged IMO.

Bottom line, DW should be 'as good as' fighting with a 2Her; in fact probably slightly better given that you need to spend 1 Feat / 5 BAB just to have it keep pace.

If you are worried about dual-wielding flanking rogues you can always House Rule (we played around with "Precision damage e.g. Sneak Attack only applies to the Main Hand weapon" but ended up dropping it, the 'Sneak Attack DW Rogue of Death' didn't end up being unbalanced in practice, although we were concerned on paper.)

ninjaneer003
2010-05-17, 02:13 AM
If he wants to go full ranger with dual bastard swords all he needs to do is go with the two weapon specialization and use the feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Bastard Sword) and Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (in Complete Adventurer. Prerequisites: strength 13, two weapon fighting) could probably have it all by 3rd lvl

Greenish
2010-05-17, 02:37 AM
well, TWF is better than Sword + BoardYou can TWF with sword + board, and there are pretty awesome combos for shield fighters if you have enough splatbooks.

On the other hand class abilities/feats/items that allow Move + Full Attack should be discouraged IMO.I think they should be encouraged, or full attack even made a standard action. The lack of mobility just sucks for melee.

Cogidubnus
2010-05-17, 05:33 AM
First, tell him that Longsword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword) is the same thing as Bastard Sword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastard_sword#Bastard_swords). That saves you a feat. My opti-fu isn't strong enough to save that build though, especially when ToB is disallowed.

Not strictly true, in real life OR dnd. But close enough as to make few odds in terms of looking cool.

Greenish
2010-05-17, 05:40 AM
Not strictly true, in real life OR dnd.Well, in D&D longsword is strictly superior due not needing a feat. In real life, well, the dragon you're fighting doesn't care about your terminology. :smalltongue:

Da Beast
2010-05-17, 07:37 AM
Try to talk him out of the bastard sword. EWP: Bastard sword (or dwarven war axe, for that matter) is a terribly feat. It gives you an average of 1 more point of damage per hit. Then if you want to duel wield them without a massive penalty to hit, you'll also need over sized two weapon fighting. That's two feats to accomplish not very much. Also, stay away from Tempest. Terrible PrC.