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CelestialStick
2006-06-01, 11:11 AM
Updated:2006-05-31 18:48:53
Batwoman Is Back as a Lesbian
By LARRY McSHANE
AP
AP/DC Comics
"We wanted to make her a more unique personality than others in the Bat-family," explained a VP at DC Comics on Batwoman's new direction.

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NEW YORK (May 31) - Years after she first emerged from the Batcave, Batwoman is coming out of the closet. DC Comics is resurrecting the classic comic book character as a lesbian, unveiling the new Batwoman in July as part of an ongoing weekly series that began this year.

The 5-foot-10 superhero comes with flowing red hair, knee-high red boots with spiked heels, and a form-fitting black outfit.

"We decided to give her a different point of view," explained Dan DiDio, vice president and executive editor at DC. "We wanted to make her a more unique personality than others in the Bat-family. That's one of the reasons we went in this direction."

The original Batwoman was started in 1956, and killed off in 1979. The new character will share the same name as her original alter ego, Kathy Kane. And the new Batwoman arrives with ties to others in the Gotham City world.

"She's a socialite from Gotham high society," DiDio said. "She has some past connection with Bruce Wayne. And she's also had a past love affair with one of our lead characters, Renee Montoya."

Montoya, in the "52" comic book series, is a former police detective. Wayne, of course, is Batman's true identity - but he has disappeared, along with Superman and Wonder Woman, leaving Gotham a more dangerous place.

The "52" series is a collaboration of four acclaimed writers, with one episode per week for one year. The comics will introduce other diverse characters as the story plays out.

"This is not just about having a gay character," DiDio said. "We're trying for overall diversity in the DC universe. We have strong African-American, Hispanic and Asian characters. We're trying to get a better cross-section of our readership and the world."

The outing of Batwoman created a furor of opinions on Web sites devoted to DC Comics. Opinions ranged from outrage to approval. Others took a more tongue-in-cheek approach to the announcement.

"Wouldn't ugly people as heroes be more groundbreaking?" asked one poster. "You know, 200-pound woman, man with horseshoe hair loss pattern, people with cold sores, etc.?"

DiDio asked that people wait until the new Batwoman's appearance in the series before they pass judgment.

"You know what? Judge us by the story and character we create," he said. "We are confident that we are telling a great story with a strong, complex character."

DiDio spent most of the morning fielding phone calls from media intrigued by the Batwoman reinvention.

"It's kind of weird," he said. "We had a feeling it would attract some attention, but we're a little surprised it did this much."

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.
2006-05-31 17:07:13

Wukei
2006-06-01, 11:16 AM
So..you can't be a tough woman crime fighter unless you're...nevermind, I don't mind gay people, I just hate that they ruined my favourite superhero's comic.

CelestialStick
2006-06-01, 11:33 AM
So..you can't be a tough woman crime fighter unless you're...nevermind, I don't mind gay people, I just hate that they ruined my favourite superhero's comic.

So you're not thrilled that DC has become PC? ;)

KayJay
2006-06-01, 11:35 AM
I dunno... "Batwoman" just hasn't got the same ring to it as "Batgirl"...

Wukei
2006-06-01, 11:36 AM
If you want a lesbian character, create a new character, know what I mean?

Didn't she have a thing going with **** Grayson for a while?

Alchemistmerlin
2006-06-01, 11:42 AM
If you want a lesbian character, create a new character, know what I mean?

Didn't she have a thing going with **** Grayson for a while?


It's a comic book...

Retconning is a retcon's retcon.

Haggis_McCrablice
2006-06-01, 11:44 AM
All well and good, I suppose, although I sort of wish they hadn't used the phase "tongue-in-cheek" in a story about a gay character.... :-[

Alchemistmerlin
2006-06-01, 11:45 AM
Bah Batwoman x Supergirl will NEVER be as good as Harley Quinn x Ivy

dragonseth
2006-06-01, 11:50 AM
Bah! My personal irrational hatred of PC is kicking in. Let's just hope this doesn't somehow ruin the comic. Odds are, it won't, but you never know.

Bluelantern
2006-06-01, 11:51 AM
THe funny thing is that the original Batwoman was created to avoid gay rumors about the batman ;D

CelestialStick
2006-06-01, 12:30 PM
THe funny thing is that the original Batwoman was created to avoid gay rumors about the batman ;D
LOL!

Alchemistmerlin
2006-06-01, 12:49 PM
Batgirl?
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/8699/11469238140247yf.jpg

Did someone say "Gay rumors about Batman"?

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/8925/smartbombstudiosjustice4sk.jpg
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/3255/thelieswetellourselves3er.jpg

Sorry for the Not Safe for 56k but these were to priceless to pass up.

CelestialStick
2006-06-01, 12:55 PM
Is this supposed to be the Batwoman? It looks more like Batgirl to me.

Alchemistmerlin
2006-06-01, 12:56 PM
Is this supposed to be the Batwoman? It looks more like Batgirl to me.


It is Batgirl. Still...

ed
2006-06-01, 01:24 PM
why would this ruin a character? *i'm seeing a lot of hysteria and wrongheaded PC whipping but not a whole lot of reason.

me, i think it's cool. but then again, i'm in touch w/ my inner pig. :>

ed

CelestialStick
2006-06-01, 01:35 PM
why would this ruin a character? i'm seeing a lot of hysteria and wrongheaded PC whipping but not a whole lot of reason.

me, i think it's cool. but then again, i'm in touch w/ my inner pig. :>

ed
Yeah, I mean, what's wrong with changing a character solely to fit the lastest trendy ideology? I mean, comic books are supposed to teach conformity, right?

Jibar
2006-06-01, 01:36 PM
If you want a lesbian character, create a new character, know what I mean?

Didn't she have a thing going with **** Grayson for a while?

It's a new batgirl/woman

Personally, my thought is; meh. So she's a lesbien, so what? It's still a batman comic, it's still a bat character. S'all groovy with me as long as they don't try to appeal overly to the male audience through the character.

ed
2006-06-01, 01:46 PM
stick: i'm sorry, i wasn't aware that sexual orientation was merely a trendy ideology.

ed

Alchemistmerlin
2006-06-01, 02:01 PM
Yeah, I mean, what's wrong with changing a character solely to fit the lastest trendy ideology? I mean, comic books are supposed to teach conformity, right?
A) Changing what character? It's a DIFFERENT character. Many people have worn the various batcowls, Batman goes through sidekicks and spinoffs like Joker goes through laughing gas.

B) 1. Because it pisses off the loony right wing (And that's ALWAYS a good thing)
2. Because it sells and *GASP* We're in a capatalist society, and the comic book industry is just that, an industry.


And to everyone whining "PC this and PC that"

It's not PC at ALL. Males between the ages of 14 and 60 (Specifically 18 and 25, the target audience for comic books) tend to think lesbians are HOT. As such they're playing off of that. It's exploitation rather than Political correctness. It's the same reason there's so much boobage in comic books, it's the target audience.

Holy_Knight
2006-06-01, 02:29 PM
I guess there's two things about this this kind of bug me. First is that I'm skeptical about adding another character to the Batman team in the first place. We've already got (besides Batman himself) Nightwing, Robin, Batgirl, Oracle, Azrael, Gordon (though he's retired now), various other police officers, and sometimes others like Huntress and Black Canary. We don't need Batwoman. Second, the whole lesbian thing seems more like a marketing gimmick than honest character develolpment. It's one thing to develop a character and have it be revealed she's a lesbian, but it's another to make a big announcement where that's seemingly the main reason for the character's existence. Finally, here's a quick question for those who may be more up on your comics than I am at the moment--has there been past indication of Montoya being a lesbian? Or is that being retconned?

Ing
2006-06-01, 02:59 PM
no that's not daring

what would be daring would be to finally just roll with the insanity that is RObin and retcon so that it (relationship between OLD LEGAL AGE **** GRACON ROBIN...not the young boy ewwww) IS what everyone thought or suspected

Bruce Wayne: millionare bi-sexual playboy socialite by day
BATMAN: utterly cold and the imbodiement of fear, the incarnate of justice by night.

now that is daring character development!


lesbian Batwoman seems too much like a typical male fantasy, rather than an actual development on untraditional sexual orination...besides we have Ivy and Harly for the male fantasy job(and Ivy X Catwoman in HUSH **squells with joy*)...and frankly they do a very titilating job at that as it is thank you very much.


EDIT: yah montayna was a lesbian, it wasn't retconed, just revelled. *Harvy Dent fell in love with her and outered her when she rejected him durring the whole Earthquake thing. *its a long complicated thing but yah she's gay....she's gay.

elliott20
2006-06-01, 03:05 PM
honestly, I'm more annoyed with the new Chinese characters they have penned by morrison than this. I personally think people are making too big of a deal out of the fact that she's gay. but in a lot of ways, if that's how they approach her character, I might end up disliking her for the same reason I dislike the Asian superheroes... because that one aspect of their personality severely overshadows anything else about them.

I personally wouldn't mind if it was like, here's Batwoman, after all is said and done she happens to be gay. It's just part of who she is, not her entire character. To give thsi much weight to soemthing like this is pretty pointless.

DeathQuaker
2006-06-01, 03:09 PM
If you want a lesbian character, create a new character, know what I mean?

This is, essentially, a new character. There _was_ a Kathy Kane but it's been ages since she's been around and they've retconned the universe several times since we've last saw her... and she never was never a well known character to begin with. Basically they're making someone up and giving her the same name last seen in the comics 20 years ago, give or take.

(Edit: Sorry, I just noticed Alchemistmerlin already pointed this out.)

I _think_ perhaps the reason you're so upset is you're confusing Kathy Kane with someone else...


Didn't she have a thing going with **** Grayson for a while?

That would be Barbara Gordon, the original Batgirl. She is now known as the Oracle and is leader of a team of crimefighters called the Birds of Prey, which is, IMHO, the very very best comic book in existence. :)

And she still has a thing going on with **** Grayson. And despite all my fantasies about her and Dinah Lance ever since the "Hunt for Oracle" story years ago, she is definitely not a lesbian. :)

WampaX
2006-06-01, 03:28 PM
This is not the Cassandra Kane character?
They needed to create an all-new character? again?

The press is probably picking it up because they think that this is the Barbara Gordon character.

Dags
2006-06-01, 03:34 PM
Hmmm, I seem to remember a pilot episode or a season of the Birds of Prey on WB or something... all I really remember was one episode where they were playing Tatu during a fight scene... not really sure if they knew Tatu were lesbians when they played them during a show that seemed... well, you get where I'm going.

I don't read DC, so I don't REALLy give a rat's arse. It's not a big deal that she is a les, it's the fact that they marketed her as a les. Now all thos 18-60 year old men are going to buy it JUST to see some lesbian action instead of buying a Batwoman comic. It's a cheap ploy to boost sales.

ed
2006-06-01, 03:43 PM
wampa quoth
press is probably picking it up because they think that this is the barbara gordon character.
i think you may be giving the press too much credit for their mad comics-fu. :> that said, if that's the case, in the TV show (most people's sole exposure to the character), she was a librarian, no? cuz, you know, that's an even bigger set of adolescent male fantasies. :>

ed

Adeptus
2006-06-01, 04:05 PM
Yeah, I mean, what's wrong with changing a character solely to fit the lastest trendy ideology? I mean, comic books are supposed to teach conformity, right?

Uhg... "latest trend ideology"?

Are you saying gay people are a late trend? Listen. People do realize they are gay late in life too. I don't see what the big deal is here. Heck, nearly 10% of people are gay anyway, and so far they are very much under representen in the superheroes.

Less with the knee jerk reactions people. A super can be gay as much as the people in the next cubicle over, or the person who sells your groceries.

DeathQuaker
2006-06-01, 10:41 PM
This is not the Cassandra Kane character?

I'm pretty sure it's not. She is neither a Gotham socialite nor would she be old enough to have had a romantic history with Montoya.

In fact, I have trouble imagining Cassie exploring her sexuality at all, let alone coming out.



They needed to create an all-new character? again?


Apparently. Ever since they did the whole Infinite Crisis nonsense I've mostly ignored all the DC comics except the single one I like that fortunately hasn't been too messed up.



The press is probably picking it up because they think that this is the Barbara Gordon character.

Probably. Or simply that there will be a lesbian in the Batman mythos at all.

Wonder Woman had a woman in love with her before the series ended, and no one really noticed that.


Hmmm, I seem to remember a pilot episode or a season of the Birds of Prey on WB or something... all I really remember was one episode where they were playing Tatu during a fight scene... not really sure if they knew Tatu were lesbians when they played them during a show that seemed... well, you get where I'm going.

The point of Birds of Prey TV was to have as much leather and cleavage on the television as much as possible. Which, really, there's nothing wrong with that. ;) Though it also really had nothing to do with the comic book. Which has leather, cleavage, and actual good writing.

ElfLad
2006-06-01, 10:51 PM
Uhg... "latest trend ideology"?

Are you saying gay people are a late trend? Listen. People do realize they are gay late in life too. I don't see what the big deal is here. Heck, nearly 10% of people are gay anyway, and so far they are very much under representen in the superheroes.

Less with the knee jerk reactions people. A super can be gay as much as the people in the next cubicle over, or the person who sells your groceries.
10%?

That was taken from an outdated Kinsey study. He interviewed prison inmates, and a lot of them were gay because of "situational homosexuality."

Actual figures are closer to 2-3% for men and <1% for women.

And, really, the tokenism mentality annoys me more than the gayness. (i.e. Black Panther!!! P.S. he's black)

Ing
2006-06-01, 11:16 PM
yes but the bisexual population who live as homosexuals would be far greater.

Haggis_McCrablice
2006-06-02, 02:07 AM
The 10% homosexual population is as grossly inflated as the "3 million homeless in the U.S." statistic that gets trotted out every so often by well-meaning but woefully misinformed Small-Minds.

The thing about homosexuality is that it's not only "kitchy" these days, but when it's represented in comic books certain rules follow:
(1) They are a recognized minority and therefore must always be presented in a positive and sympathetic light, just like African Americans (am I to believe in all of Gotham there isn't one black gang member for Batman to slap around?).
(2) There must not be villains who are defined by their sexual preference, only strong, upstanding gay heroes.
(3) You must not impugn, judge, or ridicule homosexuals and their behavior. (You can bash conservatives freely because they are not a recognized minority. Religion is fair game as long as you don't target a specific faith, e.g. Muslims, Catholics, Jews, and any other faith with a powerful *antidefamation lobby. [throws out script in which Supergirl converts to Catholicism, on which the banner on the cover pronounces her as "the world's easiest superhero!"]). *
(4) Homosexuality must be a choice, and not caused or prompted by alcohol, drugs, or some sort of mind-control [throws out script in which a gay villain taints the city's water supply with homosexuality-inducing chemicals, and another in which he blankets the city in "gay gas"].

Because it pisses off the loony right wing (And that's ALWAYS a good thing)
Yes, and the loony left isn't out there slapping ratings on our TV programs (ugly little monstrosities which destroy lives, cost jobs, and rob us of our rights as Americans), crying for laws to restrict freedom of speech because they don't like something someone said on the radio that was critical of them, and pushing for stiffer parental guidance laws for the music and film industry. Oh, wait.... * *:-[

CelestialStick
2006-06-02, 05:47 AM
A) Changing what character? It's a DIFFERENT character. Many people have worn the various batcowls, Batman goes through sidekicks and spinoffs like Joker goes through laughing gas.

No, go back and read the article. It's the same Batwoman, just retooled to be politically correct. The article actually says that did it for purposes of "diversity" which is codeword for whatever's trendy on the left at the moment.

Ok, so I see that several people claimed that Batwoman is a new character. I've quoted below the portion of the original article which says otherwise. I've also included the portion where they say that they're trying to include "diversity."


Updated:2006-05-31 18:48:53
Batwoman Is Back as a Lesbian
By LARRY McSHANE
AP
AP/DC Comics
[snip]

The original Batwoman was started in 1956, and killed off in 1979. The new character will share the same name as her original alter ego, Kathy Kane. And the new Batwoman arrives with ties to others in the Gotham City world.

[snip]

"This is not just about having a gay character," DiDio said. "We're trying for overall diversity in the DC universe. We have strong African-American, Hispanic and Asian characters. We're trying to get a better cross-section of our readership and the world."

[snip]



Oh, as far as the much-vaunted 10% figure, the Kinsey Report concluded that among sex-offenders in prison 6% of the population was homosexual. Leftists then "rounded" that figure up to 10% and applied it to the entire population. Based on a plethora of other studies, the gay population actually comes in around a percent or two in America, as someone already posted.

That's about the size of the Jewish population in America. Are there any Jewish DC superheroes? I know that there's one Marvel Jewish supervillain (Magneto) but I'm not familar with any Jewish superheroes. I'd personally like to see one who goes around stopping anti-semitic terrorists from setting off nukes and biological weapons in America.

Oh, and as long as we're talking about diversity, how about some fundamentalist Christian superheroes? There are far more fundamentalist Christians than homosexuals in America, but I don't see fundamentalist Christians represented in comics. For that matter, how about a Catholic superhero? Are there any of those? Catholicism is the single largest Christian denomination in the America. So to be property representative, there should be a whole league of Catholic superheroes.

That would assume, of course, that DC is interested in some sort of real diversity or real representation, rather than just following the latest trendy ideology.

DeathQuaker
2006-06-02, 08:04 AM
No, go back and read the article. It's the same Batwoman, *just retooled to be politically correct. The article actually says that did it for purposes of "diversity" which is codeword for whatever's trendy on the left at the moment.

Ok, so I see that several people *claimed that Batwoman is a new character. *I've quoted below the portion of the original article which says otherwise. *I've also included the portion where they say that they're trying to include "diversity."

Your quote contradicts what you claim here.

The quote from the article:

The original Batwoman was started in 1956, and killed off in 1979. The new character will share the same name as her original alter ego, Kathy Kane. And the new Batwoman arrives with ties to others in the Gotham City world.

So.... reading comprehension 101:

It says that the Original Batwoman/Kathy Kane died in 1979. So that means the original character is dead, still dead, and always dead.

It says that the new character has the same name as the character that is dead. This means that she is a NEW character, not someone coming back. That she has the same name does not make her the same person, or else they would saying that the old Kathy Kane who died in 1979 is not dead and is returning. They would not be calling her "new."

And it again refers to her as the new Batwoman. Again, "new" indicates she is not a character we have seen before. We might extrapolate that she is based on the Kathy Kane who we have not seen in 27 years (and as far as I can tell, was not really MISSED in 27 years). But she is still, as the article clearly states several times, a NEW character.

What I said about the character in my first post still applies and is consistent with the article. And the other people who said she is a new character are clearly not wrong either.

And as much as I'd love to dig into the political and moral debating going on, I don't come to this board to discuss real life. It's a comic book, guys.

octopod
2006-06-02, 09:17 AM
Sigh.

Can't they make a character who's lesbian without making a Big Stupid Thing out of it? I mean, it's just one of those things that some people are -- why is it the defining characteristic? Why, furthermore, does she have to dress like that?

::looks at rant::
::realises this is asking "Why can't everyone just be Neil Gaiman?::

Sigh. I blame the patriarchy.

Playelf
2006-06-02, 09:35 AM
Has it occured to you that a large portion of the comic-book buying public are the quote unquote "baby dykes"? They don't tend to goto the conventions, mostly because comic book conventions are crammed full of Comic-Book-Guy's of the Simpsons fans and the 'last' thing a gay teenage girl wants it to be surrounded by them all day, but it's still a large demographic of the readership, just a fairly quiet one.

I know for a simple fact (if you actualy get out and live rather than get wound up about comic book re-writes) that alot of the now very assuredly gay women read things like the old X-men comics. There've been entire conversations i've been involved in about who worked out they liked girls after getting a crush on X female comic book hero/villain. Incidently, it's been established as Harley Quinn, followed by Rogue as the two leading characters.

You have to accept something, the comic books from the 60's, are not the same as the ones from the 80's. The ones from the 80's are not the same as the ones now. They change according to the social trends.

Brief description of trend for the people who will add a 'y' on the end: A social trend is a particular set of behaviour that emerges within society, be it a general conseus of opinion within a large group, or just a small demographic.

One of the social trends we're enjoying now is that you're allowed to be gay, it's not something that makes your mother usher you inside and tells you to 'Stay away from X, he/she's not right'. And i'm glad for that. I'm also glad that it's reached a stage where the mainstream media is allowing their pillar of the community archetypes to have a different sexuality too.

Then you've got to remember that the comic book writers didn't run out into the streets and scream OMFG!!! LOLZ LOOK WHAT WE DID! BATGIRL IS GAAAAAAY!!!!

The media picked up on it, and because lesbians sell papers and make people watch the news, they blew it right up. As the writers said, it was a decision they made to diversify a little bit. If they'd made Batman (openly?) gay, they'd have been ripped apart by everyone going 'We told you so!' and if they made another male character gay, they'd have been accused of trying to corrupt the youth of the world by some bunch of homophobes. The fact is that women have always been seen as the less threatening gender and therefore female homosexuality is the first to be accepted. In ten to twenty years time, we'll hopefully be allowed to see a gay male superhero too.


And as for the statistics on the gay population...did you know that 99.8% of statistics are made up on the spot?

Since a 'ton' of gay people arn't 'out' and those that are might not want to announce it on a survey, and since an actual national survey (surveying everyone in the nation, rather than five people from each state and claiming it's national) are very rarely conducted, you can't rely on those numbers anyway...

And there have easily been over a hundred super-heroes in the past 40 years, so by your own statistics, we're due at least two or three gay ones by now.

ed
2006-06-02, 09:53 AM
stick quoth
the latest trendy ideology.
again: as of when was sexual identity a matter of trendy ideology? gayness to you is just a trendy ideology? i suppose then that religion is also just a trendy ideology to you, stick?

and as for jewish characters: kitty pryde (x-men). my info is at least 1.5 decades out of date at that.

ed

DeathQuaker
2006-06-02, 10:12 AM
In ten to twenty years time, we'll hopefully be allowed to see a gay male superhero too.

There are gay male superheroes... in Marvel and Image comics, IIRC. They're just not very well known.

And there are a lot of gay and bisexual characters in comic books, though again, not very well known. Catwoman's sidekick Holly has a girlfriend. Birds of Prey had a man in love with another man.

And again, somehow it flew completely under the radar, but Wonder Woman--a pretty big name character--had a woman in love with her. They didn't have a relationship, but Wonder Woman didn't reject her "because she was gay" (it was more to do that... ah, never mind. It was a really convoluted plot not worth explaining). But it's _good_ that it flew under the radar... people went, yeah, she has a potential female love interest... oh, isn't it a shame it didn't work out... and moved on...

Just somehow, for some reason, this has hit the media, probably just because it has the bat-logo on it. It's nice, I think, that there are more diverse characters in comics--but I agree people shouldn't be waving flags going, "WOO! LOOK! WE'RE DIVERSE!" as yeah, it does smack a bit of exploitation. There's a difference between visibility and inclusivity versus PC-pandering.

What really amuses me is it strikes me that the people who seem the most visibly outraged by this whole thing are the people who clearly do not read comic books and have no idea what kind of characters are in them these days.

We can see from the beginning of the thread that a bunch of people thought the "Batwoman" character was an entirely different person than who they thought she was--much of the ensuing drama was based entirely on ignorance and misconception.

As are much of these kind of debates, it seems. *sigh* Hence I think I'll head out soon.



For that matter, how about a Catholic superhero?

The Huntress in DC comics is Catholic. For a long time she wore a cross on her uniform. She did go through a story arc where she "lost her faith" but this was to do with a personal issue, and IIRC she is practicing once again. I remember her telling Black Canary she was planning to attend mass a little while ago.

And I'm sure she's not the only one. My X-men knowledge has gaps, but wasn't Nightcrawler a monk or something?

Perhaps before you ask, "Where is such-and-such a kind of character" in comics, you ought to go out and read a few. With the exception of examples of real-life extremists (such as fundamentalists of any religion) you'll probably find a character that represents one group or another.

TinSoldier
2006-06-02, 10:25 AM
again: as of when was sexual identity a matter of trendy ideology? gayness to you is just a trendy ideology? i suppose then that religion is also just a trendy ideology to you, stick?

and as for jewish characters: kitty pryde (x-men). my info is at least 1.5 decades out of date at that.

edWhile his word choice could have been better, I think what he means by "trendy ideology" is more along the lines of how Haggis described it above.

Suddenly it is trendy to vaunt this aspect of a character's personality in order to sell the comic books. "Hey, look at us! We're cool and with the times because we have a gay main character!"

I'm sure there were better ways of doing this. Heck, our TV news stations picked up on this!

I remember a couple of years ago wasn't there a Catwoman comic where she was lesbian? I think I flipped through a couple of the issues but I wasn't impressed with the storytelling or the artwork. The orientation issue had little or nor bearing on it.

Plus I think there have been several hints or suggestions that Selena Kyle was at least bisexual... but since I've only got a couple of graphic novels and none of the comics I don't have a good reference.

CelestialStick
2006-06-02, 10:42 AM
Your quote contradicts what you claim here.

The quote from the article:

So.... reading comprehension 101:

It says that the Original Batwoman/Kathy Kane died in 1979. So that means the original character is dead, still dead, and always dead.

It says that the new character has the same name as the character that is dead. This means that she is a NEW character, not someone coming back. That she has the same name does not make her the same person, or else they would saying that the old Kathy Kane who died in 1979 is not dead and is returning. They would not be calling her "new."

And it again refers to her as the new Batwoman. Again, "new" indicates she is not a character we have seen before. We might extrapolate that she is based on the Kathy Kane who we have not seen in 27 years (and as far as I can tell, was not really MISSED in 27 years). But she is still, as the article clearly states several times, a NEW character.

What I said about the character in my first post still applies and is consistent with the article. And the other people who said she is a new character are clearly not wrong either.

And as much as I'd love to dig into the political and moral debating going on, I don't come to this board to discuss real life. It's a comic book, guys.

Let's see: "new" character has the same name as an "old" character, including the same alter ego name. Sounds like the same character to me. Indeed it is the same character, or people wouldn't be debating whether the change is good or bad.

In any case, getting snippy doesn't make you more persuasive; it just shows your lack of tolerance for anyone who doesn't march in lockstep with your beliefs.

If you don't want to discuss anything political, then don't discuss it. Don't discuss politics and then claim that you don't come here to discuss it. At least be honest.

Fundamentalist Christians don't believe anything that wasn't considered mainstream Christianity a few decades back, and indeed share a good deal of beliefs with the largest Christian denomination in America, Catholicism. It's the people who have, like you did here, tried to portray anything seriously Christian as "extremism" who are the extremists. I say that as someone who's Jewish, not Christian, himself. And I'm not even an observant Jew. But I do teach history, and I do know intolerance and ignorance when it comes out of someone's mouth, as it has from yours right here. I don't agree with serious Christians about a good many things, but in my experience they are more tolerant and less extreme than people like you.

So there's one Catholic superhero? Hey, that's great! Was she Catholic in any meaningful sense or just a token Catholic? Did she act in any way in line with serious Catholic theology, or did she just conveniently wear a cross around her neck?

Frankly I don't really care whether they have a Jewish or Catholic or fundamentalist Protestant superhero. But let's not pretend that retooling Batwoman to be gay has anything to do with diversity or representation. It's political correctness, pure and simple.

Ing
2006-06-02, 11:17 AM
poor gay people...even when people talk about diversity they're left out and labled PC.... ::)

because you know since they're diffrent including them isn't about diversity.....


anyway.

Catholic Superheros:
Daredevil: one of his motivations is "catholic" guilt, this was played up in the movie
Nightcrawler: Is VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY catholic. was once in the seminary but concluded that it wasn't god's path for him after some soul searching
Bruce Wayne: non-practicing Catholic or Anglican

(technicly fundamentalist isn't a religion its a pt of view, and often one that consists of i'm right end of story, but i think you meant Evangelical christians some include)
Ultimate Rogue
Superman: with the small town christian values
the Crazed military scienctist from: GOd loves man kills (hey not every character has to be a positive role modle for their ideology)

Later Day Saints
I believe Blade was mentioned as this

Jewish
Kitty Pryde
Magneto (lasped)
Ben Grim AKA The THING

its pretty diverse out there allready in terms of religion. however its been a LONG time comming for sexual diversity, the ban agianst gay and bi characters has hurt the industry, causing them to scrap some good ideas and bring in bad ones. heres some examples of how its hurt the industry

1) Nightcrawlers parentage.
INTENDED: Destiny is his mother impregnated by Mystique in male form. note that his Catholic beleifs might cause some hellofa good drama if this were revealed just to add to the delightful chaos
WHAT WE GOT: his father's an immortal demonish mutant (supposidly the devil is based on this mutant) who was banished to another realm by Angel's descendants. this brings several problems...1) Azreal the demon guy, has been shown leaving the plane to impregnate women...why does he keep going back. 2) Marvel verse allready established that there are REAL demonic forces. Mephistopholis for example had previously been stated as being many culture's iinspiration for their Devil characters. there was no reason to rewrite the demonic origins into a mutant POV when you allready achknowledge there are Real freaking demons....

please don't let this tripe happen to your favorite comic book

DraxtonSmitz
2006-06-02, 12:14 PM
New Batwoman pic:

http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/6386/batwoman5ht.jpg

Keebler_the_Elf
2006-06-02, 12:32 PM
I thought Superhero religions had come up before on this forum. If so sorry for reposting this link, but it is a list of most of the superheros and thier religions. There are quite a few catholics on there:

http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/comic_book_religion.html

Maelstrom
2006-06-02, 12:55 PM
Hmmmm --- a character whose alter-ego name is the same...whose superhero name is the same... who has the same ties in Gotham...

but, alas, a different character altogether....ho-hum

Sexual orientation aside, sounds like a bunch of doublespeak to me. :yawn: Besides, Batwoman never got me reading the comic just for her.

Kinda like WNBA....their mechanics are good, just can't dunk.

Snooo snoo...hehe

ed
2006-06-02, 01:14 PM
tin soldier: maybe so, but i've read a number of stick's posts and he's usually pretty clear in his thinking and explanations. perhaps it would be best if we let stick speak for himself. heaven knows the man's capable of it. :>

ing, i had no idea re: kurt's parentage, thanks! when was all this revealed? evidently i missed it. he's always been one of my favorite of the x-men.

draxton: thanks for the new pic. personally, i like the costume. i was afraid they were gonna make her look too lipstick.

ed

TinSoldier
2006-06-02, 01:20 PM
tin soldier: maybe so, but i've read a number of stick's posts and he's usually pretty clear in his thinking and explanations. perhaps it would be best if we let stick speak for himself. heaven knows the man's capable of it. :>

edTrue, and I thought of that when I posted it. It's just that I generally agreed but it's just the way that he said it -- oh, we've already had this conversation :D !

CelestialStick
2006-06-02, 01:20 PM
Catholic Superheros:
Daredevil: one of his motivations is "catholic" guilt, this was played up in the movie
Nightcrawler: Is VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY catholic. was once in the seminary but concluded that it wasn't god's path for him after some soul searching
Bruce Wayne: non-practicing Catholic or Anglican

(technicly fundamentalist isn't a religion its a pt of view, and often one that consists of i'm right end of story, but i think you meant Evangelical christians some include)
Ultimate Rogue
Superman: with the small town christian values
the Crazed military scienctist from: GOd loves man kills (hey not every character has to be a positive role modle for their ideology)

Later Day Saints
I believe Blade was mentioned as this

Jewish
Kitty Pryde
Magneto (lasped)
Ben Grim AKA The THING

its pretty diverse out there allready in terms of religion. however its been a LONG time comming for sexual diversity, the ban agianst gay and bi characters has hurt the industry, causing them to scrap some good ideas and bring in bad ones. heres some examples of how its hurt the industry

1) Nightcrawlers parentage.
INTENDED: Destiny is his mother impregnated by Mystique in male form. note that his Catholic beleifs might cause some hellofa good drama if this were revealed just to add to the delightful chaos
WHAT WE GOT: his father's an immortal demonish mutant (supposidly the devil is based on this mutant) who was banished to another realm by Angel's descendants. this brings several problems...1) Azreal the demon guy, has been shown leaving the plane to impregnate women...why does he keep going back. 2) Marvel verse allready established that there are REAL demonic forces. Mephistopholis for example had previously been stated as being many culture's iinspiration for their Devil characters. there was no reason to rewrite the demonic origins into a mutant POV when you allready achknowledge there are Real freaking demons....

please don't let this tripe happen to your favorite comic book
Thanks for the list.

In Christianity, "fundamentalist" refers to people who believe in getting back to the "fundament" or root of Christianity--the New Testament. Their basic perspective is that the Old and New Testaments mean what they say, rather than being allegorical as non-fundamentalists often claim. "Evangelical" refers to those who believe that Christianity places a duty upon them to "evangelize" i.e. spread the Word of God. Not all evangelical Christians are fundamentlists, but so far as I know, all fundamentalists are evangelical--that is, they believe that the New Testament specifically charges them to go out and covert other people, and that one cannot be a good Christian without trying to save others from Hell, which according them one an do ony by accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. So where I used "fundamentalist" I mean it, and not "evangelical."

Let me emphasize once again that I am explaining, not evangelizing, because I am not Christian, but Jewish, not an observant Jew either.

Speaking of Judaism: nobody talks about non-observant Jews (like Magneto or me) as "lapsed." Indeed I have rarely heard anyone use that term for anyone who has stopped practicing a religion other than Catholicism, though "lapsed" does get used from time to time in other contexts.

When DC decided they wanted more black superheroes, they didn't turn Hal Jordan black, they invented John Stewart, and in so doing, created a cool new character. If they want a gay Batwoman, let them invent a new one instead of rewriting the existing one. If they have to be politically correct, they could at least be original about it.

The Prince of Cats
2006-06-02, 01:49 PM
Jewish
Ben Grim AKA The THING
Speaking of'things'... Was he originally Jewish or did he convert post-metamorphosis? I only wonder because there is that minor surgical procedure involved in being Jewish and how do you perform it on a thingie made of rock?

These are the questions that keep me awake at night...

Idiotbox90
2006-06-02, 01:53 PM
It's not that big of a deal. Marvel already has multiple gay characters. Of course, they were all in team comics. I just hope that they make her the superhero who happens to be lesbian, instead of the lesbian superhero.

DeathQuaker
2006-06-02, 02:12 PM
Let's see: *"new" character has the same name as an "old" character, including the same alter ego name. *Sounds like the same character to me. Indeed it is the same character, or people wouldn't be debating whether the change is good or bad.

In any case, getting snippy doesn't make you more persuasive; it just shows your lack of tolerance for anyone who doesn't march in lockstep with your beliefs.

WHOAH whoah whoah whoah. Okay, I got snippy, I am SORRY. But somewhere along the lines things got a little out of hand here. I felt you misread the article. I pointed out, strongly, why. I am STILL of the opinion that people are not realizing that the character in question is a nod to another character that died 27 years ago and that therefore doesn't constitute a huge change/big deal. That is, however, my opinion.

You CLEARLY disagree. That's fine. Contrary to what you might think, I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me. I just encourage people to back up what they know with facts. I felt you had very seriously mis-read the article and were perpetuating fallacies based on that misreading. Hence the strong language, because otherwise I felt I would be ignored.

I am sorry for upsetting you.



If you don't want to discuss anything political, then don't discuss it. Don't discuss politics and then claim that you don't come here to discuss it. At least be honest.

I didn't feel that I discussed anything political in that quote. I did mention in a subsequent post that I agreed with the folks that some of the seeming "PC-ness" is exploitative. Other than that, anything that sounded political was unintentional, and again, I sincerely apologize.



Fundamentalist Christians don't believe anything that wasn't considered mainstream Christianity a few decades back, and indeed share a good deal of beliefs with the largest Christian denomination in America, Catholicism. *It's the people who have, like you did here, tried to portray anything seriously Christian as "extremism" who are the extremists.

What? Huh? Where did I mention Christians at all? (Apart from describing Huntress as Catholic.)

I mentioned "not fundamentalists of any religion." I have been led to believe that fundamentalists are very, very extreme. (And "extreme" isn't bad, per se, just hard to write in something written for general consumption, like a comic book, which is why I thought they would not be included in comics.) Perhaps, as it appears, I misunderstood the word "fundamentalist."

I was not intending to say anything nasty about Christians nor any other religion in general in any way, and do not feel that I did. Again, it seems I misunderstood the term "fundamentalist." I am very sorry for doing that. I was not looking to pick a fight over that. It was a poor choice of words.

(Addendum: And didn't I say ignorance was the source of most debate? See? I've proved my point, if rather embarrasingly. :) )

For the record, I am a devout and practicing Christian Quaker (hence the avatar). I have absolutely no problem with anyone devoting themselves to a religion, as I do myself. And being a Christian, specifically, it's awfully hard for me to be intolerant of the actual faith that I practice. :)



So there's one Catholic superhero?

As I'd mentioned, she was just an example. :)



Hey, that's great! Was she Catholic in any meaningful sense or just a token Catholic?

Yep, and nope. It was just part of her character.



*Did she act in any way in line with serious Catholic theology

Yes and no, and when she felt she had seriously fallen out of her faith's teachings is when she had her crisis of faith. It was a very good story.



Frankly I don't really care whether they have a Jewish or Catholic or fundamentalist Protestant superhero.

Well, you did ask. :)

I really feel at this point you greatly misunderstood a lot of what I said, and I hope I've cleared things up a little. We seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot, CelestialStick, and I apologize for my part in that in getting "snippy." I won't bother you any further.

CelestialStick
2006-06-02, 02:31 PM
[deleted earlier comments as they were based on a misreading of somebody else's comments about a "rocky thingie." ;)]




WHOAH whoah whoah whoah. Okay, I got snippy, I am SORRY. But somewhere along the lines things got a little out of hand here. I felt you misread the article. I pointed out, strongly, why. I am STILL of the opinion that people are not realizing that the character in question is a nod to another character that died 27 years ago and that therefore doesn't constitute a huge change/big deal. That is, however, my opinion.

You CLEARLY disagree. That's fine. Contrary to what you might think, I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me. I just encourage people to back up what they know with facts. I felt you had very seriously mis-read the article and were perpetuating fallacies based on that misreading. Hence the strong language, because otherwise I felt I would be ignored.

I am sorry for upsetting you.


I didn't feel that I discussed anything political in that quote. I did mention in a subsequent post that I agreed with the folks that some of the seeming "PC-ness" is exploitative. Other than that, anything that sounded political was unintentional, and again, I sincerely apologize.


What? Huh? Where did I mention Christians at all? (Apart from describing Huntress as Catholic.)

I mentioned "not fundamentalists of any religion." I have been led to believe that fundamentalists are very, very extreme. (And "extreme" isn't bad, per se, just hard to write in something written for general consumption, like a comic book, which is why I thought they would not be included in comics.) Perhaps, as it appears, I misunderstood the word "fundamentalist."

I was not intending to say anything nasty about Christians nor any other religion in general in any way, and do not feel that I did. Again, it seems I misunderstood the term "fundamentalist." I am very sorry for doing that. I was not looking to pick a fight over that. It was a poor choice of words.

(Addendum: And didn't I say ignorance was the source of most debate? See? I've proved my point, if rather embarrasingly. :) )

For the record, I am a devout and practicing Christian Quaker (hence the avatar). I have absolutely no problem with anyone devoting themselves to a religion, as I do myself. And being a Christian, specifically, it's awfully hard for me to be intolerant of the actual faith that I practice. :)


As I'd mentioned, she was just an example. :)


Yep, and nope. It was just part of her character.


Yes and no, and when she felt she had seriously fallen out of her faith's teachings is when she had her crisis of faith. It was a very good story.


Well, you did ask. :)

I really feel at this point you greatly misunderstood a lot of what I said, and I hope I've cleared things up a little. We seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot, CelestialStick, and I apologize for my part in that in getting "snippy." I won't bother you any further.
Thank you for your apology and if I misinterpreted what you meant then I'm sorry too. :)

Edit: Of course Quaker beliefs have been at odds with the beliefs of many other Christian denominations since the get-go; peacefully at odds, you might say. ;)

Ing
2006-06-02, 02:42 PM
Speaking of'things'... Was he originally Jewish or did he convert post-metamorphosis? I only wonder because there is that minor surgical procedure involved in being Jewish and how do you perform it on a thingie made of rock?

These are the questions that keep me awake at night...


BEn Grimm has always been Jewsih, they just wern't allowed to say it until censorship was lowered.

nidently the THING movie rocks and is kick ass....The THing comic character is the Earth element to the fantastic Four

CelestialStick
2006-06-02, 03:01 PM
BEn Grimm has always been Jewsih, they just wern't allowed to say it until censorship was lowered.

nidently the THING movie rocks and is kick ass....The THing comic character is the Earth element to the fantastic Four

Ah, here, I found his Wikipedia entry, and here's a snippet:

Some personality traits of the cantankerously lovable, occasionally cigar-smoking, Jewish native of the Lower East Side are popularly recognized as having been inspired by those of co-creator Kirby, who in interviews [citation needed] said he'd intended Grimm to be an alter ego of himself. However, as was usual for comic-book characters of that era, no religion was publicly mentioned. Grimm has since been revealed to be Jewish, like Kirby; the revelation occurred in Fantastic Four (Vol. 3) #56, published in August 2002, in a story titled "Remembrance of Things Past".

I think, by the way, that the censorship was self-censorship on the part of Marvel: there certainly wasn't any federal law which with I'm familiar that kept Marvel from saying that The Thing is Jewish. Most likely they were just afraid they would lose readership back then, though I wonder if that's really true or if they were just unnecessarily afraid of it.

I read the Wikipedia entry on Huntress and see that there have been several different versions. Apparently one version had her as the child of a Mafia don, and thus Catholic. She does, however, sleep around quite a bit according to the entry, so it doesn't sound much like she's a practicing Catholic. Alas the entry contains nothing about her crisis of faith. :( On the flip side, however, it does contain a couple of hot drawings of her. ;)

Edit: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

List of Catholic superheroes is a list of superhero characters whose Catholicism plays a significant or intense role in their characters stories.

* Crazy Jane
* Daredevil
* Jackie Estacado
* Gambit
* Huntress
* The Magdalena
* Nightcrawler
* Sara Pezzini
* Polaris
* Havok
* The Punisher
* Venom


Edit: Also from Wikipedia:

Each of these characters are all three of the following (1) Jewish in practice, not just Jewish in background, (2) superheroes, and (3) primarily associated with comic books. Exceptions to each of these are noted separately below.

* Atom Smasher (formerly Nuklon of Infinity, Inc.) (DC Comics)
* Colossal Boy of the Legion of Super-Heroes (DC Comics)
* Doc Samson (Marvel Comics)
* Justice (formerly Marvel Boy of the New Warriors) (Marvel Comics)
* Masada (Team Youngblood)
* The Monolith (DC Comics)
* Nite-Owl II (DC Comics Alan Moore's The Watchmen)
* Prime (Malibu Comics)
* Ragman (DC Comics) Ragman (miniseries) #1 Oct. 1991 DC Comics
* Sabra (Marvel Comics)
* Seraph of the Global Guardians (DC Comics)
* Shadowcat (Kitty Pryde) of the X-Men (Marvel Comics)
* Songbird of the Thunderbolts (formerly Screaming Mimi)
* The Thing (Ben Grimm) of the Fantastic Four (Marvel Comics)
* Volcana (Marvel Comics)
* The Escapist

[edit]

Non-Jewish in practice, though Jewish in backgrounds

* Iceman (Marvel Comics) - half-Jewish
* Moon Knight (Marvel Comics) Moon Knight (1st series) #37 May 1984 Marvel Comics
* Sandman (Golden Age) (DC Comics) - half-Jewish
* Phantom Stranger (DC Comics) - possibly Jewish
* Gertrude Yorkes of the Runaways (Marvel Comics) - Jewish family, currently agnostic
* Magneto (Marvel Comics) - born Jewish and as a boy was a Jewish prisoner at Auschwitz, but turned his back on his human ethnicity and religion and has for years only identified himself as a mutant. [1]
* Scarlet Witch -- Wanda Maximoff -- self-identifies with the Roma people, raised by Roma, her mother Magda was Roma, and an Auschwitz survivor, but her father Magneto was born Jewish.
* Quicksilver -- Pietro Maximoff -- he has not so completely identified himself with the Roma, but like his twin sister Wanda Maximoff, was raised by the Roma and his mother was Roma, while his father is the Jewish Magneto.
* Nyssa Raatko -- Jewish mother, non-practicing.
* Polaris -- possibly Jewish father.
* Sublime (Wildstorm Comics) - Jewish mother and raised in a Jewish household but non-practicing.

[edit]

Other comic characters who are not superheroes

* Reuben Flagg (American Flagg!)
* Harvey Pekar (American Splendor)
* the main characters in Maus
* Bernie Rosenthal, ex-girlfriend of Captain America (Marvel Comics)
* Two-Gun Kid (Marvel Comics)
* Arthur (The Tick)
* Jonathan August (Albino Comics)
* Aurora Rabinowitz Marvel Comics Tomb of Dracula

[edit]

Not primarily associated with comic books

* Jesus Christ, The New Testament
* The Hebrew Hammer (Mordechai Jefferson Carver) (Movie) (2003)
* Ron Stoppable (sidekick to Kim Possible) (Television) (2002-2005)
* Captain Hero (Drawn Together)
* Willow Rosenberg (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)
* Jewcano (Minoriteam)

[edit]

Also of Note

There also exists a team of Judaicly themed superheroes known as "The Jewish Hero Corps", printed by Leviathan press. They include Menorah Man, Yarmulke Youth, Matzah Woman, Driedel Maidel, Magen David, Minyan Man, and Shabbas Queen. They are not commonly recognized as actual characters primarily because only one issue of the comic is known to have been produced at this time.

I might also add that when I was a kid there was a comic book about the characters Batmensch and Rubin. It contained one particuarlly funny scene picturing a Superman-look alike with Batmensch saying to to Rubin, 'Funny, he doesn't look Jewish.' :D

Edit: I Googled "Batmensch and Rubin" and discovered that Pocket Books published it back in 1966, which puts it out at the same time as the campy Batman live-action tv series. I also discovered that there's another 45-year-old man who remembers Batmensch because he's running around the internet with the username "Batmensch." :D

Ing
2006-06-02, 03:53 PM
yah so like i said there's plenty of religious diversity.

the "self-censoring" is kinda iffy since there was that Comiccode authority that stamped stuff they approved of and claimed it was evil if they didnt have their stamp. its primarily the reason u started having campy superheros...such as Gaybatman and pedophileRobin, or overly cub scout superman, or vibrating molecules solve any problem flash

fun story: Spiderman was the first to buck them and publish without their authority

Adeptus
2006-06-05, 10:34 AM
This is a very cool thread. My compliments to everybody involved. Things heated up for a while, but now everyting is all nice and civilized again. I hope the mod's won't shut this down for touching on real world religion and sexuality.

But back on the topic. Fundamentalist ultimately means the same in religion and in philosophy. A fundamentalist takes some things as fundamental truths. Some things are seen as self-evidently true, and they are used as the building blocks of a worldview.

A fundamentalist christian conciders the existance of God (and Jesus) as fundaments (and some other christian beliefs as well usually) and his/her worldview springs from these things. This makes rational discussion with an atheist or an agnostic very difficult for these people (just an observation).

As for gay superheroes (male ones) one of the most cool and powerful supers in Stormwatch / Authority is Apollo, and he has a serious relationship with another male superhero in the same team. That doesn't feel PC at all, and it's not used as a "OMFG! Those guys are GAY!!" gimmick, but rather as a normal part of life for those characters and their team-mates. If anything some of their team-mates are jealous of them managing to find and maintain a steady and working relationship.

edit: I didn't know Ben Grim is jewish either. Stoopid timid Marvel keeping secrets about my favorite superhero!

Soniku
2006-06-05, 12:33 PM
Semi on topic note, Superman was originally jewish before he was made into a proper comic book character like we know him today.

Back on topic... Unless they over do it I think it will just be an interesting deviation, nothing spectacular but just another personality trait which could be used for some interesting storylines.

Ing
2006-06-05, 01:32 PM
true but funadmentals of christianity is accepted by most of everyone who calls themselves christians.

in the US at least, it has unfortunatly, taken to refering to a specific form of protestant Christians. and unfortunatly the conotation of their use of the word boils down to "These are the basic grounds of the religion, if you don't agree then you're not christian". in America its used to refer to a heterogenius often radical group of sects lacking a central authority or shared ritual structure but sharing a semi-unifying set of beliefs, that at times seem more political than spiritual

this is not a dig at Christians, i am mearly making a statement that fundamentalists as the term is used in the states refers usually to this alleged group of christians, regardless of whether or not they are a) really funadmentlist to christian teachings or b) even have beliefs REMOTELY christian like. for example there is the God hates... web sites, run by a group of chaps who consider themselves fundamentalists but whose idology matches Jim Jones more than it does JC. unfortunatly just as Conservative no longer means what its supposed to in the american geo-political landscape fundamentalist is not a term bastardized beyond any orignal meaning.

my 2 euros there

Mr._Blinky
2006-06-05, 07:40 PM
Speaking of'things'... Was he originally Jewish or did he convert post-metamorphosis? I only wonder because there is that minor surgical procedure involved in being Jewish and how do you perform it on a thingie made of rock?

These are the questions that keep me awake at night...

It wouldn't be an issue, since it's only performed on a baby boy, never on an adult. At least to my knowledge, which is pretty good, since I'm Jewish.

Ing
2006-06-05, 08:00 PM
why does the term Jackhammer and sand blaster come to mind?

Holy_Knight
2006-06-05, 11:53 PM
It wouldn't be an issue, since it's only performed on a baby boy, never on an adult. *At least to my knowledge, which is pretty good, since I'm Jewish.
Well, it's performed on adults in the Bible, although it could be that in modern Judaism it isn't.

Beleriphon
2006-06-06, 12:15 AM
Well, it's performed on adults in the Bible, although it could be that in modern Judaism it isn't.

More to the point non-Orthodox Judaism, Orthodox might although certainly isn't required. There are certain more extreme sects, as in any religion, that might suggest that.

All that being said Batman is generally suggested to be a non-practicing a Catholic. As for our new Bat character, like I need another one to keep track of. That being said with the whole One Year with not Bats, Supes or Wonder Woman things should be interesting allow more focus on some of the lesser know characters.

Valda, Adlav and Samiam: the Jacked-Up Trinity
2006-06-06, 01:06 AM
Ya'll might wanna nix the religion talk or else this (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=banter;action=display;num=1148711583 ;start=120#120) might happen.

belboz
2006-06-06, 01:17 AM
My previous exposure to Batwoman (not to be confused with Batgirl) is almost entirely through the comic genius of Lore Sjoberg...er...whose online version of the Book of Ratings does *not* seem to include his discussion of Batman sidekicks, or I would post the link.

At least acording to Sjoberg, the original Batwoman had the distinction of being the most amazingly retrogressive female comic book character ever. She fought crime with her superpowered *makeup compact* and her *expanding hairnet*. Seriously. As he put it, it makes "Wonder Woman and her Amazon Hot Pants seem like A Room of One's Own by comparison." Given this history, I think this decision is really extra-funny.

Holy_Knight
2006-06-06, 03:53 AM
That being said with the whole One Year with not Bats, Supes or Wonder Woman things should be interesting allow more focus on some of the lesser know characters.
Bah, they'll come back from their little trust-building vacation and Gotham, Metropolis, and wherever it is that Wonder Woman hangs out will be smoking piles of rubble.

--Okay probably not, but that's how it ought to happen... ;)

Valiena
2006-06-06, 04:30 AM
The Voice of Mod:[/b] This post violated the rules on posting about religion, posting about politics, and possibly denegrating people based on their sexual orientation. Deleted, poster warned.

Adeptus
2006-06-06, 04:50 AM
The so called Right wing loons, frown down upon homosexuality for the same reason as adultery, pre-marital sex, and bestiality. The sex organs were made for a purpose, that being the creation of children in the context of marriage. While all are of the same category, it matters not. In mainline Christianity, all sins are equal.
People who actually believe the bible, will point, rightly or wrongly, to Sodom and Gomorrah as reason to speak out so vigorously against homosexuality. You must forgive us that do not practise nominalism, and say what we believe. The left is by no means tolerant, they just pretend, and those of us on this side of the fence believe that tolerance is a virtue only for those without convictions.

You lost me totally there. I have no idea what you are supporting or arguing here. From your use of "the left" I gather you are a) from the states, and b) from the right side of the political spectrum.

It's amazing how you people manage to use "the left" as a pejorative and a synonym for "communist".

I'm also 99% sure you are (deliberately?) crossing from polite discussion of a comic's values to arguing politics in a way that is forbidden on these forums.

To get back on the topic:

I'm not a fan of DC. Unlike Marvel the DC "universe" doesn't really deserve the name. Some of the characters and stories work well on their own, but the whole setting with superman, JLA and Batman all thrown together (with all the rest) just doesn't work at all. Batman is at his best when concidered on his own, in a world without superhumans.

As for the gay batwoman... I just realized something that must amuse the gay community here in Finland.

Lesbian translates to Lesbo in finnish (obviously a loan word), and bat translates to Lepakko. The similarity is used by the gay community here (and others) so that lesbians are called Lepakko by themselves and others. It's a non-pejorative play on world. So Lepakko-nainen (Bat-woman) actually means Lesbian-Woman in finnish slang

:D That's pretty amusing

Krytha
2006-06-06, 04:53 AM
My friend keeps talking about a superhero called the Hebrew Hammer. Does anyone know where that's from? I had never heard about it except from him... and he sounds hilarious...

Holy_Knight
2006-06-06, 04:56 AM
:D That's pretty amusing
I wonder if that could be how they got the idea to do it in the first place.


My friend keeps talking about a superhero called the Hebrew Hammer. Does anyone know where that's from? I had never heard about it except from him... and he sounds hilarious...
I can't help you with the comic per se, but it sounds like it could based on Judas Maccabeus, AKA "Judas the Hammerer". That's just speculation on my part, though.

Ing
2006-06-06, 08:05 AM
The so called Right wing loons, frown down upon homosexuality for the same reason as adultery, pre-marital sex, and bestiality. The sex organs were made for a purpose, that being the creation of children in the context of marriage. While all are of the same category, it matters not. In mainline Christianity, all sins are equal.
People who actually believe the bible, will point, rightly or wrongly, to Sodom and Gomorrah as reason to speak out so vigorously against homosexuality. You must forgive us that do not practise nominalism, and say what we believe. The left is by no means tolerant, they just pretend, and those of us on this side of the fence believe that tolerance is a virtue only for those without convictions.

because i'm of leftist matieral rather than fight your accusations i'm just going to tollerate your opinion and move on


the hebew hammer was a movie on comedy central I believe

if i remember right he fought Santa Clause to save Chaunkuka. we watched it in our Catholic religion class for christmas break. year before that we were treated to Life of Brian. that was the best class ever

RecklessFable
2006-06-06, 11:00 AM
You lost me totally there. I have no idea what you are supporting or arguing here. From your use of "the left" I gather you are a) from the states, and b) from the right side of the political spectrum.

It's amazing how you people manage to use "the left" as a pejorative and a synonym for "communist".



Just wanted to clarify definitions of left and right as most Americans use it.

In 9th grade Social Studies class, at least in my school system, they actually showed us a chart where Extreme Left was Communism and Extreme Right was Fascism. It was also explained, that when you got to the far reaches of each end, they were indistinguishable to the the populace.

Judging by your "from the states" assessment, I'm guessing these terms mean something different where you are from. Maybe it's the similar to the difference between how in America, asking "Want a ride?" is very different than in England :p

Random rants:
As for the new Batwoman, as long as they don't kill off Batgirl to make room, I care little, I like Cassandra.

It is insteresting though how the new art has given Batwoman a strong jaw. I guess no matter how they implement it, they are going to be hamfisted about it in one way or another.

DC lost me during the Death of the Joker mega-crossover anyways. Worst ripoff ever.

Majin_Gojira
2006-06-06, 12:21 PM
All this hubaboloo over Batwoman being a lesbian is funny--especially with what's going on in the Titans comic.

For those that don't know, leader of the "Brotherhood of Evil" known as "The Brain" (who is a brain in a dalek-like shell) recentrly used cloning tech to regrow his body so he could consumate his relationship with Monsieur Mallah.

Did I mention that Monsieur Mallah is a guy?

Or that he's a Superintelligent Gorilla?

You'd think that Gay Monkey Love in a "Teen" comic would get them more up in arms...guess they aren't paying attention.

RecklessFable
2006-06-06, 12:42 PM
But Majin, those guys are Evil...

So the takeaway is that gay-beastiality is evil, but slightly butch (yet silicone augmented) lesbians are good.

And I still think DC has been jumping the shark for the last 20 years or so... If they needed a new character, why another bloody bat-character, especially with a living Batgirl?!?!

Dammit, making me angry again.

Truwar
2006-06-06, 12:52 PM
LOL, this thread is the reason they made her a Lesbian. Another Batwoman comic? YAWN. A LESBIAN Batwoman? Think of all the free press! You have angry conservatives repeating the name over and over and you have guilty liberals buying out of a sense of duty. Not to mention the young males who will buy the comic just to see her kiss another gal. ;)

Pure marketing 101.

BTW Blade is a Mormon? LOL! Where the heck did you hear that?

SpaceCoyoteVega
2006-06-06, 01:00 PM
Hmmm, I seem to remember a pilot episode or a season of the Birds of Prey on WB or something... all I really remember was one episode where they were playing Tatu during a fight scene... not really sure if they knew Tatu were lesbians when they played them during a show that seemed... well, you get where I'm going.



heh

appropriate of you to mention Tatu, given the direction DC seems to be taking this.

Yes, the creators of Birds of Prey were probably entirely aware that Tatu was being loudly marketed as a hot lesbian band in in lipstick and schoolgirl underwear. They might not have been aware that neither of the lead singers were actually lesbians, and the entire thing was a marketing ploy dreamed up by the band's (middle-aged, male) manager.

Doesn't mean some of the songs weren't good, and truth be told I wasn't that surprised. But it seems there can be a definate parallel drawn between that and the sudden introduction of LesbianBatwoman! by what seems to be the predominantly male creators of DC comics.

Ing
2006-06-06, 03:08 PM
i remember reading an article on
"are many vampires Mormons"

they listed some famous ones, but most were vampire hunters, they listed Blade as mormon but didn't count as he was only half vampire.

hell if i know, just seem to remember that.

Adeptus
2006-06-06, 04:32 PM
Just wanted to clarify definitions of left and right as most Americans use it.

Judging by your "from the states" assessment, I'm guessing these terms mean something different where you are from. Maybe it's the similar to the difference between how in America, asking "Want a ride?" is very different than in England :p


I'm from Scandinavia. In Europe people talk about "scandinavian socialism", in a very favorable light mostly. We pay pretty steep (and progressive) taxes, but we get a lot in return. Good healthcare for everybody, free university level education of high quality and so on. In the states socialism seems to be a dirty word.

I've seen an explanation at some point of how european right is pretty much equal to the democrats in the US, and the center is pretty much where the more extreme left is at the US. Something like that. :D

Sergeantbrother
2006-06-06, 06:26 PM
Lesbianism isn't controversial or brave or even politically correct. Its mainstream. I can turn on TV and see girls making out any day.

If the people at DC really cared about diversity, they would have a fat super hero. Talk about under representation. Or if they wanted controversy, go with a fundementalist as others have said, its not as though a fundementalist Christian is too weird to be a comic book hero.

People who are genuinly seen as uncool - like fundementalists and fat people - don't get a superhero. Lesbians however, are cool and chique and sexy and very popular right now - particularly among young men. So excuse me if I'm not impressed by this show of tollerance and diversity.

Ing
2006-06-06, 11:50 PM
there have been fundamentalist characters, though often they make better villians apprently :/

they did have a fat superhero...fat man the living flying saucer. needless to say it was embarasing.

frankly i don't see how a fat superhero would work...the physical stress and the limitations....it would be like having the continuing adventures of Chris Reaves (QUIVER IN EXCITEMENT AS HIS ADULT CARE PHYSICIAN ClEANS HIM).

what fundamentalist, they have christians, they have practicing christians, what more can u ask for? they can't really have an ultra consesrvative christian hero who goes around bombinb abortion clinics and beating up gay people...that'd be weird. what makes one a fundamentalist? do they have to be born agian protestants, can they be Catholics, or even Jewish? wouldn't anyone who takes their faith seriously, instead of as a cultural identity, be a fundamentalist? Nightcrawler is pretty fundamentals in his faith and is one of my favorites, as is the DareDevil. how much are u expecting it to be part of the character and what do u mean by fundamentalist?


might also add, that Spiderman when he started out was the 'uncool' guy. the typical nerd. and part of me is saddened and nestalgic for that age of his character...its something i think is downplayed in Ultimate.

Sergeantbrother
2006-06-07, 04:54 AM
Oh come on, most fat people (unless you mean morbidly obese) can get around just fine. They can walk, run, jump, climb, etc. Just not as fast or as far. If you don't make the fat guy's power super speed and have him doing summersaults there shouldn't be any conflict.

And think about Professor Charles Xavier - he's in a wheel chair which is much more limiting than fat - unless its truely extreme obesity. I'm sure 100 pounds of fat wouldn't slow superman down at all - its just the mental image of a fat guy moving fast and with agility that seems less realistic than a guy flying around picking up trucks.

The_Pyre
2006-06-07, 05:32 AM
Two words:

The Blob.

'Nuff said. ;D

Baron
2006-06-07, 06:28 AM
Baron Von Mod: We've dipped into Religion, had a side order of politics and garnished with some comments that are edging towards being insulting to those concerned.

If the topic strays again, I'll lock it.

Ing
2006-06-07, 08:30 AM
most "super" heros are in tip physical conditioning because of the strains and stress the job inheriently puts on their body. its not that overwieght people can't move around, its that they can't move around as well as a fit person...which puts them at a disadvange against ninjas pirartes, killer robots etc. not trying to be mean, but it is rather obvious that wider girth makes you a much easier target for bullets

and this would also present a paradox. if u want an overweight superhero, likely the high physical demand from heroing, would add additionaly stress to the body and cause them to loose weight! realisticly a fat superhero is going to either quickly get in shape.

now there are some cases like the Blob where its their 'power' but that might even be viewed as more insulting....however i can see Bruce Banner as overweight, i mean what's itmatter if Hulk has a gut? he's still the Hulk?.

CelestialStick
2006-06-07, 10:54 PM
This is a very cool thread. My compliments to everybody involved. Things heated up for a while, but now everyting is all nice and civilized again. I hope the mod's won't shut this down for touching on real world religion and sexuality.

But back on the topic. Fundamentalist ultimately means the same in religion and in philosophy. A fundamentalist takes some things as fundamental truths. Some things are seen as self-evidently true, and they are used as the building blocks of a worldview.

A fundamentalist christian conciders the existance of God (and Jesus) as fundaments (and some other christian beliefs as well usually) and his/her worldview springs from these things. This makes rational discussion with an atheist or an agnostic very difficult for these people (just an observation).

Actually people who call themselves fundamentalist Christians believe that the Bible (both Old and New Testaments) is the literal, unexpurgated Word of God. That's different from merely believing that some things are self-evident.





It wouldn't be an issue, since it's only performed on a baby boy, never on an adult. At least to my knowledge, which is pretty good, since I'm Jewish.
I am too. If someone converts as an adult and isn't already circumsized then he gets circumsized as an adult. Otherwise it's done to Jewish boys in infancy.



My friend keeps talking about a superhero called the Hebrew Hammer. Does anyone know where that's from? I had never heard about it except from him... and he sounds hilarious...
The Hebrew Hammer
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DVD cover

The Hebrew Hammer is a film that was released in 2003. It stars Adam Goldberg, Judy Greer, Andy ****, Mario Van Peebles, and Peter Coyote. The plot concerns a Jewish superhero known as The Hebrew Hammer who must save Hanukkah from an evil Santa Claus who wants to destroy Hanukkah and make everyone celebrate Christmas. The film is set up as a parody of blaxploitation films (Melvin Van Peebles even appears in it, as "Sweetback"). Director Jonathan Kesselman has jokingly dubbed it the first "Jewsploitation" or Jewish exploitation film ever.

The film premiered at the Sundance Film Festival, and appeared at several other film festivals, Jewish and otherwise, during 2003. It had a limited theatrical run in late 2003, but the majority of its viewings came from a series of showings on Comedy Central in December of that year. This version of the movie was edited for television: all profanities were bleeped, and some scenes were cut. The DVD, released on November 16, 2004), contains the uncut version, which is rated R.

There's a whole plot spoiler there if you want to know more.

Ing
2006-06-11, 05:57 PM
Then agian...maybe they are making Batgirl a lesbian too

evidence exibit L

http://www.superdickery.com/seduction/85.html

Artisan
2006-06-11, 07:00 PM
Hmmm...wasn't BAtwoman brought in orginally to say 'hey, BAtman's not gay!'

Now bringing her in as a lesbian...

*Sniff* Do you small that? That's IRONY

Ing
2006-06-11, 07:19 PM
that's true...though why they felt they needed a leather wearing crime fighter to prove he wasn't gay is beyond me.

what was she hired to investigate and find evidence of Bruce Wayne's sexual prefrence?

"Batgirl and the Case of the Gayward Ward"