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CelestialStick
2006-06-02, 02:05 PM
Ok, we all know that Superman has superspeed which he could use to defeat Batman, but since he's so powerful the authors rarely have him use it. Now Flash, on the other hand, always uses his superspeed, because that's pretty much his only superpower. (He has the ability to withstand the friction of moving so quickly, but does that give him, for instance, immunity to all heat?) So Flash could zip in and take out Batman before Batman would even know he was there. Is there any way Batman could win this match?

Idiotbox90
2006-06-02, 02:15 PM
Everyone say it with me: Preparation!

Dawnstrider_Moogle
2006-06-02, 02:20 PM
Gotta be Flash, because the only contingency Batman came up with was really stupid. Shoot him with a nanite or whatever that'll give him a seizure, but only if he's already moving at light speed. I have no idea how or why that worked - when he tried that on the "Crime Syndikate" Flash he just laughed and punched Bats in the face, IIRC.

CelestialStick
2006-06-02, 02:24 PM
Everyone say it with me: Preparation!

LOL!



Gotta be Flash, because the only contingency Batman came up with was really stupid. Shoot him with a nanite or whatever that'll give him a seizure, but only if he's already moving at light speed. I have no idea how or why that worked - when he tried that on the "Crime Syndikate" Flash he just laughed and punched Bats in the face, IIRC.

LOL. That sound about right, too.

Is "Crime Syndikate" the name of a comic book, an episode of a cartoon series, or what?

I could see maybe that if Batman had gone rogue, and Flash didn't know it, Batman might get off a shot while Flash's back was turned. If Flash knows he's in for a fight, however, I don't see how Batman could ever tag him.

chibibar
2006-06-02, 02:41 PM
I think Flash will win. The only way Batman wins if he gets a jump on Flash.

If it is a straight up fight.... Flash wins :) he just move so fast.

Holy_Knight
2006-06-02, 02:59 PM
"If Batman has time to develop and execute a plan, he wins. If it's just a straight up fight, Flash wins." ;D

BonHed
2006-06-02, 03:46 PM
It depends, I guess, on which Batman you are talking about. The Darknight version, as depicted by Frank Miller and Grant Morrisson (among others), would wipe the floor with the Flash. Why? Because there is no way that he would allow it to be a straight up fight. That Batman does not play fair. He would have a contingency plan in place, just in case he had to take the Flash down. I believe that came up in a JLA comic, even. Someone hacked Batman's files, and stole his plans for defeating each member of the JLA, should that ever be necessary. Hilarity ensued when they discovered the author of those files...

And let's not forget how he defeated Superman, in Miller's "Darknight Returns" series, I think. Green Arrow + Kryptonite + Surprise. That's how he works.

And Superman would never beat the Flash in a race. Why? Because he would let the Flash win. Superman doesn't need to prove to anyone that he is super, it's in his name. He is super at everything. Including being modest and respectful of his teamates/friends. So he would allow the Flash to beat him in a race, without, of course, letting him KNOW that he had held back. It's important for the Flash to be the fastest man alive, so it is important to Superman to let the Flash be just that.

Again, this does depend upon the version of the character and who is writing him. Different writers have shown to have vastly different ideas about the characters, and what kind of story the writer is trying to tell.

These are, of course, my opinions, and I totally expect a large number of people to curse and scream and yell at their monitors as they read this. Don't wear your fingers down to bloody stumps in your anger to type a response, it isn't worth it. =)

Skyserpent
2006-06-02, 07:06 PM
Supes is pretty damn fast, I'll give him that...


But technically he's not a "man" he's an alien, so he doesn't quite qualify...

Solmage
2006-06-02, 07:22 PM
It depends, I guess, on which Batman you are talking about. *The Darknight version, as depicted by Frank Miller and Grant Morrisson (among others), would wipe the floor with the Flash. *Why? *Because there is no way that he would allow it to be a straight up fight. *That Batman does not play fair. *He would have a contingency plan in place, just in case he had to take the Flash down. *I believe that came up in a JLA comic, even. *Someone hacked Batman's files, and stole his plans for defeating each member of the JLA, should that ever be necessary. *Hilarity ensued when they discovered the author of those files...

And let's not forget how he defeated Superman, in Miller's "Darknight Returns" series, I think. *Green Arrow + Kryptonite + Surprise. *That's how he works.

And Superman would never beat the Flash in a race. *Why? *Because he would let the Flash win. *Superman doesn't need to prove to anyone that he is super, it's in his name. *He is super at everything. *Including being modest and respectful of his teamates/friends. *So he would allow the Flash to beat him in a race, without, of course, letting him KNOW that he had held back. *It's important for the Flash to be the fastest man alive, so it is important to Superman to let the Flash be just that.

Again, this does depend upon the version of the character and who is writing him. *Different writers have shown to have vastly different ideas about the characters, and what kind of story the writer is trying to tell.

These are, of course, my opinions, and I totally expect a large number of people to curse and scream and yell at their monitors as they read this. *Don't wear your fingers down to bloody stumps in your anger to type a response, it isn't worth it. *=)

Hmmm, I'd have to agree with this. He'd have a series of contingency plans on how to defeat him/escape/etc.

Incidentally I loved the darknight returns, both in how Superman was very super but NOT invulnerable (the nuclear explosion) and how Batman is all about strategy. "You would need a lifetime and a fortune to develop synthetic (man-made) kryptonite: thankfully, I had both."

Holy_Knight
2006-06-03, 12:19 AM
It depends, I guess, on which Batman you are talking about. *The Darknight version, as depicted by Frank Miller and Grant Morrisson (among others), would wipe the floor with the Flash. *Why? *Because there is no way that he would allow it to be a straight up fight. *That Batman does not play fair. *He would have a contingency plan in place, just in case he had to take the Flash down. *I believe that came up in a JLA comic, even. *Someone hacked Batman's files, and stole his plans for defeating each member of the JLA, should that ever be necessary. *Hilarity ensued when they discovered the author of those files...
Yep, that's what I was referring to at one point in part of the "Batman vs. Superman" debate (although I don't think it was in the thread of that name). Here's something related to that.

True Story:

My college roommate and I were debating about whether Batman was right or wrong to have developed those plans in the first place. I was arguing that he was right, to which my roommate said:

Roommate: Oh, come on--so how about this for an analogy: would you ever develop plans of how to take out me, and all the rest of our friends?"

Me: You're damn right I would!

--He told me later that he half-expected me to open a drawer and pull the plans out right then! This is also the same guy who in another later conversation told me that he thought I was dangerously similar to Ozymandias...

Another interesting component to our relationship is that Superman is his favorite comic character, and Batman is mine. I think we tend to have that kind of relationship in a lot of ways...

Tarlonniel
2006-06-03, 12:27 AM
Hmmm... does Batman have a contingency plan for taking out himself? ;)

sun_tzu
2006-06-03, 04:44 AM
Hmmm... does Batman have a contingency plan for taking out himself? ;)

Not sure, but I think not.
Thing is, Batman's a control freak. It might be argued that the only person he really trusts to handle things is himself.

Holy_Knight
2006-06-03, 04:52 AM
Hmmm... does Batman have a contingency plan for taking out himself? *;)
Probably not, since if it ever needed to be used, he wouldn't be willing to do it anymore.




Not sure, but I think not.
Thing is, Batman's a control freak. It might be argued that the only person he really trusts to handle things is himself.
"It might be argued"? You're winning understatement of the year award for that one. ;)

sun_tzu
2006-06-03, 10:26 AM
Probably not, since if it ever needed to be used, he wouldn't be willing to do it anymore.

"It might be argued"? You're winning understatement of the year award for that one. ;)
Well, I figure he DOES work with teammates, even if the relationships are very tense...

Steward
2006-06-03, 03:48 PM
Well, I figure he DOES work with teammates, even if the relationships are very tense...

Not very well, since he has accessible plans on how to kill all of them. (That's 'kill', not 'incapacitate'.)

CelestialStick
2006-06-03, 04:10 PM
Not very well, since he has accessible plans on how to kill all of them. (That's 'kill', not 'incapacitate'.)
One of the logical fallacies of the people who say that "if Batman has time to plan, he wins" is that just because Batman cooks up some way to win means it works.

There's a reason why these people keep quoting Batman with his hands around Superman's throught: they have an inferiority complex. Superman is hands down one of the most powerful superheroes of all time, super, as someone said above, at, if not all things, at least very many. We all know that Superman could kill Batman with a flick of his finger.

Getting back to the topic, I'd like to hear something specific about how Batman could beat the Flash on his own (no help from Green Arrow or others). If nobody can come up with anything better than the plan so ridiculous that even Holy_Knight, who likes Batman the best, rejected as ridiculous, then I'll conclude that Batman cannot in fact come up with anything to beat the Flash.

Well first I assume that Flash is stupid, weak and ineffectual, and then that Batman is omniscent and omnipotent. Then it's easy: I don't even have to think; I just chant the mantra.

The funny thing is that I've always liked Batman a great deal and never particularly cared for the Flash. (The smart-alecky Flash of JL/JLU is pretty entertaining, but mostly unwittingly.:D) Can't someone come up with something better than the pathetic, lazy "if Batman has time to prepare he wins?"

Oh, now that it's been revealed that to get his arms around Superman's throat Batman had to have the help of Green Arrow, kryptonite, and a nuclear blast, I say "shame on you" for being a big fat bunch of lying liars telling lies!" ;D

Tarlonniel
2006-06-03, 05:17 PM
Probably not, since if it ever needed to be used, he wouldn't be willing to do it anymore.

That's why he gives it to someone else, just like Supes gave kryptonite to him. But then we come up against that whole "trust no one but myself" attitude again. Sometimes I wonder... of all the people in (for instance) the Justice League, wouldn't the non-superpowered mortal with real psychological problems to be the one most likely to go rogue, not least likely? And if he's really "the most powerful man on earth," capable of taking down near-godlike beings, shouldn't he (or someone else) be more concerned about something like that happening? ???

Steward
2006-06-03, 05:31 PM
That's why he gives it to someone else, just like Supes gave kryptonite to him. But then we come up against that whole "trust no one but myself" attitude again. Sometimes I wonder... of all the people in (for instance) the Justice League, wouldn't the non-superpowered mortal with real psychological problems to be the one most likely to go rogue, not least likely? And if he's really "the most powerful man on earth," capable of taking down near-godlike beings, shouldn't he (or someone else) be more concerned about something like that happening? ???

Well, yeah, you would think that, but then that would imply that Batman has weaknesses, which, according to the writers, he does not. I've seen Superman, who seems to be among the sanest superheroes ever, go rogue fifty thousand times while Batman seems to never go over the edge.

(Of course, I'm biased, since I like Superman and the Flash more than Batman and think that the latter could beat Batman if the writers didn't cheat.)

sun_tzu
2006-06-03, 07:48 PM
It is possible to beat someone with super-speed.
Just wait behind a transparent plexiglass wall. When they charge at you...Collision at super-speed.
Okay, the details need work, but it's an example.

Steward
2006-06-03, 08:32 PM
It is possible to beat someone with super-speed.
Just wait behind a transparent plexiglass wall. When they charge at you...Collision at super-speed.
Okay, the details need work, but it's an example.

Assuming, of course, that they haven't the brains of a newborn calf, then that would work perfectly. Otherwise, you'd probably find yourself having Plexiglas kicked directly into your spine.

Haggis_McCrablice
2006-06-03, 09:01 PM
It is possible to beat someone with super-speed.
Just wait behind a transparent plexiglass wall. When they charge at you...Collision at super-speed.

Didn't Wile E. Coyote try that once with the Road-Runner? With hilariously disasterous results....

BonHed
2006-06-03, 10:31 PM
There's a reason why these people keep quoting Batman with his hands around Superman's throught: they have an inferiority complex. Superman is hands down one of the most powerful superheroes of all time, super, as someone said above, at, if not all things, at least very many. *We all know that Superman could kill Batman with a flick of his finger.

Getting back to the topic, I'd like to hear something specific about how Batman could beat the Flash on his own (no help from Green Arrow or others). *If nobody can come up with anything better than the plan so ridiculous that even Holy_Knight, who likes Batman the best, rejected as ridiculous, then I'll conclude that Batman cannot in fact come up with anything to beat the Flash.
*

Ahh, but the point of what I was trying to say was that Batman wouldn't let it be a fair fight. *He knows that indeed all these superpowered people could kill him easily (heck, Superman could kill him just by looking at him...). *So he uses every trick he can to survive and win. *And imagine how humiliating it would be for someone named 'Superman' to be beaten by a guy in a bat costume, who has no powers at all.

I don't have any idea how he would beat the Flash, only that he would be capable of doing so. If I had a credible plan for how it would happen, I would try my hand at writing my own comics. I just read 'em.

Brett Wong
2006-06-03, 10:34 PM
wanna know who would win in a fight between batman and the flash?


.... Chuck Norris...

as explained here

If Superman and the Flash were to have a race to the end of the universe, who would win? Chuck Norris.

Rex_Hondo
2006-06-04, 01:41 AM
A specific way Batman can beat Flash? Well, Flash isn't running around at super speed all the time. Batman sneaks up behind him while he's just standing there all unsuspecting and cracks him over the head, or more ideally, hits him at range from behind with a sleep dart/nano-tech thingie a la Tower of Babel/C-4 loaded batarang. Super speed, yes. Super hearing, no.

Flash has any warning, though, and Batman is esentially toast.

Holy_Knight
2006-06-04, 04:11 AM
There's a reason why these people keep quoting Batman with his hands around Superman's throught: they have an inferiority complex. Superman is hands down one of the most powerful superheroes of all time, super, as someone said above, at, if not all things, at least very many. We all know that Superman could kill Batman with a flick of his finger.
Come now, that's not entirely fair. Some of us who say that Batman could defeat Superman have given reasonable arguments for thinking that is so, that don't have anything to do with inferiority complexes, disliking Superman, or even disagreeing that Superman could beat Batman as well. You know that I, for instance, do like Superman as a character, think he wins in most matchups, and said that Spiderman, for one, would probably beat Batman. I think you're a little frustrated because it seems so obvious to you that Superman would win, but not everyone agrees. There are certainly bad reasons for thinking that Batman could beat Superman, but there really are also some compelling reasons to give Batman decent odds.



Getting back to the topic, I'd like to hear something specific about how Batman could beat the Flash on his own (no help from Green Arrow or others). *If nobody can come up with anything better than the plan so ridiculous that even Holy_Knight, who likes Batman the best, rejected as ridiculous, then I'll conclude that Batman cannot in fact come up with anything to beat the Flash.
While I don't doubt that I probably said some plan was ridiculous, I can't remember what it was now. Which plan are you referring to?

--Actually, there was a plan that Dawnstrider Moogle said was ridiculous, and we have the same avatar. Were you referring to that?




Oh, now that it's been revealed that to get his arms around Superman's throat Batman had to have the help of Green Arrow, kryptonite, and a nuclear blast, I say "shame on you" for being a big fat bunch of lying liars telling lies!" ;D *
Well, that was all part of Batman's plan... ;)

bluish_wolf
2006-06-04, 12:04 PM
What I want to know, if the Flash is the fastest human alive, why does he ever get hit? Can't he just dodge out of the way? Super speed means super reflexes, right?

Steward
2006-06-04, 12:17 PM
What I want to know, if the Flash is the fastest human alive, why does he ever get hit? Can't he just dodge out of the way? Super speed means super reflexes, right?

Because the Flash cannot think as fast as he can run. Yeah, he can run at the speed of light, but then again, so can 'light'. When a bad guy is shooting lasers at you, you have to be able to think faster than he can or else you'll get hit. Not only that, there's a limit to how fast he can go without needing to turn in an enclosed environment.

CelestialStick
2006-06-04, 02:04 PM
A specific way Batman can beat Flash? Well, Flash isn't running around at super speed all the time. Batman sneaks up behind him while he's just standing there all unsuspecting and cracks him over the head, or more ideally, hits him at range from behind with a sleep dart/nano-tech thingie a la Tower of Babel/C-4 loaded batarang. Super speed, yes. Super hearing, no.

Flash has any warning, though, and Batman is esentially toast.
Yes. I'm not saying that it's impossible under any circumstances for Batman to beat the Flash, but I think surprise attack is the most likely way. I don't think there's any other way really that Batman wins. And with Flash's reflexes I still have to give it to Flash to move out of the way too quickly anyway. So I'd say it's possible for Batman to win but not probable.




Come now, that's not entirely fair. Some of us who say that Batman could defeat Superman have given reasonable arguments for thinking that is so, that don't have anything to do with inferiority complexes, disliking Superman, or even disagreeing that Superman could beat Batman as well. You know that I, for instance, do like Superman as a character, think he wins in most matchups, and said that Spiderman, for one, would probably beat Batman. I think you're a little frustrated because it seems so obvious to you that Superman would win, but not everyone agrees. There are certainly bad reasons for thinking that Batman could beat Superman, but there really are also some compelling reasons to give Batman decent odds.

Actually I wasn't refering to you. I don't recall you being one of the people who repeated the "hands around your throat" quotation or said that "given time to prepare, Batman always wins," so those particular comments are definitely not directed at you. You're right though that I do feel frustrated with the people who insist that Batman automatically beats Superman. Look, Batman can barely beat Joker, or Riddler, or any of a number of other villains without superpowers. These people are all phenomenonally more vulnerable to a plethora of things than Superman, and neither kryptonite nor magic automatically kills Superman.

I'm also frustrated with the "Batman always wins" people who have been referencing a particular "canon" story in which Batman wins, while omitting that Superman first resisted a nuclear blast before Green Arrow, rather than Batman, hit Superman with weaponized kryptonite, that still didn't kill Superman. As I now understand it, then and only then, with the aid of yet more krytponite, did Batman get his hands around Superman's throat. So I think it's preposterous to say that "Batman wins if he has time to prepare" as though it's a foregone conclusion. Batman wins if:

1. He has time to prepare
2. He has weaponized kryptonite
3. He has an additional piece of kryptonite
4. He has Green Arrow or some other superhero help him
5. He, the man who eschews guns because of their killing potential, nonetheless detonates a nuke
6. Superman has no idea that Batman's out to get him
7. Superman uses no superpowers (like superspeed to dodge or deflect the arrow, or just superbreath to blow away the arrow, along with Green Arrow and Batman).

Or in other words, Batman doesn't win just because he's prepared. He needs everything in his favor, including the help of others, and then wins only if we again assume that Superman uses none of his superpowers. As I have been saying from the start, Batman can win only if he does everything right and Superman does everything wrong.

When I say that Superman can beat Batman with a flick of the finger, I mean it literally: Superman could crush Batman's skull with a flick of his finger because he's that strong. I see that people who claim that "if prepared, Batman always wins" get angry at that, but it's the literal truth, even in the current canon which some of them (not you) have made out to portray Superman as weak, ineffectual and stupid.


While I don't doubt that I probably said some plan was ridiculous, I can't remember what it was now. Which plan are you referring to?

--Actually, there was a plan that Dawnstrider Moogle said was ridiculous, and we have the same avatar. Were you referring to that?

It's possible. It was the plan to shoot Flash with nanites that would make him go into convulsions if he went fast. If, as I say above, Batman can catch Flash napping or thereabouts, it's possible of course, but unless Batman has gone rogue, or Flash is incredibly stupid, Flash doesn't stand around and let Batman shoot him with anything, especially not if Flash in the one who's gone rogue, which presumably is the only circumstance under which a non-rogue Batman uses the plan.

I recall that you thought Spiderman could beat Batman pretty easily, and perhaps you recall that I tended to think Batman could win that one, so it's not like I'm anti-Batman. Spiderman has many more vulnerabilites than Superman; indeed Spiderman has some superpowers but he's still basically a human with human vulnerabilities. So I'd say that Batman might have a decent chance to win (if prepared of course) though I could also see Spiderman cleaning his clock before he could get away. Repeatedly we've seen villains without any superpowers at all defeat Batman, where he survived only because the authors made it so--decided that the villain wanted to gloat over beating Batman rather than kill him, when any reasonable psychopath ;) in their place would have just killed him. (This probably explains some of the gloating of some of the Batman fans over Batman getting his hands around Superman's throat.) While the slavish devotion of some frequent posters to "if prepared, Batman always wins" would generally incline me against Batman, you have to remember that I've been a big Batman fan since before most of you were born, so the ridiculous Bat-deification of a few jokers ;) on this board isn't going to turn me against Batman.


Well, that was all part of Batman's plan... ;)

LOL! That's right--because Batman is himself a lying liar of a liar. ;)

Were-Sandwich
2006-06-04, 02:32 PM
Wiat, who's The Flash. The only Flash I know has a kickass theme tun by Queen.

CelestialStick
2006-06-04, 02:57 PM
Wiat, who's The Flash. The only Flash I know has a kickass theme tun by Queen.
Just as in the old days we referred to Batman as "the Batman" we also referred to Flash as "the Flash." There's a great scene in an old SNL skit with Margot Kidder as Lois Lane in which one of the other women, looking at Dan Akeroyd playing Flash in a skintight suit says, "look at the love-handles on the Flash!" I'm sure you could find references to "the Flash" in older comic books too.

Edit: You know, I love Queen, and used to run to the Queen's Greatest Hits tape, but I don't recall a Queen song named Flash.





Because the Flash cannot think as fast as he can run. Yeah, he can run at the speed of light, but then again, so can 'light'. When a bad guy is shooting lasers at you, you have to be able to think faster than he can or else you'll get hit. Not only that, there's a limit to how fast he can go without needing to turn in an enclosed environment.
If that were true Flash could never run at his full speed or he'd crash into things, He has to be able to think as fast as he can run. As far as lasers, you don't have to outrun the beam, only the arm holding the beam. You move at an angle to the beam, not along it. Unless the shooter can move his arm at the speed of light, flash can dodge the laser.

KayJay
2006-06-05, 02:53 AM
The flashes can definitely think as fast as they can run, whichy is why you get panels where they're running, and there's also thought bubbles as they're thinking at the same time. What they sometimes can't seem to do is bring their momentum to an instant halt.Of course, when they're reaching close to light speed, this is fast even for them, so it stands to reason that they would only be able to react as quickly as you or I might react when running flat out.

I think Batman's doomed though. Unless he's sitting miles away, then nukes the city flash is in, or something along those lines, then I don't see him being able to beat Flash between the seconds. This is a guy who has cleared a city of people in under a second. He's also got a lot of untouched on abilities- such as the ability to be in two places at once, out-think Supercomputers, vibrate through objects...

The only real way to defeat him would be to catch him completely unawares i.e a backstab, which was how Batman's plans took down everyone in that Tower of Babel saga. With both people knowing they're in a fight, then Batman's chances are slim at best.

mroozee
2006-06-05, 03:39 AM
With preparation, Batman could (and would) defeat the Flash. He could probably do it without preparation. Deathstroke, utilizing only a small subset of the skills that Batman possesses, worked the Flash, Green Arrow, Hawkman and other members of the JLA-lite in Identity Crisis before his attempt to control Kyle's ring cost him the victory.

Batman has defeated Superman, Captain Marvel, and Darkseid. The Flash (Wally) was terrified of him. Bats routinely sneaks up on Superman, Superboy, and pretty much everyone else. Batman also has gadgets galore - from dimensional portals to kryptonian technology to a green lantern ring.

The Flash is a broken character... but Batman goes a step beyond broken. On a bad day, Batman can lose to some pretty weak villains. But when he's on his game, no one short of Parallax or the Specter is assured a victory against him.

KayJay
2006-06-05, 04:43 AM
"Deathstroke utilising only a small subset of the skills that Batman possesses?"

I'd say that Deathstroke is at least the equal of Batman, given that he's using 90% of his brain, and his hand to hand is as good as, if not better, than someone like Batgirl's.
Preparing the battlefield as a surprise when the others don't know they're going to be facing you, and you don't know you're going to be facing them, is a VERY big advantage. Are we having a fight where one person doesn't know they are fighting the other beforehand? Because that changes things a lot, and that's what I see too much. If Deathstroke had prepared the battlefield, but everyone knew beforehand that they were facing Deathstroke, I'd wager the fight against him would go a lot differently.



Batman has defeated Superman, Captain Marvel, and Darkseid. The Flash (Wally) was terrified of him. Bats routinely sneaks up on Superman, Superboy, and pretty much everyone else. Batman also has gadgets galore - from dimensional portals to kryptonian technology to a green lantern ring.

Batman has defeated Superman? What are we referring to here? And Captain Marvel? Only time I recall him confronting Darkseid is in Superman/Batman, and that was more a out-bluffing him than a "beating".
He doesn't have a green lantern ring. He's come across one a long time ago, which he gave back to Kyle. Even if he did have one, he doesn't have a battery... Dimensional portals? Are we referring to a boom tube? How's that going to help much? You hear them from miles away :)

Korith
2006-06-05, 10:22 AM
Flash v. Batman:

Round 1

Flash moves terribly fast, lands a telling blow on Batman and sends him flying into some random crates. Batman seems to be out - he isn't even moving!

Round 2

Flash leisurely approaches batman to confirm that it only took one hit to kill him. Poor flash, you've been tricked!

Round 3

A sound in the distance distracts Flash - he goes to check it out. Finding that there was nothing of note, he returns to check on the Batman - who is missing!

Round 4

Flash takes advantage of his super speed to check every hiding place in the room - but doesn't account for the tripwire set by the Batman! He flies into a random crate himself, and attempts to use his super speed to break out.

Round 5

Batman uses an explosive batarang on the crate which the Flash is trapped in. Bye-bye, Flash.


The End

KayJay
2006-06-05, 11:24 AM
Flash v. Batman:

Round 1

Flash moves terribly fast, lands a telling blow on Batman and sends him flying into some random crates. Batman seems to be out - he isn't even moving!

Round 2

Flash leisurely approaches batman to confirm that it only took one hit to kill him. Poor flash, you've been tricked!

Round 3

A sound in the distance distracts Flash - he goes to check it out. Finding that there was nothing of note, he returns to check on the Batman - who is missing!

Round 4

Flash takes advantage of his super speed to check every hiding place in the room - but doesn't account for the tripwire set by the Batman! He flies into a random crate himself, and attempts to use his super speed to break out.

Round 5

Batman uses an explosive batarang on the crate which the Flash is trapped in. Bye-bye, Flash.


The End
Round 2:
How exactly did Flash manage to not knock out Batman?
Round 3:
When Flash "goes to see something" you literally have less than a second to get out of there. This'd probably hold true even if the explosion was a mile away.
Round 4:
The speedforce shield he generates most likely protects him and breaks the wire. Otherwise, he would probably lose his leg from the trip wire, given his speed, but it doesn't work out like that.

Round 5:
How on earth did the batarang get to the box before flash got out? you are aware how fast he is compared to how slow a batarang moves? Even if it did connect, Flash has an ungodly heal factor due to his high metabolism- I doubt that would finish him by any means.

The end indeed- once Batman has shown himself, then there's not really much chance of him getting into cover during the split seconds before he is pummeled into unconsciousness. Or will he just feign it again ::)

mroozee
2006-06-05, 11:56 AM
Deathstroke is probably the closest thing to Batman as there is in DC. Even if Deathstroke is slightly better at hand to hand, the skills he displayed are only a subset of those that Batman possesses. Green Arrow's thoughts were the clearest point on the matter ("it's like fighting against Bruce").

I can think of 3 instances where Batman has defeated Superman: DKR, the (first) Wave-Rider arc, and the rogue Superman (after he kills the 3 alternate universe kryptonians). Batman defeated Captain Marvel by playing a recording of Billy saying "Shazaam!" that transformed him back (sorry, don't have the reference). The Batman/Superman arc is where I claim he defeated Darkseid. Was it a Marques of Queensbury fight? No. But Batman's goals were achieved and Darkseid's were thwarted... THAT is the essence of victory.

Batman has shown dimensional portals of his own design in the JLA cartoon as well as some pre-Crisis comics. I haven't seen him use any of them recently, though. You are right that he returned the ring (but I assume he studied it and improved upon the design :P).

If Batman is prepared, he WILL control the battlefield (as did Deathstroke). His power level may be lower than just about everyone else, but his win% is amazing - particularly against people he has faced before or against those he has had the opportunity to study.

sun_tzu
2006-06-05, 12:09 PM
Deathstroke is probably the closest thing to Batman as there is in DC. Even if Deathstroke is slightly better at hand to hand, the skills he displayed are only a subset of those that Batman possesses. Green Arrow's thoughts were the clearest point on the matter ("it's like fighting against Bruce").

I can think of 3 instances where Batman has defeated Superman: DKR, the (first) Wave-Rider arc, and the rogue Superman (after he kills the 3 alternate universe kryptonians). Batman defeated Captain Marvel by playing a recording of Billy saying "Shazaam!" that transformed him back (sorry, don't have the reference). The Batman/Superman arc is where I claim he defeated Darkseid. Was it a Marques of Queensbury fight? No. But Batman's goals were achieved and Darkseid's were thwarted... THAT is the essence of victory.

Batman has shown dimensional portals of his own design in the JLA cartoon as well as some pre-Crisis comics. I haven't seen him use any of them recently, though. You are right that he returned the ring (but I assume he studied it and improved upon the design :P).

If Batman is prepared, he WILL control the battlefield (as did Deathstroke). His power level may be lower than just about everyone else, but his win% is amazing - particularly against people he has faced before or against those he has had the opportunity to study.


I'm willing to believe Batman outwitted Darkseid, but not that he improved upon the design of a Green Lantern ring. Battles of wits are one thing, but improving designs made by a civilization centuries ahead of us technologically is not something I believe to be within his abilities. He's not Reed Richards.

KayJay
2006-06-05, 12:45 PM
Deathstroke is probably the closest thing to Batman as there is in DC. Even if Deathstroke is slightly better at hand to hand, the skills he displayed are only a subset of those that Batman possesses. Green Arrow's thoughts were the clearest point on the matter ("it's like fighting against Bruce").

Slightly? ::)



I can think of 3 instances where Batman has defeated Superman: DKR, the (first) Wave-Rider arc, and the rogue Superman (after he kills the 3 alternate universe kryptonians). Batman defeated Captain Marvel by playing a recording of Billy saying "Shazaam!" that transformed him back (sorry, don't have the reference). The Batman/Superman arc is where I claim he defeated Darkseid. Was it a Marques of Queensbury fight? No. But Batman's goals were achieved and Darkseid's were thwarted... THAT is the essence of victory.

The Batman that did that to Captain Marvel wasn't batman at all- that was Robin. Also, it was Captain Marvel junior as I recall.
I wouldn't class the Darkseid thing a victory, as he decided to return later to destroy Kara (and only failed to do so when she was rescued an instant before). If he hadn't done this, and had a clear plan on what to do next, then I might have classed this as a victory (despite being beaten to a bloody pulp).



Batman has shown dimensional portals of his own design in the JLA cartoon as well as some pre-Crisis comics. I haven't seen him use any of them recently, though. You are right that he returned the ring (but I assume he studied it and improved upon the design :P).

Pre-crisis and cartoon are both non-canon. You aren't really going to be able to compare either of them very accurately with anything, as they're just two different beasts.



If Batman is prepared, he WILL control the battlefield (as did Deathstroke). His power level may be lower than just about everyone else, but his win% is amazing - particularly against people he has faced before or against those he has had the opportunity to study.
Like I said, it wasn't so much that he was prepared, it was that noone else was AT ALL. Just recently, we've seen Ollie completely take down Deathstroke through preparation of the environment, so it's not undoable, when your opponent doesn't know what he's up against. Most people do know what they're up against when we talk about Batman, and what's more, if they are in an even fight with Batman, then they would know about it, rather than to say only one of them knew about the fight.

mroozee
2006-06-05, 01:17 PM
The best and easiest way to determine who would win between Batman and the Flash is to look at how they have done against each other recently. This information doesn't seem to exist.

The next best thing is to look at how each has done against similar adversaries. Who are the most similar to Batman? Deathstroke, Nightwing, Mr. Terrific, the other Robins, Ras al Ghul. Who are the most similar to the Flash? The other Flashes, Professor Zoom, the Top, Owen Mercer.

To my knowledge, Batman has not recently fought any of those similar to the Flash. There have been two recent stories, however, where Batman-like characters have defeated the Flash and company: Deathstroke v. the JLA (who is described by Green Arrow as fighting like Batman) and Ras al Ghul v. the JLA using the Batman protocols. Both times, the Flash gets worked.

Where is the history of the Flash winning against Batman-level foes? A recent issue of the Outsiders has a young (and much slower) Jay Garrick surprising Tim Drake (hardly Bruce Wayne) before his teammates take him down. We don't have any other details on this version of the Flash, unfortunately.

The other frequently used comparison is the common opponent. This is not so useful in comics, however. Aunt May with a rock of Kryptonite defeats Superman. Superman beats Daredevil. Daredevil beats Aunt May with a rock of Kryptonite. This CAN be used to show that one character MIGHT be able to overcome huge power differences, though. Doom beat (sort of) the Beyonder. No matter who you are, if you ignore Doom, you are in trouble. This is the only way that Batman v. Major powers is useful, and it's not very.

It's one thing to say, "If I were the Flash, I would fight like this or that and Batman would lose". It's quite another to say, "The recent comic book case history supports the Flash over Batman position". Individuals have weaknesses (Superman has kryptonite, Batman has issues about killing, the Flash is afraid of Batman, etc.) From what I've seen recently, it looks like the Batman can take the Flash. But I'm totally open to anyone else's arguments. What has happened recently to suggest that the Flash could take the Batman?

KayJay
2006-06-05, 02:22 PM
The best and easiest way to determine who would win between Batman and the Flash is to look at how they have done against each other recently. This information doesn't seem to exist.

The next best thing is to look at how each has done against similar adversaries. Who are the most similar to Batman? Deathstroke, Nightwing, Mr. Terrific, the other Robins, Ras al Ghul. Who are the most similar to the Flash? The other Flashes, Professor Zoom, the Top, Owen Mercer.

To my knowledge, Batman has not recently fought any of those similar to the Flash. There have been two recent stories, however, where Batman-like characters have defeated the Flash and company: Deathstroke v. the JLA (who is described by Green Arrow as fighting like Batman) and Ras al Ghul v. the JLA using the Batman protocols. Both times, the Flash gets worked.

Where is the history of the Flash winning against Batman-level foes? A recent issue of the Outsiders has a young (and much slower) Jay Garrick surprising Tim Drake (hardly Bruce Wayne) before his teammates take him down. We don't have any other details on this version of the Flash, unfortunately.

The other frequently used comparison is the common opponent. This is not so useful in comics, however. Aunt May with a rock of Kryptonite defeats Superman. Superman beats Daredevil. Daredevil beats Aunt May with a rock of Kryptonite. This CAN be used to show that one character MIGHT be able to overcome huge power differences, though. Doom beat (sort of) the Beyonder. No matter who you are, if you ignore Doom, you are in trouble. This is the only way that Batman v. Major powers is useful, and it's not very.

It's one thing to say, "If I were the Flash, I would fight like this or that and Batman would lose". It's quite another to say, "The recent comic book case history supports the Flash over Batman position". Individuals have weaknesses (Superman has kryptonite, Batman has issues about killing, the Flash is afraid of Batman, etc.) From what I've seen recently, it looks like the Batman can take the Flash. But I'm totally open to anyone else's arguments. What has happened recently to suggest that the Flash could take the Batman?
The fact that Batman is a human and therefore suffers from the human limitation of being able to be knocked unconscious, as well as think at human speed?
Like I said, a battle that you're prepared for and the opponent doesn't know about is a lot different from a normal battle. Apparently Green arrow can beat Deathstroke, while Deathstroke can beat Green Arrow and a bunch of JLA'ers, so there's some logical inconsistency here if you don't account for the surprise factor.
I don't rate the solutions to the JLA'ers by Batman very highly, as they all relied highly on the element that they were being sneak attacked to work. How would Batman be taken down in similar circumstances? Just something like a bullet to the chest would be the equivalent for him. It's easy to blind-side someone, which is all I saw in the tower of Babel. What chance do any of them have against a silent assassin?

I'm pretty sure Deathstroke is beyond Batman. Compare the fact that he's taken down a lot of the JLA, while we were just treated to a flashback of how he was taken down himself for the mindwipe. Deathstroke's using 90% of his brain- I think that gives him brainpower and reflexes to more than rival Batman. In fact, in the past, I do recall seeing him exhibiting reflexes sharp enough to catch the flash- but then people approaching Batgirl's level of expertise (and Deathstroke has been shown tgo be her match at least) are able to actually dodge bullets in motion apparently (actually jumping from side to side while the bullets are in the air).
I don't see much evidence that present day Flash has much fear at all for Bruce in anything other than a mocking way. He might have in the past, but then he was a lot less mature in those days, until they moved that immaturity to impulse.

KayJay
2006-06-05, 02:24 PM
Where is the history of the Flash winning against Batman-level foes? A recent issue of the Outsiders has a young (and much slower) Jay Garrick surprising Tim Drake (hardly Bruce Wayne) before his teammates take him down. We don't have any other details on this version of the Flash, unfortunately.

By the way, the "takedown" by Jay Garrick was on Nightwing and the rest of the outsiders- not Tim Drake at all. Not to mention that withoout the speed force, he wouldn't be anywhere near the speed that the Flash was- that's just his natural metahuman gene speed. Not to mention they still needed Boomerang to take him down, who is also speed-enhanced.
Edit: Doh, thought I hit "modify" but I hit "quote".

BonHed
2006-06-05, 03:15 PM
For examples of how Batman is capable of defeating superpowered villains, even though he is essentially base-line human, check out Grant Morrison's JLA, in particular, the first 4 issues.

White Martians invade earth. Martians in the DCU are very, very powerful. Basically they are Superman, with shapechanging, intangibility, and mental powers added in just for kicks. They do have a major weakness, and that is to fire.

So they attack the JLA, and wipe the floors with the team. They've got numbers and superior powers. It isn't much of a contest.

At one point, they knock out Batman. The others take longer to defeat, but defeat them they do. The leader is now gloating to Superman (or Martian Manhunter, doesn't matter, he's just gloating). Two of them say they left Batman tied up somewhere. The leader freaks, stating, "You left the most dangerous man on the planet... ALONE?" The soldiers shrug and say, "He's just one man..."

Meanwhile, Batman has singlehandedly defeated two Martians. Two beings that even Superman couldn't take down. Or Green Lantern. Or even the Flash. Batman knew their weakness, and took advantage of the fact that they thought he was weak. This is Batman's greatest "power", and has won him many, many, many battles that would otherwise have left him dead. Also, his obsessive-compulsive dedication to being the epitome of human condition, and the years he spent honing his skills till there is nothing left but instinct.

Is Batman as "powerful" as the Flash? No, not by a long shot. But is he capable of defeating the Flash? Absolutely. Can the Flash beat Batman? Absolutely. It does all depend on circumstance. Does the Flash have a reason to attack Batman completely by surprise? No. Does Batman? Heck yeah. After all, the Flash can run, well, however fast it is that he can run. If Batman were going to have to defeat him, it would have to be by surprise. If Batman felt that the Flash were a danger, he would drop him in, well, a flash.

Batman may not have superpowers like Superman or the Flash, but he is more than capable of surviving at their power levels. He would not be a member of the JLA otherwise. Yes, a bullet to the head or chest (actually, his chest is his most heavily armoured spot, espeically that nice, bright, yellow target... makes you wonder about Robin's costume, doesn't it?) will likely kill him, but the chances of anyone getting the opportunity to place that bullet in that spot are very slim.

I do like the scenario presented previously, where the Flash bops Batman one and "knocks him out". Then Bats takes the Flash by surprise later, when his guard is dropped. Bingo, Batman wins.

And yes, just as easily, the Flash can run around Batman, dodging each punch/kick/attack, and hit him a thousand times in a single second (okay, maybe not, but really fast, at any rate). No human could survive that.

So the only way that Batman could win would be by surprise. By doing anything he could to even the playing field. Because if anyone knows the power levels involved, it is going to be Batman. He is waaaaaaaay down on that list, so any advantage he can make or take, he will. And when all is said and done, Batman is going to come out on top in that situation. If he can bring an opponent down to human power level, then Batman has won; Batman is the TOP of the Human power level list.

Without his speed, Flash is fairly puny. Batman is stronger than Wally West (is that still the Flash these days?), and is a much better fighter.

Wow, that was a lot wordier than I expected. Sorry, *spam off*, this is no longer a fun conversation for me.

nothingclever
2006-06-05, 03:55 PM
I'm pretty sure somewhere it was said Deathstroke is mutiple times greater than a regular human. So like Hercules he not only has greater strength than a combination of average people but reflexes and actual speed healing etc etc.

So if he's like all around even only twice as powerful as an average person he'd be more than Batman's equal.

Also that whole 90% of his brain thing is retarded.

We already use like 90%, we just don't use it exactly all at once or at least not in the same way at the same time.

It's proven clearly regular humans have brain activity in almost all areas nearly the same time each part doing different things.

So like I hope they phrased that statement alot better rather than playing off the myth that we only use 10% of our brain and if we used more we'd have psycho powers. That's the twisted logic of scam artist psychics.

KayJay
2006-06-05, 04:04 PM
Are you sure you actually read the 4 issues of JLA you were referring to? Because I just reread them, and events didn't happen like that at all.

What actually happened was that Batman's ship crashed, and the martians said something along the lines of "Don't bother checking for his body, we can't risk the flames" while within ear-shot of the ship. From this, Batman inferred that they were martians.
He then used this knowledge to beat the martians, who weren't aware he knew about this yet. He doesn't gloat to Superman at all. Superman gloats to him about how his plans are falling apart.



Meanwhile, Batman has singlehandedly defeated two Martians. Two beings that even Superman couldn't take down. Or Green Lantern. Or even the Flash. Batman knew their weakness, and took advantage of the fact that they thought he was weak. This is Batman's greatest "power", and has won him many, many, many battles that would otherwise have left him dead. Also, his obsessive-compulsive dedication to being the epitome of human condition, and the years he spent honing his skills till there is nothing left but instinct.
Seems pretty obvious that the writer granted Batman the ability to do this more than any skill. Falling within earshot of the martians, and hearing something so blatantly useful? Beats me why they even verbally said it when they're primarily telepaths. At any rate, Superman figured it out without it blatantly being pointed out to him by plot device.



Is Batman as "powerful" as the Flash? No, not by a long shot. But is he capable of defeating the Flash? Absolutely. Can the Flash beat Batman? Absolutely. It does all depend on circumstance. Does the Flash have a reason to attack Batman completely by surprise? No. Does Batman? Heck yeah. After all, the Flash can run, well, however fast it is that he can run. If Batman were going to have to defeat him, it would have to be by surprise. If Batman felt that the Flash were a danger, he would drop him in, well, a flash.
Batman has a reason to attack Flash unprovoked? Don't think he does. In a versus fight, by definition, both should really be aware they're fighting each other, or the whole concept of it being a fight is made redundant, and you're just blind-siding the other guy, and in which case, who blind-sides the other wins.


Batman may not have superpowers like Superman or the Flash, but he is more than capable of surviving at their power levels. He would not be a member of the JLA otherwise. Yes, a bullet to the head or chest (actually, his chest is his most heavily armoured spot, espeically that nice, bright, yellow target... makes you wonder about Robin's costume, doesn't it?) will likely kill him, but the chances of anyone getting the opportunity to place that bullet in that spot are very slim.

Actually, he's on the team as a thinker/ scientist primarily, not as firepower. Traditionally, the league has "heavy hitters" and "thinkers". That's why people like blue beetle and Ralph Dibny have been on the team in the past.



I do like the scenario presented previously, where the Flash bops Batman one and "knocks him out". Then Bats takes the Flash by surprise later, when his guard is dropped. Bingo, Batman wins.
Exactly why isn't Batman really knocked out and trussed up like a turkey in one second flat, then stripped naked? I don't see how he can "pretend" to be knocked out without really being knocked out, unless you're dictating things that shouldn't be under your control. You can pretend to be knocked out if a normal inexperienced thug hits you with a plank or something, but when it's someone experienced and powerful, I'd be dubious that you can risk it.



Without his speed, Flash is fairly puny. Batman is stronger than Wally West (is that still the Flash these days?), and is a much better fighter.
Why are we referring to him without his speed? Did I miss a paragraph where he lost all his speed and it was a one vs one non-powered hand to hand fight?



So like I hope they phrased that statement alot better rather than playing off the myth that we only use 10% of our brain and if we used more we'd have psycho powers. That's the twisted logic of scam artist psychics.
It would be at once. Obviously we don't use 10% of our brain only. This was used in the initial inception of deathstroke. Not checked if it's still being used.

BonHed
2006-06-05, 04:41 PM
I missed the first issue of the comic, and I haven't read it since it was first published. Forgive me for not having a photographic memory, or a copy of the comic on hand to quote. I remembered that Batman defeated some Martians, and I remembered the gist of a line indicating that at least one of the Martians knew who Batman was and of what he was capable.

I was not indicating an excet set of circumstances. I was suggesting that Batman would not be involved in a straight up fight with the Flash. Someone else suggested a scenario, and I was commenting that I liked it.

In the scenerio outlined, Flash made the mistake of not finishing off Batman when he had the chance. But that goes into a whole different conversation, about why so many people in comics/games/movies do not fight smart. Batman does fight smart.

Certainly I cannot fake being knocked unconscious. But I'm sure any talented actor, especially one trained in combat to the degree that Batman has tained himself, would feel very confident in his abilities in doing so. Perhaps he wouldn't need to fake it, perhaps a punch from the Flash would indeed lay him out. And perhaps in the time that Flash went off to investigate some explosion, Batman would have recovered from being knocked out.

I did state that Batman is not anywhere near as powerful as the Flash. But raw power doesn't mean anything, really. If it were, wouldn't the JLA rather have Doomsday, or Darkseid, or a dozen other, more powerful people than Batman? Yes, Batman is indeed on the JLA more as a thinker. And that proves my point exactly. Batman's deductive reasoning, and ability to plan for seemingly any contingency, is the exact reason why he is on the team, and the exact reason why he is capable of surviving at the power level of the JLA.

What I said about the Flash not having superspeed is tied into the paragraph above it. He cannot hope to beat the Flash at the Flash's power level, so he would do whatever he could to bring the Flash to his level. This means somehow negating the Superspeed, or using it against the Flash. So therefore, if the Flash no longer had the use of his speed, Batman would be more than capable of defeating him in a fist-fight.

I'm not going to try to explain or suggest just how Batman might do such a thing. I merely suggest that Batman is capable of doing so. There are so many examples of how Batman has defeated superpowered people. And yes, there are just as many examples of Batman getting his butt handed to him with a side of whup-ass. Then what usually happens? Batman crawls away, licks his wounds, plans his vengance, and executes it flawlessly, defeating said superpowered person. Note that I did say usually. Nothing is ever absolute.

nothingclever
2006-06-05, 05:20 PM
I really don't see the point in agueing about who would win when to be honest in a real fight where both fighters know the other is out to kill him and have say ten feet distance between them, Flash wins by default.

Rather than saying things like "Batman wins because Flash is too dumb to check to see if he's dead and punch him anyways just in case" why not assume each one is acting equally intelligent with the same thought processes in the scenario.

If both are determined to kill the other dead, totally clearly dead and they are standing a few paces apart western shoot out style Flash wins. Yo be even more specific let's say an actual bell or gong goes off to sound the beginning of the fight.

Once that happens Flash charges Batman and inevitable hits him with a flurry of blows sending him flying and proceeds to kick hit stomp punch etc Batman while he's down.

Flash wins.

Saying "Oh well Flash understimates him and Batman wins" is stupid just like "If Batman prepares he wins" because if the any opposing character had the same benefits they'd most likely win too.

Beleriphon
2006-06-05, 05:49 PM
Thats why these are silly. If Batman has a chance to enact whatever plan he's concoted to lure his opponent into a trap, he wins. Otherwise the superpowered guy standing across from him wins.

If you want fun, we should have things like Batman vs Cyclops, or Batman vs Pyro. Both are opponents would be a human level of physical skill, but one still have super powers, just not Superman level powers.

mroozee
2006-06-05, 06:12 PM
Batman and Deathstroke are awfully close to equal. DS beat Bats after an epic fight in Deathstroke #7. Batman follows this up with a victory over DS in Detective Comics #710. So far as I know, they haven't fought one on one since. In any case, they are close enough in ability to not make a difference when compared to the Flash.

Now, back to the Flash v. Batman...

I think Batman HAS prepared to defeat the Flash (and every other cape - living or dead - in the DCU). Everything he sees or hears from the JLA'ers is filed away as an "in case of emergency" file. Further, he can analogize the weaknesses of one person to another (like Barry Allen to Wally West). Further still, he has the intellect to find weaknesses that the victim is unaware of. The result is that when he needs to utilize something obscure against someone with a name, he can.

It comes down to the particular circumstances when Bats fights most super-powered guys - whoever ambushes the other first, wins. But when you're talking about Batman and someone he knows, it is ALWAYS an ambush. I think the earlier Flashes understood this - which is why they were always nervous around Bruce.

Tarlonniel
2006-06-05, 06:45 PM
So....

Whoever ambushes the other first, wins.
If Batman knows his opponent, it's always an ambush.

Therefore, by this logic, Batman always wins. Even without preparation time. Even without anything. Against everyone he "knows."

Except Joker, Penguin, Riddler, Bane, Catwoman, and all the other recurring villains in his (non-superpowered!) rogue gallery.

Right.

nothingclever
2006-06-05, 07:37 PM
So....

Whoever ambushes the other first, wins.
If Batman knows his opponent, it's always an ambush.

Therefore, by this logic, Batman always wins. Even without preparation time. Even without anything. Against everyone he "knows."

Except Joker, Penguin, Riddler, Bane, Catwoman, and all the other recurring villains in his (non-superpowered!) rogue gallery.

Right.
You seem to be catching on young grasshopper...

Tarlonniel
2006-06-05, 07:58 PM
:-/

Okay, I'm buying Batman: from the 30's to the 70's, so I can read it and restore my love of Batman which these modern versions keep slowly destroying...

mroozee
2006-06-05, 08:22 PM
Whoever ambushes the other first, wins.
If Batman knows his opponent, it's always an ambush.


With some exceptions, yes. Specter and Parallax are probably too powerful for Batman regardless. Bruce has also stated that while he can just wing it against the others in the JLA, Superman requires preparation.



Therefore, by this logic, Batman always wins. Even without preparation time. Even without anything. Against everyone he "knows."


The preparation time comes from his interaction with the target and this may well take time. As part of his preparation, he builds gadgets that he carries around with him. You are right to put "knows" in quotes... the degree to which Bats understands his opponent is critical. I would also say that Bruce assumes a level of personal competency in his plans. That is, if he is severely injured fighting Bizarro, his preparations might not be sufficient at that point to stop Captain Atom.



Except Joker, Penguin, Riddler, Bane, Catwoman, and all the other recurring villains in his (non-superpowered!) rogue gallery.

Right.

The Joker is an unusual (perhaps unique) exception in that he may be someone who cannot be rationally analyzed. The Penguin and the Riddler are constantly beaten by the Bat (who neither kills them nor controls Arkham's security). Catwoman's success over Batman is due to Bruce's emotional attachment to her (similar to Hush). After losing to Bane in Knightfall, Bruce recovers and takes him down in Detective Comics #701.

Steward
2006-06-05, 09:05 PM
Except Joker, Penguin, Riddler, Bane, Catwoman, and all the other recurring villains in his (non-superpowered!) rogue gallery.

Joker - gets beaten all the time by Batman, as well as Penguin and the Riddler. Bane has won maybe one time and only because he was absolutely brilliant. Catwoman only wins because she knows how to get to him, and he can still take her out if he really needed to.

That is, the Rogues' Gallery was never meant to be an overpowering challenge to any superhero used to fighting them.

Tarlonniel
2006-06-05, 09:10 PM
The preparation time comes from his interaction with the target and this may well take time. *As part of his preparation, he builds gadgets that he carries around with him....*I would also say that Bruce assumes a level of personal competency in his plans.

In essence, then, Batman needs:
a) time to study his opponent
b) time to plan (i. e. some indeterminate amount of advance warning)
c) in many cases, a gadget to negate his opponents' strengths or exploit his/her weaknesses
* * i) access to said gadget
* * ii) enough time to access said gadget
d) to be physically and mentally sound

I'd also say he needs some amount of control over where the battle takes place. If he doesn't have one or all of these, he can and has been beaten. Even with all of these, he has been beaten. And if we're being fair by also giving his opponent all these things, the chances of his being beaten increase even more.


The Penguin and the Riddler are constantly beaten by the Bat

Joker - gets beaten all the time by Batman

But he's also been (temporarily) defeated by them, as well as others, and only escaped due to luck or outside help. Which - again - if he has access to, his opponent should also have access to.


After losing to Bane in Knightfall, Bruce recovers and takes him down in Detective Comics #701.

Only because Bane doesn't kill him. Which he could have, very easily - I'd say that's unquestionably a loss. And not to any superpowered being, either. Not even to someone on his proclaimed level of super-tactical and super-psychological brilliance.

It seems to me that - as others here have said - Batman only wins if things are rather heavily unbalanced in his favor. And while, yes, making things that way is essentially his superpower, I think in a "vs" fight the opponents are supposed to start out on even ground. So he should pretty much lose.

Steward
2006-06-05, 09:27 PM
I never said that Batman could defeat the Flash. I merely said that he had an advantage over his ROGUES GALLERY since he fights them again and again with more resources that they could possibly muster at the same rate. The Flash isn't a member of his Rogues Gallery so he has no reason to get a complete drop on him.

Tarlonniel
2006-06-05, 09:38 PM
I merely said that he had an advantage over his ROGUES GALLERY since he fights them again and again with more resources that they could possibly muster at the same rate.

Ah, okay. I guess I don't disagree with you. I was just trying to counteract the "Batman autowins as long as he has x, y, and z" argument by pointing out that he's had x, y and z against some villains, and been stymied anyway. Temporarily, of course - what would be the fun otherwise? ;)

Ian
2006-06-05, 09:55 PM
In the trade paperback for the Dark Night Returns, there's a script for one of the original write-ups that they wanted to do with the story.

In this version, Superman pretty much lays Batman out with one punch, even after the nuclear blast, the kryptonite and the electrically-powered exoskeleton.

Batman has him down at one point, and he starts to walk away, but then his sweat turns cold. He sees the sun come out through the clouds. He doesn't even have to turn around to know that Superman is back up and without a scratch on him. Batman has broken ribs, his hands are broken even with the exoskeleton to cushion them when hitting Superman, and he's missing several teeth. He even tries shooting Superman for old time's sake, watching the bullets bounce off his chest. Then there's a blur and he's hit with an impact that he can only describe as what being hit by a speeding freight train would be like, and he goes crashing through several walls.

When he finally comes to a stop, he's pretty much got every bone in his body broken. He looks up to see Superman standing over him, and then his heart stops.

Clearly, they weren't going to use this version because the fan-base would have been in an uproar, but it goes a long way to showing that these match-ups are clearly decided by the bias of the writer and what the editors will allow.

Tarlonniel
2006-06-05, 10:15 PM
Yeah, even I like the "my hand at your throat" outcome better than that one. To be honest, I also sort of like the idea that it's possible for Batman, under the right circumstances, to take down (almost) anyone and anything. If Superman goes rogue, I want Bats to be able to stop him.

But I don't like the auto-win mentality sometimes evident in these threads. And I also don't like the ultra-paranoid, trust no-one mentality which Bats has developed along with his take-down powers. I preferred the Batman who could be good friends with Superman instead of an uneasy ally. Ah well... YMMV, obviously.

Holy_Knight
2006-06-05, 11:47 PM
It seems to me that - as others here have said - Batman only wins if things are rather heavily unbalanced in his favor. And while, yes, making things that way is essentially his superpower, I think in a "vs" fight the opponents are supposed to start out on even ground. So he should pretty much lose.
I disagree with this sentiment, because I think there's something extremely important that a lot of people are forgetting. Namely, Batman's mindset. He knows that he's mortal. He knows that most other heroes could very quickly and easily dispatch him in a straightup fight. Because of that, here is what is constantly going through his mind:

"What if this superpowered being went rogue, and the only thing standing between them and apocalypse-level destruction of the world was me?"

That's always a concern for Batman, and because it's a real option, he has to always be prepared for it. Thus, he always (as much as he can) has contingency plans in place in case of that very possibility. This doesn't mean that these plans have no chance of failure, or that Batman is unbeatable. What it does mean is that it's not a reasonable to say a "normal" battle is something like Batman and whomever he's fighting both step into a ring and see who's still standing at the end. A fight against Batman is in most cases going to be a fight against whatever emergency plan he has, to the extent to that he has or has not been able to adequately set it up in the first place, and execute it once he becomes aware that it's necessary. Because he's rightly so worried about the power levels of superpowered beings, he's going to have as much of a countermeasure to them as he can set up to begin with.

So while it's wrong to say "Batman always wins if he has enough time to plan", it's also wrong to think that the existence of a plan or an "ambush attack", as you guys were putting it, is necessarily unfair. When you consider Batman's justified caution and paranoia, you can appreciate why in a lot of cases he still does have a reasonable chance against vastly more powerful beings.

Beleriphon
2006-06-06, 12:02 AM
So while it's wrong to say "Batman always wins if he has enough time to plan", it's also wrong to think that the existence of a plan or an "ambush attack", as you guys were putting it, is necessarily unfair. *When you consider Batman's justified caution and paranoia, you can appreciate why in a lot of cases he still does have a reasonable chance against vastly more powerful beings.

Beyond capitalism paranoia is what keeps Batman alive. Its also what makes him a total nut case. He firmly believes that he is the only one that can stop crime in Gotham, and to a smaller extent the rest of the world. I also know that Batman and Superman are friends, but neither one really knows what the other will do, or what would push them over the edge. For Batman he's already on the verge of becoming like the half the inmates at Arkham, and Superman is so powerful that it would easy for him to justify to use his power to forece other into submission. That neither of them do is a testament to their character, but for both Bats and Supes its a really issue that both have to take into consideration.

As I've already mentioned, and other people backed up, in a straight out boxing ring style fight Batman loses against most people. He could concievably win against magic users like Zantana by virture of the fact that he does have a bag of standard tricks that should give him an advantage in most cases.

KayJay
2006-06-06, 02:31 AM
Didn't Batman stop keeping files on everyone after the Tower of Babel business anyway? (and even in this case, then he would only have files on all the JLA'ers).

There were large trust issues once that file got out, so I don't think Bruce would risk it again personally. I've not seen him have contingency plans for many of his hero friends... Or for his rogues gallery, which he tends to just pummel into submission.

Holy_Knight
2006-06-06, 03:31 AM
Didn't Batman stop keeping files on everyone after the Tower of Babel business anyway? (and even in this case, then he would only have files on all the JLA'ers).
I don't know, sadly I haven't been able to keep up with comics much at this stage in my life. But I'll go on record as saying he ought to still keep them.

...With better security, of course.

KayJay
2006-06-06, 04:18 AM
I think his next response against the threat of people going rogue was meant to be brother eye.... That didn't really work out as planned either :) Question is, will he bother a third time, when the others failed so miserably? (Noone did go rogue, and instead it was used against the heroes by their enemies.)

Holy_Knight
2006-06-06, 04:28 AM
I think his next response against the threat of people going rogue was meant to be brother eye.... That didn't really work out as planned either :) Question is, will he bother a third time, when the others failed so miserably? (Noone did go rogue, and instead it was used against the heroes by their enemies.)
I don't know, and while I haven't been able to read about the Brother Eye thing, if what I heard is true, I'm a bit annoyed at how they worte the scenario. It sounded like Batman made some ridiculous lapses in judgment about security, to the extent that it didn't seem like a realistic kind of mistake for him to make. I could be misinformed, since this is just based on what a friend has told me about it, but it sounded like something that no one with any sense would fall into, let alone someone with as much intelligence and forethought as Batman. I hope he comes up with another contingency system that doesn't get compromised.

..But what would be cool is if he made a fake system and "accidentally" left it vulnerable, as a means of setting an elaborate trap for a villain. That could be a cool story.

Tarlonniel
2006-06-06, 04:40 AM
I also know that Batman and Superman are friends...

Are they still? I really have no idea how the two view each other in current continuity. From watching Justice League Unlimited I gathered that there was respect, certainly, but not much else (at least on Batman's part). Of course the show's not canon, but from what I've heard around here it was pretty close.

Holy_Knight
2006-06-06, 04:58 AM
Are they still? I really have no idea how the two view each other in current continuity. From watching Justice League Unlimited I gathered that there was respect, certainly, but not much else (at least on Batman's part). Of course the show's not canon, but from what I've heard around here it was pretty close.
I think they probably are. Superman seems to consider Batman a friend, and Batman would probably include Clark on the very short list of people he would consider calling friends and/or at least sort of trust. This is all assuming that nothing happened really recently to contradict that, of course.

KayJay
2006-06-06, 05:03 AM
I don't know, and while I haven't been able to read about the Brother Eye thing, if what I heard is true, I'm a bit annoyed at how they worte the scenario. It sounded like Batman made some ridiculous lapses in judgment about security, to the extent that it didn't seem like a realistic kind of mistake for him to make. I could be misinformed, since this is just based on what a friend has told me about it, but it sounded like something that no one with any sense would fall into, let alone someone with as much intelligence and forethought as Batman. I hope he comes up with another contingency system that doesn't get compromised.

..But what would be cool is if he made a fake system and "accidentally" left it vulnerable, as a means of setting an elaborate trap for a villain. That could be a cool story.
Well apparently it was Alex Luthor from another dimension (not sure how clever he is exactly) who hacked Brother Eye and took control of it. But I don't think it was a complete rewriting of code- as had been stated several times by Brother Eye, he was just taking things to their logical conclusion.
just because Batman's made things as secure as they can, doesn't mean that it's unhackable. Someone like Oracle has shown that she can access nearly any system given time, and even her systems have been compromised before. So there's not really anything that's not hackable. Given what Captain Atom has displayed in the Wildstorm series, I have this strange feeling even he could do it, or someone like Braniac... Just anything that interfaces with machines really.


edit: and I'd say that Batman, Wonder Woman and Superman are still considered very close friends.

Tarlonniel
2006-06-06, 08:05 AM
I'd say that Batman, Wonder Woman and Superman are still considered very close friends.

My three favorites! I really want to believe you... so I will. ;D

Thus I reject any unwanted realities and substitute my own. 8)

KayJay
2006-06-06, 08:18 AM
They did have a bit of conflict when Wonder Woman killed someone, Batman released Brother Eye into the world, and Superman put Batman into intensive care, but I think that was all worked out by the end of infinite crisis :) I actually don't think that I've seen them interact since year one started, but I think that from the ending of Infinite Crisis, I'll be surprised if they aren't still friends.

Beleriphon
2006-06-06, 08:33 AM
Yeah half of Bats problem is that he prepares all these crazy plan to stop Superman or Wonder Woman, they don't anything for years, so he figures nothing will happen. Then Woder Woman goes and kills some guy, on live TV too boot. Them wacky amazons. ::)

KayJay
2006-06-06, 08:35 AM
She didn't do it because she went rogue though- she did it because she didn't see any other choice. Of course, if it was Batman there instead, then his solution probably would have been to kill Superman ::)

Beleriphon
2006-06-06, 09:03 AM
She didn't do it because she went rogue though- she did it because she didn't see any other choice. Of course, if it was Batman there instead, then his solution probably would have been to kill Superman ::)

See thats Bats issue, that super powered people see killing as the only choice. Its a slippery slope, and when you can throw buildings it gets that much more dangerous. She may not have gone rogue, but its still a legitimate concern. At any rate I don't think either of us have answered the question can Batman beat the Flash.

I still feel that yes Batman can beat the Flash, its not going to be an easy fight, but he could do it with knowing how the Flash fights. Plus Batmans greatest weapon, fear, is easily used against the Flash. The poor guy is terrified of Batman, a clear advantage to Batman. Of course if the Flash can get over that its an easy win. So I think that Batman could win, but if it came right down to a punch out the Flash has the advantage of speed and thus a win, although I say that Bats is a better fighter over all. Its just that without superhuman powers Batman does need to concot wacky plans to overcome his vastly more powerful opponents. This is ultimately why I think Batman is so popular, beyond being a brooding dark character that seems to be popular these days, he can take down people with his wits, and by scaring the living bejeezus out of them. Who wouldn't want to be able to do that?

KayJay
2006-06-06, 09:18 AM
I don't see that as the issue at all- Brother Eye was started because of his mind-wipe, and the protocols from the Tower of Babel I think were also in case one of them was mind-wiped. He didn't expect everyone to go on a killing spree of their own free will or anything, as then he'd have a more productive time finding counters to all of his other enemies rather than focusing on the people least likely to go on killing sprees.


The poor guy is terrified of Batman, a clear advantage to Batman.
What exactly are we referring to here? I've not seen much recent evidence that he's terrified of Batman at all, as he's a very powerful hero who's been through a lot and matured because of it. People like Kyle and Wally used to joke about this quite a bit (as they used to be portrayed as the humour of the league, other than Plastic Man), but they've both grown a lot now, and I don't see someone like the flash being "terrified" of someone like Batman.

Beleriphon
2006-06-06, 09:26 AM
Perhaps terrified is too strong a word, and it has been some time since I've kept up on the Flash. But over all the Flash is the one who is closest to Batman in terms of mortality. At a practical level Superman is immortal, same with Wonder Woman. The Flash while a reasonably powerful hero is most certainl the most mortal of the group along with Batman. That and Batman is a pretty scary guy. All that being said, if he's matured and grown out of being scared of Batman then never mind what I said.

Of course fear is what makes Batman good at what he does. He scares people, maybe not litterally causing fear like Scarecrow, but it is how he works the villains. He uses the myth thats been built up around him to make people think that he can do things that obviously can't, he scares people something awful. I can't say that I'd be overly thrilled to be rescued from a mugger by a 6'3" guy dressed as a bat. From what I remember of the comics (keep in mind that the last time I really read them was maybe 10 years ago, I'm only just starting to read them again) the Flash was scared of Batman, or at least as much as any other sane none nigh-immortal would be.

Edit (again):

The Flash of all the character of the whole Leauge seems to me the least arrogant. He's brash and smart alecky (is that a word?), but he isn't arrogant to the point of stupidity like Superman has been, or even Batman. The Flash knows his limits, and knows that Batman could put a world of hurt on him if it came down to that. How that world of hurt manifests, or how Bats traps the Flash is unclear, but the Flash knows (or rather he thinks) that this something that could be done, and Batman is more that capable of, and willing, to do if necessary.

Superman and the rest of the League realize the same thing, at some level Batman could stop them. He's dangerous because of his cunning, but for me Superman has always present the attitude of, "I'm Superman, I can't really be hurt" even when presented by an immesely powerful foe.

KayJay
2006-06-06, 10:08 AM
The Flash of all the character of the whole Leauge seems to me the least arrogant. He's brash and smart alecky (is that a word?), but he isn't arrogant to the point of stupidity like Superman has been, or even Batman. The Flash knows his limits, and knows that Batman could put a world of hurt on him if it came down to that. How that world of hurt manifests, or how Bats traps the Flash is unclear, but the Flash knows (or rather he thinks) that this something that could be done, and Batman is more that capable of, and willing, to do if necessary.

Superman and the rest of the League realize the same thing, at some level Batman could stop them. He's dangerous because of his cunning, but for me Superman has always present the attitude of, "I'm Superman, I can't really be hurt" even when presented by an immesely powerful foe.
You might want to try not to put words in other people's mouths. I've yet to see much of this at all. When Batman does his "dark attitude" I severely doubt they expect an actual physical beating from him- if that really was what the JLA was about, they would have just left.
I doubt that most of the JLA think along the lines that certain other people could take them down if need be (and that's certainly not what is generating the fear, as the JLA doesn't attack their own, even if they do portray mental instability at times), although it seems that Superman thinks that Batman has little chance of it, which is why he supplied him with some Kryptonite to hopefully even the odds.

Beleriphon
2006-06-06, 10:26 AM
Fair enough. As I've said my opinion based largely on rather broken memories from nearly 10 years ago, in refernce to the Flash at least. So I must bow to your superior knowledge.

As for booting people out for being grumpy, well thats very true. Its not what the JLA is all about, but I still think that of all the characters the the Flash has the most to fear, he is the most mortal (again beside Batman), and Batman can be awfullly menacing when he wants. From what I recall the Flash hasn't really fought villains as powerful as Superman's, nor as outright insane as Batman's rogue gallery. Again in 10 years things change, and I've never really read any of the earlier (before the late 80's) Flash stuff, so again my specific knowledge is limited to current stories, and what I read years ago.

At any rate, I think that the Flash vs Batman is more likely to lead to a Batman win then say Batman vs Superman in an outright brawl, but I would definatly put the advantage to the Flash in the 20x20 room. Thats not how Batman fights though, so its really a moot point beyond having fun discussions about these characters.

Edit for clarity.

mroozee
2006-06-06, 11:45 AM
Lots of JLA'ers are pretty mortal. Green Arrow, Black Canary, the Question, Shining Knight, Vigilante, Vixen...

Among the Elite of Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, the Flash, Hawkgirl and Hawkman, Aquaman and Batman, the Green Lanterns, Zatanna, the Atom and Doctor Fate, I would only categorize Superman and Wonder Woman, as functionally immortal. The Green Lanterns are incredibly powerful as is the Martian (except for fire) and Doctor Fate. Aquaman or the Flash is probably next followed by the Hawks. The most mortal being Batman, the Atom and Zatanna.

NullAshton
2006-06-06, 06:03 PM
Flash is superfast. Flash is not superstrong. Flash will fall to mere glue. Need I say more?

nothingclever
2006-06-06, 06:35 PM
But spreading glue everywhere mean Batman is getting an unfair adavantage from preparation the Flash is not given plus I bet he could somehow scramble out of the glue really fast or simply have kinda force field generatec by his speed to counter such mundane things. And he could always look and avoid it if it's not some superstrong transparent glue of doom.

KayJay
2006-06-06, 06:49 PM
Flash isn't superstrong, but the stuff he can do with superspeed can hurt even the strongest of people. He's been known to carry trains in his speed wake which crash into people. He can punch them thousands of times a second (which has been known to be effective against people with near superman level invulnerability), he can create powerful whirlwinds with his arms, he is capable of detonating items by vibrating through them... he's not just a normal person who can only run fast.

The glue would have to be pretty strong to hold him for long enough to do anything- he's slowed down time so 22 minutes was months to him, so that's going to need to be pretty sticky glue. Plus he can vibrate his hands quickly so they're pretty much chainsaws to cut out of things. Then again, he can vibrate his feet to do the same. Glue probably wouldn't dry that quickly either- and if it did, then it'd probably be dry waaay before flash landed on it.

Smashymcsmash
2006-06-06, 11:53 PM
Okay the problem is that people aren't clear about in these vs. matches is what the "vs" means. *Is it a cage match? *Do you mean "Is it possible for batman to take out the flash, midnighter, that x-men villian with the helmet who's unstoppable and hangs out with Black tom( I forget his name)?"

For most of these matches Batman is going get smacked around by super powered beings in a cage match depending what the writer decides he has in his belt. *As for the Flash I can definately imagine Bat's might have some sonic doohicky and some earplugs so it is possible he could pull it out. *Yes, i know "but the flash he runs super fast and could grab the sonic batasomething before Bats could use it." *All I can say is he should use that tactic on Captain Cold, Heat Wave, the Fiddler, Weather Wizard and the rest of the Rogue's Gallery. *90% of which get their powers from something they hold in their hands. *He seems to get hit by them often enough. *Whether or not Flash is fast enough to stop him is totally up to the writer so 50/50 shot in my book.

Can Batman take outsuperhero X? First I want to clarify that by "take out" I mean stop, imprison, neutralize etc but not kill because Bats and most of the other heroes don't kill and that is important to remember. *Bats even says in an internal monolouge when fighting a Poison Ivy controlled Supes that the only reason he stands a chance is because even in that state Clark is holding back. *So Supes isn't going to flashfry batman from orbit and the flash isn't going to punch batman 82 times in the adam's apple.

Anyway in my opinion the current batman could take out any superpowered being that it is possible for a man to take out. *Essentially if a set of circumstances could be created to take out a super powered being then Batman could do it. *You can say any other hero could do the same thing but it's not true. *Some could, Reed Richards maybe Tony Stark but not too many beyond that. *Most other heroes approach problems with "punch it and see what it's got" kind of attitude not the "hmmm. it appears to dislike the flavor lemon what can I do with that" thinking that Batman moves to pretty quickly.

To end my long diatribe I just want to say that I can understand people get sick of the whole "batman can beat everyone but he regularly gets knocked out and beat up by crazy people who wear question marks and mind control hats" but you have to remember that Batman is employing specific weakness in a strategic manner when you talk about him vs a super hero. *When he encounters his crazy villians he is reacting to a scheme they have set in motion and fighting his way through their henchmen just to *figure it out. *What I mean is the answers for many specific super powered heroes is easy. *Get some gold kryptonite. *Blind Green Lantern with a flash grenade. *Stopping the Joker from unleashing a series of exploding remote control cars on the citizens of gotham take more than neutralizing him. *blah blah I talk to much.

edited for spelling

CelestialStick
2006-06-08, 12:04 AM
In the trade paperback for the Dark Night Returns, there's a script for one of the original write-ups that they wanted to do with the story.

In this version, Superman pretty much lays Batman out with one punch, even after the nuclear blast, the kryptonite and the electrically-powered exoskeleton.

Batman has him down at one point, and he starts to walk away, but then his sweat turns cold. He sees the sun come out through the clouds. He doesn't even have to turn around to know that Superman is back up and without a scratch on him. Batman has broken ribs, his hands are broken even with the exoskeleton to cushion them when hitting Superman, and he's missing several teeth. He even tries shooting Superman for old time's sake, watching the bullets bounce off his chest. Then there's a blur and he's hit with an impact that he can only describe as what being hit by a speeding freight train would be like, and he goes crashing through several walls.

When he finally comes to a stop, he's pretty much got every bone in his body broken. He looks up to see Superman standing over him, and then his heart stops.

Clearly, they weren't going to use this version because the fan-base would have been in an uproar, but it goes a long way to showing that these match-ups are clearly decided by the bias of the writer and what the editors will allow.
This is, logically, what should have happened. Shame on them for pandering instead of going with dramatic integrity.

Holy_Knight
2006-06-08, 01:15 AM
This is, logically, what should have happened. Shame on them for pandering instead of going with dramatic integrity.
Well... in some sense perhaps, but there's two problems with it.

First, Batman wouldn't shoot Superman, because Batman hates guns. It's part of what defines the character, so any Batman story which has him using them is almost certainly a mistake.

Second, if the fight had gone that way, it wouldn't have made sense with a crucial part of the story. So at the very least they would have had to change Batman's plans and motivations for that scenario to have worked, and it's not entirely clear whether that would be workable with how the story as a whole goes.

Finally, you really need to read The Dark Knight Returns. Celestial Stick. Not just because it's a great story... not just because it will help give context to a lot of what we talk about on the forums here... but because it's sort of an informal "requirement" for comic fans nowadays, since it was so influential in comics. Plus, you'll probably enjoy it. :)

Tarlonniel
2006-06-08, 02:35 AM
First, Batman wouldn't shoot Superman, because Batman hates guns.

But he has no problem with rocket launchers or nuclear missiles... :-/

Rex_Hondo
2006-06-08, 05:00 AM
But he has no problem with rocket launchers or nuclear missiles... *:-/


Well, Batman didn't launch the nuke. He just took advantage of the aftermath.

But then, I'm the first leave DKR out of these discussions, since it's Elseworlds, or at the very least only one possible future, like Kingdom Come.

Tarlonniel
2006-06-08, 05:42 AM
Well, Batman didn't launch the nuke. *He just took advantage of the aftermath.

I thought someone said it was part of his plan to take out Superman ???

Rex_Hondo
2006-06-08, 05:52 AM
I thought someone said it was part of his plan to take out Superman *???


Well, admittedly it's been a while since I've read it, but I do remember that Bruce wasn't involved in the nuclear incident. He may have had some inkling it was going to happen. I think it had been brewing for a while. Once the nuke actually went off and he knew Superman was at ground zero, he may have incorporated it into his plan.

Besides, I think the original poster may have been speaking facetiously (sp?) when he said it was all part of the plan.

Tarlonniel
2006-06-08, 06:08 AM
Besides, I think the original poster may have been speaking facetiously (sp?) when he said it was all part of the plan.

Ahh. I guess I was confused by how often people cite that as a clear Bats vs. Supes victory - seems like the former should've had something to do with the missile going off in order to make such a claim.

What was Batman's plan to take down Superman in that JLU episode? Did they ever say?

KayJay
2006-06-08, 06:39 AM
Which episode? I don't recall one where batman said he was going to take Superman down.

Tarlonniel
2006-06-08, 06:56 AM
The one where all of Batman's "contingency plans" were stolen by someone and used against the Justice League. Tower of Babel I think was the title.

Oh, wait, I guess that was an actual comic! :o

KayJay
2006-06-08, 07:09 AM
That was JLA, not JLU.

And the plan was to use a synthetic red kryptonite which made his skin transparent, so the sunlight went straight into him, making him "burst with power". Apparently he could hear crickets chirping in China from the watchtower at this kind of level of power, or the like.

Tarlonniel
2006-06-08, 02:01 PM
But... couldn't he survive by simply flying into the Earth's shadow, or the moon's, or some such, and staying there for 24 hours? Doesn't sound terribly effective :P

Holy_Knight
2006-06-08, 02:37 PM
But... couldn't he survive by simply flying into the Earth's shadow, or the moon's, or some such, and staying there for 24 hours? Doesn't sound terribly effective *:P
Well, it effectively crippled him. He was getting so much information coming into his mind all at once, that it was almost impossible to stand. You know how awful it can be to have lots of voices or loud noises all assaulting you at once? Imagine that, only your senses pick up so much that you're hearing a constant barrage of sounds from everywhere in the world. He ended up just standing there, frozen, with tears coming down his face.

CelestialStick
2006-06-08, 03:57 PM
Well... in some sense perhaps, but there's two problems with it.

First, Batman wouldn't shoot Superman, because Batman hates guns. It's part of what defines the character, so any Batman story which has him using them is almost certainly a mistake.

Second, if the fight had gone that way, it wouldn't have made sense with a crucial part of the story. So at the very least they would have had to change Batman's plans and motivations for that scenario to have worked, and it's not entirely clear whether that would be workable with how the story as a whole goes.

Finally, you really need to read The Dark Knight Returns. Celestial Stick. Not just because it's a great story... not just because it will help give context to a lot of what we talk about on the forums here... but because it's sort of an informal "requirement" for comic fans nowadays, since it was so influential in comics. Plus, you'll probably enjoy it. :)

Well, it's on my Amazon.com Wish List. :D

So why was Batman attacking Superman anyway?

KayJay
2006-06-08, 04:32 PM
Well, it effectively crippled him. He was getting so much information coming into his mind all at once, that it was almost impossible to stand. You know how awful it can be to have lots of voices or loud noises all assaulting you at once? Imagine that, only your senses pick up so much that you're hearing a constant barrage of sounds from everywhere in the world. He ended up just standing there, frozen, with tears coming down his face.

At no point did he look crippled to me. He still managed to free Flash by using his heat vision in a fine enough beam to fry the device on him. And he was crying because he was using his supervision and superhearing to view the destruction caused- you can tell because we were treated to 2 panels, one focused on his eyes, the other on his ears, and what they were registering.

He also flew off quite easily a minute later.

sun_tzu
2006-06-08, 05:45 PM
Well, it's on my Amazon.com Wish List. :D

So why was Batman attacking Superman anyway?


Been a while since I've read it, but I think the president had sent Superman to arrest Batman for killing the Joker (he didn't really kill him, but the world didn't know that...And part of the premise of the series was that superheroes had slowly turned into an underground phenomenon)

Holy_Knight
2006-06-08, 07:01 PM
At no point did he look crippled to me. He still managed to free Flash by using his heat vision in a fine enough beam to fry the device on him. And he was crying because he was using his supervision and superhearing to view the destruction caused- you can tell because we were treated to 2 panels, one focused on his eyes, the other on his ears, and what they were registering.

He also flew off quite easily a minute later.

Ah, "crippled" was probably a poor choice of words on my part. I meant it in a more metaphorical sense. But anyway, it may have had less effect on him than I had thought, but it was still pretty dramatic--mostly I was just trying to convey that it was a bigger deal than someone might at first think.

CelestialStick
2006-06-08, 08:37 PM
Been a while since I've read it, but I think the president had sent Superman to arrest Batman for killing the Joker (he didn't really kill him, but the world didn't know that...And part of the premise of the series was that superheroes had slowly turned into an underground phenomenon)

So Batman doesn't kill the Joker, and the president sends Superman to apprehend him for the killing. Instead of just showing that he's innocent, Batman fights Superman? And that's the supposedly great storyline?

Steward
2006-06-08, 10:38 PM
Instead of just showing that he's innocent, Batman fights Superman? And that's the supposedly great storyline?

A) No one ever said that the Batman was well-mannered and reasonable.

B) The story is probably much better than this thread makes it seem. I haven't read it yet but I refuse to believe that the story would use that pathetic "superheroes fight each other because of a silly misunderstanding that could have been resolved if they had more than one brain cell between them" trope that so many other less popular comics used.

CelestialStick
2006-06-08, 11:20 PM
A) No one ever said that the Batman was well-mannered and reasonable.

B) The story is probably much better than this thread makes it seem. I haven't read it yet but I refuse to believe that the story would use that pathetic "superheroes fight each other because of a silly misunderstanding that could have been resolved if they had more than one brain cell between them" trope that so many other less popular comics used.
The more I hear about the comic, the worse it sounds--the more it sounds like anti-Superman Batman-deifiers just acted like jerks will whenever they get a modicum of power. Sounds like DC has ruined both Superman and Batman.

Skyserpent
2006-06-08, 11:24 PM
Which is why I say: GO FLASH!

CelestialStick
2006-06-09, 12:12 AM
Which is why I say: GO FLASH!

Go Flash racer!
Go Flash racer!
Go Flash racer
Go! ;)

KayJay
2006-06-09, 02:57 AM
I haven't read TDKR yet, but I rarely read extremely old comics to learn more about characters and their capabilities in the present day, as everyone's power fluctuates from time to time, so the more recent appearances are always a better indicator. This comic was made before the 90's if I recall correctly?

Holy_Knight
2006-06-09, 05:12 AM
I haven't read TDKR yet
WHAT?!

You heathen!!!! :o

Man, Celestial Stick has an excuse since he hasn't read comics at all in a long time--but there's just no excuse for this from you, I'm afraid. ;)



The more I hear about the comic, the worse it sounds--the more it sounds like anti-Superman Batman-deifiers just acted like jerks will whenever they get a modicum of power. *Sounds like DC has ruined both Superman and Batman.
Nah, it's not like that at all. To answer your previous question, the reason Superman attacks Batman is becaue he is ordered by the president to arrest him. I don't want to say much more because it would spoil the story, but it's definitely worth reading. Also, while Superman does end up being an antagonist of sorts to Batman, they're both portrayed pretty sympathetically.

KayJay
2006-06-09, 05:17 AM
I was 2 years old when it came out, cut me a break ::)

Beleriphon
2006-06-09, 10:14 AM
TDKR is about Batman coming out of retirment, and Superman is much a myth as a reality. The fight is sort of Batman's way of bowing out of the world at large. As mentioned I wont say much more, but the book makes more sense if you understand early to mid 80's politics.

CelestialStick
2006-06-09, 12:28 PM
WHAT?!

You heathen!!!! :o

Man, Celestial Stick has an excuse since he hasn't read comics at all in a long time--but there's just no excuse for this from you, I'm afraid. ;)

Nah, it's not like that at all. To answer your previous question, the reason Superman attacks Batman is becaue he is ordered by the president to arrest him. I don't want to say much more because it would spoil the story, but it's definitely worth reading. Also, while Superman does end up being an antagonist of sorts to Batman, they're both portrayed pretty sympathetically.
Yup, I am OLD. :D

Anyway, I'm not sure about TDNR. It's on my Wish List as I mentioned, so I might get around to buying it eventually. I don't like the fact tha Batman "wins" nor the whole gloating "hands around your through" nonsense. We'll see.