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Mystic Muse
2010-05-16, 07:57 PM
I'm trying to write what will be the greatest fantasy epic evah!* but I just can't. I can't decide on how to write the beginning and while I'm motivated right now in a day or two I won't be. Does anybody have any tips for writing a book?

*Note. This is a lie.

Dogmantra
2010-05-16, 08:01 PM
Set yourself a goal. NaNoWriMo style is good for a first draft. Try to bang out one or two thousand words per day, every day for a month. It becomes really quite easy once you get used to it. Just write. Don't get hung up on worries about it not being good, or it not making much sense: no-one can write a perfect story the first time around (though some people can get away with less revision than others). You can always edit it later. I guarantee that you will not be sat here when you've finished the first draft, wishing that you had written less.

If you can't write the beginning: skip the beginning. Oftentimes the worst mistake people make is starting too early (one of the most common responses that publishers give [and even if you're not trying for publication, it's good practice] is "start from chapter 3"). If the first scene doesn't start the action off, get rid of it. Likewise: if you have a storyline thought out, but don't know how to start it, consider starting it further in than you originally thought.

Szilard
2010-05-16, 08:08 PM
I'm sure it's gonna be said at least ten more times, but just keep writing. You don't even need to write the chapters in order. As long as you keep writing, you'll be fine. Your first draft will suck, but don't look back until you're done with the whole thing. Then read it over, let friends read it over, then rewrite it. Rinse and repeat.

Sneak
2010-05-16, 08:24 PM
Szilard is wise.

I wouldn't necessarily worry about setting yourself goals—because with rigid goals, if you don't meet them, you're just setting yourself up to feel even worse.

The important thing is just to WRITE. Force yourself to sit down and write.

valadil
2010-05-16, 08:30 PM
Go write. Reading about writing is just procrastination. You'll learn more by writing than by reading about it. Aim for 1500 words a day.

If you're blocked somewhere, go write elsewhere. Write the part of the novel you're enthused to write.

Don't make it perfect. If you're trying to write the perfect novel, you'll never get past the first sentence. Let it be flawed. Just keep going. You can always edit later.

Dogmantra
2010-05-16, 08:35 PM
I wouldn't necessarily worry about setting yourself goals—because with rigid goals, if you don't meet them, you're just setting yourself up to feel even worse.

All depends how you work - I can't do anything unless I have a deadline because I procrastinate like a madman.

That means I'm a better writer, right? :smalltongue:

Rutskarn
2010-05-16, 08:37 PM
I'm trying to write what will be the greatest fantasy epic evah!* but I just can't. I can't decide on how to write the beginning and while I'm motivated right now in a day or two I won't be. Does anybody have any tips for writing a book?

*Note. This is a lie.

Every single goddamned writer who ever lived wanted to procrastinate and not do his or her writing. You just got to fight through that, and hate yourself for not meeting your goals.

Technically, I actually did write a book, so I guess this advice isn't total BS? But yeah, procrastination's always a problem.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-16, 08:49 PM
So, just write regardless of whether I think it's any good?

Szilard
2010-05-16, 08:57 PM
Pretty much. You can rewrite after you're finished.

Unless you're Ray Bradbury who wrote Fahrenheit 451 in like 11 days and published his first draft and became a bestseller. Then again, many argue the book sucked.

Either way, write and rewrite.

Cleverdan22
2010-05-16, 08:58 PM
If you have clear characters set, then get in their heads. I wrote a short story about five people five five ends of a continent once, and had to figure out how they would meet, so I figured out a place they would all go, then I started writing. Seriously, get all up in their business.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-16, 09:02 PM
The only real problem with that idea is that there's one character I don't want to get in the mindset of for reasons I can't mention on this board.

PhoeKun
2010-05-16, 09:08 PM
The only real problem with that idea is that there's one character I don't want to get in the mindset of for reasons I can't mention on this board.

I have some doubts that you should include such a character in any story, but there's time enough to actually think later.

Writing comes first, before anything else. Even making sense. You'll have ample opportunity to sort out the details after it's not just an idea in your head.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-16, 09:13 PM
I have some doubts that you should include such a character in any story, but there's time enough to actually think later.

I guess I could avoid putting him in but it might be kind of hard to explain the character's absence.

Sneak
2010-05-16, 09:56 PM
I guess I could avoid putting him in but it might be kind of hard to explain the character's absence.

Um, why would you have to explain the character's absence? It's not like Ray Bradbury spent much of his time explaining why Huck Finn wasn't in his books.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-16, 10:10 PM
Um, why would you have to explain the character's absence? It's not like Ray Bradbury spent much of his time explaining why Huck Finn wasn't in his books.

Well, he's the father of one of the main characters. I guess I could just write it off as him not giving a crap about his kid which would probably be in character for him.

Also, I don't really get the reference......

Szilard
2010-05-16, 10:35 PM
Ray Bradbury never explained why Huckleberry Finn wasn't in his books, because he wasn't in his books. You don't need to explain the absence of a character. Just don't mention them at all.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-16, 10:40 PM
Ray Bradbury never explained why Huckleberry Finn wasn't in his books, because he wasn't in his books. You don't need to explain the absence of a character. Just don't mention them at all.

Ah. Sorry, that isn't going to work in this case. I can't really explain why without breaking board rules so lets just leave it at that.

Dogmantra
2010-05-16, 10:44 PM
If this father character is horrible and you don't want to get into his mindset so you can't write him: don't write him at all. Honestly, the only way that it'll be obvious is if you explain why he's not there. Never even mention him, and your readers will forget that the main character has a father.

Unless he's a plot point in which case you might want to change your story.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-16, 10:49 PM
If this father character is horrible and you don't want to get into his mindset so you can't write him: don't write him at all. Honestly, the only way that it'll be obvious is if you explain why he's not there. Never even mention him, and your readers will forget that the main character has a father.

Unless he's a plot point in which case you might want to change your story.

He is sort of a plot point. I'm pretty sure that even if I don't write him in as a character he's definitely going to come up.

I guess I could sort of get into his mindset. His main trait isn't quite as bad as several of his other ones.

EDIT: to make an example, taking this guy out and not explaining why would be like taking Voldemort out of Harry potter but leaving the death eaters in. Everything Voldemort does and did still happens he just never appears in the book. To be honest, he doesn't have to be a main character but writing him out of the storyline and never having him come up is not an option.

KataraAltinaII
2010-05-16, 11:41 PM
just start writing.

also work out a bunch of characters, even if you don't think you can use them straightaway. I find that by writing things down here and there, but also having somewhat of a core story to build off of is what has given me a book of Middle-Earth size proportions.

Jimorian
2010-05-17, 02:36 AM
You are not your characters, so if you need somebody for the story you can't talk about because of the board rules, you need him, he won't rub off on you.

If a strict quota doesn't work for you, one trick I played on myself to get myself going was set my required wordcount really low. 100 words a day. It could even be 50, about the length of a middling paragraph.

Point being that the first words are always the hardest for some people, and if you can get past them, the rest generally starts to flow. I had a LOT of days early on where I just barely made that mark, but as time went by and I got into the habit of starting, the continuing became easier and easier. For the final push I was hitting 3000 words a day fairly easily.

Big agreement with everybody above about not worrying about the quality of the first draft. It exists to have raw material to mold into the final vision.

Amiel
2010-05-17, 04:07 AM
You could always start at the middle or end and then write your way back to the beginning; kind of like a story in reverse.


Get out a blank piece of paper.
Write as many keywords as you can; any that immediately come to mind.
Scribble or cross out any that are of no interest to you.
Thematically organise and group the uncrossed words.

You now have some idea what you may want to write about.


Set yourself an overall goal, and then set out objectives tied to the overarching goal; what do you intend to accomplish on such and such page? how do you intend to emote the story to readers? et al.

Delta
2010-05-17, 04:12 AM
EDIT: to make an example, taking this guy out and not explaining why would be like taking Voldemort out of Harry potter but leaving the death eaters in. Everything Voldemort does and did still happens he just never appears in the book. To be honest, he doesn't have to be a main character but writing him out of the storyline and never having him come up is not an option.

So just write him in, where's the problem? You just have to know what he's like and what he does, unless he's a primary viewpoint character, you don't really have to "get into" each and every person in your book 100%.

Amiel
2010-05-17, 04:16 AM
If you choose a perspective to write in, be sure to remain in that perspective for that particular character or scene; it'd confusing if the author suddenly switches from first person to third person in the middle of a paragraph.

dehro
2010-05-17, 05:07 AM
my tip? accept tips only from published authors, because they can prove that what they say has at least worked once.... but even then don't take their words for gold..what works for them may not work for you and vice versa...
no ammount of accademic degrees guarantees that the tip you're getting will be sufficient in it's own right to solve your creative conundrum...and there are scores of authors who don't have a degree at all, and scores of people with a degree who are failed authors..in other words, the recipe for "becoming the best writer ever" doesn't exist.
also, on the internet, it's full of people who will give you advice just because they like to be seen as knowledgeable..any advice..on any subject, whether they know about it or not...to the point of faking formal education about the topic at hand.

then again...I'm not a published author, and I'm just a guy on the internet.. so maybe you shouldn't listen to me

Dogmantra
2010-05-17, 05:58 AM
my tip? accept tips only from published authors, because they can prove that what they say has at least worked once

also, on the internet, it's full of people who will give you advice just because they like to be seen as knowledgeable..any advice..on any subject, whether they know about it or not...to the point of faking formal education about the topic at hand.

?
That's like saying you should only accept advice on cooking from professional chefs with their own restaurant, or advice on playing tennis from someone who has played in Wimbledon. Okay, so you might get better advice, but just because someone hasn't been published, it doesn't mean their advice is automatically invalid, or even worse. There are plenty of published writers that come to mind who I would tell to stuff it if they tried giving me advice.

Szilard
2010-05-17, 09:02 AM
Stephen King writes at least six pages a day, so the keep writing thing rings true. There's your professional advice.

Delta
2010-05-17, 09:14 AM
Stephen King writes at least six pages a day, so the keep writing thing rings true. There's your professional advice.

Well, you don't have to be a professional to give that kind of advice. It should be pretty obvious, really. If you want to be a writer, you gotta write. Sure, there's advice, there are books on writing (really good books that can teach you a whole lot of stuff as well) and other surrounding activities that can actually be worthwile, but in the end it comes down to this, if you don't write, you're not a writer, and you won't become a better one.

PhoeKun
2010-05-17, 09:30 AM
my tip? accept tips only from published authors, because they can prove that what they say has at least worked once.... but even then don't take their words for gold..what works for them may not work for you and vice versa...
no ammount of accademic degrees guarantees that the tip you're getting will be sufficient in it's own right to solve your creative conundrum...and there are scores of authors who don't have a degree at all, and scores of people with a degree who are failed authors..in other words, the recipe for "becoming the best writer ever" doesn't exist.
also, on the internet, it's full of people who will give you advice just because they like to be seen as knowledgeable..any advice..on any subject, whether they know about it or not...to the point of faking formal education about the topic at hand.

then again...I'm not a published author, and I'm just a guy on the internet.. so maybe you shouldn't listen to me

The only advice a published author can give you that a non-published one can't (probably) is how to successfully grease the wheels at a publishing company to get the thing in print. And even then, they might not know, while a non-published author might. It's not a reasonable credential.

My degree doesn't make me more or less qualified to offer advice, either. Earning it certainly helped me to become a better writer, because it put me in contact with some very wise individuals and gave me lots of dedicated time to practice and get better. But what does that matter? I've learned a lot from talking to people on the internet about it, as well. There are some marvelous people on these very boards who can give you a major push on your way to being a better writer (or a writer in general). What do you want to say to these people? "Oh, you're just trying to sound intelligent. I'm not listening to you unless you're published."?

Of course, writing is a personal thing. Particularly in the arena of "how do I write, period?", what works for others might not work for you. And there will be a lot of differing opinions on how to go about such and such, or how to make this character or this passage more effective, or if this or that plot point needs to exist. And as a writer, you should be aware that you have the final say about what happens and how it all gets done when it comes to you writing. And as part of that, you have the right to not listen to some advice, or to pay more attention to one person than another. But the best policy, particularly when starting out, is to listen to anyone who will talk to you on the subject, and see from as many points of view as possible, so that you can more effectively find the one that is the best fit for you.

I think that any advice on a systematic way to reject advice is bad advice. And although you may not realize it, it's hurtful as well. There is no final authority on what it means to write and write well, and offhandedly referring to the advice of well meaning individuals as worthless is, to put it plainly, not ok.

Jarawara
2010-05-17, 09:40 AM
A quote by Stephen King, which I oft repeat to myself:

"A page a day is a book a year."

(Edit: As per Szilard above, obviously King has increased his speed, but then again, I think he publishes more than a book a year nowadays.)

Write a little every day. If inspired, write alot. If sick or distracted, take a day off, but get back to it, keep a steady slow pace, and you'll have alot done in no time.

*~*

As described in earlier posts, trying starting in the middle. I had trouble in my earlier years with creative writing, specifically with two issues: Starting, and Ending. I solved them both by simply avoiding them.

I start in the middle of a scene, in the middle of the plot, and concentrate on describing a personality, a dialog, an action, or whatever I want to focus on. And then, I just end the scene without concluding anything.

That may not seem conducive to producing a completed project, but after years of this, I have literally thousands of pages of ongoing story, and my players/readers can recognize any one of hundreds of characters, and even tell when they seem to be acting out of character. The story itself is concluded (this was all for a game as well as a book), and those following the story have all raved on the flow and build up, and final climax, of the story.

The only thing left for me to do is figure out how to turn all those gamelogs, story-snippets, and character transcripts into a single manuscript, leaving no gaps along the way. And keep the book's page count lower than 6 thousand.

Anyone care to give me advice on editing?

Telonius
2010-05-17, 10:09 AM
So, for the father. This is my own opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.

Remember that you and your characters are not the same thing. The best characters are the characters who are most truly themselves, even if that self is a puppy-kicking, child-raping Nazi who tries to force his religion on everyone he meets.

Note that you don't have to describe everything in gory detail. Often that doesn't really add much to the story. Think about the point in Star Wars where Vader is interrogating Leia. You don't see what happens with that droid with the big pointy needle, but you don't need to. You know for sure it's not good, and it does reveal something about the characters involved. Up to that point we were about as sure as we could be that Vader was on Team Evil. I mean, scary helmet, black clothes, captured a princess, the whole nine yards. But that scene sealed the deal that he wasn't just being a loyal Imperial subject - the moral event horizon had been crossed.

The important thing is that you not wimp out on the characters, good guys or bad guys. Don't force them to act in ways that run counter to themselves. Don't shy away from allowing your villains to be villains. Sometimes people act in truly abominable ways to each other. Pretending that's not true is disrespectful to your audience, your characters, and ultimately your art and yourself.

This is true with the good guys and anti-heroes as well. Going with the Star Wars analogy, there is a very good reason that many fans considered Lucas's edit of the Cantina scene to be a gigantic cop-out. Han shot first, as the t-shirt says.

dehro
2010-05-17, 10:17 AM
The only advice a published author can give you that a non-published one can't (probably) is how to successfully grease the wheels at a publishing company to get the thing in print. And even then, they might not know, while a non-published author might. It's not a reasonable credential.

My degree doesn't make me more or less qualified to offer advice, either. Earning it certainly helped me to become a better writer, because it put me in contact with some very wise individuals and gave me lots of dedicated time to practice and get better. But what does that matter? I've learned a lot from talking to people on the internet about it, as well. There are some marvelous people on these very boards who can give you a major push on your way to being a better writer (or a writer in general). What do you want to say to these people? "Oh, you're just trying to sound intelligent. I'm not listening to you unless you're published."?

Of course, writing is a personal thing. Particularly in the arena of "how do I write, period?", what works for others might not work for you. And there will be a lot of differing opinions on how to go about such and such, or how to make this character or this passage more effective, or if this or that plot point needs to exist. And as a writer, you should be aware that you have the final say about what happens and how it all gets done when it comes to you writing. And as part of that, you have the right to not listen to some advice, or to pay more attention to one person than another. But the best policy, particularly when starting out, is to listen to anyone who will talk to you on the subject, and see from as many points of view as possible, so that you can more effectively find the one that is the best fit for you.

I think that any advice on a systematic way to reject advice is bad advice. And although you may not realize it, it's hurtful as well. There is no final authority on what it means to write and write well, and offhandedly referring to the advice of well meaning individuals as worthless is, to put it plainly, not ok.

I love how you have caught the irony with which I wrote my "advice"..especially the last sentence.

PhoeKun
2010-05-17, 10:37 AM
I love how you have caught the irony with which I wrote my "advice"..especially the last sentence.

Oh, then obviously it's ok, because you intended your bad advice ironically.

dehro
2010-05-17, 10:57 AM
Oh, then obviously it's ok, because you intended your bad advice ironically.

kinda...

anyhoo, I'll reiterate the serious bit of my advice: seeking advice on the internet for most things is...risky. use your brains and criticism with whatever piece of advice you're given, because you have no way of knowing that whoever is giving you advice actually knows what he's talking about and plenty of people give advice because they like the sound of their voice and it makes them feel important

does that please you better, phoekun?
actually, if it doesn't, that's your problem...I think it is valid advice, and that's reason enough for me to post it, whether you like it or not..because I believe it to be true.
soaking in other people's opinions and experiences is all good and well, but it must be done with some criticism and some applied intelligence, not completely at random. otherwise I could very well tell the OP that what he should do is to write everything in rhyme... just for funsies and with no intention to help. if s/he follows my advice and gets published, yay for me..if she does and spends her life changing what she was doing to follow a stupid idea given by a random moron online (me)...then..well..I guess you're getting the point.
my reference to published writers and "educated wannabe writers" was to be taken in this direction
not all advice is good advice, and not all advice is given for the right motive or intent..that's all I'm saying
use your brain!

onthetown
2010-05-17, 11:07 AM
It's been said, but just write. Even if you don't have a clear idea of where you want to go, just write. If you don't feel like writing the actual book, write notes about the book and do what research you have to do. You can't force yourself to write if you don't want to, but researching for the purpose of the book will give you ideas that will make you want to write. Look into things that you don't think would be related to your story but still interest you, because they'll give you inspiration and possibly more ideas. I went through different phases when I was writing, and they were things that didn't originally have a place but ended up lending me inspiration so I could fill out the story a bit: one week it was human biology, the next it was the sciences in general, for a few months I was studying nothing but the properties of gem stones and herbal oils... The story was a fantasy that really had nothing to do with any of it, but researching things I was interested in made me feel creative and knowledge-y and it in turn made me want to sit down and write.

Don't obsess over one part of the book; you can always edit and rewrite later. I think my two novels went through about 5 rewrites each and I was constantly editing them aside from that; a lot of authors will tell you that even 5 is a low amount. If you love your idea, make it your baby and take care of it. :smallsmile:

Catch
2010-05-17, 11:09 AM
I love how you have caught the irony with which I wrote my "advice"..especially the last sentence.

:smallconfused:

"Irony?" - is that how we're using it now? Because I'm sure I read a poorly-spelled post (edit: Oh look, now there's a sequel) attempting to be obliquely dismissive of all the well-intentioned and positive advice given by previous posters, for, as can best be inferred by context, solely for the purpose of being contrary - then hand-waving away any perceived insult with a shrug.

I'm close to certain that's not irony.

Now, since I'm paid to tutor in the Fiction Writing department of my college, I'd like to offer a little of my experience, if that's alright with you.


I'm trying to write what will be the greatest fantasy epic evah!* but I just can't. I can't decide on how to write the beginning and while I'm motivated right now in a day or two I won't be. Does anybody have any tips for writing a book?

Let me affirm what the chorus of other posters have said: Write. Generating material to work with is most important in the early stages, and there's essentially no harm you can do to your story by continuing to write, even if it's coming out like sludge from a drain pipe. Getting words onto the page is the most reliable way to loosen up the flow until you hit something that seems like clarity. You don't need to start at the beginning, in fact, doing so may prove quite difficult, because beginnings are crucial. Instead, go to what's taking your attention.

If you have a moment in mind that you're seeing clearly, start writing it as you see it, describing it from beginning to end as honestly and accurately as you can. Adopt whatever perspective or tense feels natural, and if something's not working, shift to another vantage point and see what happens. Keep the action moving until it naturally ends, so that you're telling the moment completely. The question you should be asking yourself, as you write and when the action starts to wane is - "what happens next?" It's Newton's Third Law applied to storytelling - everything action has a reaction, consequences, whether physical or emotional, immediate or not.

Try this exercise: Start with a place you want to write about - indoor, outdoor, familiar or new, but a setting you can see clearly. Look around that place - indulge your creativity as you peer into character's pockets and bags, open cabinets, peer under tables and into cracks - and find an object that's taking your attention, something that could be held in someone's hand. Then start asking questions. What's that object doing there in your place? How did it get there? Who owns it, what's it's purpose? What's it doing right now? This may seem innocuous, but it can help you discover things important to your story and characters - a like gold ring in the pocket of a hobbit.

Learning about your story is what will help you tell it more, better, and with increasing energy. Don't worry about where it's going, but if you have an idea, write it down, and keep a loose outline of where you think the story is heading. I say "loose" because you ought to be open to change - the story is often wiser than the writer. Let yourself be free to travel with the story, instead of forcing it where you think it should go. You're discovering what you have to tell as much as you're trying to get it all down. As long as you keep exploring and writing, you're making progress - worry about structure when you have more material. Tell one story at a time, moment by moment, and see where it takes you.

dehro
2010-05-17, 11:13 AM
:smallconfused:

"Irony?" - is that how we're using it now? Because I'm sure I read a poorly-spelled post attempting to be obliquely dismissive of all the well-intentioned and positive advice given by previous posters, for, as can best be inferred by context, solely for the purpose of being contrary - then hand-waving away any perceived insult with a shrug..seriously? are we getting into the "my spelling is better than yours" gig?... then I would ask that we do so in italian, dutch and french as well...in that order... what with english not being my first language, nor my second..and not having a specific formal education thataways.

that said, I tried to clarify my point in my second reply..try to keep up. I happen to share the opinion that a lot of writing and then some more, is a good way to improve one's skills. but that wasn't the point of my post.
did I express my point badly? fair enough..I'll try to do better next time..no need to get the hump

Raz_Fox
2010-05-17, 11:23 AM
seriously? are we getting into the "my spelling is better than yours" gig?... then I would ask that we do so in italian, dutch and french as well...in that order... what with english not being my first language, nor my second..and not having a specific formal education thataways.

I'm just going to say - it looks very bad for you to be giving out arrogant writing advice while also mangling the language. Would you trust a driving instructor whose car was a totaled wreck? I don't think so. I'm just saying - there's a reason why Catch called you on it.

Also, ellipses are not cruise control for seriousness.


Anyway, I can't really give you any good advice that hasn't been already said... actually, wait, I think I can.

Have fun with your novel. I find that my best writing is when I'm just enjoying the flow of the words and making them into my own unique tone. If you're not having fun... well, it takes a lot of the spirit out of the novel. Just relax and let it flow.

dehro
2010-05-17, 11:31 AM
I'm just going to say - it looks very bad for you to be giving out arrogant writing advice while also mangling the language. Would you trust a driving instructor whose car was a totaled wreck? I don't think so. I'm just saying - there's a reason why Catch called you on it.



I agree, but I would have appreciated more if he had pointed out where I had made a mistake, grammar/spelling wise...you know..constructive criticism..the lack of which is, as I understand it, what I'm being accused of.
(I would genuinely have appreciated it..you never cease to learn)

it seems I'm having a hard time in getting my point across...I am NOT trying to give advice on how to write...I KNOW I am not qualified to do so, which is why I DIDN'T do it. I merely advised not to take titles and diplomas for a guarantee of a good advice and to appply a healthy dose of criticism to whatever advice he was getting.
the concept I tried to put across applies to any language, and I might have worded it better in italian... but what I was trying to say was never an advice on writing, but an advice on how to handle advice gotten from, however much appreciated and well intended, anonymous bots on the internet. "wikipedia told me so" is being used in ever increasing arguments and debates, out there..I simply advocated caution.

edit:I must stop saying advice

CarpeGuitarrem
2010-05-17, 11:33 AM
Besides the "just keep writing", it helps also to have a good idea of what storytelling structure is. That keeps your story going, instead of being unnecessarily long (I'm looking at you, 90% of fantasy writing...) and bloated. Particularly helpful are the "inverse checkmark" (See here (http://www.factmonster.com/cig/writing-well/narrative-building-blocks.html)) and the three-act structure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_act_structure). Other writers will talk about the "monomyth" of Joseph Campbell as a viable structure option....your mileage may vary. IMHO, there's nothing in the monomyth that can't better be explained by more general plot structures like the three-act and the inverse checkmark.

Also just search up "story structure", to get some ideas. Basically, you're looking for ways to learn how to pace your story, and how to keep the plot ticking, and most importantly how to keep the tension of the story well-primed. It should also give you a vague outline to work from, so that you aren't floundering around looking for "what happens next".

Other than that, yeah. Keep writing.

As for the character you're uncomfortable with, it can definitely be a nasty thing to have to work inside of the head of someone like that. Remember that he doesn't have to be a character whose viewpoint you see. You could probably be fine sketching out the base motivations for him, and then tell the rest of him through the son character.

EDIT: Also, now that I think of it, borrow, borrow, borrow. Watch good movies, see what they do to advance plot and characters. Read books, see how they keep things interesting. Read comics, see how they carry the story arcs through each issue. Particularly do it with an eye to the visual, because writing is increasingly becoming a visual medium.

dehro
2010-05-17, 11:34 AM
Also, ellipses are not cruise control for seriousness.



a little help? I'm not sure what you mean by this

CarpeGuitarrem
2010-05-17, 11:37 AM
a little help? I'm not sure what you mean by this
He means...very succinctly...that when you use the...ellipsis ("...")...well...that doesn't automatically make...the sentence...serious...

I should know. I've been there. :smallbiggrin:

onthetown
2010-05-17, 11:39 AM
I agree, but I would have appreciated more if he had pointed out where I had made a mistake, grammar/spelling wise...you know..constructive criticism..the lack of which is, as I understand it, what I'm being accused of.
(I would genuinely have appreciated it..you never cease to learn)

it seems I'm having a hard time in getting my point across...I am NOT trying to give advice on how to write...I KNOW I am not qualified to do so, which is why I DIDN'T do it. I merely advised not to take titles and diplomas for a guarantee of a good advice and to appply a healthy dose of criticism to whatever advice he was getting.
the concept I tried to put across applies to any language, and I might have worded it better in italian... but what I was trying to say was never an advice on writing, but an advice on how to handle advice gotten from, however much appreciated and well intended, anonymous bots on the internet. "wikipedia told me so" is being used in ever increasing arguments and debates, out there..I simply advocated caution.

edit:I must stop saying advice

This is a thread to help somebody else with their writing... If you want help with grammar that desperately then a new thread to help you with your grammar would put the focus on you and what you need. This one puts us in "help-Kyuubi" mode, not "help-Dehro" mode.

It shouldn't matter where advice comes from. You take what you're given and you use what works best. What works best for you could come from somebody who is published, is unpublished, has degrees, doesn't have any formal training, or even somebody who writes poetry on napkins in restaurants. Only listening to certain types of people will limit you.

dehro
2010-05-17, 11:48 AM
He means...very succinctly...that when you use the...ellipsis ("...")...well...that doesn't automatically make...the sentence...serious...

I should know. I've been there. :smallbiggrin:
oh I see..thanks... I guess I tend to use the ellipsis in my own particular way..probably incorrectly..to make things stand out a little more or be read in one breath...I know..confusing..it works in my head but I accept it's probably wrong.


riyou...I get what you mean and no..I'm not that desperate for someone to correct my spelling..it's appreciated but all considered, I think I'm doing fairly well.
anyway..I see your point...and I'll say that what you say isn't much different from what I say.. (again, so it looks in my brain, which is probably a flaw that one can put in one's own writing..having concepts that work just fine if you are the author and know what you're on about, but don't work for the casual reader)..
if we can agree that the core of my message is/was "use your brain when asking for and accepting help/advice..not all advice is good or well meant or given for your own good" and leave it at that, forgetting my mini-rant against the concept of a title being guarantee for good advice...(probably conditioned by my own experience with embittered wannabe writers)...then I'll extend the hand of freedom climb back on my donkey and move on.

onthetown
2010-05-17, 11:52 AM
if we can agree that the core of my message is/was "use your brain when asking for and accepting help/advice..not all advice is good or well meant or given for your own good" and leave it at that, forgetting my mini-rant against the concept of a title being guarantee for good advice...(probably conditioned by my own experience with embittered wannabe writers)...then I'll extend the hand of freedom climb back on my donkey and move on.

That'd be it right there; the message, I mean. We're good.

Capt Spanner
2010-05-18, 11:36 AM
Rule 0 of writing: characters are more important than plot.

It doesn't matter if your have an epic, awesome plot, like none written before if your characters are stale, your heroes unsympathetic, your villain poses no threat. It's not enough to find a brilliant way for the heroes to win, the audience has to want the hero to win. Not managing this is the biggest problem with most of the scripts I reviewed when I ran the University Light Entertainment Society. (We did panto).

I find writing far easier if I know where the story is going. I normally start by writing out the climax of the story, and then a basic character outline.

After that, I'll write plot outline backwards to an appropriate beginning, and then write more detailed plot outlines.

After that, the play (which is my primary medium) more or less writes itself. If I don't have to think about the plot too much, I can focus more on the characterisation.

I do tend to find that somewhere between writing the climax, and writing the rest of it, characters will become more fleshed out and evolve in my head. Don't become to attached to any particular outcome, or try to force characters to follow your plot if it doesn't feel right. If they deviate too much, it may be well worth rewriting your plot.

Characters should dictate plot, and not the other way around.

truemane
2010-05-18, 12:12 PM
Rule 0 of writing: characters are more important than plot.

No. no, no. Rule 0 of writing is Characters are the plot. You have a real story when the story is driven forward by the choices of the characters and those choices are extensions of who the characters are as people. Make people who want and need and strive and act and your story take scare of itself.

But I'll tell you the trick with writing, Kyuubi, no matter what anyone tells you, you can find someone just as smart, just as experienced, just as articulate, who'll tell you the complete opposite. And they're right too. Just look into the endless discussions over what, exactly, constitutes a Mary Sue or what, exactly, makes a Paladin in DnD fall from grace. Or whether or not Twilight is any good.

There's no consensus. Nor should there be.

But I'll tell you something that's as true as true can reasonably be, something based on long, long, long years of hard-earned experienced: No one's a good writer. No one. Everyone's a crappy writer. Some people are good RE-writers. And some people aren't. And THAT'S the key skill involved in 'being a writer' (whether you get paid for it or not).

You ever heard the expression 'Decisions get made by the people that show up'? People use the expression to mean that, in the business world particularly, things get done by the people that go to the meetings, put in the leg work and do what they say they'll do. Title and power and prestige matter, of course, but they matter less than just showing up and getting things done.

Well, novels get written by the people that write. Simple. Talent matters, of course, but it matters less than putting in the time. I can't help you with your motivation. There aren't any tricks (any more than there are for dieting or learning a new skill or mastering Call of Duty XII). You get it done by doing it. Putting in the hours. Even when it sucks. Even when you hate it. Even when you'd rather dip your face in a bowlful or scorpions than face that thrice-damned little blinking line on your computer screen.

You do it anyway. Like exercise. Like martial arts forms. Like lay-up drills. Like essays on post-colonial literature.

I'll tell you a secret: almost no one likes to write. Just like almost no one likes to exercise. People like to HAVE EXERCISED. And just the same, people like to have written. And the ones that hit the gym when their feet are tired are thin and fit and enjoy the benefits. And the ones that sit down to write when their mother just yelled at them and their friends are bad-mouthing them on Facebook are writers and enjoy the benefits.

And, like exercise (and drills and kata and essays) the more you do it, the easier it gets until you dig down beneath the effort and find the joy of hard-won proficiency. There's no way to get there except by working at it, because it's the work itself that creates it. There aren't any shortcuts, but I'll tell you now that all the time I've spent with my shoulder to the millstone grinding and grinding is nothing but a fart in a windstorm compared to even a single hour of the pure white-hot ecstasy that the act of writing gives me when it's good and real and true.

Anyway. Sorry about the rant. Bad habit.

tl;dr - The important part is the re-writing. Just lay it down, no matter how crappy it is. Remind yourself that everyone else's first draft (with only a few notable exceptions) sucks just as badly. Grind until it's done. Put it in a box, think about something else for a while. Come back to it. And then see what's what.

Dogmantra
2010-05-18, 12:43 PM
One thing you have got to remember in amongst all the "Re-write!" advice, which is perfectly good advice, is that some things will be perfect already. Some things, and the amount depends on how good you are at writing (and not re-writing, which is the more important skill), will be just fine. It's okay if you read the entire book afterwards and see you have maybe two or three sentences per chapter that you think are just perfect: the average writer will get around that many first time along. Just be sure that you're not too afraid to cut them if you need. It's no good having one perfect sentence and the rest of the paragraph that just doesn't work. By all means try to work them into somewhere else, but don't force them, and remember that by the time you're done, you shouldn't be able to find those sentences by quality alone.

truemane
2010-05-18, 12:56 PM
One thing you have got to remember in amongst all the "Re-write!" advice, which is perfectly good advice, is that some things will be perfect already.

This is what we mean when we say that re-writing is the key skill. You put the thing in a box for a month or two and you take it out and you read it. And some things will be good. And some not so good. And some will be good, but not just good enough. Some will be excellently-fantastical-delicious, but just not right for what you're going for, and after a long, agonizing struggle you'll delete it, crying to yourself the entire time.

And then some people will tell you that something is awesome, and they'll be wrong. And some people will tell you something sucks, and they'll be wrong. And some of them will disagree and some say suck and some say sweet.

So what happens when ten people tell you that the one part that's the centre of the entire experience is bad and needs to go? Listen to them? Stick to your guns? No one knows your book like you do, so you should never fully trust anyone else's opinion. But then, as the writer, you're the most biased, and so you should never trust your own opinion either.

And so you have to take all that stuff and roll it around in your head and make use of it in some constructive fashion. It's hard. Not everyone can do it. But that's what re-writing is.