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Ralasha
2010-05-17, 07:45 AM
A 3.x Resource.

Background:
The Varangian Warriors were the elite warriors of Miklagaard, also known as Byzantium, and before that Alexandria. They were renowned for their prowess in battle, and their great feats of endurance, taking wounds that would easily have killed lesser men. Their prowess in battle led to them being offered work as the Royal Guard of the Byzantian Emperor. In subsequent battles over the next twenty years their reputation became so well known that the enemies of that once great city avoided attacking it directly, as one might avoid contracting plague.
One of the details of their reputation was their unique style of fighting. They would often use one of the two following strategies. Charge into battle with sword and shield, or axe and shield. Or hurl their axe or sword first, then charge in with their other weapon, and their shield. When charging into battle with their shield on, rather than throwing their axe or sword first, they would drop their shield as soon as it became damaged, or got in the way. Then they would quickly grab their other weapon, and begin laying about them.
This was in fact, so effective that legend has it they could each individually kill a hundred men a piece before being felled.
Thus: my inspiration.

Requirements:
BAB: +6
Weapon Focus (Any One-Handed Sword, and Battle Axe or Dwarven War Axe), Weapon Specialization (Any One-Handed Sword, and Battle Axe or Dwarven War Axe), Endurance, and Diehard, Shield Focus.
Race: Human.
Alignment: Any non-chaotic. A varangian is a sworn warrior, similar to a knight, though less exacting. A chaotic character is simply incapable of the dedication required to become one. If ever a varangian becomes chaotic, they retain the abilities of this class, but gain an experience penalty of 50% and cannot gain any further levels until they atone, and correct their alignment. Their oath is a sacred one.

The Varangian Warrior
{table]Level | BAB | FS | RS | WS | Special
1st| +1 | +2 | +0 | +2 | Two Weapon Fighting, Shield Sling, Throw Weapon
2nd| +2 | +3 | +0 | +3 | Two Weapon Defense, Improved Shield Bash
3rd| +3 | +3 | +1 | +3 | Mettle, Uncanny Dodge
4th| +4 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Improved Two Weapon Fighting
5th| +5 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Improved Two Weapon Defense
6th| +6 | +5 | +2 | +5 | Improved Uncanny Dodge
7th| +7 | +5 | +2 | +5 | Greater Two Weapon Fighting
8th| +8 | +6 | +2 | +6 | Greater Two Weapon Defense
9th| +9 | +6 | +3 | +6 | Improved Mettle
10th| +10 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Two Weapon Perfection
[/table]

Hit Dice: d10

Class Skills:
The Varangian Warrior's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Class Features:
All of the abilities in the above Table, and the following are Abilities of the varangian Warrior. The varangian warrior looses the benefit of the Two Weapon Fighting abilities when wearing heavy armor.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Varangian Warrior gains exotic shield proficiency (Arrow Catcher), they gain no other armor or weapon proficiencies.

Elite Warrior: The varangian warrior's base attack bonus stacks with his highest base attack bonus from other classes when determining base attacks per round. In example, a 6 fighter/5 varangian warrior would have 3 base attacks at +11/+6/+1. This benefit does not carry over to other classes the character takes. thus a 5 fighter/2 ranger/4 varangian warrior would have a base attack bonus of +11/+6, because it only accounts for the class granting the highest base attack bonus, in this case, fighter. The character does not loose this benefit if the varangian warriors class base attack bonus goes over the base classes base attack bonus. Half of its class levels (Rounded down) stack with fighter for meeting prerequisits for feats.

Two Weapon Fighting: The varangian warrior gains two weapon fighting as a class feature. At level 4, this improves to improved two weapon Fighting. at level 7 it improves again to Greater Two Weapon Fighting.

Shield Sling: The varangian is full and well used to equipping and unequiping his shield. He can now do it far more quickly. Starting at 1st level the varangian may swap his shield for his offhand weapon, and vice versa. This may be done once per 3 levels in this class per combat on anothers turn, or at will on his own turn.

Throw Weapon: The best defense is a good offense. The varangian warrior may treat any weapon he carries as a throws weapon, dealing the weapons melee damage plus his strength bonus, if any.

Two Weapon Defense: The varangian warrior gains the benefit of Two Weapon Defense at level 2. The bonus increases to +2 at level 5, and to +3 at level 8.

Improved Shield Bash: The varangian warrior retains his Shield Bonus to AC even while attacking with his shield. In addition, the varangian may treat his shield as an offhand weapon.

Mettle: The varangian warrior's is no one to take lightly. Starting at 3rd level he has the ability to withstand fearsome punishment. Whenever a varangian warrior is subject to a Fortitude or Will Save, if he makes the check he suffers no ill effects.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 3rd level, a varangian warrior gains the ability
to react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do
so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught
flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses
his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.
Unlike normal, the varangian warrior does not automatically gain improved uncanny dodge if he already has the uncanny dodge feature from another source.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 6th level and higher, a
varangian warrior can no longer be flanked; he can react to opponents on
opposite sides of him as easily as he can react to a single attacker.
This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the varangian
by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue
levels than the target has class levels.

Improved Mettle: Starting at level 9, whenever the varangian warrior is required to make a Fortitude or Will Save he takes no ill effects when making the save, in addition, even if he fails the save, if the cause has a lesser effect he takes that one. Such as the ray of exhaustion.

Two Weapon Perfection: The varangian warrior has perfected the ways of two weapon fighting. It gains its full base attack bonus to both weapons, with only a -2 penalty on offhand attacks.

Abilities: Strength and Constitution are most important to a varangian, with dexterity being only slightly less so with their restrictions on armor. Intelligence is also important as it gives them additional skills.

New Items:
Exotic Shield: Arrow Catcher; AC Bonus: 3; ACP: -3; Weight: 7 pounds; Cost: 35 Gold
This type of shield is made of a material similar to wicker, made up of severa layers woven in such a way that it is lighter than most shields, and will catch an arrow or a sword that strikes it. Granting a +2 circumstance bonus to disarm attempts, and to resist sunder attempts. It is reinforced with metal rings spaced at intervals in the weave. In the center is a metal boss to protect that hand that supports it, while some may have a length of metal covering the area in front of the arm. Though one like this has an addition +1 to AC, it looses its bonuses to disarm, and the ability to snare arrows.

Xallace
2010-05-17, 10:22 AM
Background:
Background

OK, cool.


Requirements:
BAB: +6
Weapon Focus (Any One-Handed Sword, and Battle Axe or Dwarven War Axe), Weapon Specialization (Any One-Handed Sword, and Battle Axe or Dwarven War Axe), Endurance, and Diehard, Shield Focus.
Race: Dwarf or Human.

Why a racial prerequisite?

Two Weapon Focus feats, two Weapon Specialization feats, Endurance, Diehard, Shield Focus. Seven feats to get in. Well, this is supposed to be a super-elite warrior, so I guess that'll work.


Elite Warrior: The varangian warrior's base attack bonus stacks with his highest base attack bonus from other classes when determining base attacks per round. In example, a 6 fighter/5 varangian warrior would have 3 base attacks at +11/+6/+1. This benefit does not carry over to other classes the character takes. thus a 5 fighter/2 ranger/4 varangian warrior would have a base attack bonus of +11/+6, because it only accounts for the class granting the highest base attack bonus, in this case, fighter. The character does not loose this benefit if the varangian warriors class base attack bonus goes over the base classes base attack bonus.

You don't use the highest BAB of your classes, they all stack. Unless you intended for this feature to change that?


Two Weapon Fighting: The varangian warrior gains two weapon fighting as a class feature. At level 4, this improves to improved two weapon Fighting. at level 7 it improves again to Greater Two Weapon Fighting.

OK. Weapon tree, cool.


Shield Sling: The varangian is full and well used to equipping and unequiping his shield. He can now do it far more quickly. Starting at 9th level the varangian may as a free action, in reaction to another persons action, equip or unequip his shield, and in the same action equip or unequip a weapon in that hand. This may be done once per 3 levels in this class per combat on anothers turn, and any number of times per combat on his own turn.

I thought this was gonna be shield tossing, ala Captain America. Well, let's clean up the wording at the end there. "This ability may be used as a free action at-will on the varangian's turn. Additionally, once per encounter, the varangian may use this ability as an immediate action on an opponent's turn. At 3rd level, 6th level, and 9th level, the varangian can use this ability as an immediate action an additional time per encounter."

Longer, but I feel it's less awkward. Also, the ability description claims you gain this ability at 9th level, and the table claims 2nd.


Throw Weapon: The best defense is a good offense. The varangian warrior may treat any weapon he carries as a thrown weapon, dealing the weapon's melee damage plus his strength bonus, if any.

You gain the "Throw Anything" feat.


Two Weapon Defense: The varangian warrior gains the benefit of Two Weapon Defense at level 2. This improves at level 5, and again at level 8.

Improves to what?


Improved Shield Bash: The varangian warrior retains his Shield Bonus to AC even while attacking with his shield. In addition, the varangian may treat his shield as an offhand weapon.

OK.


Mettle: The varangian warrior's is no one to take lightly. Starting at 3rd level he has the ability to withstand fearsome punishment. Whenever a varangian warrior is subject to a Fortitude or Will Save, if he makes the check he suffers no ill effects.

Useful.


Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 3rd level, a varangian warrior gains the ability
to react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do
so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught
flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses
his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.
Unlike normal, the varangian warrior does not automatically gain improved uncanny dodge if he already has the uncanny dodge feature from another source.

Wait, why not?


Improved Mettle: Starting at level 6, whenever the varangian warrior is required to make a Fortitude or Will Save he takes no ill effects when making the save, in addition, even if he fails the save, if the cause has a lesser effect he takes that one. Such as the ray of exhaustion.

I think the wording could be cleaned up a bit; but OK, pretty useful.


Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 6th level and higher, a
varangian warrior can no longer be flanked; he can react to opponents on
opposite sides of him as easily as he can react to a single attacker.
This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the varangian
by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue
levels than the target has class levels.

Standard.


Two Weapon Perfection: The varangian warrior has perfected the ways of two weapon fighting. It gains its full base attack bonus to both weapons, with only a -2 penalty on offhand attacks.

Now that's useful!



Alignment: Any non-chaotic. A varangian is a sworn warrior, similar to a knight, though less exacting. A chaotic character is simply incapable of the dedication required to become one. If ever a varangian becomes chaotic, they retain the abilities of this class, but gain an experience penalty of 50% and cannot gain any further levels until they attone, and correct their alignment. Their oath is a sacred one.

As a prestige class, this should be mentioned in the Pre-reqs.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Varangian Warrior gains exotic shield proficiency (Arrow Catcher), they gain no other armor or weapon proficiencies.

This should be mentioned before the class features, or as a class feature.


New Items:
Exotic Shield: Arrow Catcher; AC Bonus: 3; ACP: -3; Weight: 7 pounds; Cost: 35 Gold
This type of shield is made of a material similar to wicker, made up of severa layers woven in such a way that it is lighter than most shields, and will catch an arrow or a sword that strikes it. Granting a +2 circumstance bonus to disarm attempts, and to resist sunder attempts. It is reinforced with metal rings spaced at intervals in the weave. In the center is a metal boss to protect that hand that supports it, while some may have a length of metal covering the area in front of the arm. Though one like this has an addition +1 to AC, it looses its bonuses to disarm, and the ability to snare arrows.

Is the ability to snare the same as the disarm and sunder bonuses? Or are they separate?


Overall: This is a class with the potential to be far more unique than it is. You gain many bonus feats and useful abilities, but it's all stuff we've seen before, and it's nothing that stands out. The prerequisites are especially steep for something like this, some of them don't really mesh with the granted abilities (like Endurance).

With your historical opener, one might expect charge-themed abilities, axe-and-sword combo attacks, or abilities meant for taking on crowds ("kill[ing] a hundred men a piece"). Things like that.

Ralasha
2010-05-17, 10:36 AM
Counter Arguments:

Elite Warrior:
Normal rules: fighter 6 WM 10; BAB: +16/+11
Elite Warrior: Fighter 6 VW 10: +16/+11/+6/+1

The uncanny dodge doesn't stack in order to grant a little extra balance to the class. Racial Reqs for legend reasons, the only warriors to fight in this way were Dwarves and Humans by Runic Mythology. Upon which this and the original form of D&D are based.

Shield Sling: I forgot to edit it after modifying the tables.

Throw Weapon: Not throw anything, you can't hurl say... a cart. Whereas with Throw anything, you can.

Shield: the chance of snaring an item is being play tested, it will however, be used as an attack of opportunity, by rules, when someone attacks you while holding that shield. It will be a disarm check. After which you'll want to drop the shield, because it will cause you penalties. All of this is being play tested later today, then updated.

Imperial Guards, Elite Warriors, not Hoard Walls.

For Hoard Wall: See related Varangian Spearmen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152754)

Thank you for your commentary.

*Updated the PrC. Human Only. (Humans have so very few of their own PrCs that no one else can take.)

Tavar
2010-05-17, 10:43 AM
Elite Warrior:
Normal rules: fighter 6 WM 10; BAB: +16/+11
Elite Warrior: Fighter 6 VW 10: +16/+11/+6/+1


This is wrong. A Barbarian5/Ranger5/Fighter 6 has the same BaB and attack routine as a Figher 16; 16/11/1.

Ralasha
2010-05-17, 10:47 AM
Truly? My DM's are dumbasses then, whom go by letter rather than spirit. Since they all seem to seek to **** you however they can. Else they are just asses.

*

This is wrong. A Barbarian5/Ranger5/Fighter 6 has the same BaB and attack routine as a Figher 16; 16/11/1.

You forgot an attack at 6... goes between the 11 and the 1. >.>

*Since some DM's like to be like this, as stated above, I will leave that detail there, for those of us not lucky enough to have DMs that don't do so.

Tavar
2010-05-17, 10:50 AM
Umm...no. They're going by neither. RAW is very clear on this matter. BaB's perfectly stack, and when the primary side reaches 16, 11, or 6, you get another attack.

Ralasha
2010-05-17, 10:51 AM
WTF? I read this term RAW quite often, mind explaining without TLAs?

Tavar
2010-05-17, 10:53 AM
Rules As Written.

Ralasha
2010-05-17, 10:58 AM
Ah, thank you.http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b131/cheetachaser/onegai.gif
Table vs. List discrepancies fixed.

lightningcat
2010-05-17, 06:51 PM
Rules As Written.

Don't forget its counterpart, RAI: Rules As Interpreted.

Ralasha
2010-05-17, 09:26 PM
Indeed, as they go by RAI apparently, but this is off topic.

Tavar
2010-05-17, 09:33 PM
No, they go by house rules. Rules as interperted refers to grey areas in the rules that need to be, well, interpreted. This isn't one of those; it's a house rule, and one of dubious merit, shafting Melee even more than it already was.

Ralasha
2010-05-17, 09:38 PM
Yes, because there is no way that that barbarian can kill that mage... oh wait.

Tavar
2010-05-17, 09:43 PM
Yes, because there is no way that that barbarian can kill that mage... oh wait.

Uhh...actually, yeah. The wizard can be flying and invisible. The Barbarian's got nothing against that, and we've barely even scratched what the Wizard can do.

Temotei
2010-05-17, 09:56 PM
Yes, because there is no way that that barbarian can kill that mage... oh wait.

Barbarian: I can hit things...hard!
Wizard: I can kill things...err...dead. And not take any damage. And still have spells to spare for another fight against the same dragon. Twice. :smalltongue:

Note: That's probably an unoptimized wizard speaking.

Lyndworm
2010-05-18, 12:03 AM
Throw Weapon: Not throw anything, you can't hurl say... a cart. Whereas with Throw anything, you can.
Actually, you have to be proficient with the weapon you throw. Unless you manage to gain proficiency with carts, you cannot throw them with Throw Anything. At the very least, you should put in a range increment for Throw Weapon.

Also, I suggest giving them an ability like that of the Hurling Charge feat, from the Miniature Handbook. It requires the Quickdraw feat (which would make a lot of sense as a prerequisite, what with all of the weapon and shield swaps) and BAB +6. It lets you attack with a thrown weapon during a charge, and then end the charge with a melee attack as usual.

Ralasha
2010-05-18, 01:51 AM
There are already rules in place in the core rule books for thrown weapon, which have a standard distance of 30'. Small: 20' Large: 40'.

If they want Hurling Charge, they can spend the feat. If you can do so much better, then you make a version of this class, of course, it will be the imitation, even if it is better. If I am so unoriginal, than why did you not create this class? Are you less creative?

There is an additional restriction upon this class feature, where one can only throw their axe or sword. Thus its wording.

Rithaniel
2010-05-18, 02:50 AM
Wizards: This is going to hurt (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Forcecage), a lot (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Wish). On the bright side (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Mage%27s_Disjunction), you'll be dead soon (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Shapechange).

Barbarians: I can't break through a force effect unless I use something I got from a caster, but, even if I did have an item a caster gave me to break down that cage, I'd be perceived as a threat, and get wished into non-existance before I got to take another action. Course, even if they didn't have wish, they could just Disjunction all of my items, leaving me without any magical help, and then forcecage me again. Even if they had none of these spells, the guy could very easily shapechange into a Pit Fiend and spam 'Blasphemy' till the cows came home.



Melee is very openly.... how to put this.... 'pathetic'.

If you want a halfway competent melee character, you need to give a HUGE push to that region, and even then, if you're remaining in just the realm of 'I hit it again', you likely will never be on-par with a caster of any sort (Not taking into account things like the Paladin or the Warmage, since you can't actually can't call them casters when compared to the Wizard or the Cleric).

Course, you seem pretty new to this (If you aren't, then, my honest mistake, you didn't seem to even know how BAB worked), so, this could be viewed as an 'orientation'.

EDIT: As a side note, this PrC doesn't currently result in a competent melee character, could use some work. If you'd like advice or a point-by-point critique, I'm more than willing to oblige.

Hyooz
2010-05-18, 03:23 AM
Wow, you're an angry one, aren't you?

Iferus
2010-05-18, 03:33 AM
I don't think you should listen to rithaniel - just because casters are/can be broken, doesn't mean the rest should be so as well.

In terms of the tier system for PrC's (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0), this one would be tier 0. For a melee class, tier +1 is good. You could improve the class' power by giving it an ability to leave threatened spaces while wielding two weapons and some ability to do more attacks on a single attack of oppertunity. That would be very Varangian.


On a side note: I can't help hearing this music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFBIr3Vx16w)in my head whenever I read the word varangian.

Rithaniel
2010-05-18, 04:16 AM
Well, I'm not suggesting that everything be broken. I am simple saying that things need to be competent at what they do. Which the vast majority of melee characters, aren't (not when compared to a caster, but, when compared to a melee creature of their CR, they can barely even do comparable damage in the early levels).

For example: Remorhaz versus an ecl 7 Fighter.

IMO, at level 15 or so, doing about 100 damage a pop, having an answer to an interesting array of problems, and doing some just neat tricks, would be competence. Of course, it's a pretty big stretch to have a standard melee character fill those shoes (even with extensive optimization).

This PrC doesn't really give much means towards that goal.

Most of what I was going on about, was to signify that casters are the most powerful things in the entire game (short of certain creatures, like, idk, angels), as the OP seemed to not realize.

I generally enjoy a game where people are actually capable of doing something, whether or not they really put a ton of effort into optimization. Even in these cases, melee characters require a HUGE push.

Ralasha
2010-05-18, 04:20 AM
I wish I had the ability to ban certain users from my threads.

Rithaniel
2010-05-18, 04:25 AM
I wish I had the ability to ban certain users from my threads.

No need to be insulting, just trying to offer you some pointers, or a little something known as 'help'.

Iferus
2010-05-18, 05:18 AM
The point is that what you're saying is not helpful. We all know casters are of a completely different level of power, and you don't see us rambing on about that. This PrC is coherent with it's peers, and therefore balanced. DnD 3.x is broken, and we all accept that, or houserule some fixes. Personally, I have downgraded the casters.

Ralasha
2010-05-18, 05:54 AM
I use a spellpoint variant in order to limit their casting. like, if you're level 5 and cast magic missile, in order to increase the number of missiles you have to pay a number of spellpoints equal to the ammount fo caster level. So 2, just to increase it to 2 missiles. it can get quite excessive, and aids in limiting a caster. It ends up quite balanced.

If I was going for 'game start. I win' I would make my Mourning Lord. -.- Walk into a room, know who the badguy is, kill him, adventure ends.
'experience please'.

demidracolich
2010-05-18, 08:10 AM
Well, to balance melee with casters, there is a homebrew called tome of war which raises melee to the level of optimized wizards. The samurai, one of the weakest classes in there, gets an at will auto hit auto kill attack and can sunder spells. Its weak because it doesn't have as many bonus feats, the feats are better than any maneuvers and are constant.

Tavar
2010-05-18, 11:14 AM
Does it limit non-blasting spells in any way? If not, then it's not limiting the most powerful options.


As for originality, we haven't build a class like this because it it doesn't seem necessary. It doesn't address any of the problems Melee has, and actually funnels them down a suboptimal path, without giving them anything to improve it.

Rithaniel
2010-05-18, 01:41 PM
Alright, partially due to myself, this forum has come a little off-topic. So, I'm splitting my post into two parts, the part that is likely irrelevant to the OPs class (which is just below, in the spoiler), and stuff that might actually help the OP out (which is a little further down).

(Stuff that has gone a little off-topic)

(As I already said, I was simply pointing out the things about the casters because the OP seemed ignorant to the fact. If he wasn't, then, yes, there was no point to my posting, but, it was an honest mistake.)

Also, demidracolich, if you're talking about what I think you're talking about, I think it's called 'Races of War', and those classes still likely don't compete with a strong caster. They are a bit more than competent, all the same, and I could understand a person dissallowing them (iirc, the Samurai had an ability to turn any successful hit into a confirmed critical X times a day, the ability to cut through a force effect, and the ability to turn their weapon into a vorpal weapon. Not half shabby). Yes, though, those feats were pretty good.

One misconception I've been noticing a lot of people have about casters, though, is that having a strong one in a game will end it. I have played several games with 'top notch' casters (one Wizard/Archivist/Mystic Theurge in particular was pretty well built (good spells)), just because they are strong, or can twist the battlefield to their liking, doesn't mean they can't be dealt with. There are several constructs which are just blatantly magic immune. Give such a creature the ability to teleport via class levels or something, on top of their construct immunities, and you've already stumped most mid-level casters. Better yet, just toss another castery sort at them. Mind Blank is also a painful option to set against a caster.

As I've already said, I generally enjoy a game where the players can do something. Because of this fact, I generally am displeased with caster nerfing, as it's taking away the entire parties ability to pull themselves out of the ****-tank, in case they find themselves there.

(Stuff that is on-topic)

Mettle and Uncanny Dodge are good staple abilities, but, keep in mind, there are already several ways to get those abilities while still getting other things you want, like maneuvers (especially if you take in homebrew). Meanwhile, this class has the uncanny ability to TWF with a sword and a shield (or even two shields), but, winds up being redundant with itself (Two-Weapon Defense on top of Shield Sling? It's like the character can't make up his mind where he wants that bonus to AC to come from). Also, while the character is fully capable of TWF with those things, he likely wont be able to hold his own as the front-line character that most melee-types find themselves being. The guy likely can't do decent damage, tbh, as the shield bash damage is so low, and he's got to try and stretch with even more feats to get to a place where he wants to be (the place where he's dealing noticable damage to the things that are trying to kill his friends). I'd recommend offering this class some "Hey, I've got something that's bigger than yours, guess what it is" ability, like, "yadda yadda yadda, wounding enhancement on your weapons when your TWF", or "yadda yadda yadda immunity to critical hits when weilding a shield", or even "yadda yadda yadda never affected by a miss chance".

demidracolich
2010-05-18, 04:33 PM
Nope, its different. Also I found out that the barbarian in there has a permanent anti magic field that does not affect himself. Feats include manticore parry except better at will and one that combines the entire two weapon fighting tree and a whole bunch of other feats into one.

Ralasha
2010-05-18, 08:35 PM
Updated so that it may continue taking fighter feats. (At a slightly lower rate)

Mongoose87
2010-05-18, 09:51 PM
Since they're supposed to be great at fighting masses of enemies, perhaps a bonus to damage based on how many enemies currently threaten them?

Tavar
2010-05-18, 09:51 PM
So...it has the ability to take some of the weakest feats, but lacks the ability to take the ones that actually do something...Wow. That's useless.

Ralasha
2010-05-18, 10:27 PM
Hey, better than not being able to take them at all, besides, level 10 fighter, level 10 Varangian Warrior won't actually have that problem, also, the Warrior isn't a horde fighter, I already said that in an earlier post. The Varangian Spearman is the Horde Fighter.

Tavar
2010-05-18, 10:31 PM
So, if this isn't a horde fighter, what is it?

Ralasha
2010-05-18, 11:07 PM
One of these will work well, but they are more akin to a guard, like the dwarven defender, than a horde fighter. As I said, if you want a Horde Fighter look at the spearman version.

Ralasha
2010-05-18, 11:15 PM
Working on a Melee Class that will not have the drawbacks of a standard melee class. On the other hand, while it will be decent in melee, it will not be as specialized as a fighter, or a monk. (OOps, sorry for the dp)

I feel at this time, that I should point out, I run people to test my stuff before I post it on here, and yes, the Varangian makes a very good front line fighter. This goes for both the Warrior and the Spearman.

Tavar
2010-05-18, 11:16 PM
Well, at the moment, then it stinks. It has no abilities that let it guard someone, and it doesn't really pose a threat.

Ralasha
2010-05-18, 11:17 PM
I beg to differ. But since your only comments are insults, mind if I report you and see if someone can do something about how you and others keep trying to drag this off topic?

Tavar
2010-05-18, 11:21 PM
You've said you want them to be guards. Well, a guard has to be a threat to attackers, or have some method of drawing them away from the target. How does this class preform either one of those?

Ralasha
2010-05-18, 11:26 PM
It isn't a mage, a warrior of any kind is not intended to be a mage. a mage is a mage, a warrior is a warrior, and any attempts I have seen at mixing the two just suck. It is intended to fight intruders that can't sling fireballs around the battle field, for such intruders, it is more than capable.

It is after all, comparable to a Dwarven Defender, as was my intention.

Tavar
2010-05-18, 11:31 PM
How is anything I said counter to that? A barbarian comes in to kill the thing you're protecting. How can this class stop it? Or stop most CR appropriate threats?

I'm not judging it based on casters. I'm judging it based on Melee classes, and find it lacking. Barbarian blows it out of the water, and even a straight fighter or ranger would probably do better. So the PrC is worse than the entry base classes at it's supposed niche. That's what I call bad design.

Temotei
2010-05-18, 11:47 PM
Forum rules are our friends. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1)

It seems like you're trying to make a mish-mash prestige class...kind of a fighter using all types of fighting styles.

Which is a bad idea for a prestige class. Focus on Two-Weapon Fighting with two shields, letting their shield bonuses stack for AC and let the class grant a sort of provocation ability or something, similar to the viking in Final Fantasy.

Alternatively, allow a shield bash to force an enemy into attacking you unless they succeed on a Will save of DC 10 + class level + Cha modifier.

Ralasha
2010-05-19, 12:27 AM
Those are great ideas, make your own class. They go against what I built. As I said, it has already been tested. It is not a mish mash. try testing it yourself.

Temotei
2010-05-19, 12:31 AM
Those are great ideas, make your own class. They go against what I built. As I said, it has already been tested. It is not a mish mash. try testing it yourself.

How posting a class on here and saying, "It's tested, so it's good" accomplishes anything, I'll never know.

If I wanted to make a class like that, I'd do it. Then again, I'd rather play Krimm's favored guardian prestige class than play a guardian class I create on my own. :smallsigh:

I'd personally love to see the playtesting in action.

Tavar
2010-05-19, 12:32 AM
So, care to reveal how it deals with threats? Or in any way, shape, or form accomplishes it's goal of protecting someone?

Pechvarry
2010-05-19, 02:06 AM
Remove Weapon Specialization x2 from pre-reqs. If you want to put in a requirement of fighter level 4+ instead, so be it. But that's a lot of feats to get into the class. Also, I don't know what "Shield Focus" is.

Abilities: a lot of bonus feats! something like 5 in the 1st 2 levels. I don't mind that -- it'll take a while to get into the class and it's not like even 10 bonus feats can really break a character. I see what you're getting at with the uncanny dodge not stacking, but it's not necessary. Let it stack if the players are resourceful enough to get it twice. It's not unbreakable.

Improved Mettle is an exceedingly potent ability. This alone tells me that despite what you think about your own class, this thing can do pretty decently against a lot of mage tricks. With Endurance as a prereq and removing 2x weapon specializations, suddenly the player has the prereqs and the feats open for Steadfast Concentration, to more likely shrug off mind control. Which is, of course, the bane of the melee who's protecting the casters.

Swell how that worked out. Unless you're only running Byzantine battle simulations with no casters and bronze equipment.

I like the capstone -- if I'm to understand it right, it doesn't help someone fighting with light weapons, but makes heavier TWFers fight on the same level. It's a nice ability and as the only unique feature, makes a good capstone... but I can't help but think it should be much earlier. Somewhere in the level 3-5 range would be better for living to the high levels.

You're still a dual-wielder with not much extra sources of damage, and you still lack methods of area denial. As with the dwarven defender, this means you're only a deadly tank in very narrow corridors. Shield Sling can almost do this in a pinch, since it's a ranged take-down. Maybe a mid-level ability to Shield Sling as an Immediate Action? Thus, someone trying to get by them would get a shield in the face, knocking them flat.

Since it gets so many bonus feats, why not Stand Still as well (somewhere on this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#) page - don't worry, it's not psionic)?

I don't think any of that goes against the flavor you've set forth.

---

Btw, you DO know what PEACH means, don't you? It doesn't mean "good idea, make your own class." Show some good form, please.

Ralasha
2010-05-19, 05:17 AM
Remove Weapon Specialization x2 from pre-reqs. If you want to put in a requirement of fighter level 4+ instead, so be it. But that's a lot of feats to get into the class. Also, I don't know what "Shield Focus" is.
Shield Focus is a feat that increases your defense bonus from shields. Thus a TWF would actually get a +4 from this classes TWF feats.


I like the capstone -- if I'm to understand it right, it doesn't help someone fighting with light weapons, but makes heavier TWFers fight on the same level. It's a nice ability and as the only unique feature, makes a good capstone... but I can't help but think it should be much earlier. Somewhere in the level 3-5 range would be better for living to the high levels.

And then it wouldn't be a capstone, I might also point out, it is actually an epic level feat. Also, light weapon wielders don't normally get 10/12 attacks a round. even if TWF. This class does.


You're still a dual-wielder with not much extra sources of damage, and you still lack methods of area denial. As with the dwarven defender, this means you're only a deadly tank in very narrow corridors. Shield Sling can almost do this in a pinch, since it's a ranged take-down. Maybe a mid-level ability to Shield Sling as an Immediate Action? Thus, someone trying to get by them would get a shield in the face, knocking them flat.

Want extra sources of damage, use feats. Also, try reading, Shield Sling has nothing to do with that. Maybe you should look to your own commentary before attacking someone elses.
-----------------------------
In so far as commentary I am looking for, I already got it. All of this is extraneous, and erroneous to me. Why, yes Gunther, I do know what PEACH means, it doesn't mean 'please tell me why casters will ruin my life.'. Yet, alas such commentary is almost the only thing I have yet seen. You at least have made an attempt at being helpful, thank you. [/end observations] I am done with this thread.

-----------------------------
And oh, how nifty, you noticed its a fighter PrC. Of course, there are ways of gaining Weapon Specialization without being a fighter as well you know. Perhaps you don't.

Mongoose87
2010-05-19, 08:00 AM
You're really not getting the criticism. It's nothing to do with mages.

Suppose you're defending a noble. A mounted fighter charges by you to kill the noble. You have no abilities whatsoever that make you more qualified to stop him than the next fighter. Yeah, maybe you can lay the smack down after your noble is dead, but you don't have any tripping, disarming, anything that will stop the kill.

Tavar
2010-05-19, 10:25 AM
You're really not getting the criticism. It's nothing to do with mages.

Suppose you're defending a noble. A mounted fighter charges by you to kill the noble. You have no abilities whatsoever that make you more qualified to stop him than the next fighter. Yeah, maybe you can lay the smack down after your noble is dead, but you don't have any tripping, disarming, anything that will stop the kill.

Exactly. Try reading my last post, it made exactly the same point.

Sir_Chivalry
2010-05-19, 11:25 AM
Okay, so as far as I can see, this class is situational and requires the enemies to file through a tight hallway to reach him to be effective. Any other time, this fighter can't actually defend someone (and it is just a fighter progression picked out for you with a couple extras).

The extras are nice, Improved Mettle and Improved Uncanny Dodge are well worth going for in a class, but they aren't deal makers.

Shield Focus might do well to be replaced by Shield Specialization, since both do the same thing, but the latter is more accessible to the general GitP schmuck. It's in PHBII, and while you are there, look at Shield Sling, a feat that allows you to throw your shield, not put it on faster. Your Shield Sling could easily be called Quick Strap or Shield Preparedness or something along thost line.

In contrasting a Fighter 10/this PrC 10 to a Fighter 20 (which of course is the only way I can compare it, bearing in mind that a TWFer rogue or Dervish is really the only time this feat tree is beneficial):

Fighter 20 TWF- 7-8 attacks a round, depending if he has a Speed weapon. 18 feats, if he invests in every class feature you have that is a feat, he still has 8 feats (I'm assuming he takes Ambidexterity and Oversized Two-weapon Fighting to recreate two thirds of your capstone in his early levels) and can't duplicate Mettle, Uncanny Dodge or Quick Shield Wearing ability. With those 8 feats, I could take the PHB Weapon Focus chain for either axe and sword, since it would be smarter to favour one type, take Endurance and Diehard to match you, and still have 2 feats left over.

Fighter 10/this PrC 10- 8-9 attacks per round, depending if he has a Speed weapon (assuming Two-Weapon Perfection works like Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting), 12 feats, meaning after taking several feats to qualify, you have 5 feats left if I'm reading right that you need Weapon Focus/Specialization in two different weapons (never a smart idea). With those 5 feats, you could take the rest of the Weapon Focus chain, assuming your levels in this PrC count as fighter levels for feats, and then take, you guessed it, Shield Sling!

Skills are different but inconsequential, hit dice are the same.

If I try simply to match you, your PrC comes out on top, but the key is, besides being a way for a low-dex character to TWF, you're character gets blown out of the water by Dervish/Tempest or a charger. If the oppoent moves, you can't hit him with all your attacks. If you can't hit him with all your attacks, you can fall back on your vaguely useful defenses against magic. And if the opponent is the crazy sort of TWFer who took Pin Shield, it doens't matter how quickly you can don a shield.


In so far as commentary I am looking for, I already got it. All of this is extraneous, and erroneous to me.

I take it that would be commentary going along the lines of "cool class, I'll use it sometime." We'd all love to say that, but the class needs to offer something

I hope you have enjoyed my Evaluation And Honest Critisim, and thank you for saying Please

Tibbaerrohwen
2010-05-19, 12:20 PM
I agree with Mongoose87 and Tavar. If this PrC is supposed to act as a guard it needs a way to actually guard things. You compared this PrC to Dwarven Defender. If that's what you're looking for try using it as inspiration.
Several posters have mentioned that two Weapon Specialization feats make the class too hard to attain based on the payoff from the class. I agree entirely. For this PrC to act as a guard I think it needs some focus. I don't mean to be insulting, but it feels like the class is all over the place. Pick a niche and work with it. There are allot of way to guard someone or something, pick one.
You can't ask for advice and critiques if you aren't going to listen to any of them. I understand you're proud of your creation, but we're saying you can make it better. I hope you listen to the advice of the wise posters above, because their knowledge and experience exceeds yours, and they are trying to help you improve your creations.
Best of luck in the future.

Pechvarry
2010-05-19, 01:32 PM
I was hoping that a fresh poster with some serious (non-caster) critique would break through the hate-bubble but...

Listen, Ralasha.

If you gave me a character sheet that had 10 levels in this class, and all I got to choose were my feats outside of it and said "you're the tank", I would... are you ready for this?

I would use a reach weapon and grab improved trip. That means I'd be ignoring the 7 bonus beats given because they don't do a thing to allow someone to tank in 3.5.

Even if your class is historical, you don't have him performing his historical role in the 3.5 framework.

Nothing to do with spellcasting. Nothing to do with playtesting in your group that thinks melee are too overpowered to get their own iterative attacks >>>>> here's the evidence; show your GM right now (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm) <<<<<

And yes, PEACH means Please Examine And Critique Honestly. {Scrubbed}

Temotei
2010-05-19, 03:57 PM
I honestly wish there was a rule that said I could report you as being a troll by being so horribly rude to anyone who's presented you with an idea.


Name calling, including terms obviously meant in a pejorative sense such as "troll" or "fanboy"


I wish I had the ability to ban certain users from my threads.


Tell a poster to shut up or to stop posting on the current thread.


Use passive-aggressive insults, such as "Anyone who believes that is an idiot," or "I'd call you an idiot, but it's against the rules."


Putting down or insulting ANY play preference, including (but not explicitly limited to) choice of game system, choice of preferred levels, classes, or races, choice of setting, choice of power level, etc. You cannot call another poster a munchkin or make any other disparaging remarks about how they like to play the game. You can express your own preference, you can express why you don't care for their preference, but you can't put someone down for feeling differently.

Just...a quick reference.

Ralasha's probably gone (like he said), but I have to agree with everyone on this topic.

One playtest isn't enough. Honestly, there can never be enough playtesting. The more, the better. What if that one playtester was presented with encounters tailored to the class? That would skew the results in playtesting.


I hope you listen to the advice of the wise posters above, because their knowledge and experience exceeds yours, and they are trying to help you improve your creations.

No one is more experienced than the collective Playground. :smallamused:

arguskos
2010-05-19, 04:00 PM
One playtest isn't enough. Honestly, there can never be enough playtesting. The more, the better. What if that one playtester was presented with encounters tailored to the class? That would skew the results in playtesting.
That is so stupidly true, you've got no idea. I'm still finding holes and weakness in my works, even after multiple playtests and checks by a vast number of folks.

Mongoose87
2010-05-19, 04:36 PM
If you do come back Ralasha, here's a great idea for a class feature.

At one level, you give him the ability to make attacks of opportunity with both weapons.

At a later level, you allow him to forgo one of those weapons' attacks of opportunity, in a given round, to count as having reach for AoOs.

At another level, you simply count as having reach for AoOs.

At tenth level, when you hit an opponent with both weapons on an AoO, you make a free bullrush attempt.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-05-19, 04:39 PM
Look what I found - a bodyguard class. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/modern/smack/bodyguard.html)
It's from d20 modern, so it'll need a little tweaking here and there, but I'm sure these class features could be plundered to make this class more guardy.

Iferus
2010-05-20, 02:55 AM
By the way, the Varangians have never guarded Alexandria. They were Scandinavians, following their trade route through Russia

Ralasha
2010-05-20, 03:20 AM
{Scrubbed}