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Skyserpent
2006-05-29, 10:31 PM
Okay, so what would bats do against this? Surfer does not have any real weaknesses (as he is Mary-Sue/Godchar incarnate) so I don't think that extra prep time can allow him to beat the herald of Galactus...

ed
2006-05-29, 10:50 PM
distract him with a twinkie?

no, wait...sorry, that's from when spidey faced off against galactus. my bad. :>

ed

Rex_Hondo
2006-05-30, 01:54 AM
I think that's when Bats stats hitting every button on his speed-dial.

Alchemistmerlin
2006-05-30, 02:27 AM
Silver Surfer has no qualms about killing.


Bats is incinerated 1st round. Not even a pile of dust is left.

No question about this, Bat-brain has no chance.

sun_tzu
2006-05-30, 04:27 AM
Direct confrontation? Batman's toast.
If Silver Surfer doesn't know where he is? Since SS has no special "find" power, Bats can plan. Assuming he can't just call the rest of the JLA to help him...I'd assume he'd lure SS into a trap. Not a trap to beat him; a trap to study him, and figure out HOW to beat him (remember "JLA: Babel"? He's good at figuring out how to take out super-powered foes).
So, advantage to SS, but Batman has a small chance.

Alchemistmerlin
2006-05-30, 04:41 AM
Direct confrontation? Batman's toast.
If Silver Surfer doesn't know where he is? Since SS has no special "find" power, Bats can plan. Assuming he can't just call the rest of the JLA to help him...I'd assume he'd lure SS into a trap. Not a trap to beat him; a trap to study him, and figure out HOW to beat him (remember "JLA: Babel"? He's good at figuring out how to take out super-powered foes).
So, advantage to SS, but Batman has a small chance.


He...he really doesn't. Silver Surfer has no real weakness. Any kind of trap that Batman might set up to "Study him" would just lead to Batman staring at a blur of silver before it moves off at the speed of light, returning perhaps later to blast the area with the power cosmic just to make sure.

Usually I can go "yeah it's a superhero fight, winning is in the eye of the viewer because of favorite heros" but...this one is really really one sided.

Rex_Hondo
2006-05-30, 05:18 AM
But Batman would...

He could...


Nope, got nothin'.

Not being familiar with Silver Surfer, what with being from another universe, Batman couldn't tailor a trap that would have a reasonable chance of holding him.

Even if it's Batman in the Marvel universe, where he could conceiveably find the info, he'd be without resources to do anything about it, definitely in what little time Silver Surfer would give him.

Nah, I just don't see a reasonable Batman wins scenario, certainly mano a mano.

CelestialStick
2006-05-30, 07:17 AM
I think that's when Bats stats hitting every button on his speed-dial.

Yup, that's just what Batman does. Then Superman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman and the Flash beat the snot out of Silver Surfer, while Plastic Stretchy Guy and Booster Gold direct traffic, and Batman pulls out the Batlute and sings, "bash, bash, bash the inferior superhero from an inferior universe!" ;)

Alchemistmerlin
2006-05-30, 09:42 AM
Yup, that's just what Batman does. Then Superman, Green Lantern, Wonderwoman and the Flash beat the snot out of Silver Surfer, while Plastic Stretch Guy and Booster Gold direct traffic, and Batman pulls out the Batlute and sings, "bash, bash, bash the inferior superhero from an inferior universe!" ;)


And all the while Squirrel Girl plots their end.


She defeated Dr. Doom and Thanos by herself...

CelestialStick
2006-05-30, 10:05 AM
And all the while Squirrel Girl plots their end.


She defeated Dr. Doom and Thanos by herself...
I thought you were kidding, but I looked up Squirrel Girl on the internet and sure enough, she's a real comic book character. LOL. Seems to me from looking at her pictures, though, that instead of plotting the end of the JLA she should spend her time plotting a decent wardrobe. ;)

KayJay
2006-05-30, 10:15 AM
She didn't defeat Thanos or Doctor Doom by herself... She had a squirrel helper too!

CelestialStick
2006-05-30, 10:25 AM
She didn't defeat Thanos or Doctor Doom by herself... She had a squirrel helper too!

LOL. I noticed that on the pictures of her.

Alchemistmerlin
2006-05-30, 11:06 AM
Regardless...she kicked doom's metalic rear end.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/Alchemistmerlin/ConfoundtheseRodents.jpg

Skyserpent
2006-05-30, 12:13 PM
I personally prefer Marvel to DC flavor wise. DC just seemed kind of half-assed with their explanations, the stories being more about the powers than the characters, and the power disparity is way to huge between heroes.

Alchemistmerlin
2006-05-30, 12:17 PM
I personally prefer Marvel to DC flavor wise. DC just seemed kind of half-assed with their explanations, the stories being more about the powers than the characters, and the power disparity is way to huge between heroes.


Thing is, Batman shouldn't be in the regular DCU

He's FINE when he's in his element, in Gotham, fighting no-powered or under-powered nutjobs.

When you take him out of that, you have to do silly things to make up for his lack of power.

Skyserpent
2006-05-30, 12:19 PM
Thing is, Batman shouldn't be in the regular DCU

He's FINE when he's in his element, in Gotham, fighting no-powered or under-powered nutjobs.

When you take him out of that, you have to do silly things to make up for his lack of power.

like give him a jetpack, rocket launchers and random technology that if he ever used in Gotham would likely be able to actually wipe out crime? I notice that while Batman may have a "No Guns" Clause in his Superheroism, he does seem to use a lot of high explosives. "Of course I don't use guns, little boomerings packed with enough C4 to HURT GOD are just fine though..."

Alchemistmerlin
2006-05-30, 12:21 PM
He could wipe out quite a bit of crime in Gotham as-is.

He CHOOSES not to.

Nothing can exist without it's opposite. We can have no concept of Dry without Wet, we can have no Male without Female.

We can have no Batman without Joker. That's the real reason Bats doesn't kill the Joker, he NEEDS the Joker so he can convince himself he's doing the right thing, that he's living up to his parent's memory and avenging them properly.

He's got issues.

aaronbourque
2006-05-30, 12:29 PM
Okay, so what would bats do against this? Surfer does not have any real weaknesses (as he is Mary-Sue/Godchar incarnate) so I don't think that extra prep time can allow him to beat the herald of Galactus...
Actually, he does. SS has psychological weaknesses that Batman can exploit. He could probably talk him into suicide, if he felt he needed to.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; I mean, that's why Mephisto is SS's archenemy and not the Amazing Golden Man or whatever gimmick mc-loser analog for a Superman or Flash villain.

Crusher
2006-05-30, 01:16 PM
Have we all forgotten the famous Spiderman vs. Flamelord battle? Flamelord was one of Galactus's heralds after the Surfer bailed on him, and Spiderman was able to defeat him, (just barely and with massive collateral damage) though folks were a tad disbelieving at the outcome.

If Spiderman can just barely do it, then in theory that might mean some slight chance of Batman winning, but only if Batman gets both the element of surprise and lots of prep-time. That's hardly a fair fight. If the tables were turned and the Surfer had the element of surprise on Batman, poor Bats would be atoms before he even knew what was happening.

ed
2006-05-30, 01:27 PM
alchemist merlin: are you into gnostic thought?

crusher: holy cats, i'd forgotten about that issue of MTU! however, if we were to stat flamelord and silver surfer, who'd be of higher level? i'm betting the latter, given that he's supposed to be among the oldest living creatures in the universe, IIRC. those level differences would be relevant here, i would think.

ed

Alchemistmerlin
2006-05-30, 01:33 PM
Have we all forgotten the famous Spiderman vs. Flamelord battle? Flamelord was one of Galactus's heralds after the Surfer bailed on him, and Spiderman was able to defeat him, (just barely and with massive collateral damage) though folks were a tad disbelieving at the outcome.

If Spiderman can just barely do it, then in theory that might mean some slight chance of Batman winning, but only if Batman gets both the element of surprise and lots of prep-time. That's hardly a fair fight. If the tables were turned and the Surfer had the element of surprise on Batman, poor Bats would be atoms before he even knew what was happening.

Problem: Bats doesn't Kill if he can help it.

Surfer de-atomizes with the power cosmic like it was nobody's buisness

Ed: Meh, I'm just into reason. We can't have a concept of "Dry" unless we know what "Wet" is, and vice versa. Because you can't define how dry something is without also defining how wet (or not wet) it is.

ed
2006-05-30, 01:38 PM
i'm not sure i agree, as the ramifications of that stance are that there are no objective truths: merely subjective ones, no?

ed

Alchemistmerlin
2006-05-30, 01:43 PM
i'm not sure i agree, as the ramifications of that stance are that there are no objective truths: merely subjective ones, no?

ed

Maybe,

Read some Hera****us, it's interesting stuff.

Holy_Knight
2006-05-30, 02:43 PM
I think that's when Bats stats hitting every button on his speed-dial.
Well, sure--why assume that whatever plan he comes up with wouldn't involve other superheroes? It would be foolish if it didn't.

KayJay
2006-05-30, 03:59 PM
But then the Surfer calls the rest of his allies from the marvel universe, which he has done on occasion, mainly to combat cosmic level threats.

Alchemistmerlin
2006-05-30, 04:01 PM
Yeah, in come the Fantastic 4, Spidey, the X-men.

And then we've got another cruddy crossover on our hands.

CelestialStick
2006-05-30, 04:20 PM
Thing is, Batman shouldn't be in the regular DCU

He's FINE when he's in his element, in Gotham, fighting no-powered or under-powered nutjobs.

When you take him out of that, you have to do silly things to make up for his lack of power.
This is actually an excellent, concise explanation.



Yeah, in come the Fantastic 4, Spidey, the X-men.

And then we've got another cruddy crossover on our hands.
Are there any decent crossovers, or do you dislike them all?

Alchemistmerlin
2006-05-30, 04:28 PM
I tend to regard them with cynicism.

They tend toward awful.

I <3 Amalgam Comics for their sheer campyness though.

Stick_Rider
2006-05-30, 04:31 PM
First, you have to assume that Bats knows what's coming. The "Surfer Shows up and Destroys Him With a Sucker Punch" scenario isn't a fair fight.

So, given that he knows it's coming, Bats wins. How can I make such an outrageous claim? History.

The Silver Surfer was beaten by Doctor Doom. Not just beaten, but had his powers siphoned off.

If Doom can do it, Bats can do it. Not only that, he can do it better and with more style.

Regardless of whether Squirrel Girl helps him or not.

Alchemistmerlin
2006-05-30, 04:38 PM
First, you have to assume that Bats knows what's coming. The "Surfer Shows up and Destroys Him With a Sucker Punch" scenario isn't a fair fight.

So, given that he knows it's coming, Bats wins. How can I make such an outrageous claim? History.

The Silver Surfer was beaten by Doctor Doom. Not just beaten, but had his powers siphoned off.

If Doom can do it, Bats can do it. Not only that, he can do it better and with more style.

Regardless of whether Squirrel Girl helps him or not.

Wrong.

Bats has no power over/conception of Magic. He's powerless against it because it follows no scientific law. Doom is a powerful magician. Not only that but Doom is SMARTER than Batman, by a lot.

Also, how is "Bats gets eons of prep time and a heads up" any more fair than "Silver Surfer gets the jump on him"?

Stick_Rider
2006-05-30, 04:51 PM
Well, I think the "who is smarter?" (Doom v. Bats) question is fundamentally unanswerable. I think it is fair to say, however, that they are on a par with each other. Even if you are unwilling to yield that point, would you concede that Bats has the Surfer beat in the brains department?

I wasn't saying that Bats needs "eons of time" to prepare. Give them both a day to prepare for each other and I'll still take Bats.

He has the talents to stay hidden until he's ready to strike. He has the resources to discover exactly how Doom did what he did. If it's beyond him, he has the allies to make sure it gets set up properly. Finally, he has an adversary who doesn't have much a track record for clear thinking. Surfer wouldn't go get any Marvel-ous friends. He'd simply track Bats and attack.

I'll take Bats' combination of brains, allies, and a plan over the sheer force of the Surfer.

Daniel_Q
2006-05-30, 04:54 PM
na, na, na, na, na, na, na, Bat-Wank!

I don't care who wins or the debate about it, since i don't really like either side that much, but saying things like-

'If Doom can do it, Bats can do it. Not only that, he can do it better and with more style.'

-that's just too much, That Batman with prep time is teh uber and in your eyes so much better than Doom that such a thing is an obvious conclusion.

'style'? oy vey...
- - -

somewhat off-topic,
http://www.biggercheese.com/index.php?comic=608

there's some language and stuff, but i remembered getting a laugh off these comics and all these versus reminded me of them, there's 8 in a row

Alchemistmerlin
2006-05-30, 04:55 PM
Actually I'm pretty sure that "Good-Surfer"(Since he does change specifically between being The Herald Of Galactus
to being a silver guy with a surfboard,

Good Surfer would go get his pals if he thought that Bats was doing the same. And considering that one of Surfer's pals is Reed Richards (Who I can say beyond a doubt is smarter than bats, come on) I think we're kinda tied up on this one.

I don't even LIKE the silver surfer, he's too trippy for me, but honestly.

Yeah I've seen the Bigger Cheese comics before, I love the part with the fanboy.

KayJay
2006-05-30, 08:08 PM
Reed and Doom are at similar intelligence levels, and both are well beyond Batman's level of intelligence. The kind of feats of intelligence are completely beyond anything I've seen Bruce do, which makes sense as he isn't a god at everything. He has a good understanding of science, but he's not exactly the world's foremost expert on it.
We've seen people like Reed create complex devices from common household appliances in a matter of minutes, we've seen him create items that he patents which would quickly net him millions if he decided to sell them.

Intelligence isn't the only thing that determines a victor, as much as people would want it to be. I agree Batman is more intelligent than the Silver Surfer, but that doesn't imply automatically that Batman will win anything. Obviously if you're going to add Batman's allies that destroys the whole versus concept. That's like saying Perry White could beat the Silver Surfer because he knows Superman who can call on the justice league ::)

nothingclever
2006-05-30, 08:54 PM
Reed and Doom are at similar intelligence levels, and both are well beyond Batman's level of intelligence. The kind of feats of intelligence are completely beyond anything I've seen Bruce do, which makes sense as he isn't a god at everything. He has a good understanding of science, but he's not exactly the world's foremost expert on it.
We've seen people like Reed create complex devices from common household appliances in a matter of minutes, we've seen him create items that he patents which would quickly net him millions if he decided to sell them.

Intelligence isn't the only thing that determines a victor, as much as people would want it to be. I agree Batman is more intelligent than the Silver Surfer, but that doesn't imply automatically that Batman will win anything. Obviously if you're going to add Batman's allies that destroys the whole versus concept. That's like saying Perry White could beat the Silver Surfer because he knows Superman who can call on the justice league ::)
You summed it up perfectly. Batman simply cannot always be claimed to be as smart or smarter than everyone else.

Certain characters have true superhuman beyond comprehension levels of intelligence which is why they are referred to being near omniscient when trying to describe them. Batman is human and being only human his brain will never be able to hold as many or calculate as fast the secrets and sciences/magics of the multiverse.

Reed and Doom although nowhere near being truly omniscient they might as well be when compared to regular humans which Batman is.

Batman is not a genius otherwise he'd be portrayed as a nerd or scientist of some kind and would actually design almost all his own devices instead of having his corporation do it for him.

Some people are geniuses some simply are not.
If Batman were he'd be depicted more like one rather than in reality, a brute force character.

Whamme
2006-05-30, 10:35 PM
Batman uses his corporation for his technology, yes.

He also uses stuff like the Batmobile, etc.

Those things fall directly within the line of his usual power, things he has direct control over.


Calling in friends is one thing. Giving orders to someone you employ is another.

Batman does the WayneCorp (not actual name) thing a lot. It's part of his SOP.


I think him finding a way to use whatever it was Doom did in some way, shape, or form to beat the Surfer is not stepping outside the bounds of a head to head conflict.

(This mostly boils down to 'no, you cannot use resources that would require a crossover event' being the only fair way to do it... I mean, even his dmn utlity belt isn't innate).

Alchemistmerlin
2006-05-30, 10:38 PM
You're assuming that the effects of magic can be replicated with Science...

And as far as I can tell from the Marvel U, Doom's magic can't be replicated with science, that's why he realizes he should give up on technology and turn toward straight magic (And he does)

Spoilers:
That's why he makes a super powerful suit of armor out of his ex-love's flesh using a spell, becuase he realizes it's more powerful than his tech-based-suit.

Rex_Hondo
2006-05-31, 02:02 AM
Well, while Batman not at the same level as Mr Fantastic or Dr Doom, he's still a pretty sharp cookie. *He personally designed a lot of the security systems and other stuff the JLA uses. *However, that's not where he really comes into his own. *

His true strength lies in strategy. *Reed Richards may create insanely powerful tech, but he still defers to Captain America when deciding how best to employ it in a combat situation, and Bats has proven to be Cap's equal many times.

Staying on point, though, still gotta give it to the Surfer...

Crusher
2006-05-31, 08:47 AM
In response to the earlier question, I always thought Surfer>Flamelord. Technically they both probably had the same amount of raw power, but the Surfer has been around a lot longer and is much more experienced at using it.

Also, Flamelord always seemed like a sort of a glass cannon. Very powerful, but somewhat fragile (that kinda goes for the Surfer, too, but less so). Of course, that's only in relative terms. He's plenty tough, maybe just not as tough as you'd expect from someone that powerful.

Stick_Rider
2006-05-31, 09:37 AM
...sigh... I graciously yield to the weight of your combined opinion.

Bats wouldn't, though. He'd still kick Surfer out of the sky. ;D

ObadiahtheSlim
2006-05-31, 10:25 AM
If Dr. Doom could steal Silver Surfer's powers, I'm sure Bats could too.

KayJay
2006-05-31, 10:56 AM
What? That's never been in his repertoire of tricks. he hasn't stolen anyone's powers before, and Doom uses magic (something Batman doesn't really dabble in, although he acknowledges it's existence) and even in terms of scietific intelligence Doom is well beyond even Batman. Unless you are referring to the fact that Bruce is so rich that "anything that could possibly exist in the world can be acquired by him through money/stealing it", I don't see how Batman's going to take the Surfer's powers. And if he did, I recommend he does the same to Darkseid, and a few other baddies.

Crusher
2006-05-31, 11:11 AM
Batman may be a billionaire, but that doesn't mean he can automatically buy/steal anything Doom has managed to do. Not only is there the question of both access to the information and then the prospect of reverse engineering it, but there's also the question of sheer money.

Doom, after all, has an entire country at his disposal. Unless Batman is a Bill Gates-grade billionaire (which I don't think he is. Fabulously wealthy, yes, but country-buying wealthy, no.), his resources are going to be significantly more limited than Doom's.

sun_tzu
2006-05-31, 11:29 AM
Comparing Batman's intelligence to that of Reed/Doom is...iffy. Comic books, like much fiction, often have characters who are supposedly "geniuses", but whose intelligence manifests itself only in science. Bumbling professors, super-inventors who are otherwise morons...the list goes on. Judging from their technical achievements, Reed and Doom should be in the "slightly superhuman intelligence" category; judging from the actual decisions they make, they should be in the "very smart" category. Batman, by instance, goes into the genius category based on strategy; in other fields, his genius manifests in that he's good at everything, without being the new Thomas Edison.
I mean...I don't recall Admiral Thrawn ever inventing a weapon, but I'd call him waaaay smarter than Doom, after seeing them both in action.

Stick_Rider
2006-05-31, 12:39 PM
I wasn't going to respond any more, but now I've been drawn back in. To the point of "just because Doom did it, doesn't mean Bats can"...

Bats is "The World's Greatest Detective" (according to DC) and has been for quite a few decades now. I think it's well within the mythos to suppose that if he's facing a challenge with a known solution, he will be able to quickly uncover it.

Given his resources (billionaire, leader of industry, JLA member, etc.), I think he could implement that solution.

Of course, the real battle would probably go like this:
1) Silver Surfer streaks out of the sky into Gotham
2) Bats appears out of the shadows and says "Not here. Not today." (cue scary music)
3) A small trickle of silver liquid runs down the inside of the Surfer's leg...

There's a whimper, followed by the Surfer leaving.

Bats smiles and disappears.

Daniel_Q
2006-05-31, 01:37 PM
...
You are making some kind of bad joke, right?
I want to be sure, but you never know sometimes.

Alchemistmerlin
2006-05-31, 01:39 PM
I wasn't going to respond any more, but now I've been drawn back in. To the point of "just because Doom did it, doesn't mean Bats can"...

Bats is "The World's Greatest Detective" (according to DC) and has been for quite a few decades now. I think it's well within the mythos to suppose that if he's facing a challenge with a known solution, he will be able to quickly uncover it.

Given his resources (billionaire, leader of industry, JLA member, etc.), I think he could implement that solution.

Of course, the real battle would probably go like this:
1) Silver Surfer streaks out of the sky into Gotham
2) Bats appears out of the shadows and says "Not here. Not today." (cue scary music)
3) A small trickle of silver liquid runs down the inside of the Surfer's leg...

There's a whimper, followed by the Surfer leaving.

Bats smiles and disappears.

Except it would more be like "Not here, not today"

"..." *Blast*
Bats is atomized and disappears.


Like I said, I don't LIKE Silver Surfer, nor do I like Batman, but when you compare "Herald of one who shall help bring the end of all things" to "Sherlock Holmes with a Cape"

Surfer wins.

Be careful, your fanboy is showing :P

nothingclever
2006-05-31, 03:47 PM
I think him finding a way to use whatever it was Doom did in some way, shape, or form to beat the Surfer is not stepping outside the bounds of a head to head conflict.


Well Batman would then have to take on a whole other character to find out how to reverse engineer the technology otherwise he'd need to either learn whatever magic he employed from scratch or hope his contacts can somehow miraculously duplicate the stuff with technology within a day or two. Besides in the first encounter Surfer could simply blast everything around him with the power cosmic meaning the only way Batman could escape to study him later is through teleportation, and amazingly reflexes/luck.

KayJay
2006-05-31, 05:02 PM
I think him finding a way to use whatever it was Doom did in some way, shape, or form to beat the Surfer is not stepping outside the bounds of a head to head conflict.
What I dislike about this quote is how generic it is. It doesn't matter who we refer to or what the action is, something this generic can be applied without fail. You know why it's so generic? Because it sounds like you don't even know what he did. For all you know, it could be powered by live babies being run through a blender, using that as it's fuel.
I don't see the point of arguing when you aren't going to even consider other viewpoints so much that you say Bats would be able to do something, regardless of what the something is.

Steward
2006-05-31, 05:27 PM
I wasn't saying that Bats needs "eons of time" to prepare. Give them both a day to prepare for each other and I'll still take Bats.

I disagree. Batman's powers are directly proportional to how much the writer likes the character and is dependent on the needs of the plot. There is a set parameter that most writers follow but unless there is a really really good reason otherwise Batman won't suddenly manifest the ability to defeat the Silver Surfer with 'style'. Assuming he lives long enough to implement a miraculously successful plan, the Surfer would probably leave him severely injured and in a coma. Unless of course the writer honest-to-goodness manages to plot a way that involves the Surfer not using ANY of his powers to defeat an enemy (I'm assuming that this is a fight to death, in which case both of them probably aren't inclined to mercy in this case). And in that case, I'd really like an explanation for the Surfer to want to die that badly at the hands of Batman.

CelestialStick
2006-05-31, 10:15 PM
There's only one way that Batman can beat Silver Surfer, and it depends on SS announcing that he can travel at nearly the speed of light:

Batman: This town's not big enough for the two of us.

SS: I didn't fly here at nearly the speed of light to be thwarted by a mere mortal. Prepare to meet your maker.

Batman: Very well. I'll race you to the nearest Quasar and back. If you win, you can have the Earth.

SS: Very well. [zip]

Traveling at nearly the speed of light, SS encounters massive time dilation. From his subjective perspective, it takes only a year to get to the nearest quasar and back. In normal space-time, however, trillions of years have passed, the sun has gone nova, and earth no longer even exists.

From Batman's perspective then, SS leaves and never returns. :D

Skyserpent
2006-05-31, 10:20 PM
Silver Surfer may not be the brightest bulb in the Superbox, but he would NOT fall for that... His race was extremely powerful and intelligent before Galactus got the munchies and I think he would be smart enough not to race to a quazar...

Steward
2006-05-31, 10:43 PM
Silver Surfer may not be the brightest bulb in the Superbox, but he would NOT fall for that... His race was extremely powerful and intelligent before Galactus got the munchies and I think he would be smart enough not to race to a quazar...

This is a comic book character. He has the combined intelligence of whoever is writing that particular storyline plus a circumstance modifier if the person has access to Wikipedia. It is possible for the Silver Surfer (or any fictional character) to be convinced to invade the sun if the writer is that bad at character motivations.

Skyserpent
2006-06-01, 02:16 AM
This is a comic book character. He has the combined intelligence of whoever is writing that particular storyline plus a circumstance modifier if the person has access to Wikipedia. It is possible for the Silver Surfer (or any fictional character) to be convinced to invade the sun if the writer is that bad at character motivations.




... granted... but that still is not a compelling argument of why Bats should win.

Holy_Knight
2006-06-01, 02:30 AM
There's only one way that Batman can beat Silver Surfer, and it depends on SS announcing that he can travel at nearly the speed of light:

Batman: This town's not big enough for the two of us.

SS: I didn't fly here at nearly the speed of light to be thwarted by a mere mortal. Prepare to meet your maker.

Batman: *Very well. I'll race you to the nearest Quasar and back. If you win, you can have the Earth.

SS: Very well. [zip]

Traveling at nearly the speed of light, SS encounters massive time dilation. *From his subjective perspective, it takes only a year to get to the nearest quasar and back. *In normal space-time, however, trillions of years have passed, the sun has gone nova, and earth no longer even exists.

From Batman's perspective then, SS leaves and never returns. :D
LOL! :D

Seriously though, Batman's best bet would be to somehow persuade Silver Surfer to stop doing whatever it was that was causing the conflict in the first place. Assuming SS was willing to listen (and I don't know much of the character, but what little I do leads me to believe that he would) I think Batman would have a decent shot of success with that. That could probably count as "defeating" the Silver Surfer for XP purposes. ;)

Rex_Hondo
2006-06-01, 02:58 AM
LOL! *:D

Seriously though, Batman's best bet would be to somehow persuade Silver Surfer to stop doing whatever it was that was causing the conflict in the first place. *Assuming SS was willing to listen (and I don't know much of the character, but what little I do leads me to believe that he would) I think Batman would have a decent shot of success with that. *That could probably count as "defeating" the Silver Surfer for XP purposes. *;)

Yeah, kind of like vs Superman, avoiding being broken down into one's constituent atoms constitutes a victory in and of itself.

Alchemistmerlin
2006-06-01, 03:02 AM
This is a comic book character. He has the combined intelligence of whoever is writing that particular storyline plus a circumstance modifier if the person has access to Wikipedia. It is possible for the Silver Surfer (or any fictional character) to be convinced to invade the sun if the writer is that bad at character motivations.




Yes we all know that Batman is, in general, a practice in mental masturbation for many writers.

However we are not discussing the WRITERS here, we're discussing the characters as though they were real. Why? Well because if you discuss them as fake it'd be much less interesting.

Rex_Hondo
2006-06-01, 03:14 AM
Yes we all know that Batman is, in general, a practice in mental masturbation for many writers.

However we are not discussing the WRITERS here, we're discussing the characters as though they were real. *Why? Well because if you discuss them as fake it'd be much less interesting.

So, how is Batman any different from characters whose powers and power levels shift from month to month? Sometimes Silver Surfer is cracking planets open, and sometimes the Hulk bites his head off. Sometimes Superman falls over when in the same room with a thimbulful of kryptonite, and sometimes he shoves a chunk down his pants just to show off.

NO comic character has ever been universally consistent in how they've been represented, so "pretending they're real" is an exercise in futility, especially since no two people are going to be pretending the exact same power and skill levels.

Alchemistmerlin
2006-06-01, 03:18 AM
So, how is Batman any different from characters whose powers and power levels shift from month to month? Sometimes Silver Surfer is cracking planets open, and sometimes the Hulk bites his head off. Sometimes Superman falls over when in the same room with a thimbulful of kryptonite, and sometimes he shoves a chunk down his pants just to show off.

NO comic character has ever been universally consistent in how they've been represented, so "pretending they're real" is an exercise in futility, especially since no two people are going to be pretending the exact same power and skill levels.


Batman is different because he has 0 power but manages to somehow beat the living snot out of cosmic beings. It's called "author self insert" and Ennis does it with the Punisher as well (Punisher kills Marvel? Come on.)

And if you want to address it from the point of "They aren't real" then:

Who Wins?

The Answer: Whoever the author's favorite is.


Hey, that was an interesting discussion...(Sarcasm meter: 6/10)

You can't go with the "They're in comics" angle because then there is no answer other than the author's answer.

Rex_Hondo
2006-06-01, 03:43 AM
Batman is different because he has 0 power but manages to somehow beat the living snot out of cosmic beings. *It's called "author self insert" and Ennis does it with the Punisher as well (Punisher kills Marvel? Come on.)


And name one time, ONE time when Batman has "beat the living snot out of" a cosmic being. *Outwits and out-strategises, certainly. *Acted as a distraction while the heavy-hitters do their thing, definitely. *But he's never stood alone against a cosmic threat, mostly because he's smart enough NOT to.

You want to say Surfer wins? *Cool, in a toe to toe, I've gotta give Surfer this one. *You don't have to set up silly straw-man arguments just to prove how much you dislike Batman, kiddo.

Alchemistmerlin
2006-06-01, 03:56 AM
And name one time, ONE time when Batman has "beat the living snot out of" a cosmic being. Outwits and out-strategises, certainly. Acted as a distraction while the heavy-hitters do their thing, definitely. But he's never stood alone against a cosmic threat, mostly because he's smart enough NOT to.

You want to say Surfer wins? Cool, in a toe to toe, I've gotta give Surfer this one. You don't have to set up silly straw-man arguments just to prove how much you dislike Batman, kiddo.

Except if you were paying attention, I don't like surfer either, he's too trippy for me.

Also, you're getting a bit defensive as if I were somehow personally attacking you.

It's a comic book character, get over it. He's an author self-insert who has been taken out of his element (Sherlock Holmes with a Cape stories) and put into worlds far to vast for him to manage in (SuperPowered Beings stories) and then munchkined up to legitimize his existance amongst all those superbeings. There is no reason bats should be able to contend with anyone else in the JLA, even if he is VASTLY intelligent, The Flash can move at or past the speed of light, Supes can fly up and lobotomize Bats from a good 50 miles with laser beam eyes, etc.(Well, if it weren't for Gotham's seemingly endless supply of Kryptonite...wtf...)

He's used by his fans as a be-all-end-all and it gets a bit irksome. While I agree that the concept of the character is nice, he is TOO good for what is actually reasonable. Suspension of disbelief in comics is a good thing, but when they tear it off of you ::shrug::

Rex_Hondo
2006-06-01, 04:16 AM
Not at all, I'm just curious how you can seriously argue that the actions of one completely fictional character are somehow less legitimate or more ridicuous than the equally ridiculous exploits of another completely fictional character. *

You aren't arguing the merits of the character. *You're arguing your own personal bias against the character.

Edit: *The stuff that Batman occasionally pulls stretches suspension of disbelief no more than a man who can fly and is invincible just because the sun is yellow, or any other of the patently impossible things done on a regular basis.

I'm just saying, if anybody can seriously say that something character A does is not realistic while character B is flying through hard vacuum in nothing but tights to fight off the invasion from another dimension two panels later... :-/

Holy_Knight
2006-06-01, 04:19 AM
* He's an author self-insert who has been taken out of his element (Sherlock Holmes with a Cape stories) and put into worlds far to vast for him to manage in (SuperPowered Beings stories) *and then munchkined up to legitimize his existance amongst all those superbeings. *There is no reason bats should be able to contend with anyone else in the JLA, even if he is VASTLY intelligent, The Flash can move at or past the speed of light, Supes can fly up and lobotomize Bats from a good 50 miles with laser beam eyes, etc.(Well, if it weren't for Gotham's seemingly endless supply of Kryptonite...wtf...)
Well, I agree in one sense and disagree in another. I don't particulalry like the "cosmic" scale stories to begin with, and one reason why Batman is my favorite character is because he has no superpowers, but instead is a great but mortal detective and martial artist. However, I don't think it's true that he doesn't belong with the rest of the JLA, because the ability to create plans and strategies and solve mysteries is so valuable. To make an analogy, suppose there were a crippled general leading an army. Sure, any of the soldiers could pummel the general in a fight (to say nothing of tanks, etc.), but the general may still be a brilliant tactician, and thus crucial to the army's success.

Alchemistmerlin
2006-06-01, 04:26 AM
Not at all, I'm just curious how you can seriously argue that the actions of one completely fictional character are somehow less legitimate or more ridicuous than the equally ridiculous exploits of another completely fictional character.

You aren't arguing the merits of the character. You're arguing your own personal bias against the character.

Edit: The stuff that Batman occasionally pulls stretches suspension of disbelief no more than a man who can fly and is invincible just because the sun is yellow, or any other of the patently impossible things done on a regular basis.



*Sigh* The reason we suspend our belief for those is because we are told they are Super Human, they have a basis for why they can do that.


When we are blatantly told that Bats is NOT superhuman, so if he does things that are seemingly beyond human capability, it comes across as odd. His very premise is that he's a REALLY good human (He's not even at THE peak of humans like Captain A. is, but he's UP there) and that's ok.

If you want my PERSONAL bias, I can give you that: He's whiny and smugly superior. He has his nose up in the air when dealing with the other superheros. I prefer my heros humble thanks. Plus they "dark and brooding hero" thing gets to me. Ok, we get it, your schtick is THE DARK, you don't need to make it like a 14 year old goth's poetry book.

I really like the OLD batman stuff, and I liked TAS, but some of the stuff really rubs me the wrong way. That's my personal Bias.

You want my Bias against Surfer? He's too out there, his very concept is just too odd. Why would Galactus let him keep the Power Cosmic after Surfer betrayed him?

I'm sure there's more that would rub me wrong about Surfer if I read more of his stuff...Oh and his Game for the NES was terrible :P

KayJay
2006-06-01, 08:35 AM
The stuff that Batman occasionally pulls stretches suspension of disbelief no more than a man who can fly and is invincible just because the sun is yellow, or any other of the patently impossible things done on a regular basis.
Wouldn't agree. We are meant to have an idea of what Superman is capable of already, and flying around and being invincible is in line with what is expected for him, so there isn't that much suspension of disbelief.

Batman, on the other hand, is meant to be just a well trained man who is rich, good at hand to hand, and good at strategising. As long as writers keep him at this level, it doesn't make me do any double-takes. When he starts surpassing that by leaps and bounds for what he's meant to be, then it starts getting suspect.

CelestialStick
2006-06-01, 09:02 AM
Silver Surfer may not be the brightest bulb in the Superbox, but he would NOT fall for that... His race was extremely powerful and intelligent before Galactus got the munchies and I think he would be smart enough not to race to a quazar...
That wasn't really meant to be a serious suggestion. :)





... granted... but that still is not a compelling argument of why Bats should win.
You see, the whole underlying premise of my post is not that Silver Surfer is stupid, but that contrary to the "given time to plan, Batman always wins" silliness, Batman has basically no chance of beating Silver Surfer under any circumstances. ;D That's also why I agreed wholeheartedly with the suggestion that, if confronted by SS, Batman phones his buddies at the JL.

Don't get me wrong, either. I think Silver Surfer is one of the goofiest Superheroes I've ever heard of, and I really like the Batman. But given their powers, however, I have to hand it to SS, aka, Silly Superhero.

Oh, I was also poking fun at the people who said I had my relativistic physics backwards, and then posted a url that demonstrated that they had theirs backwards and I was right in the first place. You pick up a thing or two reading sci fi for 4 decades. ;)





So, how is Batman any different from characters whose powers and power levels shift from month to month? Sometimes Silver Surfer is cracking planets open, and sometimes the Hulk bites his head off. Sometimes Superman falls over when in the same room with a thimbulful of kryptonite, and sometimes he shoves a chunk down his pants just to show off.

I laughed so hard at this that I nearly fell over backwards out of my chair (I actually did that once while DMing and laughing at something one of the players said) and then had an extended coughing fit! ;D

Edit:I just read this again and it's making me laugh out loud again. Best joke evah! ;)





Yeah, kind of like vs Superman, avoiding being broken down into one's constituent atoms constitutes a victory in and of itself.

Indeed. Well said.





Batman is different because he has 0 power but manages to somehow beat the living snot out of cosmic beings. It's called "author self insert"

Good point.





And name one time, ONE time when Batman has "beat the living snot out of" a cosmic being.

Don't you remember the comic where Batman defeated the cosmic being Peanut Butter Man? ;)


Outwits and out-strategises, certainly. Acted as a distraction while the heavy-hitters do their thing, definitely. But he's never stood alone against a cosmic threat, mostly because he's smart enough NOT to.

You want to say Surfer wins? Cool, in a toe to toe, I've gotta give Surfer this one. You don't have to set up silly straw-man arguments just to prove how much you dislike Batman, kiddo.
Now, now. I love Batman and I have to hand this one easily to the Silver Stupor. I think you're accusing Alchemistmerlin unfairly. :)




Well, I agree in one sense and disagree in another. I don't particulalry like the "cosmic" scale stories to begin with, and one reason why Batman is my favorite character is because he has no superpowers, but instead is a great but mortal detective and martial artist. However, I don't think it's true that he doesn't belong with the rest of the JLA, because the ability to create plans and strategies and solve mysteries is so valuable. To make an analogy, suppose there were a crippled general leading an army. Sure, any of the soldiers could pummel the general in a fight (to say nothing of tanks, etc.), but the general may still be a brilliant tactician, and thus crucial to the army's success.
Exceptionally well-argued! Batman can't beat the rest of the league, or indeed its more powerful members, but he can deploy them to make the best use of their many powers and abilities. He knows that the blast that's going to knock Superman back for a few seconds is going to incinerate the Batplane (oh! I totally forgot to menton that I had a cool plastic Batplane with curved Batwings when I was a kid along with all my other Bat-toys!) and that's why Batman punches out (ejects) before he loses yet another expensive Bat-Gadget while Superman withstands the blast so as to prevent most of it from vaporizing the surrounding buildings and innocents within.




Wouldn't agree. We are meant to have an idea of what Superman is capable of already, and flying around and being invincible is in line with what is expected for him, so there isn't that much suspension of disbelief.

Batman, on the other hand, is meant to be just a well trained man who is rich, good at hand to hand, and good at strategising. As long as writers keep him at this level, it doesn't make me do any double-takes. When he starts surpassing that by leaps and bounds for what he's meant to be, then it starts getting suspect.
This too is extremely well-argued. Superman has a 70-year history of flying around being nigh until invincible. Batman has nearly as long a history of being a great detective and urban crime fighter. When martial arts got popular in the US in the 1970s, they changed Batman to give him martial arts mastery. That sort of change just made sense--in an urban environment where badguys know marital arts he would need it to beat them--and didn't change the basic premise of Batmann as a smart, capable human being. He can beat other smart, capable human beings without superhuman powers, like Joker, Riddler, Two-Face, Catwoman, and Penguin. He can even beat someone a bit pumped up, like Bane. (Though with Bane all you really need to do is cut the tubing.:D) He can't take on cosmic level threats, like Peanut Butter Man ;), nor is he supposed to be able to.

Oh, before someone jumps on me about the Catwoman being a "metahuman," I'm talking about before DC wimped out and decided to imitate X-Men with genetic mutations. Sure, I guess now that Catwoman is a "metahuman" and all that rot. But remember that Catwoman existed as a superb human catburgler for decades before DC fell into the mutant pit.

As far as the personality of Batman, I think the idea was always that he was something of a dark character--his parents having been murdered in front of him when he was a child--thus the appellation "Dark Knight." After the silliness of the campy 1960s Batman and the 1970s Superfriends Batman (not sure if Superfriends stayed silly for it's entire 20-year run) the writers at DC comics went overboard in the other direction and made him too dark perhaps. The current level of darkness they showed in Batman the Animated Series, Batman Beyond and JL suits me fine, as it makes for a good contrast with the hope-inspiring Superman. Batman the Dark Knight contrasts with Superman the Paladin.

There's a great scene at the end of the episode in which Superman disguises himself as Batman and goes around with the Tim Drake version of Robin searching for the real Batman. I forget the name of the episode; someone posted it to one of the recent threads and it was something like Knight Time. Anyway, at the end, after Superman has defeated Braniac and rescued the (totally helpless) Bruce Wayne from Braniac's mind control, Superman says to Batman something like, "for a loner, you sure inspire a lot of sidekicks" or something to that effect. To me it was a quintessential Superman/Batman moment, with Batman trying to be his sourpuss, loner self, and Superman the hope-inspiring icon seeing right through him. :)

Woot! Longest post evah! ;D

Steward
2006-06-01, 04:34 PM
Yes we all know that Batman is, in general, a practice in mental masturbation for many writers.

However we are not discussing the WRITERS here, we're discussing the characters as though they were real. Why? Well because if you discuss them as fake it'd be much less interesting.

Okay, fine. But it's hard to discuss Batman, a man whose powers (I call godlike determination a superpower, even though its more realistic than the Silver Surfer's) grow and fluctuate depending on what he's facing. Batman is a cool guy, and he has mostly remained reasonable in his abilities over the years, but occasionally you can sort of see him exercising what can only be called 'magic'. You know; those wild guesses based on weird or circumstantial evidence that aren't exactly shown to you.

My theory is that Batman has a latent mutant ability that increases his mental acuity for a short bursts of time (just long enough for him to blurt out something crazy that happens to correct or lead into something that is). It's linked to intense stress, of course, and this might help explain why he might be able to get an edge on the Silver Surfer (who he couldn't possibly investigate since they don't exist in the same universe).

CelestialStick
2006-06-02, 07:06 AM
Okay, fine. But it's hard to discuss Batman, a man whose powers (I call godlike determination a superpower, even though its more realistic than the Silver Surfer's) grow and fluctuate depending on what he's facing. Batman is a cool guy, and he has mostly remained reasonable in his abilities over the years, but occasionally you can sort of see him exercising what can only be called 'magic'. You know; those wild guesses based on weird or circumstantial evidence that aren't exactly shown to you.

My theory is that Batman has a latent mutant ability that increases his mental acuity for a short bursts of time (just long enough for him to blurt out something crazy that happens to correct or lead into something that is). It's linked to intense stress, of course, and this might help explain why he might be able to get an edge on the Silver Surfer (who he couldn't possibly investigate since they don't exist in the same universe).
Bah! Down with mutants in the DC universe! :(

Steward
2006-06-02, 09:14 PM
Bah! Down with mutants in the DC universe! :(

Fine. His cowl pumps "brain-enhancing steroids derived from timber wolf estrogen" into his skull.