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Deviston
2010-05-18, 01:54 AM
Came up with a few feats for Ritual Casting and making it a little more combat applicable.

Few disclaimers:
1. I know I can't spell, you'd be wasting your breath (and time) telling me cause I don't find it DEATHLY critical.
2. I know rituals weren't meant to be put in combat, this thread isn't me asking you to remind me of that. It's to review and judge and so forth the content within.

Thanks all :)


Permanant Ritual Array
Prerequisite: Ritual Caster
Benefit: Select one ritual you have mastered. You may spend 3 times the amount of time required to imprint a ritual into a scroll, to instead imprint it permanantly into any object or on any surface. The cost for this imprinting is 3 times the usual amount. For non-static costs consult DM.

As a part of the creation of this permanant ritual circle, you are also commiting it to memory. As such, activating this ritual takes 1 full round action and the appropriate skill check (if required) at a -5 penalty per tier (-5 for heroic rituals, -10 for paragon rituals, and so forth).

At time of activation, the appropriate materials must be present on your person or within your square to cover the casting cost for each activation. Your ritual array is not destroyed however as a scroll is in the activation.

Special: You make take this feat multiple times. Each time you may choose another ritual to make permanant.



Quick Ritual Array Activation
Prerequisite: Ritual Caster, Permanant Ritual Array
Benefit: You may activate permanant ritual arrays as a standard action.



Feeding the Exchange
"Man can not gain anything without first giving something in return.
To obtain anything, something of equal value must be lost.
That is Ritual Casting's law of equlivant exchange."
Prerequisite: Ritual Caster
Benefit: The monetary cost for activating rituals is changed into a physical self sacrifice on the part of the caster. For every 10gp worth of components in the ritual that the caster is replacing, the caster instead takes 1 point of damage.

The visable manifestation (if any) of this damage is purely flavor and up to the DM and player.

Some Rituals simply can not be simplified into a monetary value. Raise Dead for example, would instead of taking HP's would take another life.

Also, I have NO clue if the price I put here is right or near balanced. I have nothing to go off of. I'm at work and don't have books. Funny thing I can't find ONE ritual online to go off of. Any website that has the category "Games" is blocked at work so...



Satiating Endless Hunger
Prerequisite: Ritual Caster, Feeding the Exchange
Benefit: Choose a ritual you have mastered. You may pay the price for Feeding the Exchange permanantly plus 1 HP per level of the ritual to never have to pay the price again.
For example, Lose Sight is a 5th level ritual with a 100gp casting cost. When taking this feat, Alec chooses Lose Sight and sacrifices 15 hit points permanantly to never have to pay a casting cost for this ritual again.

Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time applies for a new ritual.


PEACH please yall!

Angelmaker
2010-05-18, 02:10 AM
Feeding the Exchange and Satiating endless Hunger are worthless, if you donīt want to play a roleplay heavy, fluff loving group. And if you do: Why go for 4E? :O

NOBODY would ever waste permanent hitpoints on a permanently paid for ritual. Except if the ritual is actually helpful in combat that compensates for this loss of hitpoints. I canīt think of any and if there were, it would probably break the game.

Feeding the exchange does not scale. When a ritual costs 100 gold pieces in a heroic tier, that may be fine, but what about epic tier rituals that easily cost 1500 gold pieces and more? The whole point of having rituals ready as fast as possible is being defeated if you drain yourself that much, that a kobold with a sling could pick you off in your weakened state.

Needs much more work for this to work in any way. ( Even if you arenīt concerned about rituals being used in combat for some awkwardly useless or broken action, there is still the scaling issue: Effectively you drain yourself to death with higher level rituals or your feat gets more and more useless over time. )

A better way may be to pay with healing surges instead - those scale with level. i.e. one healing surge = 10-25% off, maximum of 3 surges or something like that.

edit: Regarding Permanant Ritual Array


Permanant Ritual Array
Prerequisite: Ritual Caster
Benefit: Select one ritual you have mastered. You may spend 3 times the amount of time required to imprint a ritual into a scroll, to instead imprint it permanantly into any object or on any surface. The cost for this imprinting is 3 times the usual amount. For non-static costs consult DM.

As a part of the creation of this permanant ritual circle, you are also commiting it to memory. As such, activating this ritual takes 1 full round action and the appropriate skill check (if required) at a -5 penalty per tier (-5 for heroic rituals, -10 for paragon rituals, and so forth).

At time of activation, the appropriate materials must be present on your person or within your square to cover the casting cost for each activation. Your ritual array is not destroyed however as a scroll is in the activation.


You need to make permanent clear, that the "object" which the ritual gets imprinted on must be unmovable. At least that is what I thought the idea was: a "permanant ritual circle". If you allow object to be a movable stone, you WILL have adventuring groups with a full set of permanent magic ritual stones wandering around. Could be nice - "Hey guys, our mage is awake. Lets take 2 minutes to buff ourselfs with water breathing, water walking, ghost horses, <enter any name of any ritual that provides a long lasting buff>"...

You DONīT want that, trust me... ( Especially because it drains one player of feats he really needs, if he goes the buffbot route )

WildPyre
2010-05-18, 02:16 AM
Feeding the Exchange and Satiating endless Hunger are worthless, if you donīt want to play a roleplay heavy, fluff loving group. And if you do: Why go for 4E? :O

This is only funny... because of how horribly true it is.

My hat is off to you.


I'm afraid trying to make anything, in 4E that doesn't directly influence combat or skill challenges, useful or worth a vermin's rear, is just an exercise in futility.

cupkeyk
2010-05-18, 02:20 AM
I can imagine a halfling ranger permanently giving up hitpoints to allow him to cast beast growth on his animal companion all day everyday at no cost. A vistaning Pathfinding feat can accomplish this but only once a day.

Deviston
2010-05-18, 02:26 AM
Feeding the Exchange and Satiating endless Hunger are worthless, if you donīt want to play a roleplay heavy, fluff loving group. And if you do: Why go for 4E? :O


Lol, so true reguarding 4.x, I'm a MASSIVE RP fella, actually, hence the feat chain. But it's 4.x only cause my group wants 4.x sad to say.





NOBODY would ever waste permanent hitpoints on a permanently paid for ritual. Except if the ritual is actually helpful in combat that compensates for this loss of hitpoints. I canīt think of any and if there were, it would probably break the game.


The main focus in all honesty, is for a FABRICATE homebrew ritual. The combat use would be like, insta non-magic weapon of choice, terrain shaping, things like that. That's not the FOCUS, but use in combat would be about that if someone else took it. It's mainly for the flavor of unlimited terrain shaping, once again an RP focus.

And as for P. R. A. and morning buffing, I REALLY doubt that will happen too too much seeing as how the feat is one feat = one perm. ritual. I mean, if character 1 is willing to burn his few feats on a few buffs so be it. Do you really think its that broken taking that aspect into mind?


EDIT: Missed that very last line of yours. But my reply still stands, how powerful can it be if he is wasting so many feats on a few rituals?

EDIT: So true Wildpyre! So dang true! I cry... just a little... so i plan on changing that here an now, at least for my game up and coming that is.

Angelmaker
2010-05-18, 02:38 AM
The main focus in all honesty, is for a FABRICATE homebrew ritual. The combat use would be like, insta non-magic weapon of choice, terrain shaping, things like that. That's not the FOCUS, but use in combat would be about that if someone else took it. It's mainly for the flavor of unlimited terrain shaping, once again an RP focus.

EDIT: Missed that very last line of yours. But my reply still stands, how powerful can it be if he is wasting so many feats on a few rituals?

NON RP, pure mechanic view:
So, thatīs nice and all, still - giving up at least 2 feats for non magic weapons and terrain shaping that does not involve at least some difficult terrain for your enemies or something, only spells one thing: Death for the character at latest paragon tier. ( IF you are not going to fudge any combat heīs involved in. Which you shouldnīt, really. :) )

IF you want this fabricate to be useful, let it change the weapon hes holding to another type of weapon with the same enchantment bonus that his original weapon has, and whatever you had in mind as well. Could made an awesome flexible character - shame though, you need feats that are specialized to weapon groups, to make this weapons actually useful.

Taking sorely needed feats away from anyone is just preparing a character for death. ( There is a feat fix somewhere around here, which getīs rid of the expertise feat needs. maybe that woudl help... ? )

RP View:
Iīm all for it. The magical aura arund me, that changes the landscape to my tormented and twisted mindīs whishes? AWESOME! Sudden mood swing? A small volcanoe errupts. :smallbiggrin:

Still, my main point stands: If you do this in your 4e game, be aware, youīre possibly either breaking the game balance for your totally awesome fabricate, or youīre spelling TPK, because someone wasted half his feats on RP nice stuff, which caused him to not be able to fullfill his role, thus weakening his group.

Balance in 4E is precarious.

Regarding your edit: This isnīt about "how powerful" but instead about "how bad can he screw up his character with this feats, if they arenīt done right/balanced well".

Townopolis
2010-05-18, 02:41 AM
I might pay 20 Hp for infinite level 9 potions of regeneration for free...

Ok, maybe that's a stupid example, but you might want to explicate how these feats work with item creation rituals, even if it's "they don't."

Angelmaker
2010-05-18, 02:42 AM
I might pay 20 Hp for infinite level 9 potions of regeneration for free...

Ok, maybe that's a stupid example, but you might want to explicate how these feats work with item creation rituals, even if it's "they don't."

Thanks Lordsmoothe - thatīs exactly what i meant by "either itīs totally suckage" or "itīs overpowered beyond comparison".

This is opening a can of worms - are you prepared to go fishing?

edit: Uh, wait. Level 9 potions of regenration? What book are those from. Are we talking 4E here?

Townopolis
2010-05-18, 02:47 AM
Adventurer's Vault. The level 9 version costs 160gp to create and gives regeneration 5 for an encounter. Higher level versions give better regeneration but would cost all your HP.

Deviston
2010-05-18, 02:50 AM
Er... dang good call. Definately "They Don't". I see the issues here. I think that, RP aim considered... should the character who wants the Fabricate thing be the only guy who takes it, and only takes it for that ritual, this feat chain is balanced. At least from what everyones saying the problems raise when poking at other rituals.

Now that I'm looking at his original email to me, I see what he's aiming at. Anyone every seen Full Metal Alchemist? Yeah, willin to put money that's what he wants.


EDIT: Also, we have one more feat at LVL 1 than most chars. Homeruled sacking that Backstory benfit or whatever for a bonus feat. Wanted Flaws but... didn't want to put in the time to create it 4.x.... hate 4th.

Angelmaker
2010-05-18, 02:50 AM
Adventurer's Vault. The level 9 version costs 160gp to create and gives regeneration 5 for an encounter. Higher level versions give better regeneration but would cost all your HP.

Ok, thanks. Regeneration 5 isnīt breaking 4E, still: There may be other validly overpowering options we have overlooked at this point which your players may find.


Anyone every seen Full Metal Alchemist? Yeah, willin to put money that's what he wants.
I remember parts of it. Just another high powered anime with strange metal limb wielding guys, wasnīt it? Well there ARE enough strange dudes out there like the artificer from eberron. There can some pretty nice fluff be done with it like clockwork bombs, etc. ( perhaps even reflavouring some artificer attacks to all kinds of strange clockworks or flask/potions thrown around may work. )

Deviston
2010-05-18, 02:57 AM
Yeah that sounds like a good idea! I wonder if i can push that way. Reflavoring is something easy to do.

Gaming in general is hard in 4th. Its like, if an ability doesnt effect combat then just forget about it.... Makes for more difficult RP abilities.

Angelmaker
2010-05-18, 03:32 AM
Gaming in general is hard in 4th. Its like, if an ability doesnt effect combat then just forget about it.... Makes for more difficult RP abilities.

My Advice?

Make fabricate a level 1 at will power, choosable by any class:

Fabricate:
At will
Minor action
Last until end of next turn
Sustain: minor
Fabricate changes your weapon to a weapon of another kind ( e.g. sword to polearm or axe ) - otherwise the weapons properties are unchanged ( e.g. you keep the same proficiency bonuses with it and also the same damage. Might rule that reach is ok for polearms.) Melee canīt be converted to range and vice versa.

AND / OR ( both are usable with fabricate, but only one each turn )

Fabricate changes a area-burst 1 within 5 to difficult terrain for your enemies. Vines writhe around the ankles of your foes, earthly surfaces are covered with small rolling stones or get soaked with mud. The change reverts itself after the effect ends. When the effect is sustained as a minor action for at least 5 rounds on the same terrain, the area becomes area-burst 3 and the user of the power can make more detailed changes to the landscape ( flowers groing, stones rearranged, trees reshaped ) BUT the terrain canīt be changed to difficult if it was not difficult terrain before or changed to not difficult if it was difficult terrain before.

You canīt sustain fabricate for both effects ( e.g. difficult terrain and sword to polearm. )
----

This allows for RP fluff AND flexibility+fluff in combat. You might also grant the new weapon damage in most cases like D6 to D8 from club to longsword or something, it wonīt hurt that much and make for a great at will power to have in combat.

You could also implement and arcane check for added effects, if you want it more ritual/magic like.

Iīll leave the details to you.

On an aftertought: maybe make it free action with sustain minor. After all, many leaders need their minor actions.

On an afterthought after the afterthought: It would be best to make this attainable by a feat, rather than an at will power, because only humans get the additional at will. Would limit race choices to much.

So, for a feat you get this at will power with free action. If itīs a free action, you donīt need to sustain, makes more sense.

But free difficult terrain for a feat... could be overpowered for ranged or defender builds. So, perhaps it still should be minor/sustain minor...

Gaah, whatever, Iīm done. This is why I donīt homebrew stuff for 4E, I am didiculously bad at it. :smallyuk:

Deviston
2010-05-18, 04:13 AM
GAH!

Why did Wizards even make 4th.... see! that's my point! first thing done was make it into a combat related thing! difficult terrain blahsy blahsy blah. yeah, i think ill just toss my original idea past the PC and see. Thanks.... I curse the kick-in-the-door player/DM who couldnt just play 3.5 with kick in the door playstyle, needed their own RULES for it...

/GAH!

EDIT: and its not you, its the SYSTEM!

Angelmaker
2010-05-18, 04:23 AM
Actually, I donīt think so.

My only quarrel is to balance this thing right. I think, Iīm right on track here, just there needs to be a downside to create the difficult terrain at will. Maybe make it sustain: move for the difficult terrain and sustain: minor for the weapon change. Looks good to me.

Letīs face it: You can roleplay while playing "Ludo", just roleplay rolling a 6 either as a charge or launching a nuke from your nation or casting a powerful spell or whatever it is, your imagination makes up for a setting. ( For example this Ludo here: http://i2.midasplayer.com/images/games/ludo/ludo_348_screenshoot.jpg has sort of a fairytale like setting. )

I donīt want to blame 4E for a lack of roleplay, just because it made Skill monkeys obsolete and magic balanced compared to melee fighters. As a matter of fact I prefer 4E over 3.5, come to think about it, in terms of group play.

Anyway, weīre deviating, or at least I am.

Deviston
2010-05-18, 04:58 AM
/deviate

It's all about the scene. Wizard vs Fighter in a open plain, yes Wiz wins. In a cramped 20/20 room? Unless the Wiz prepared for JUST THAT occasion, he's boned. Point is, 4th didn't "balance" magic, just made it so that magic combat is the exact same as non magic combat. Eyebite? Same as "Dust and Rocks in the Eyes" Fighter exploit. Lame... pure lameness. They just nerfed everything and put everyone on the same playing field. "Magic" isn't suposed to be able to be whooped up on by yon sword swinger. Should be able to blast from afar, turnem into a toad. crap like that. Healing surges? really? hey! i just got lopped with a sword in my chest! SURGE! now the wound is healed up, sweet! srry... rant for a sec... srry srry...

/rant over


Ok, pulled out the ole telephone. He don't want it to be combat related. Yes it might have said implications, but essentially he was 3.5 Fabricate (which we have seen a 4e conversion there-of) at will. Not a power that gives "difficult terrain" or whatever. And why does it need to be maintained? When you use a shovel you dont have to concentrate to keep the hole dug. same principle, just using magic to make things reform and shape. Stop using magic, it sticks.

Angelmaker
2010-05-18, 06:00 AM
/deviateē
Healign surges ARE an awkward concept at first, but really - is it worse or better than having the healbot cleric or a wand of cure lesser wounds? I mean, common, using 23 of 50 charges of cure lesser wounds on your 400 Hp fighter? Thatīs even more stupid.

And whatīs so bad about a fighter actually having tricks up to his sleeve? As long as it is in his martial power to clubber you with a shield so you are dazed for a round or whatever, why not? Itīs just as awesome as having a pillar of heavenly light dazing a foe, buw now finally you can do it as a fighter too, without the need for Clericzilla.
/end deviate

Deviston
2010-05-18, 06:08 AM
/deviate

nothing wrong with it! add it as a Fighter feat in 3.5. issue resolved. and i agree with the healbot crap. i was always a fan of the loner class. i didnt touch healing unless it was sleeping or VISITING the town hospice for a lil extended duty heal check. magical healing (surges included) is for pansies. be a real man, take your licks, and whimper away when you cant take any more.

/end deviate

i think we killed this thread lol

Colmarr
2010-05-18, 08:39 AM
i think we killed this thread lol

It was probably the asking for help from 4e players/DMs while simultaneously trash-talking their game of choice that did it...

Swordgleam
2010-05-18, 10:29 AM
It seems like your original design goal with these feats is to add options to rituals that are an equal trade off. You do things faster, but it costs more. You can cast rituals for free, but you give up something.

If they're supposed to be balanced in that respect, why even make them require a feat? Just say, "these are things you can do with rituals in my game." If you want it so not all ritualists have these, just make an "Expert Ritualist" feat that gives, say, a +2 feat bonus to Arcana and opens up all of these options.

That keeps them somewhat exclusive, but makes them worth doing without having to spend half your feat slots on them. There are a ton of good Heroic-tier feats, so anything that requires taking more than one feat is probably not great mechanics-wise.


Feeding the Exchange and Satiating endless Hunger are worthless, if you donīt want to play a roleplay heavy, fluff loving group. And if you do: Why go for 4E? :O

This complaint makes me sad and confused. I just got done DMing a 2 year long incredibly roleplaying-heavy 4e game. There were a couple sessions that had no combat at all, and they were some of the best. Plenty of times, the players said, "I hope we don't get any random encounters because I want to make it back to the village this session so we can finish negotiating with the elders" or something along those lines.

I'm not sure why so many people seem to have so much trouble roleplaying in 4e. Perhaps if you explain where you're having difficulties I could give you some advice.

Tiki Snakes
2010-05-18, 10:32 AM
Eh, actually I'd say for your description of how fighter vs wizard is supposed to go, 4th gets closer. If the wizard gets the drop on the fighter, he could be slowed, immobolised, dazed, or all manner of uncomfortable positions before he gets the chance to close.

In a small room, the fighter sidles over and pushes the wizards face out of the back of his head, unless the wizard goes first and has one hell of a trick up his sleeve.

In 3.5, the wizard nukes/save or dies the fighter from a distance, or nukes/save or dies the fighter to his face (providing he goes first, which he probably will).

Hell, as I understand it, in the 20' room, all the wizard needs to do is cast grease, and take his time plinking the effectively neutered fighter to death at his leisure.

As for surges, they make plenty of sense to me. You have your current HP representing what you've actually 'got in the tank', but it's actually just a fraction of your total reserves of energy. A couple of hits can put you on the ropes, but given a few minutes to catch your breath, you'll be okay.

I'd second / third the suggestion to switch out the HP cost for Surges. It scales better if nothing else.

From what I can see of the Fabricate spell via the SRD, I'd say it sounds like a more powerful version of the wizard cantrip Prestidigitation.

I'd say it's possibly best modelled as a Utility power with Arcana skill training as a pre-requisite. Depending on how much you let it do (and how much you are happy for the player to do with it) I'd either make it an encounter power, or if an at will, then not-level-2 utility. Higher heroic perhaps.

Of course, if you're happy with him having that amount of power, feel free to keep it low level and at-will (provided everyone is okay with that in the game, obviously). An alternative would be to make it an encounter power, but that can be sustained (so he would activate his Fabricate magic, and for an encounter / 5 minutes could smush things around to his heart's content?)

As for the endless hunger line of feats, I'd recommend you have a look at the fighter's martial practices. They have a similar thing going to ritual magic, (only more limited on account of just being tricks and so on, quite like the old 'skill tricks' I believe). They are almost entirely paid for using healing surges, so you could get an idea of appropriate costs from there, to model your little 'blood magic' thingy. :smallsmile:

Of course, I'd be sure to add a clause that the surges could be provided by any willing ally, or helpless creature. Because what's the fun of blood magic without fueling it by sacrificing virgins? ^_^

[edit]

I'm not sure why so many people seem to have so much trouble roleplaying in 4e. Perhaps if you explain where you're having difficulties I could give you some advice.

My 'main' campaign as a player is currently on hiatus, but it's been going for a bit over a year. We've had...don't rush me...er...

maybe as many as six or seven combats. We play either fortnightly or weekly, depending on the DM's mental stamina and the alignment of the planets.
It's a pretty cool game, actually. Some weeks, I even have to roll my dice!

During the course of this, We have staved off a major attack on our stronghold, accidentally allowed the Tear of Corellon fall into the hands of an Ancient Lich, reinvigorated a nation of hobgoblins under one players rule, lost and then regained the favour of Lolth, travelled all over the underdark and portions of the world above, met emperors, thwarted the plans of arch-devils and renegade wizards, liberated a city over-run by Yugoloths, founded a new House of Drow and one of us even had a suprise divine-magic-sex-change.

And that's just one group of characters, we also have another that we sometimes alternate with, up on the surface under the command of the Lich. They've been going for a decent portion of the previous year, and have yet to enter combat.

*shrug*

Mando Knight
2010-05-18, 11:18 AM
It was probably the asking for help from 4e players/DMs while simultaneously trash-talking their game of choice that did it...

Likely it. Before this comment, it was practically a 4e hate-fest dialog between two new guys going over points that were rehashed in every 3.5 v 4e thread that popped up within the last 2 years. It's hard to work with such negativity.

Swordgleam
2010-05-18, 11:28 AM
reinvigorated a nation of hobgoblins under one players rule, lost and then regained the favour of Lolth

Hey! My players also took over a tribe of now no longer evil goblins, and have an interesting relationship with Torog. Maybe everyone else's problem is that their campaigns have too few small evil humanoids and gods. :smallbiggrin:

Tiki Snakes
2010-05-18, 11:49 AM
Hey! My players also took over a tribe of now no longer evil goblins, and have an interesting relationship with Torog. Maybe everyone else's problem is that their campaigns have too few small evil humanoids and gods. :smallbiggrin:

Evil. It get's stuff done.

Kurald Galain
2010-05-18, 01:37 PM
In my opinion,

Permanent Ritual Array. First off, 4E doesn't have "full round actions". Second, ritual check DCs already scale by tier, so the penalty doesn't have to be by tier. Third, well, if you intended that as a penalty, note that for most rituals it doesn't really matter all that much what you roll.

On the other hand, there are a handful of rituals that are absolutely crippled by their ludicrous casting time, and would worth the investment as an at-will power, particularly Remove Condition and several Barrier-creating rituals. For the others, it will not make much of a difference.

Quick Ritual Array Activation - even if 4E did have full-round actions, the reduction is not worth a second feat.

Feeding the Exchange - well, this doesn't make rituals applicable in combat (because of their casting time) but it does make most of them essentially free. Considering how most rituals are gravely overcosted, that is certainly an improvement.

Satiating Endless Hunger - this doesn't help, though. Any ritual that you can afford this price for, can already be cast for pocket change.

If you want an easier way to make rituals useful in combat, try this. It may sound overpowered at first glance but there's actually only a few tricks with this that are worth the feat.

Ritual mastery (heroic feat, prereq: ritual caster). Select one deception, divination, exploration, scrying, or travel ritual you know of your level or less. Once per day, you may use this ritual as a standard action without paying its component cost.

Deviston
2010-05-19, 03:37 AM
Spake First Thusly by Mando Knight, He of Opinions but No Contribution
Likely it. Before this comment, it was practically a 4e hate-fest dialog between two new guys going over points that were rehashed in every 3.5 v 4e thread that popped up within the last 2 years. It's hard to work with such negativity.


Hey, if the shoe fits! Either way, hate the system or not, its what the players want so whether or not I express extreme disgust, I'm still willing to listen and learn. Snide remarks can't be helped... srry. But still listenin! Step up from those who won't even try it out at least right? So, if you're willing to comment, why not let it be about the topic? Otherwise please feel free to PM those responses to folks posts that are not related ;)

To KURALD GALAIN

"Ritual Mastery"
Only once per day being overpowered?! I can't, in any stretching, skewing, or planar breaching of the imagination think of this single feat as overpowered. But then... maybe (and I think this is the case as I'm typing this) I'm haven't fully wrapped my head around 4e enough.

And 4e doesn't have full rounds? Fine, amending... "takes a standard action, a move action, as well as a minor action all in the same round." I think that covers "full round" then yeah? Or is it just standard and two minors? Cant remember.

Quick Action blah thing, good call. I don't think it's worth a feat either. I'll just make it a "full round" and leave the feat as an option not as a suggestion.

And on the note of surges, you're all right! As I look at it I realize what you all meant by scalling, HP's go up, surge value goes up, which in essence, add all your suges together and THAT’S your total HPs. So It actually ends up being more detremental than flat HP snaps. So good call. Burning surges to activate the abilities, and a permanent Surge burn to At-Will the SINGLE ritual chosen for the feat.

Maybe... Like this?

Level of Ritual
--
Healing Surge Burn
1-5
2
6-10
3
11-15
5
16-20
6
21-25
8
26-30
9



And to everyone who says you can't roleplay 4e I say BAH! You can role play anything. You just have less (TONS less) when it comes to options when compared to 3.5. I mean, if one can role play clipping ones toenails, then one can easily roleplay 4e.

"And the adamantine vorpal clippers didst lop the shining white heads from the tips of the divine beings toes. With candor and bravado did the hero receive the great deity's thanks, for sure nothing but his superb clippers could have pedicurized the godly digits!"

Just sayin. Well, maybe it's not that bad. Just a little harder in 4e than it was in 3.5 not impossible tho.

Kurald Galain
2010-05-19, 04:43 AM
"Ritual Mastery"
Only once per day being overpowered?! I can't, in any stretching, skewing, or planar breaching of the imagination think of this single feat as overpowered.

Well, good. It does, however, appear to be both easier and more powerful than the four feats you're suggesting.

Deviston
2010-05-19, 04:51 AM
really? so... once per day for free is better than multiple times per day for the cost of a surge each? (and one round, full, standard or whatever)

How so exactly?

Kurald Galain
2010-05-19, 05:47 AM
really? so... once per day for free is better than multiple times per day for the cost of a surge each? (and one round, full, standard or whatever)

Because for most rituals it is highly unlikely that you will need them more often than once per day. See also this post by Saph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7860326&postcount=46) on the subject.

Deviston
2010-05-19, 06:35 AM
See, that's what I thought when talking to the PC who essentially wants a 4e version of the 3.5 FABRICATE. This is what he said to me:

"Runnning from cops? POOF there's a wall. Climb giant mountain? POOF there're steps. Caving in tunnels? POOF support beams."

And in all honesty he must have had this planned cause he kept going. I got entertained after a point and let him keep going just to see how far he could go. I had to stop him. So needless to say, the PC can think of a million and one ways to use FABRICATE At-Will and if the fella is willing to burn 3+ feats to get it... **** I really don't see the issue. Yeah, maybe in combat he's not super useful... but I'M running the game and I am a RP munkey, combat maybe once a session. So it works for me.

Kurald Galain
2010-05-19, 06:40 AM
See, that's what I thought when talking to the PC who essentially wants a 4e version of the 3.5 FABRICATE. This is what he said to me:
Yes, a ritual that lets you create whatever thing you want would be useful as an at-will power. However, such a ritual does not in fact exist in 4E.

So if this is what your player wants, it strikes me as needlessly complicated to create a ritual and bunch of feats to accomodate this. Just give him a daily or encounter utility power that creates an object with some limit that disappears after five minutes, and you're all done. In fact, the artificer has a few powers that more-or-less do that.

Deviston
2010-05-19, 07:15 AM
it doesnt exist cannon, but a quick google search brings up a decent proxy. and its not so complicated. its part of the fun of DnD! creating new things!

Colmarr
2010-05-19, 07:26 AM
Hey, if the shoe fits! Either way, hate the system or not, its what the players want so whether or not I express extreme disgust, I'm still willing to listen and learn. Snide remarks can't be helped... srry. But still listenin! Step up from those who won't even try it out at least right? So, if you're willing to comment, why not let it be about the topic? Otherwise please feel free to PM those responses to folks posts that are not related ;)

Ah, so you're allowed to complain but we can't complain about you complaining. Got it.

Edit: And on that note, seeing as I'm not being constructive, I'll take my leave from the thread :smallwink: