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Tyger
2010-05-18, 09:53 AM
If you wear a magic robe over a suit of non-magical armor, do you get the benefits of both? Assuming of course that the "benefit" of the magical robe is not an armor bonus.

Example: A Robe of Eyes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#robeofEyes) worn over a mithril chain shirt. Do you get the benefits of the robe, while also getting the AC bonus from the chain shirt?

KillianHawkeye
2010-05-18, 09:57 AM
Yes, you can do this. Robes and armors both take up the "body" slot, but this is only for determining how many magical items you can use at once. If one or the other is not magical, there is no conflict.

Do note, however, that this restriction technically includes temporarily magical items, such as a suit of armor with a magic vestment spell applied to it.

Tyger
2010-05-18, 10:05 AM
Groovy, I was 98% sure that it worked, but wanted to be 100%. Gracias.

dextercorvia
2010-05-18, 11:24 AM
Yes, you can do this. Robes and armors both take up the "body" slot, but this is only for determining how many magical items you can use at once. If one or the other is not magical, there is no conflict.

Do note, however, that this restriction technically includes temporarily magical items, such as a suit of armor with a magic vestment spell applied to it.

But this is solved by getting magic vestment cast on your already magical robe. You get the armor bonus from the armor, and the enhancement bonus from the robe.

Tyger
2010-05-18, 11:30 AM
But this is solved by getting magic vestment cast on your already magical robe. You get the armor bonus from the armor, and the enhancement bonus from the robe.

By jove, you're right! Nice loophole there... something to think about once our cleric comes along. :)

Saintheart
2010-05-18, 11:44 AM
By jove, you're right! Nice loophole there... something to think about once our cleric comes along. :)

Careful - the spell description says that "an outfit of regular clothing" counts as armor with no AC bonus. It doesn't say that a Robe of Eyes -- which is not a full outfit, and arguably not regular clothing by any stretch of the imagination -- counts.

Tyger
2010-05-18, 12:01 PM
Careful - the spell description says that "an outfit of regular clothing" counts as armor with no AC bonus. It doesn't say that a Robe of Eyes -- which is not a full outfit, and arguably not regular clothing by any stretch of the imagination -- counts.

That's a hair split that is pretty open to interpretation... "outfit of regular clothing" isn't defined, and the "clothing" section includes so many varieties that its pretty hard to say for certain what it means. I think its not unreasonable to interpret it the first way though. I do acknowledge that is an interpretation, but the RAW requires interpretation, so its hard to not...

glennfrogknight
2010-05-18, 12:32 PM
Enhancement AC isn't a different type of armor class. It's simply improving the AC that the piece of armor gives. So a Masterwork Chain Shirt under Robes +4 wouldn't give +4 armor and +4 enhancement to AC; each would be giving +4 armor, and they don't stack.

Animefunkmaster
2010-05-18, 12:58 PM
Since we are splitting hairs:

However, each of those items must be worn on (or over) a particular part of the body


One robe or suit of armor on the body (over a vest, vestment, or shirt)

Now this is in the magic item section, and doesn't specifically make a distinction between magic and non magic items. But the implication isn't that you can wear magic robe over a suit of armor (but you can wear it over a vest, vestment, or shirt). Otherwise, why not wear magic items over tons of masterwork tools?

Volos
2010-05-18, 01:40 PM
Otherwise, why not wear magic items over tons of masterwork tools?

I had a player attempt to convince me that he should be able to do something akin to this. Wearing a magical this and a non magical that in the same body slot. He had a lot of strength and dexterity, so I allowed it temporarily, having him take a -2 to dexterity for wearing so many things. Then he suddenly came up with a dragon magazine out of nowhere, asking if he could use the coolness of some non-magical but better then masterwork item. I allowed it, not thinking that he would spam it to every single non-magical item on his body plus some. He did. At least the other players in my group supported me when I found an in game solution to removing the items from his character. Of course he complained and left the group, but I tried to handle it as diplomatically as possible, even giving him better magical items to help bridge the gap between his previous power level and the suddenly overpoweredness of his fail combo. I guess you can't win them all.

2xMachina
2010-05-18, 01:45 PM
Actually, I see no reason why you can't wear magic boots over MW socks of comfort.

You can't benefit from 2 magic items in the same slot (unless you pay 50% more for the cheaper one), but there's nothing to say you can't wear underwear under your shirt, under your armor.

nargbop
2010-05-18, 07:02 PM
If you're going to try and overcome the Core limitation of One-Magic-Item-Per-Slot, why not just use the Magic Item Compendium rule which allows you to stack extra powers onto one item?

KillianHawkeye
2010-05-18, 07:09 PM
@Animefunkmaster: The section you quoted is specifically about wearing magical items on your body, so it does in fact say nothing about wearing additional mundane items.

Obviously, things are limited by what is physically possible to wear. So you can wear 2 magical rings and 8 other nonmagical ones, but you can't wear a magical suit of armor over a nonmagical one.

Can you physically wear robes over armor? I'd say you can.

Tyger
2010-05-18, 08:50 PM
If you're going to try and overcome the Core limitation of One-Magic-Item-Per-Slot, why not just use the Magic Item Compendium rule which allows you to stack extra powers onto one item?

Not trying that, just wondering if my bard can wear his mithril chain shirt under a magical robe. I couldn't find any rule that says he can't, the only rule is that you can't get the magical benefit of two items in the same slot... no magic benefit to the chain, ergo, it should work.

dextercorvia
2010-05-18, 10:17 PM
Enhancement AC isn't a different type of armor class. It's simply improving the AC that the piece of armor gives. So a Masterwork Chain Shirt under Robes +4 wouldn't give +4 armor and +4 enhancement to AC; each would be giving +4 armor, and they don't stack.


Enhancement Bonus

An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks.

The enhancement bonus increases the bonus to AC that an object gives, but it does not increase the "armor" bonus.

MW Chain Shirt gives a +4 Armor bonus.
Robes +4 gives a +0 Armor bonus and +4 enhancement bonus to AC.


Stacking

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all)

I would say the above qualifies, we have two sources granting different bonus types to AC. Wouldn't you agree?

Divide by Zero
2010-05-18, 10:24 PM
The enhancement bonus increases the bonus to AC that an object gives, but it does not increase the "armor" bonus.

MW Chain Shirt gives a +4 Armor bonus.
Robes +4 gives a +0 Armor bonus and +4 enhancement bonus to AC.



I would say the above qualifies, we have two sources granting different bonus types to AC. Wouldn't you agree?

Except for the last part you bolded. The enhancement bonus grants a +4 bonus to the robe, not to you. So you get a +4 armor bonus from the chain shirt, and a +4 armor bonus from the robe (0+4), which overlap exactly.

That's why enhancement bonuses to armor and natural armor stack with each other, because they're actually just improving the existing armor and natural armor bonuses.

dextercorvia
2010-05-18, 10:30 PM
It could be, but I can't find anywhere that enhancement just increases the other bonus type. I see no justification that clothes +4 gives a +4 armor bonus. As opposed to merely a +4 bonus to AC.

Edit:Typo

olentu
2010-05-18, 10:52 PM
I could be, but I can't find anywhere that enhancement just increases the other bonus type. I see no justification that clothes +4 gives a +4 armor bonus. As opposed to merely a +4 bonus to AC.

Well while I do not recall seeing this elsewhere the statement that an enhancement bonus represents an increase another bonus type in the case of armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses is at the least in the rules compendium.

dextercorvia
2010-05-19, 06:47 AM
Ah, the Rules Compendium strikes again. Nevermind then.

lsfreak
2010-05-19, 12:34 PM
Ah, the Rules Compendium strikes again. Nevermind then.

Not just Rules Compendium, though.


An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks.

Emphasis added. They increase the armor bonus of an item, thus not stacking with multiple items all granting an armor bonus.

Kish
2010-05-19, 12:41 PM
I agree with nargbop.

Also, you're going to broil.

dextercorvia
2010-05-19, 12:55 PM
Not just Rules Compendium, though.



Emphasis added. They increase the armor bonus of an item, thus not stacking with multiple items all granting an armor bonus.

I hope the RC has spelled it out better than this, because that is not what your quote says. It effectively increases the bonus that the armor grants to AC, but it does not spell out that that extra bonus is in fact of the same type. A single item can grant more than one bonus type.

A person wearing +1 Buckler of Arrow deflection, and a +2 Buckler would get the benefit of the following versus an enemy arrow:

+3shield and +1deflection.

So it happens, and they stack.

I'm not continuing to argue that the enhancement bonus is separate, only that the passage we have both quoted is not clear that it isn't. the fact that they felt the need to fix it in the RC, indicates the possibility that others felt the same.

Tyger
2010-05-19, 01:22 PM
Also, you're going to broil.

Not in the frigid north in November. Also... mithril chain shirt... think Frodo in the LotR movies, you hardly even know its there its so light. Granted, its not quite LotR light, but its only 12.5 pounds for both the shirt and the cap that comes along with it. That's not too heavy at all. And there is nowhere where it says that a robe is a heavy canvas robe... could be made of light silk. :)

KillianHawkeye
2010-05-19, 02:16 PM
I hope the RC has spelled it out better than this, because that is not what your quote says. It effectively increases the bonus that the armor grants to AC, but it does not spell out that that extra bonus is in fact of the same type. A single item can grant more than one bonus type.

Judge for yourself:

An enhancement bonus represents an increase in an armor bonus, a natural armor bonus, or a shield bonus. It can also represent an increase in a weapon's effectiveness or a general bonus to an ability score.

olentu
2010-05-19, 04:21 PM
I hope the RC has spelled it out better than this, because that is not what your quote says. It effectively increases the bonus that the armor grants to AC, but it does not spell out that that extra bonus is in fact of the same type. A single item can grant more than one bonus type.

A person wearing +1 Buckler of Arrow deflection, and a +2 Buckler would get the benefit of the following versus an enemy arrow:

+3shield and +1deflection.

So it happens, and they stack.

I'm not continuing to argue that the enhancement bonus is separate, only that the passage we have both quoted is not clear that it isn't. the fact that they felt the need to fix it in the RC, indicates the possibility that others felt the same.

In the armor class section the rules compendium also says that an enhancement bonus stacks as if it were part of the bonus to which it applies in the cases of armor, shield, or natural armor.

Dr.Epic
2010-05-19, 04:23 PM
Example: A Robe of Eyes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#robeofEyes) worn over a mithril chain shirt. Do you get the benefits of the robe, while also getting the AC bonus from the chain shirt?

Robe of Eyes: it's funny because your robe is made of eyeballs!:smallbiggrin:

Curmudgeon
2010-05-19, 04:37 PM
I hope the RC has spelled it out better than this
Here's the better RC quote, from page 15:
Enhancement Bonuses

An enhancement bonus makes an armor bonus, natural armor bonus, or a shield bonus better. The enhancement bonus stacks as if it were part of the bonus to which it applies—armor, natural armor, or shield—so it’s not included in the AC formula above.

dextercorvia
2010-05-19, 05:50 PM
Re: Rules Compendium Quotes.

Thanks, I stand corrected. It makes sense that way.

Edit: Crumby homophones.