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RedishBeast
2006-05-03, 11:51 PM
Looking at the Batman vs Superman thread brought this old argument back to mind- could Wolverine harm Superman? I believe that I read somewhere that Supes gets his invulnerability from being, basically, infinitely dense. Wolverine’s claws are made of adamantium, which can, supposedly, slice through anything. But if Supes’s cells are packed close enough together then perhaps even the atom-thin edge of an adamantium blade couldn’t penetrate. Or maybe it could, which would come as a surprise to Superman, I guess.

I’m not trying to start a debate about an actual fight between the two- that was dealt with pretty well at the link (bottom), and even though Wolverine’s a scrappy little guy he’s not going to live long when hurled into the sun.

Also, supposing that Wolverine actually could stab the caped wonder, how do you think he would react? Yeah he’s super strong and brave and all, but he’s basically never felt significant pain (beside kryptonite drain, which is probably much different). Would he still be an effective fighter after that, or would he be so consumed with actual pain that the fight would basically be over?

Botheration! I can't figure how to do a hyperlink on this forum! The most relevent post was by MalachorWraith on this page: http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1146350387 ;start=15#15

Orion-the-G
2006-05-03, 11:59 PM
Well...

Aside from the madness of superman's infinite density (which is I suppose just as bad as any other superhero explanation). Wolverine's claws can cut through anything in theory. However, that is a statement within the bounds of the marvel universe. There might be hundreds or thousands of things in DC that he can't chop through. In fact because of the higher power level I'd say it's very likely that there ARE hundreds of thousands of things that are invincible as far as wolverine is concerned. Whether superman is one of them is a matter for the philosophers.

As far as the matter of superman feeling pain. He's gotten his butt handed to him before, he's been beat down. Heck he's even been killed (don't try and get me to quote how he got back up) or damn near close to it. There's no reason to assume he hasn't felt pain.

TinSoldier
2006-05-04, 12:00 AM
I've always liked Wolverine, but he doesn't have the highest Int or Wis of the bunch. Supes is definitely smarter.

I think that Superman's alien density trumps adamantium.

Superman would kick Wolverine's butt.

Another problem with Wolverine is that while he has regeneration, it takes time to take effect.

Look at what happened to him when The Reaver's crucified him.

Finwe
2006-05-04, 12:04 AM
Wait... if superman's body is so dense that a mono-molecular blade can not cut him, wouldn't Superman have to be so dense that the earth's crust would be unable to support his weight, and thus he'd fall right through the earth?

Orion-the-G
2006-05-04, 12:14 AM
Wait... if superman's body is so dense that a mono-molecular blade can not cut him, wouldn't Superman have to be so dense that the earth's crust would be unable to support his weight, and thus he'd fall right through the earth?


If superman's body was dense enough that a bullet would bounce off he'd still be too dense to pass for human. The explanation: he's probably flying everywhere.

Of course that doesn't explain why kryptonite suddenly reduces his density (where does all the mass go?) or even just being away from a yellow sun.

Of course, like I said it doesn't make sense. But then I can't think of a single superhero with a power that does make sense when thought about for too long. superman is just the most obvious.

Flak_Razorwill
2006-05-04, 12:14 AM
Wait... if superman's body is so dense that a mono-molecular blade can not cut him, wouldn't Superman have to be so dense that the earth's crust would be unable to support his weight, and thus he'd fall right through the earth?

It's adjustable so his gravity well is contained within himself, with a Super Cool Awesome inertial energy dampening field generated by his mind!

It's like the paradox o' getting a blade that can cut though anything, and a shield that can't be penetrated. Or a unstoppable rock meeting an unmovable rock. Yeah.

RedishBeast
2006-05-04, 12:30 AM
I just want to say that I hate Superman with a passion. A firey one at that. Though I hear Red Sun is good. Has anyone read that?

Super-density makes no sense to me anyway, it's just what I thought was the explaination. Is there a better one out there?

What's fun is that there were rumors on the interweb a year or so ago about a Superman/Wolverine battle. I think this problem may be part of what has kept it from production.

OOOOOhhhh- Ot, but I'd love to see Superman get Sandman angry enough to battle it out. Even the Man of Steel has to sleep. That would be one awesome trouncing!

Orion-the-G
2006-05-04, 12:35 AM
I just want to say that I hate Superman with a passion. A firey one at that. Though I hear Red Sun is good. Has anyone read that?

Super-density makes no sense to me anyway, it's just what I thought was the explaination. Is there a better one out there?

The only one I'm aware of is one I half-way thought up myself, but I think it has some semi-official source. Solar fueled, instinctive Telekinesis. Still madness but at least it covers most of his powers (invulnerability, superspeed, strength, heat vision) and explains super-boys random telekinesis. Of course it still leaves several others swinging in the wind. but it makes about as much sense as Cyclop's eye beams, or most any superhero power I could name.

I should note that I am neither a comic collector or well-versed in comic lore. So please be gentle when you beat the idea to the ground.



OOOOOhhhh- Ot, but I'd love to see Superman get Sandman angry enough to battle it out. Even the Man of Steel has to sleep. That would be one awesome trouncing!

Are you talking about the superhero sandman or are you talking about THE sandman: morpheous?

RedishBeast
2006-05-04, 01:00 AM
Yikes! Superman vs origional Sandman would be pretty sad.

sorry.

I meant the most awesome of the Endless, Morpheus.

Neil Gaiman is as a god among insects when it comes to actual storyline, real pathos, humor, and plot twists, as well as knowing his characters and writing amazing dialogue and even better prose. 1602 made me want to die with joy.

Skyserpent
2006-05-04, 01:02 AM
I Am personally a fan of Superboy, aka Kon-El. Rather than have Some wierd alien powers, being a half-human clone of Superman he has a new power called "Tactile Telekinesis" So he uses a special form of Telekinesis which only affects him and what he touches, allowing him to become invulnerable, fly and lift heavy objects. I Prefer this approach to Superman.

Shazam is also an option, he gets his powers with MAGIC. so no science is allowed to explain it.

Rex_Hondo
2006-05-04, 01:25 AM
A few thoughts...

It has been established that Supes is vulnerable to metaphysical powers. (magic, psionic, etc...) Also, given an opponent strong enough or with sufficient technology, Big Blue has taken quite a beating on more than one occasion.

It has also been theorized that some form of telekinesis may be at work in Superman's powers, and that he actually exudes a skintight forcefield (for want of a better way of describing it). That's why his costume can take the pounding it does and he doesn't end up naked every time somebody shoots him with a laser cannon. His cape gets shredded, and he may develop a rip or burn here or there, but for the most part, the tights survive.

Now, Wolverines claws, while sharp and strong, don't even cut through EVERYTHING in the Marvel universe. Captain America's shield is one example. Also, he's gone up against Hulk on more than one occasion and it usually ends up in a stalemate.

My thought is that Wolverine's claws, while mundane, should be strong and sharp enough to cut the Man of Steel. After all, Doomsday gashed him up pretty good, and there was no magic involved there, just brute strength. So the main question would have to be, is Wolverine strong (not to mention fast) enough to get the claws through Superman's damage reduction? (to use the RPing term)

akirajones
2006-05-04, 01:39 AM
Ok my Superman lore is a bit out of date but the current style of Superinvulnerability is a type of force field. Supes body acts as a solar battery. He was so drained by the fight with Doomsday that Doomsday was able to 'kill' Supes. I believe the superdense superman was from the golden age of comics. Where supes didn't really fly he jumped really high. and his costume was made by his mom unraveling the blankets that came with him from Krypton and were thus as invulnerable as Superman.
So since Wolverine can't cut through force fields he's a bit out of luck....but get him a piece of green kryptonite and....wall as we've seen superman with out the super is just a man. :> heh.

turkishproverb
2006-05-04, 01:56 AM
Just one quick comment on this. *WOlvie's claws may be able to cut superman, as the "forcefield" invulnerability has proved penatrable to sufficient force and the physical invulnerability (current continuity uses a little of each) isn't exactly imperviousness. But you have to remember, it probably wouldn't be easy, and he'd still have to be strong enough to push them through supers (not easy). *After all, even warm butter resists a knife, however little. And this aint butter

As much as I find wolvie to be a better character than big blue, I don't see him winning this fight, as he's not the single best tactical thinker, which is really superman's main weakness. *Wolvie thend's to just go all brute/thug on peaple when he gets mad, which traditionally is easily foiled by superman. *(obvious exceptions including Doomsday, who was stronger and for some reason superman reacted to with the solution of: PUNCH HIM! GET INTO A BRAWL WITH A GUY BIGGER AND STRONGER THAN ME!......lord, Kal-El would have been a dropout on krypton.)

Still, wolverine tend's to surprise people when he's the underdog. *And he IS well trained, when he remembers to use it.

Hm.....I'd put the odds 7-2 against wolvie.

PerpetualNewb
2006-05-04, 03:55 AM
Wolverine is a ground-based brawler. Superman flies 50 feet up and keeps up a constant barrage of heat vision on Wolverine. Once enough of Wolverine has been vaporized, Superman swoops down and removes Wolverine's head from his neck. Whether this is enough to kill Wolverine is a question better left to those more fully acquainted with the Wolverine lore.

Castamir
2006-05-04, 04:14 AM
The pseudo-scientific babble that tries to explain Superman's or Wolverine's physics just hurts. Plain hurts. It's unbearable to anyone who wasn't sleeping on physics lessons in school.
And I'm saying this in a D&D-related forum.

Come on, folks. The only thing in D&D that managed to get me riled up was the "cold iron" thingy, stemming from the fact that someone completely missed a popular literary term. An obvious literary term, too -- in a typical temperate zone outdoor/in-castle/cottage temperature (10-20C) try touching a chunk of iron, and then a chunk of brass, silver or about any popular non-iron metal. The former will be noticeably cold to the touch, the latter will feel much warmer.
Basically most of other stuff can be explained by magic or by a moderate amount of stretching.

On the other hand, the DC "science" is pretty much cattle excrements.

KayJay
2006-05-04, 05:12 AM
Wolverine could conceivably cut Superman with his claws- after all, he managed to lop off Thor's hand, and he enjoys a similar invulnerability to Superman. The main difference would be reflexes- superman would see it coming a mile off, seeing as he can catch bullets, and would most likely move in the direction of the blow, or dodge the instant it begins to slice his skin. This is all providing wolverine can put enough force behind it- after all, he's only got slightly above average strength.

Rex_Hondo
2006-05-04, 06:31 AM
Well, I'm not sure whether Thor has the same level of invulnerability as Big Blue, or, for that matter, whether every incarnation of Thor (there have been a few) has had the same durability. *

As to taking Wolvie's head clean off. *As I recalled, this was addressed in the Xavier Protocols. *The plan to take Wolverine out should he go rogue involved taking his head off and immediately removing it from the vicinity of his body to prevent it from healing back on. *Of course, as has been mentioned before, chucking it into the sun does the trick nicely. :P

LostInBrittany
2006-05-04, 07:12 AM
Am I the only one that when reading Big Blue thinks of IBM or of Luc Besson's movie instead of Superman ? :)

halo2994
2006-05-04, 10:24 AM
As to taking Wolvie's head clean off. *As I recalled, this was addressed in the Xavier Protocols. *The plan to take Wolverine out should he go rogue involved taking his head off and immediately removing it from the vicinity of his body to prevent it from healing back on.

that is a crazy protocal right there

I'm not too up to date on the goings on of the X-men, but are thier protocols like that for all of the X-men, or just the ones that are likly to go rogue?

OMG, what about Rogue!!! she is rogue by her very nature!!!

-halo

Red_Decker
2006-05-04, 10:28 AM
Superman may be able to catch bullets, but he does dodge the thrown gun after it runs out of bullets... Humor aside, Wolverine has proven to be an almost equal match to the incredible hulk who could conceiveably beat superman into paste if he got angry enough. Supermans only offese against the hulk is his strength due to the fact The hulk is invulnerable to heat and fire. D&D invulnerable.
Supes also isn't very good at judging strengths of an enemy, proved by Doomsday, he might be cocky enough to simply walk up and demand surrender thus ending up a shish-kabob.

As for the superspeed thing, Wolverine has fought many beings several times faster then him, such as Quicksilver.

Another note is that Wolverine has beaten Lobo, one of those beings that has beaten the paste out of Supes. So , Wolverine seems to have a pretty good chance of hurting Superman, possibly even beating Superman. So, yes Wolveine could gut the last kryptonian if given the chance.

Nekkira
2006-05-04, 10:37 AM
Did anyone else get a chuckle over Superman being 'infinitely dense'? I am not a reader of the Superman comics, though I do like the TV shows. But Superman is generally shown to have a relatively low Wisdom score. He doesn't seem to understand how other people think or feel, he has no idea as to their motives and is (even as superman) socially somewhat inept.

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-04, 11:03 AM
*groans at this whole thread*

I don't read the comics, though I'm a big fan of the X-men cartoon and movie series.

However, lets use common sense.

Superman is not just fast, but impossibly fast. He could shred wolverine in the blink of an eye. He could go to china, have tea, come back, and wolverine would still be coming through with his first swing.

However, as said, Superman is ridiculously powerful to the point he's not only no fun, you have to get really stupid just to find a weakness.

But as the movies, and particularly Smallville *shudders* shows, Superman's speed is actually that of Plot. The Speed of Plot allows him to outrace an explosion, run circles around a bullet, and circle the earth several times a second. However, he will never be fast enough to save the 'red ensign' girlfriend just down the road or move quickly enough to avoid being hit in the head with a chunk of cryptonite being swung by a quite normal human arm.

So to put it in a nutshell, no, Wolverine cannot even approach the proximity of closeness required to touch Superman... except when he can.

KayJay
2006-05-04, 12:41 PM
Superman may be able to catch bullets, but he does dodge the thrown gun after it runs out of bullets... Humor aside, Wolverine has proven to be an almost equal match to the incredible hulk who could conceiveably beat superman into paste if he got angry enough. Supermans only offese against the hulk is his strength due to the fact The hulk is invulnerable to heat and fire. D&D invulnerable.
Supes also isn't very good at judging strengths of an enemy, proved by Doomsday, he might be cocky enough to simply walk up and demand surrender thus ending up a shish-kabob.

As for the superspeed thing, Wolverine has fought many beings several times faster then him, such as Quicksilver.

Another note is that Wolverine has beaten Lobo, one of those beings that has beaten the paste out of Supes. So , Wolverine seems to have a pretty good chance of hurting Superman, possibly even beating Superman. So, yes Wolveine could gut the last kryptonian if given the chance.
Quicksilver is roughly the speed of sound if I recall correctly, which is way way way below Superman's speed, which is only slightly below the Flash, who can travel at the speed of light when necessary.
I've not seen the Wolverine-Lobo fight, but I have to say, I'm pretty sure there must have been extenuating circumstances, mainly because I can't see Lobo getting stabbed and falling over- he'd probably just laugh and stab himself again for fun before carrying on.

Yossarian
2006-05-04, 01:25 PM
I've not seen the Wolverine-Lobo fight, but I have to say, I'm pretty sure there must have been extenuating circumstances, mainly because I can't see Lobo getting stabbed and falling over- he'd probably just laugh and stab himself again for fun before carrying on.

Of course there were extenuating circumstances. Namely, Wolverine was a much more popular character.

DBoot
2006-05-04, 02:44 PM
I don't really like either of them (Superman is overpowered and boring. Wolverine is overexposed and overrated). But I'd give it to Superman. Wolverine might be able to cut him, but if Superman isn't having one of his idiot momments, Wolverine won't get a chance. If Wolverine caught Superman completely by surprise, maybe. Maybe. If Superman's super senses are online though, this is unlikely.

If you divorce their powers and skills from their personalities (So Superman isn't tactically incompetent or naive, and Wolverine can actually think instead of go berserk), It is overwhelmingly in Superman's favor.

Honestly, if you get rid of inhibitions and character quirks, my vote for greatest fighter is the Flash.

gooddragon1
2006-05-04, 03:23 PM
Wolverine might not be able to beat supes on his own, but if he had the help of magneto he could "fly" or even move faster than supes
BTW Telekinesis non-D&D crush supes brain inside skull or stop blood flowing to heart FTW! could be done with mage hand if it allowed manipulation of internal parts

Orion-the-G
2006-05-04, 03:58 PM
Honestly, if you get rid of inhibitions and character quirks, my vote for greatest fighter is the Flash.

He has on at least one occasion phased someone's brain out of their skull.

Alchemistmerlin
2006-05-04, 04:35 PM
Superman wins.

Wolverine isn't nearly as great as his pals would have us believe. He can die. In fact, the Hulk RIPPED HIM IN HALF once, and threw his legs 4 miles from his chest. Because yes, the bones are unbreakable, but the ligaments holding them together are not.

Frankly, supes could just pick him up and toss him into the sun. The rate of the sun burning him is faster than Wolvie's regenerative property, and as such wolvie would die. His skeleton would still be there, but all of his skin and muscle would be gone. 1 round out.

Or, since superman "Doesn't kill" 1 punch to wolvie's head and he's unconcious because Wolvie is Really Strong and superman is SUPER strong.

Zzarchov
2006-05-04, 06:25 PM
unfortunately superman would be too distracted listening to Sienfeld give a sales pitch about american express.

6079smithw
2006-05-04, 06:33 PM
The answer to any question of who vs. who in a world in which Hulk exists is 'Hulk wins.' Because Hulk strongest one there is. Also, I think Superman would take Wolverine on purely tactical grounds- Superman is much more mobile, and Wolverine isn't likely to think a fight through in advance enough to overcome that. I'm pretty sure Superman has demonstrated that he's bright enough to realize that "I fly and you walk" equals "nah, nah, can't hurt me."

turkishproverb
2006-05-04, 08:45 PM
Superman wins.

Wolverine isn't nearly as great as his pals would have us believe. *He can die. *In fact, the Hulk RIPPED HIM IN HALF once, and threw his legs 4 miles from his chest. *Because yes, the bones are unbreakable, but the ligaments holding them together are not.


Ah, that was Ultimate hulk and Ultimate wolverine, from the Ultimate comics, not Marvel U hulk and wolverine.

Diffferent universe, different physics, differen hulk, different wolverine, different adimantium.

Orion-the-G
2006-05-04, 09:53 PM
Which I suppose makes it almost as valid as anything else said here. Considering it's still a different universe with different physics.

turkishproverb
2006-05-04, 10:14 PM
I was just saying it would be like using Red SOn superman as the superman in your stats despite the alternate universe thing affecting what he is capable of.

RedishBeast
2006-05-04, 10:50 PM
I'm pretty sure Superman has demonstrated that he's bright enough to realize that "I fly and you walk" equals "nah, nah, can't hurt me."

you have just made my night. :D

Millikin_Erreene
2006-05-04, 11:33 PM
If it's a DC writer, Superman is going to win. If it's Marvel then its going to be Wolverine.

xyzchyx
2006-05-05, 02:28 AM
First of all, what does this thread have to do with OOTS?

That said...


The answer to any question of who vs. who in a world in which Hulk exists is 'Hulk wins.' Because Hulk strongest one there is.Uhmmm... even Thor? Come on.... Hulk is mortal, Thor is a god. There's no comparison.

As for the topic, Superman is supposedly physically invulnerable. Literally. That means that no physical force can harm him, regardless of its force or properties. The only things or creatures that can harm him are of similar extraterretrial origin acquiring the same sort of "superness" as he does while under our yellow sun.

However, adamantium is also supposedly indestructable. What would likely happen therefore is wolvies claws would simply be unable to pass through Supe's skin. However, Superman's skin would not break Wolverine's claws.

Superman is several orders of magnitude stronger than Wolverine would be, however, and could probably quite easily restrain him, so it's probably no contest. Superman would win.

CelestialStick
2006-05-05, 02:32 AM
First of all, what does this thread have to do with OOTS?

That said...

Uhmmm... even Thor? Come on.... Hulk is mortal, Thor is a god. There's no comparison.

As for the topic, Superman is supposedly physically invulnerable. Literally. That means that no physical force can harm him, regardless of its force or properties. The only things or creatures that can harm him are of similar extraterretrial origin acquiring the same sort of "superness" as he does while under our yellow sun.

However, adamantium is also supposedly indestructable. What would likely happen therefore is wolvies claws would simply be unable to pass through Supe's skin. However, Superman's skin would not break Wolverine's claws.

Superman is several orders of magnitude stronger than Wolverine would be, however, and could probably quite easily restrain him, so it's probably no contest. Superman would win.

I have to agree. I also think that the notion of Wolverine beating Thor is silly. Don't get me wrong; I think Wolverine is a cool character. He just doesn't have the sort of power that Thor (or Superman) has.

CelestialStick
2006-05-05, 02:38 AM
Also, I think Superman would take Wolverine on purely tactical grounds- Superman is much more mobile, and Wolverine isn't likely to think a fight through in advance enough to overcome that. I'm pretty sure Superman has demonstrated that he's bright enough to realize that "I fly and you walk" equals "nah, nah, can't hurt me."

Indeed, in an episode of Lois and Clark some scientists turned a street punk into a kryptonite-powere cyborg, who started kicking Superman's butt. So Superman flew up where the cyborg couldn't reach him, and used his heat vision to melt the cyborg's cybernetic legs.

Orion-the-G
2006-05-05, 02:55 AM
First of all, what does this thread have to do with OOTS?

That said...

Uhmmm... even Thor? Come on.... Hulk is mortal, Thor is a god. There's no comparison.

I've seen at least one comic of them fighting it out. Thor survived...because hulk got bored and bounced off.

God =/= indestructable or all powerful. Heck, the norse gods lost limbs and various other body parts to none-gods. Who says hulk isn't on the same scale as fenris wolf or the giants? Just because he's not a spiritual or supernatural being doesn't limit his power.



As for the topic, Superman is supposedly physically invulnerable. Literally. That means that no physical force can harm him, regardless of its force or properties. The only things or creatures that can harm him are of similar extraterretrial origin acquiring the same sort of "superness" as he does while under our yellow sun.


I'm practically certain this is not the case. As has been pointed out he's been beaten up, he's been hurt. His invulnerabiliy is not total. Even if it's not magic (which he explicitly isn't invulnerable to) it can hurt him if it's strong enough.

Of course there have been so many incarnations of superman in so many mediums that it's pretty much impossible to say which is considered 'canon'

AmoDman
2006-05-05, 03:33 AM
I've seen at least one comic of them fighting it out. Thor survived...because hulk got bored and bounced off.

God =/= indestructable or all powerful. Heck, the norse gods lost limbs and various other body parts to none-gods. Who says hulk isn't on the same scale as fenris wolf or the giants? Just because he's not a spiritual or supernatural being doesn't limit his power.

In a superhero world, using deities from myths where they can be physicall interacted with, yes, there is no guaruntee the deity is innately stronger than the super ;).



I'm practically certain this is not the case. As has been pointed out he's been beaten up, he's been hurt. His invulnerabiliy is not total. Even if it's not magic (which he explicitly isn't invulnerable to) it can hurt him if it's strong enough.

Of course there have been so many incarnations of superman in so many mediums that it's pretty much impossible to say which is considered 'canon'


I agree. I mean, how many times have we seen Superman hurt/scrathed/whatever. If the the force is strong enough, he can be hurt. Though it's already been said in the thread, my opinion is simple that, yes, Wolverine's claws probably are sharp enough to cut into/through Superman. However he'd -
A. Have to have the opportunity to do so (though Superman's enemies often to seem to have many opportunities to hurt him they shouldn't then they fight). And,

B. Have to be able to deliver enough force behind his claw's sharpness to make it cut through. This one I'm not so sure of...I mean, think of a knife and a tree. You could feasible cut all the way through the tree with said knife (albeit, with some damage) if you were strong enough. We've seen wolverine do this, however. Partly because he is really strong, and partly because his claws are so supremely sharp and tough. It is, however, hard to believe that he'd be strong enough to cut through Supes (though Thor would be good precendent...).

Piedmon_Sama
2006-05-05, 03:41 AM
I'm surprised at the number of people who blatantly disregarded the opening post on this thread. It's explicitly NOT asking "who would win in a fight." Superman has several hundred different ways to win to choose from. That's a given.

The question posed is, if allowed to hit Superman with his claws, could Wolverine cut the kryptonian? The answer is no, but it has nothing to do with "super-density."

Wolverine's adamantium can cut through anything, it's true. However, that is limited by Wolverine's strength. While his claws are sharp enough to pierce the Hulk's skin, Wolverine lacks the strength to push it through the jade giant's hide.

Superman's invulnerability, on the other hand, is totally unrelated to his skin. You see, Superman's powers come from his cells, which are "super-charged" by the radiation of earth's yellow sun. These cells generate a skin-hugging energy field that acts as an all-protective blanket over Superman's body. (From the inside, too.) This is why Superman's (skintight) outfit is so hard to damage. Admittedly, this wasn't always the nature of Superman's invulnerability, but this is how it was established by John Byrne following the conclusion of Infinite Crisis in 1986, and is the current canon of the character's comic book appearances.

Explanations of this field vary. Some think it is generated off bio-electricity, while others think it's an electromagnetic field. Personally, I think it's a form of low-grade telekenesis that keeps the shield constantly up around Superman's body*. It was also explained by Byrne that this field extends over any particularly large object Superman uproots and lifts (like a skyscraper) to keep it from crumbling under its own weight once divorced from the ground.

*I hold to the telekenesis theory because Superman's clone from the cadmus project (the "Superboy" who appeared in the mid-90's) had these "latent abilities" developed into his "tactile telekenesis" abilities.

CelestialStick
2006-05-05, 03:51 AM
Ah, that was Ultimate hulk and Ultimate wolverine, from the Ultimate comics, not Marvel U hulk and wolverine.

Diffferent universe, different physics, differen hulk, different wolverine, different adimantium.

How did Ultimate Comics get away with publishing comics about Superheroes owned by Marvel?

Rei_Jin
2006-05-05, 04:06 AM
In regards to the OP's question, I reckon that if Wolverine could hit Superman, one of two things would happen.

1. The Admantium would rip itself out of Wolverine's body as he fails to push the blow through Superman's skin.

2. Superman gets ripped to shreds.

As it depends entirely on how the artists are feeling at the time, I couldn't say beyond that.

Remember however, in a Versus battle either may win.

Spiderman beat Wolverine at one point. Yet, Wolverine beat The Hulk.

Superman in the end has beaten everyone.

It depends on plot.

CelestialStick
2006-05-05, 04:11 AM
I'm surprised at the number of people who blatantly disregarded the opening post on this thread. It's explicitly NOT asking "who would win in a fight." Superman has several hundred different ways to win to choose from. That's a given.

The question posed is, if allowed to hit Superman with his claws, could Wolverine cut the kryptonian? The answer is no, but it has nothing to do with "super-density."

Wolverine's adamantium can cut through anything, it's true. However, that is limited by Wolverine's strength. While his claws are sharp enough to pierce the Hulk's skin, Wolverine lacks the strength to push it through the jade giant's hide.

Superman's invulnerability, on the other hand, is totally unrelated to his skin. You see, Superman's powers come from his cells, which are "super-charged" by the radiation of earth's yellow sun. These cells generate a skin-hugging energy field that acts as an all-protective blanket over Superman's body. (From the inside, too.) This is why Superman's (skintight) outfit is so hard to damage. Admittedly, this wasn't always the nature of Superman's invulnerability, but this is how it was established by John Byrne following the conclusion of Infinite Crisis in 1986, and is the current canon of the character's comic book appearances.

Explanations of this field vary. Some think it is generated off bio-electricity, while others think it's an electromagnetic field. Personally, I think it's a form of low-grade telekenesis that keeps the shield constantly up around Superman's body*. It was also explained by Byrne that this field extends over any particularly large object Superman uproots and lifts (like a skyscraper) to keep it from crumbling under its own weight once divorced from the ground.

*I hold to the telekenesis theory because Superman's clone from the cadmus project (the "Superboy" who appeared in the mid-90's) had these "latent abilities" developed into his "tactile telekenesis" abilities.


I went back and read the first post to this thread, and I see that the poster did not intend to ask whether Wolverine could beat Superman, as she stated that obviously Superman would win.

As for the claws doing lethal damage to Superman, since they're not magical and not made of kryptonite, I'd say no.

As for the source of Superman's invulnerability, it started out that he was bullet-proof because, well, the kids who invented him wanted him to be even tougher than Doc Savage, the Man of Bronze, so they made their Man of Steel bullet proof. So far as I know, they had no explanation, Superman just was bullet-proof.

By the time I was reading Superman comics in the 1960s, DC had established that he got his powers from the yellow sun. I don't recall any explanation other than that, though I wasn't the avid reader that my brother was, so perhaps I missed something. I'm pretty sure that the George Reeves Superman didn't get his powers from the sun. In the first Superman movie, Jor-El remarks to Lara that "his dense molecular structure will make him virtually invulnerable" or something to that effect. In a subsequent Superman movie (I think it was Superman IV, The Quest for Peace) Lex Luthor is able to use the fact that Superman gets his powers from the sun to create an evil creature cloned from Superman's DNA which also draws its powers (but much more heavily) from the sun--the creature basically turns off in the darkness.

Of course it's possible that he has a dense molecular (or atomic) structure and gets power from a yellow sun.

I think I had heard something about the skintight forcefield theory, especially since his costume usually survives. In at least two episodes of Lois and Clark, however, we see the uniform getting damaged or destroyed. In one early espide, he's asking his mother on the phone how to get a bomb stain out of his uniform. In a much later episode he flies into space to stop an asteroid from crashing into the earth, and after he hits the asteroid he crashes back into the earth, completely naked, his uniform having been incinerated in the collision with the asteroid.

I've speculated for some years now that Superman does indeed have a dense atomic structure, but that he also has the innate ability to manipulate gravitons in his vicinity, changing the local gravity field so that he can interact safely with fragile humans (by reducing the gravity his dense body would produce) and fly (by reducing the effect of the Earth's gravity on himself).

KayJay
2006-05-05, 04:28 AM
How did Ultimate Comics get away with publishing comics about Superheroes owned by Marvel?
The "ultimate" comics line is produced by Marvel, it's just in another setting from "traditional" marvel stories.

I don't get why people are saying superman is literally invulnerable, as he's not in the least. He has weaknesses of kryptonite and magic, but forces outside these two can still harm him fine, it's just very difficult. Doomsday was purely physical, for example, and he hurt Superman fine, and we have countless references of Superman being hurt by physical forces, that it's not even worth citing an example. If he was literally invulnerable, rather than practically, then it'd be very boring reading.

P.s: This is the comics forum, so this is why this is here despite it not being about OotS.

CelestialStick
2006-05-05, 04:55 AM
The "ultimate" comics line is produced by Marvel, it's just in another setting from "traditional" marvel stories.

I don't get why people are saying superman is literally invulnerable, as he's not in the least. He has weaknesses of kryptonite and magic, but forces outside these two can still harm him fine, it's just very difficult. Doomsday was purely physical, for example, and he hurt Superman fine, and we have countless references of Superman being hurt by physical forces, that it's not even worth citing an example. If he was literally invulnerable, rather than practically, then it'd be very boring reading.

P.s: This is the comics forum, so this is why this is here despite it not being about OotS.

Thanks for the information about ultimate comics.

So far as Superman being virtually invulnerable, I was quoting Jor-El from the first Superman movie. In the animated comic series (like The New Batman/Superman Adventures, Justice League, and Justice League Unlimited) I've seen Superman beat up and zapped by energy weapons that caused him pain and perhaps knocked him out too. So obviously he can feel pain. I've never seen anyone, no matter how strong, actually kill him. I've also never read the comics containing Doomsday, but I'm thinking that those comics are the ones from The Death of Superman. Except that, as I understand it, he didn't really die but came back split in three, or something to that effect.

On the flip side we saw Superman survive a nuclear blast in the second Superman movie and walk into the heart of the reaction chamber of a nuclear power plant in Lois and Clark. In fact in the episode of Lois and Clark he's been infected with kryptonite and goes into reactor hoping to essentially give himself a big dose of chemotherapy to burn out the kryptonite, so he's even weakened when he goes in there. Naturally he survives.

So there's been a lack of consistency, perhaps, in the portrayals of Superman's vulnerability. Sometimes the authors just make him more vulnerable than other times to fit a plot, just like they have established that he's smart but then have him just fly up to nearly every problem and punch it, or stand there and let someone hit him with some ray or whatever instead of snatching it out of the someone's hands before the someone can pull the trigger on the ray gun.

The way I've reconciled it for myself is that sufficient force can inflict non-lethal damage on Superman--cause him pain and even knock him out--but only (green) kryptonite can kill him.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-05-05, 05:42 AM
On the matter of Superman's disputed intellectual capacity. "Super-intellect," is indeed one of his powers. (Classically, at least.) However, this really only pertains to applied thinking. Superman can learn languages in seconds and build incredibly advanced machines on a thought. His super-intellect, however, does not grant him any special cleverness or reasoning power.

However, he's far from witless. The thing is, he acts straightforward because he's a straightforward kind of guy who believes in applying the most direct solution to any problem. Give Albert Einstein a cannon and a lever, then tell him to knock down a brick wall from the edge of a cliff. Yeah, he could do some fancy trick with physics and the lever and knock it down, but it'd be a lot easier to just light the fuse on the cannon and knock it down.

(I'm aware whacking a brick wall with a stick isn't actually brilliant physics use. Whatever, it's 3:00 AM and you all get my point...)

KayJay
2006-05-05, 05:47 AM
It's generally accepted that anything that appears in a movie is not officially canon, unless they state it as so. I don't recall them ever referring to what happened in a movie in a comic.

When Superman died, he really did die, and it wasn't anything to do with splitting into 3. Numerous imposters filled the void, but none were him in any sense of the word. One was a clone that had been in production for a while, one was a black man in an armored suit, one was the Eradicator, another was a Cyborg who hated Superman.
If I recall correctly, Superman came back because the Eradicator put him in some extremely high-tech chamber which resurrected him (and was a one-shot only thing), and even then, he came back with no powers. He got his powers back when the Eradicator transferred his energy to Superman.

AmoDman
2006-05-05, 07:47 AM
It's generally accepted that anything that appears in a movie is not officially canon, unless they state it as so. I don't recall them ever referring to what happened in a movie in a comic.

When Superman died, he really did die, and it wasn't anything to do with splitting into 3. Numerous imposters filled the void, but none were him in any sense of the word. One was a clone that had been in production for a while, one was a black man in an armored suit, one was the Eradicator, another was a Cyborg who hated Superman.
If I recall correctly, Superman came back because the Eradicator put him in some extremely high-tech chamber which resurrected him (and was a one-shot only thing), and even then, he came back with no powers. He got his powers back when the Eradicator transferred his energy to Superman.

That was the weirdest storyline ever...the classically established lines I tend to avoid as they've been around so long they've been over-inundated with crap like that. I do have one question though, the black guy in the armor wasn't Steel, then? I always assumed that's who that was supposed to be...(never read it myself, but I know the two were chums...sort of).

KayJay
2006-05-05, 07:50 AM
It WAS Steel AKA John Henry Irons, I just didn't bother mentioning names :)

Dhavaer
2006-05-05, 10:14 AM
Who is Steel?

aaronbourque
2006-05-05, 10:18 AM
Looking at the Batman vs Superman thread brought this old argument back to mind- could Wolverine harm Superman?
No. Wolverine's main weakness is his lack of long-range attack. Superman has a built-in long range attack: his heat vision. Thus, Wolverine could never touch Superman.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

KayJay
2006-05-05, 10:43 AM
Who is Steel?
A superman fan who made a suit of armor with the "S" insignia when Superman died. He's been around for a while, and was part of the JLA for a while too. He works with technology a lot.



No. Wolverine's main weakness is his lack of long-range attack. Superman has a built-in long range attack: his heat vision. Thus, Wolverine could never touch Superman.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

You're missing the point. This isn't a "who could beat who" in a fight, but a "If wolverine has a free pot-shot at Superman, would it even hurt?" type thread. Wolverine loses in an actual fight so badly it's not really up for discussion, but that's beside the point.

turkishproverb
2006-05-05, 10:45 AM
On the matter of Superman's disputed intellectual capacity. *"Super-intellect," is indeed one of his powers. (Classically, at least.)

Not in continuity anymore.

TinSoldier
2006-05-05, 10:56 AM
First of all, what does this thread have to do with OOTS?

From the Message Board index:

Comics (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics)
A forum for discussion of webcomics, comic books, and of course, the Order of the Stick.

WampaX
2006-05-05, 11:02 AM
First of all, what does this thread have to do with OOTS?


As has been pointed out in the above post, this is the correct forum for it.

And it warms my heart that people are talking about COMIC BOOKS in here once again. [tear]

Millikin_Erreene
2006-05-05, 02:59 PM
Just a couple of things.

Wolverine's claws cannot cut through telekinetic shields, the Blob's skin, Carbonadium (a weaker version of adamantium), pierce Cyber's skin (laced with adamantium) nor so much as scratch Captain America's shield which is made of vibranium (a substance stronger than adamantium) That is certainly precedent to claim he would be unable to pierce Superman's skin regardless of whichever theory you embrace to explain his toughness.

Wolverine is not an idiot nor an unskilled combatant. He is fluent in multiple languages and well versed in many of their cultural traditions and is highly competent in espionage and covert operations tactics. And in over 100 years of life to date, he has become highly proficient in several forms of martial arts and skilled in the use of most traditional weapons. I think he would have half a mind to get an idea of Superman's weakness and come up with the means to use it to his advantage should he find himself knowingly placed in a situation where they would come to blows.

That said, it all comes down to which comic company is writing the story and whatever plotline they developed to explain the crossover. With some of the crap they're churning out nowadays it wouldn't surprise me if they made an entire comicbook story arc revolve around Wolverine acquiring even more godlike powers for the express purpose of cutting the Man of Steel for a DNA sample.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-05-05, 03:38 PM
Just a couple of things.

Wolverine's claws cannot cut through telekinetic shields, the Blob's skin, Carbonadium (a weaker version of adamantium), pierce Cyber's skin (laced with adamantium) nor so much as scratch Captain America's shield which is made of vibranium (a substance stronger than adamantium) That is certainly precedent to claim he would be unable to pierce Superman's skin regardless of whichever theory you embrace to explain his toughness.

Actually, vibranium isn't a stronger metal than adamantium. Its only unusual property is that it deadens the vibrations of anything that strikes it, by absorbing the kinetic force. This is why Captain America can block a punch from the Hulk with his vibranium shield without being knocked back twenty-five blocks. Also, Cap's shield (presented to him by FDR in 1944) is a composite of Adamantium and Vibranium, a wholly unique alloy that is the strongest material in the universe.

But aside from that one unique item, there is nothing stronger than Pure-Grade Adamantium. True, Wolverine can't cut through any of those things--but only because he literally lacks the strength to push it through. A sufficient force behind an adamantium blade would be able to cut ANY material. Wolverine's claws are, in fact, so dense that they can effect immaterial objects (it gives Kitty Pryde nausea if Logan's claws pass through her while she's phased, a fact established by Claremont himself way back in the day.) Not that an electromagnetic field of sufficient strength couldn't repel it indefinitely.

BlythraB
2006-05-05, 05:12 PM
Wolverine would kick butt.
none of this nonsense about what wolverine's inards are made of. He would beat superman mostly because I'm willing it to be so.

turkishproverb
2006-05-05, 06:30 PM
Superman's invulnerability, on the other hand, is totally unrelated to his skin. *You see, Superman's powers come from his cells, which are "super-charged" by the radiation of earth's yellow sun. *These cells generate a skin-hugging energy field that acts as an all-protective blanket over Superman's body. *(From the inside, too.) *This is why Superman's (skintight) outfit is so hard to damage. *Admittedly, this wasn't always the nature of Superman's invulnerability, but this is how it was established by John Byrne following the conclusion of Infinite Crisis in 1986, and is the current canon of the character's comic book appearances.

*I hold to the telekenesis theory because Superman's clone from the cadmus project (the "Superboy" who appeared in the mid-90's) had these "latent abilities" developed into his "tactile telekenesis" abilities. *

Actually, as was mentioned several times in the Superboy run, in superman (any of the series) and in Teen Titans (series, not TV), Superboy's powers come soley, (or almost soley) upon the bio-energy-tactile-etc field. Superman's, however, have been made clear to be a combination of factors including this, earths gravity, and simple biological differences.

CelestialStick
2006-05-05, 10:13 PM
It's generally accepted that anything that appears in a movie is not officially canon, unless they state it as so. I don't recall them ever referring to what happened in a movie in a comic.

When Superman died, he really did die, and it wasn't anything to do with splitting into 3. Numerous imposters filled the void, but none were him in any sense of the word. One was a clone that had been in production for a while, one was a black man in an armored suit, one was the Eradicator, another was a Cyborg who hated Superman.
If I recall correctly, Superman came back because the Eradicator put him in some extremely high-tech chamber which resurrected him (and was a one-shot only thing), and even then, he came back with no powers. He got his powers back when the Eradicator transferred his energy to Superman.

I think it's silly to ignore the movies and tv shows, which have created the image of Superman for tens of millions of people.

So in the DC comics, Superman is dead then? Have they stopped publishing a Superman comic?

6079smithw
2006-05-05, 11:35 PM
I think it's silly to ignore the movies and tv shows, which have created the image of Superman for tens of millions of people.

So in the DC comics, Superman is dead then? Have they stopped publishing a Superman comic?

Superman is alive, because of the bottom few lines of that post- some guy brought him back to life. The thing about canon is that one basically has to pick what one is willing to believe, because there are innumerable, mutually contradictory facts and explanations about each character. In Batman, the Joker dies. In the comics, he's still alive. You can't have both. Most people consider the current comic series canon, but you can go ahead and just believe the Animated Series, or Frank Miller's stuff, or the pre-Infinite Crisis books, or (if you want) the movies- but the last really isn't similar enough to any of the others to make any arguments between them viable.

turkishproverb
2006-05-05, 11:37 PM
I think it's silly to ignore the movies and tv shows, which have created the image of Superman for tens of millions of people. *

So in the DC comics, Superman is dead then? *Have they stopped publishing a Superman comic?

No, superman came back from the dead. It happens a lot in comics: Note magneto, he die's like every year. Or cyclops: many deaths. Hal Jordan (green lantern) he's back from the dead. Ra's Al Gul die's all the time.

TinSoldier
2006-05-06, 12:00 AM
No, superman came back from the dead. It happens a lot in comics: Note magneto, he die's like every year. Or cyclops: many deaths. Hal Jordan (green lantern) he's back from the dead. Ra's Al Gul die's all the time.
Well, Ras Al Gul is different -- he is actively seeking to be immortal and has henchmen to help ensure that immortality.

AmoDman
2006-05-06, 12:22 AM
Well, Ras Al Gul is different -- he is actively seeking to be immortal and has henchmen to help ensure that immortality.

Indeedeth. (this posteth hath contributeth much to the conversation...eth)

CelestialStick
2006-05-06, 12:30 AM
Superman is alive, because of the bottom few lines of that post- some guy brought him back to life. The thing about canon is that one basically has to pick what one is willing to believe, because there are innumerable, mutually contradictory facts and explanations about each character. In Batman, the Joker dies. In the comics, he's still alive. You can't have both. Most people consider the current comic series canon, but you can go ahead and just believe the Animated Series, or Frank Miller's stuff, or the pre-Infinite Crisis books, or (if you want) the movies- but the last really isn't similar enough to any of the others to make any arguments between them viable.

I read those lines, but they said it was a one-shot deal, so that sounded like a temporary resurrection. I'm glad to hear they brought him back.

Orion-the-G
2006-05-06, 12:41 AM
One shot deal as in 'that means of ressurection would not work twice'

Of course, if superman were to die again, I'm sure they'd come up with some other way to bring him back. There's nothing authors like more than being able to cash in on the emotional impact of a beloved character dying and then keeping him alive afterwards.

it's like having your cake and eating it too.

CelestialStick
2006-05-06, 12:54 AM
No, superman came back from the dead. It happens a lot in comics: Note magneto, he die's like every year. Or cyclops: many deaths. Hal Jordan (green lantern) he's back from the dead. Ra's Al Gul die's all the time.


Yes. I understand, for instance, that in Marvel comics Jean Grey died and came back as the Phoenix.

CelestialStick
2006-05-06, 01:08 AM
Most people consider the current comic series canon, but you can go ahead and just believe the Animated Series, or Frank Miller's stuff, or the pre-Infinite Crisis books, or (if you want) the movies- but the last really isn't similar enough to any of the others to make any arguments between them viable.

I'd guess that by "most people" you mean most avid readers of the comics. I'd say that the live-action movies and tv shows have reached a much, much broader audience.

I think that the Superman of the comics might have reached the peak of his powers in the 1960s or perhaps 1970s, and the Superman of the movies reflects that power. I don't recall the Superman of the 1950s tv show doing things like repairing the San Andreas fault. He was strong, but not that strong, and you could regularly see him karate-chopping regular human bad-guys. In fact I don't recall any super-powered villains in the 1950s Superman tv show.

It does seem like the Superman of today's comics has gotten weaker again, although not perhaps to the level of the 1950s Superman tv show.

CelestialStick
2006-05-06, 01:17 AM
One shot deal as in 'that means of ressurection would not work twice'

Of course, if superman were to die again, I'm sure they'd come up with some other way to bring him back. There's nothing authors like more than being able to cash in on the emotional impact of a beloved character dying and then keeping him alive afterwards.

it's like having your cake and eating it too.

Well said. Of course they can't kill off a character too often, or it will reduce or eliminate the emotional impact of having the beloved character die. So besides Hal Jordan, Cyclops, Jean Grey and Superman, what other superheroes have died and come back to life?

6079smithw
2006-05-06, 02:03 AM
Well said. Of course they can't kill off a character too often, or it will reduce or eliminate the emotional impact of having the beloved character die. *So besides Hal Jordan, Cyclops, Jean Grey and Superman, what other superheroes have died and come back to life?
Jesus?
Sorry, couldn't help it. Batman had his spine broken in the '80s, which is pretty close to dying, but it got better. Captain America disappeared for a really long time, but was brought back with the explanation that he was frozen in a glacier, or something. Supergirl was killed off in Infinite Crisis, and a new one's shown up. It's rare to do a straight up 'dead and reborn' thing, but a lot of people pretty much die and then show up again.

Also, by 'most people' I meant 'most people who bother to debate what is canon', i.e. comic book nerds.

CelestialStick
2006-05-06, 02:13 AM
Jesus?
Sorry, couldn't help it. Batman had his spine broken in the '80s, which is pretty close to dying, but it got better. Captain America disappeared for a really long time, but was brought back with the explanation that he was frozen in a glacier, or something. Supergirl was killed off in Infinite Crisis, and a new one's shown up. It's rare to do a straight up 'dead and reborn' thing, but a lot of people pretty much die and then show up again.

Also, by 'most people' I meant 'most people who bother to debate what is canon', i.e. comic book nerds.

I heard about how Bane broke the Bat. Then someone else became the Batman, but he was a killer and Bruce Wayne had to don the cape and cowl once against to stop the murderous new Batman, or something to that effect.

I had heard something about Supergirl dying, although I hadn't paid it much mind. In fact I recall when the Death of Superman came out because there was a bit of a fuss about it, and I decided that I liked Superman too much to read about him dying.

So what was Infinite Crisis? Was that a mainline DC comic or an alternate universe, or what?

Don't you think "avid comic reader" sounds more respectful than "comic book nerd?" ;D

Edit: I also vaguely recall something about Captain America being kept in cryogenic sleep by the dubious agency (name of which escapes me at the moment) that both he and Logan (Wolverine) worked for at one time.

6079smithw
2006-05-06, 02:27 AM
Infinite Crisis was a major intertitle DC event in which they cleaned up all of the weird continuity stuff and basically reset everything- before that, there were a bunch of different characters living in different worlds. Afterwards, everyone was in one universe. Except that a few people, most notably Supergirl, didn't survive the transition. (It's not just canon DC, it created the current canon DC.)

CelestialStick
2006-05-06, 03:28 AM
I just read up on Jean Grey and it turns out she had not really died afterall. She was saved by the Phoenix-force and placed in a sort of pod under the lake where the space shuttle crashed while she healed. In the meantime the Phoenix-force assumed her identity, apparently not even realizing that it wasn't the real Jean Gray. The Phoenix-force Jean Grey turned evil, then good again, and then killed herself as the real Jean Grey would have.

Eventually the Avengers found her pod and brought it back to the Fantastic Four, but not before Cyclops had married a clone of Jean. The real Jean let herself out of the pod and later, when the clone went insane, destroyed the clone. You gotta love all those twists and turns!

Well getting back to the original topic of the thread, in the First X-Man movie I seem to recall Magneto bending Logan's claws. Is that right? If so, is that unique to the movie or does the comic book Magneto have that power too? If so, then maybe even in the comic books Wolverine's claws aren't quite what they're cracked up to be.

One thing I never understood in the move is why Wolverine can't just rip Sabretooth to shreds. I mean Sabretooth has a big bite and all, but it simply doesn't have the reach or damage potential of Logan's claws. I'd think that Logan would make mincemeat out of Sabretooth.

CelestialStick
2006-05-06, 03:36 AM
Infinite Crisis was a major intertitle DC event in which they cleaned up all of the weird continuity stuff and basically reset everything- before that, there were a bunch of different characters living in different worlds. Afterwards, everyone was in one universe. Except that a few people, most notably Supergirl, didn't survive the transition. (It's not just canon DC, it created the current canon DC.)

Gah! So Supergirl is dead in the current DC comic universe? I really liked her. When did the Infinite Crisis come out? I noticed that the recent Justice League Unlimited series had Supergirl alive and well (and at one point, fighting her clone). So apparently the animated series are not set in the same cannonical universe as the comics are.

Speaking of Supergirl, does anyone remember the 1980s Supergirl movie? It was a bitter disappointment. If you haven't seen it, don't. ;D

6079smithw
2006-05-06, 04:53 AM
Infinite Crisis was in the mid-80's, and as I mentioned, they have since brought her back (I don't think the current one has the same backstory, though.) The Animated universe, Batman: The Animated Series, Batman Beyond, Superman: The Animated Series, and Justice League (and JLU) follow a slightly different continuity than the books, which is why there were only two Robins and the current Green Lantern is John Stewart and not Kyle Rainer (although Rainer showed up in a S:TAS episode. Go figure.) They have their own continuity, though, which is why Terry McGinnis is consistently the future Batman. I personally like it better than the comic book one.

xyzchyx
2006-05-06, 11:27 AM
Gah! So Supergirl is dead in the current DC comic universe?The original DC comic Supergirl was Kara, cousin of Kal-El, who came to Earth from Argo City, a fragment of Krypton that survived (suspension of disbelief anyone?) the initial explosion that was preserved in an experimental dome for many years until it too finally perished. Kara's father, recognizing the imminent destruction of their city and realizing that his nephew was on Earth, sent his then teenage daughter there to join him. Supergirl, like several other DC heroes, died in the Crisis series that came out some 20 years ago or so now. The Supergirl that is in the DC comics now is not the original, and is not related to Superman in any way.

TinSoldier
2006-05-06, 02:07 PM
I just read up on Jean Grey and it turns out she had not really died afterall. She was saved by the Phoenix-force and placed in a sort of pod under the lake where the space shuttle crashed while she healed. In the meantime the Phoenix-force assumed her identity, apparently not even realizing that it wasn't the real Jean Gray. The Phoenix-force Jean Grey turned evil, then good again, and then killed herself as the real Jean Grey would have.I remember that. The Phoenix destroyed a star system with like a billion beings on it or something like that. I never bought X-Men comics myself, but I read my friend's. I loved the soap-opera stuff!


One thing I never understood in the move is why Wolverine can't just rip Sabretooth to shreds. I mean Sabretooth has a big bite and all, but it simply doesn't have the reach or damage potential of Logan's claws. I'd think that Logan would make mincemeat out of Sabretooth.Even in the comics, Sabretooth usually gets the better of Wolverine. He's stronger but otherwise has most of the same powers of Wolvie. I think he might even regen faster but I'm not sure.

It's funny -- on the X-Men TV show Wolverine is a lot like Worf on Star Trek. The biggest, baddest mofo but always gets his butt kicked anyway.

Ebon_Drake
2006-05-06, 03:51 PM
Well getting back to the original topic of the thread, in the First X-Man movie I seem to recall Magneto bending Logan's claws. *Is that right? *If so, is that unique to the movie or does the comic book Magneto have that power too? If so, then maybe even in the comic books Wolverine's claws aren't quite what they're cracked up to be.
I can't recall off-hand whether Magneto's bent them specifically, but on one occasion he ripped all of the adamantium out of Wolverine's body, so Magneto can manipulate the metal in the comics. Incidentally, his doing that revealed that Wolverine's claws were once just bone and had been laced with adamantium along with the rest of his skeleton, rather than having been pure metal claws that had been intentionally grafted onto his body (as everyone had assumed), which calls into question quite how sharp they would be.

Yossarian
2006-05-06, 03:55 PM
It's funny -- on the X-Men TV show Wolverine is a lot like Worf on Star Trek. The biggest, baddest mofo but always gets his butt kicked anyway.

In the comic book canon, at least, this isn't quite accurate--Wolverine is by no stretch of the imagination the biggest anything, considering he stands only a few inches over five foot tall. This does mitigate his reach advantage somewhat, seeing as Sabretooth is something like a foot and a half taller than he is.

TinSoldier
2006-05-06, 03:57 PM
In the comic book canon, at least, this isn't quite accurate--Wolverine is by no stretch of the imagination the biggest anything, considering he stands only a few inches over five foot tall. This does mitigate his reach advantage somewhat, seeing as Sabretooth is something like a foot and a half taller than he is.Okay, I wasn't meaning biggest as large here... I could just have said baddest but I was emphasizing.

CelestialStick
2006-05-06, 11:08 PM
Infinite Crisis was in the mid-80's, and as I mentioned, they have since brought her back (I don't think the current one has the same backstory, though.) The Animated universe, Batman: The Animated Series, Batman Beyond, Superman: The Animated Series, and Justice League (and JLU) follow a slightly different continuity than the books, which is why there were only two Robins and the current Green Lantern is John Stewart and not Kyle Rainer (although Rainer showed up in a S:TAS episode. Go figure.) They have their own continuity, though, which is why Terry McGinnis is consistently the future Batman. I personally like it better than the comic book one.

Sorry, I went back and read your earlier post and see that I missed the part about the return of Supergirl.

I saw an episode of the New Batman/Superman Adventures in which Superman finds a remote Kryptonian outpost with two parents and their daughter in suspended animation. Only the daughter, Kara, has survived, and Superman brings her back to Earth for the Kents to raise. Kara's secret identity is Clark's cousin, although she's not really his cousin, just another Kyrptonian he rescued.

Edit: From what I've heard of the post-Infinite Crisis storyline, I don't like it as much as the storyline of the animates series.

Oh, by the way, I was looking at a Superman website and noticed that it had a category for pre-Crisis comics from 1938 to 1986, so I gather than the Infinity Crisis started in 1986 or 1987.

CelestialStick
2006-05-06, 11:16 PM
The original DC comic Supergirl was Kara, cousin of Kal-El, who came to Earth from Argo City, a fragment of Krypton that survived (suspension of disbelief anyone?) the initial explosion that was preserved in an experimental dome for many years until it too finally perished. Kara's father, recognizing the imminent destruction of their city and realizing that his nephew was on Earth, sent his then teenage daughter there to join him. Supergirl, like several other DC heroes, died in the Crisis series that came out some 20 years ago or so now. The Supergirl that is in the DC comics now is not the original, and is not related to Superman in any way.

You know, I vaguely recall that Argo City storyline from the 1960s. Larry Niven wrote a very funny analysis of how Superman could have children, and Supergirl was the only one he wouldn't hurt in the process, but alas, she was his cousin. With the post-Infinity Crisis rewrite of Kara's origins, that would no longer be a problem. ;D Well the Supergirl of the JL/JLU was still named Kara; is the Supergirl of the comics also still named Kara?

I can't remember what origin they gave for the Supergirl of the horrible movie. Maybe I've blanked it out. ;D Does anyone recall?

Edit: The Krytonian outpost storyline, by the way, sounds more plausible than the Argo City storyline, which as you noted, requires rather more than the usual suspension of disbelief. :)

AmoDman
2006-05-07, 03:19 AM
I can't remember what origin they gave for the Supergirl of the horrible movie. *Maybe I've blanked it out. ;D Does anyone recall?

I remember seeing it on tv once or twice when I was younger, but all I remember about the movies was her origin of coming from a surviving sort of crystal domed city (Argo city, apparently) that, if I recall correctly, was destroyed somehow which was in direct relation with her being sent to Earth. I don't know if I'm remembering that right, but the basic point is, they went with the Argo angle.

PerpetualNewb
2006-05-07, 03:47 AM
You know, I vaguely recall that Argo City storyline from the 1960s. Larry Niven wrote a very funny analysis of how Superman could have children, and Supergirl was the only one he wouldn't hurt in the process, but alas, she was his cousin. With the post-Infinity Crisis rewrite of Kara's origins, that would no longer be a problem. ;D Well the Supergirl of the JL/JLU was still named Kara; is the Supergirl of the comics also still named Kara?

I can't remember what origin they gave for the Supergirl of the horrible movie. Maybe I've blanked it out. ;D Does anyone recall?

Edit: The Krytonian outpost storyline, by the way, sounds more plausible than the Argo City storyline, which as you noted, requires rather more than the usual suspension of disbelief. :)

I've got a 70s comic where they do a recap/flashback to the Argo City story. Bit of Krypton breaks off frmo teh main planet when it explodes, complete with atmosphere. Somehow, the people are now deathly allergic to their home planet, which they are still living on. They get around this by covering the entire surface with lead. As if that wasn't bad enough, a meteor swarm from the exploded bits of Krypton comes crashing sometime later, ripping holes in the lead and killing them. Completely ridiculous.

CelestialStick
2006-05-07, 07:43 PM
I've got a 70s comic where they do a recap/flashback to the Argo City story. Bit of Krypton breaks off frmo teh main planet when it explodes, complete with atmosphere. Somehow, the people are now deathly allergic to their home planet, which they are still living on. They get around this by covering the entire surface with lead. As if that wasn't bad enough, a meteor swarm from the exploded bits of Krypton comes crashing sometime later, ripping holes in the lead and killing them. Completely ridiculous.

Heh. You gotta love those clever plots. :)

CelestialStick
2006-05-07, 07:44 PM
I remember seeing it on tv once or twice when I was younger, but all I remember about the movies was her origin of coming from a surviving sort of crystal domed city (Argo city, apparently) that, if I recall correctly, was destroyed somehow which was in direct relation with her being sent to Earth. I don't know if I'm remembering that right, but the basic point it, they went with the Argo angle.

Thanks. That crystal domed city rings a bell.

Finwe
2006-05-07, 08:41 PM
or even just being away from a yellow sun. \

Wait, superman has powers because the sun is yellow? So if someone were to put a yellow tarp over him, he'd lose all of his super-powers?

Orion-the-G
2006-05-07, 09:47 PM
It isn't instantaneous but several plots against him have involved basically that premise. Altering the atmosphere, changing the light, or somehow screwing with things to render the sunlight orange or green or whatever. However it takes a while for it to really weaken him (otherwise he'd be powerless at night/underground).

AmoDman
2006-05-08, 12:00 AM
It isn't instantaneous but several plots against him have involved basically that premise. Altering the atmosphere, changing the light, or somehow screwing with things to render the sunlight orange or green or whatever. However it takes a while for it to really weaken him (otherwise he'd be powerless at night/underground).

BIIIIIIIIRRRRRDDMAN! ;)

CelestialStick
2006-05-08, 06:40 AM
It isn't instantaneous but several plots against him have involved basically that premise. Altering the atmosphere, changing the light, or somehow screwing with things to render the sunlight orange or green or whatever. However it takes a while for it to really weaken him (otherwise he'd be powerless at night/underground).


I recall and episode of the New Batman/Superman Adventures where someone had managed to place a red field over Metropolis and then cause a lot of havoc requiring Superman to fly around and lift heavy things, using up his energy. He was in bad shape until someone cut off the field, and then it was bad to super as usual.

In an episode of Lois and Clark some magnetic eletricity guy manages to fight Superman in a missile silo. Superman has been drained and it's looking pretty bad for him when Lois opens the overhead missile doors and he's bad to super again. He rips off the magnetic guy's protective suit and every ferrous object in the place flies to magnetic guy, trapping him with his own magnetic field. I just love superhero storylines!

ObadiahtheSlim
2006-05-08, 12:37 PM
Superman wins cause he is a god mode 'sploiter.

Rex_Hondo
2006-05-13, 12:27 AM
Not to stray too far further from the topic, but not only did Magneto rip the adamantium from Wolverine's body, on more than one occasion, he's just picked Wolvie up and flung him around the room claws-first as a weapon against the other X-Men.

CelestialStick
2006-05-13, 01:42 AM
Not to stray too far further from the topic, but not only did Magneto rip the adamantium from Wolverine's body, on more than one occasion, he's just picked Wolvie up and flung him around the room claws-first as a weapon against the other X-Men.


Ooh, nasty. Did they ever reveal who gave Logan the adamantanium in the first place? Did he ever get it back after Magneto ripped it out? If so, how?

Rex_Hondo
2006-05-13, 04:10 AM
Ooh, nasty. *Did they ever reveal who gave Logan the adamantanium in the first place? Did he ever get it back after Magneto ripped it out? If so, how?

Wolverine was given the adamantium by the original Weapon-X Project. I'm pretty sure he got it back, but I had stopped picking up the X-Books by that point, so I'm not sure how...

Millikin_Erreene
2006-05-13, 07:28 AM
"Did he ever get it back after Magneto ripped it out? If so, how?"

Ultimately...
Apocalypse set up a battle between Sabretooth and Wolverine to determine who would be his Horseman of Death. When Wolverine won, Apocalypse stripped the traces of adamantium from Sabretooth (something he obtained while working for X-Factor) and bonded it to Wolverine's skeleton.

KayJay
2006-05-14, 05:08 PM
Does anyone know what issue this was? I do recall seeing Wolverine's adamantium stripped, as well as himin feral state, I didn't read the issue where he got his adamantium back though.

Foeofthelance
2006-05-15, 11:32 PM
Sorry, I don't know exactly when he got it back. A bit of Wolverine lore I sadly lack.

AS for Superman. Think of him as a giant solar powered laptop battery. He gets energy from solar radiation put out on a specific wavelength/frequency only produced by a yellow sun. Doing anything to cut him off from this, such as cutting of that particular wavelength or altering it, causes his him to begin drainging power, just as if some one had removed the power cord charging the battery. Remove the interference (i.e. plug him back in) and he can immeadiately act at full power, even if he is still charging back up.

As far as a fight is concerned, Superman might win. I emphasize the might. As has been pointed out before, he has many more powers, but he's sort of like a power ranger. He never escalates a fight he doesn't need to, mostly for fear of hurting the people around him. After all, how many villains have managed to distract him by merely throwing a bus at the crowd of on lookers? So in a fight against Wolverine, it would be knock down dragged out fist fight. How long and dangerous it is depends entirely on when Wolverine pops his claws. If he waits a while, the fight could go on until he got hungry. If he started with them out, he's toast.

Yes, the claws would hurt Superman. Adamantium can cut through just about anything, save for special fields, and any of the other metals based on it. (Vibranium if I remember correctly, is actually an adamantine based alloy, which is why he can't cut it.) Superman doesn't have specialized density, and even that wouldn't stop him from getting cut. Instead as far as I can tell it works a bit like kevlar, and spreads the energy out over a maximized area. And just like Kevlar, cutting into it is extremely effective.

StudlyDuck
2006-05-16, 12:08 AM
I'd say this is a pretty tricky scenario.

As previously mentioned, Wolverine took out Lobo who has proven to be nearly Superman's equal. It has also been noted that Wolverine is almost equal to the Hulk. What wasn't mentioned is that Superman beat the Hulk. Granted, it was the smart Hulk, who has never been quite the same engine of destruction as the nearly unstoppable, dumb Hulk.

If I had to pick, though, I'd say Wolverine wins just because he fights dirty. Alien physiology or not, adamantium claws to the family jewels probably hurt.

Rex_Hondo
2006-05-16, 03:35 AM
Point of information. Infinite Crisis is the crossover story-arc that DC just finished. The one in the 80s was Crisis on Infinite Earths.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion...

The way I see it, adamantium skeleton or not, the hydroshock alone of an even partially powered Superman blow to the dome would leave Wolvie's healing factor resorting neurons for a good day or so.

KayJay
2006-05-16, 04:16 AM
I can't believe anyone thinks that Wolverine could beat Superman... Seriously, all Superman does is holds Wolverine's hands apart, and he's screwed. Plus his ligaments can't be made of Adamantium so they can be ripped apart by someone of Superman's strength.
Wolverine's tough, but I wouldn't put him on remotely the same level as Superman.

Argent
2006-05-16, 12:08 PM
"Did he ever get it back after Magneto ripped it out? If so, how?"

Ultimately...
Apocalypse set up a battle between Sabretooth and Wolverine to determine who would be his Horseman of Death. *When Wolverine won, Apocalypse stripped the traces of adamantium from Sabretooth (something he obtained while working for X-Factor) and bonded it to Wolverine's skeleton.

I hadn't realized Sabretooth had adamantium in his makeup also -- was that ever referenced prior to this incident, or was it just a retcon/convenient excuse to have adamantium around somewhere to give back to Wolverine?

(And my two cents' worth -- I loved that run where Wolverine was feral and without adamantium. Well-handled and I wish they'd never given him the adamantium back. Just goes to show you nothing ever really changes in comic book continuity.)

Beleriphon
2006-05-16, 12:13 PM
Of course there have been so many incarnations of superman in so many mediums that it's pretty much impossible to say which is considered 'canon'


Current DC continuity is trying to resolve the left overs from the Crisis on Infinite Earths. Superman's powers are being reigned, or at least limited. He has ulimited potential, but his power level is based on how much solar radiation he can absorb. Thus he could become infinitely powerful if he spent from now until the end of the universe at the core of a yellow star.

Otherwise Superman has invulnerability force field (the millimetre thick energy field around his body, thus why his suit never seems to sustain damage) that makes him effectivly invulnerable to any mortal or mundane source of damage. A nuclear explosion would drain him to the point of near death, only because it is so powerful. If sufficient damage is dealt to Supes he could die, I question whether or not Wolverine with the adamantium claws could do that. I just don't think that he can actually attack force fields, or do damage to them.

lunar
2006-05-16, 12:30 PM
If Superman fought Wolverine the writers would make it so that Wolverine's claws could cut through Superman, just to make it interesting. But Superman would still win.

KayJay
2006-05-16, 05:14 PM
I hadn't realized Sabretooth had adamantium in his makeup also -- was that ever referenced prior to this incident, or was it just a retcon/convenient excuse to have adamantium around somewhere to give back to Wolverine?

(And my two cents' worth -- I loved that run where Wolverine was feral and without adamantium. Well-handled and I wish they'd never given him the adamantium back. Just goes to show you nothing ever really changes in comic book continuity.)

I've always known that Sabretooth's claws were made of adamantium... Never really cared to know if the rest of him was, but I would assume so, as he was from the weapon X program, and also had very similar abilities to Wovlerine.

Durin
2006-05-16, 05:31 PM
I never heard Sabretooths claws are adamantium and I don't care either Wolverine is cooler than super man thusly through my own Bias Wolverine wins

Rex_Hondo
2006-05-17, 05:00 AM
Actually, I'm pretty sure Sabretooth's adamantium came from a relatively recent stint with Weapon-X, since Wolverine put a bone claw right through his skull around the time of the Onslaught story arc or so...

HabbakukUnknown
2006-05-17, 09:25 AM
as someone said, if Wolverine's claws were already in his body, then they would be pretty sharp, as bone when its sharpened insanely sharp leading to weapons being made of bone. However, i don't think even with adamantium claws it would do much damage against Superman. On the other hand, if he did manage to injure him and penetrate the skin and cause him to bleed then i think superman may well be shocked into inaction by the blood streaming from his body

KayJay
2006-05-17, 09:51 AM
Because Superman's never bled before, and freezes any time he's forced to bleed ::)