Runic Warrior [PEACH]

[Ralasha]

Please note: Before you comment, PEACH stands for comment, not critisize, if you have nothing of any real inherent value to add, please say nothing. I do not make these for people to find ways to insult me.

A 3.x Resource

The Runic Warrior

Background:
The Ru, also known as the Vikings, the Norsemen, or the Northmen were said to have a very powerful form of magic, known as Runes. Legend says that these runes could be used for many things, but their primary purpose was to ward against harm. Much of the time these runes would be used in a form of prayer, placed upon a house, or a stone used in the houses construction, or a stone in the middle of a field. This class represents the warriors that scribed their weapons and armors with runes. The runes this class uses are not directly magical in nature, but their presence is. Think of them as a form of Paladin, serving the cause against those mages that have gone against the well being of others, or whom have gone mad with their own power. These warriors come from the north, always. In a Real World setting they come from the series of islands to the north of Scandanavia, where the Ru originated.

Alignment: Any neutral. A Runic Warrior serves to protect against the forces that seek to throw the world from balance, be they good, evil, chaotic or lawful.

The Runic Warrior
{table]Level | BAB | FS | RS | WS | Special
1st | +1 | +2 | +2 | +2 | Runic Blade, Runic Imperium
2nd | +2 | +3 | +3 | +3 | Uncanny Dodge,
3rd | +3 | +3 | +3 | +3 | Bonus Feat, Runic Lore +1
4th | +4 | +4 | +4 | +4 | Improved Uncanny Dodge
5th | +5 | +4 | +4 | +4 | Runic Armor
6th | +6/+1 | +5 | +5 | +5 | Bonus Feat
7th | +7/+2 | +5 | +5 | +5 | Runic Lore +2
8th | +8/+3 | +6 | +6 | +6 | Superior Uncanny Dodge
9th | +9/+4 | +6 | +6 | +6 | Bonus Feat
10th | +10/+5 | +7 | +7 | +7 | Improved Runic Blade
11th | +11/+6/+1 | +7 | +7 | +7 | Runic Lore +3
12th | +12/+7/+2 |+8 |+8 |+8 | Bonus Feat
13th | +13/+8/+3 |+8 |+8 |+8 |
14th | +14/+9/+4 |+9 |+9 |+9 |Improved Runic Armor
15th | +15/+10/+5 |+9 |+9 |+9 | Runic Lore +4
16th | +16/+11/+6/+1 |+10 |+10 |+10 | Bonus Feat
17th | +17/+12/+7/+2 |+11 |+11 |+11 |
18th | +18/+13/+8/+3 |+11 |+11 |+11 | Bonus Feat
19th | +19/+14/+9/+4 |+12 |+12 |+12 | Runic Lore +5
20th | +20/+15/+10/+5 |+12 |+12 |+12 | Runic Perfection
[/table]

Hit Dice: d10

Class Skills:
A Runic Warrior’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Craft: Runes (Wis), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Religion) Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skill Points at first level (4 + Int Modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Level after first: 4 + Int modifier.[/b]

Class Features:
Armor and Weapon Proficiencies: The Runic Warrior is proficient with all armors, and swords as well as bucklers, and light shields.

Bonus Feats: The Runic warrior may select their bonus feats from any list except for the metamagic, and item creation feat lists. They must still meet the prerequisites for any feat they wish to take.

Rune Wards: The runic warrior is treated as having a caster level equal to its class level for purposes of class abilities, and for interacting with rune magic from any other source. Runic warriors do not suffer arcane spell failure.
Runic Imperium: The runic warrior has full and complete knowledge of runic magic, the runic warrior may recreate any spell using rune magic that a caster of its level is normally able to cast.. Magic may only be recreated at minimum caster level for the spell. The cost is equal to the cost for creating a scroll, minus the experience penalty, this may be done for any spell level up to 5th. Experience penalties still apply normally when using this ability for item creation. Creation of a Rune effect takes 1 round per spell level. Armor and weapon creation using this method do not require anything beyond normal masterwork to be enchanted. Thus a runic warrior making their masterwork sword flaming would have a flaming masterwork longsword, rather than a +1 Flaming longsword.
Runic Blade: Starting at first level the runic warriors sword may be scribed with runes, this requires a specific Craft: Rune check (DC 15+Character level). Success means that the character may make a dispel magic attempt against any magic that would effect it, equal to its current caster level as though casting the appropriate counter spell. This ability requires it to have a rune scribed sword equipped. At fifth level, by paying half of the cost, not including experience, which is payed normally. The runic warrior may use rune magic to make inscriptions upon its sword, which mimic other enchantments. These enchantments cannot be dispelled as they do not count as magical. They are still effected by things such as an anti-magic field.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a runic warrior gains the ability to react to danger before its senses would normally allow it to do so. It retains its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if it is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, it still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a runic warrior already has uncanny dodge from a different class ( from two levels of barbarian for example), it automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.
Runic Lore:The runic warrior's control of the runes, and insight into their creation gives it bonuses to Decipher Script, Craft Rune, Spellcraft, and Saves toward runes, and saves versus runes. This bonus begins Advances according to the table above.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level and higher, it can no longer be flanked; it can react to opponents on opposite sides of it as easily as he can react to a single attacker. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack it by flanking, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has runic warrior levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.
Runic Armor: At fifth level the Runic Warrior may inscribe its armor with runes, these runes grant the character one of two possible benefits at this level. The Runic Warrior may at any time, by spending half of the cost for magical item creation, bestow magical enchantments upon its armor, not including experience, which is payed normally. These enchantments function only for the Runic Warrior, and do not count as magic for purposes of dispelling. Though they are still effected by things such as wild magic zones, and anti-magic fields.
Damage Reduction: when this runic prayer is inscribed upon the armor and the character continues to wear it, it gains DR/- equal to its class level.
Energy Resistance: When this runic prayer is inscribed upon the characters armor it grants the runic warrior Energy Resistance versus all types of energy damage equal to its class level. This energy resistance counts towards all forms of damage separately. Thus a 5th level runic warrior with this upon its armor has Energy Resistance 5/all, and if it were subject to a spell dealing 5 of each negative sonic, electricity, cold, fire, acid and positive, it would ignore all incoming energy damage.
Superior Uncanny Dodge: Not only can the character not be flanked, or caught flat footed, the character can no longer be surprised. In addition it gains a dodge bonus to AC equal to the number of opponents threatening it.
Improved Runic Blade: beginning at level 10 the runic warrior may attempt to store, or turn a spell using its sword. This is done with a standard caster level check, versus the other’s caster level check, as though done with the appropriate counter-spell. Success by more than 5 means that the spell is either stored in the sword to be released on the runic warriors turn, or has rebound on the caster. This ability effects all magic, including spells such as fireball, and may be used to dispel effects such as a prismatic wall, or a wall of force. Any stored spell must be used before another can be stored. Any spell is a temporary enchantment upon the sword until discharged as either a ranged touch spell or discharged with a melee strike. The stored spell is cast as the original caster level, but effects only one target.
Improved Runic Armor: Beginning at level 15 the runic warrior’s armor may now also provide the second ability of runic armor. This means the runic warrior now benefits from both.
Runic Perfection: At 20th level the runic warrior may steal beneficial spell effects from anyone they strike in melee. In addition their rune crafting takes only one round, regardless of spell level. In addition, they may choose not to suffer the experience cost of magical item creation. Though in this case they must pay double the material costs.


Multiclassing: This character may freely enter or leave any Rune based Base, or Prestige Class, so long as it meets the requirements for skills and feats.

New Weapon:
Exotic Weapon | Cost:| Damage | Critical | Reach/Range | Weight | Damage Type
Rune Sword | 80gp | S:2d6; M:3d4 | 19-20x2 | - | 7 lbs | S/P/B (This sword is made to strike with blade, point, or broadside.)

New Armor:
Exotic Armor: Medium | Cost | Armor/Shield Bonus | Maximum Dex Bonus | Armor Check Penalty | Arcane Spell Failure | Speed | Weight
Marmalar | 2800 gp | +8 | +4 | -4 | 25% | 30ft / 20ft | 35 lbs

Marmalar armor is made of a mixture of chain, plate, and leather to provide the maximum of protection with the minimum of weight and hindrance. It allows for flexibility, and mobility but still covers all the vital areas. Those most at risk are most heavily armored, those least at risk are covered with leather. Those areas which may be hit are covered in chain. Unlike most forms of armor akin to this however, this suit of armor is made specifically to work in this way. Thus it does not accrue the penalties normally associated with piecemeal armor.

[Temotei]

What feats can they choose from for bonus feats?

It would be easier to read this if you made all the ability names bold.

Also, PEACH is for critiquing, not commenting. Not too much of a difference in this case, but there can be a fairly large difference.

[Ralasha]

Well, as they do not actually cast spells... not metamagic, and as they have the innate ability to scribe runes to mimic enhancements and enchantments not item creation. Probably anything, including fighter feats.

[Tavar]

Pointing out where a class fails to met it's goals is both a comment, and a critique. Also, saying the class is flawed does not mean that you are flawed, nor does it mean that you are a horrible person. Even some of the best Homebrewers on this site make mistakes, and show flawed products. People then pointed out said flaws. This was not a personal attack on them, and should not be treated as such.


Discussion of the class;
Marmalar should be labled as either Light, Medium, or Heavy armor.

Superior Uncanny dodge; Does this mean he gets to act in the surprise round? Best be clear.

Runic Armor-What kind of DR is it? And how does the Universal Energy resistance work? Does it actually work verses all energy damage, or only against the standard Fire/Cold/Electric/Acid? Does it count as separate pools for each element, or one combined pool?

[Ralasha]

Pointing out where a class fails to met it's goals is both a comment, and a critique. Also, saying the class is flawed does not mean that you are flawed, nor does it mean that you are a horrible person. Even some of the best Homebrewers on this site make mistakes, and show flawed products. People then pointed out said flaws. This was not a personal attack on them, and should not be treated as such.
I did not mean it in that fashion.


Discussion of the class;
Marmalar should be labled as either Light, Medium, or Heavy armor.
Medium.


Superior Uncanny dodge; Does this mean he gets to act in the surprise round? Best be clear. Yes, that is what it means.


Runic Armor-What kind of DR is it? And how does the Universal Energy resistance work? Does it actually work verses all energy damage, or only against the standard Fire/Cold/Electric/Acid? Does it count as separate pools for each element, or one combined pool?
It is standard damage reduction, and yes universal energy resistance means universal energy resistance, if it is energy damage, it is reduced, similarly, if it is damage, it is reduced. As normal universal energy resistance goes, if it reduces energy damage by 5, then someone casts a spell that does 3 negative and 3 fire, it deals no damage. So, individual pools.

[Temotei]

Universal energy resistance can be found on rings in the epic rules. Essentially, it's just energy resistance against fire, cold, acid, electricity, and sonic.

[Ralasha]

This version is a bit better than that, I will correct the corresponding description to clarify this.
Thank you both very much, you have actually been helpful. Unfortunately, In my previous threads, I have only received (Generally) Insults, vague uninformative ideas, and negative criticism, rather than advice or ideas on how to clarify or rectify errors. Thank you very much.

[Apalala]

So, if I understand this class right, its a martial class that is good at crafting magic weapons and armor, has a full BAB and three good saves, can cast dispel magic at will, gets some goodies like DR equal to its class level, and has the uncanny dodge line, with some bonus feats thrown in for good measure.

Runic Imperium seems a little vague. Does it mean that with a pouch full of gold, the Runic Warrior can cast any spell the situation might call for? Or that it can only recreate the spells for the purpose of magic item creation? Something else?

Hum. It seems a little unfocused. For one, there are seven dead levels.

[Temotei]

So, if I understand this class right, its a martial class that is good at crafting magic weapons and armor, has a full BAB and three good saves, can cast dispel magic at will, gets some goodies like DR equal to its class level, and has the uncanny dodge line, with some bonus feats thrown in for good measure.

Runic Imperium seems a little vague. Does it mean that with a pouch full of gold, the Runic Warrior can cast any spell the situation might call for? Or that it can only recreate the spells for the purpose of magic item creation? Something else?

Hum. It seems a little unfocused. For one, there are seven dead levels.

From what I understand, you can cast any spell a spellcaster of your level would be able to, except you pay gold (as much as a scroll would cost) and you get the minimum caster level. It's also limited to 5th-level or lower spells.

The sad thing is that it's still extremely powerful.

[Ralasha]

Dead levels are not necessarily a bad thing, for instance, If I made a class that gained stats every level, even if that was its only ability, depending how much it gained, those dead levels wouldn't really matter, besides, it doesn't really have dead levels, since it is always gaining something.

It is intended to be extremely powerful. It is an attempt at making a martial class that is capable of standing up against spellcasters, without being one. I need to update its limitations however Say it cannot take any levels in an actual caster class without loosing its runic sword and armor abilities.

It's spell casting is also limited until level 20, when it is finally able to cast said spells without one turn per spell level. Meaning at 5th level it could cast a third level wizard/sorcerer spell, but it would take 3 rounds.

[Temotei]

Dead levels are not necessarily a bad thing, for instance, If I made a class that gained stats every level, even if that was its only ability, depending how much it gained, those dead levels wouldn't really matter, besides, it doesn't really have dead levels, since it is always gaining something.

These dead levels aren't good though. That's the point he/she was trying to make. Essentially, you get +1 BAB and maybe a save bonus on those dead levels. Not exactly exciting, although it's forgivable at 7th level since you're getting another level of spells.


It is intended to be extremely powerful. It is an attempt at making a martial class that is capable of standing up against spellcasters, without being one. I need to update its limitations however Say it cannot take any levels in an actual caster class without loosing its runic sword and armor abilities.

I'm thinking more unique effects would be more fun and take away the magic feel. Just saying "they're runes, so they're not spells" isn't doing much in getting away from the spellcaster feel.

More fluff would help, as would creating unique effects instead of just saying "you get spells like a caster."

[Ralasha]

You are also getting extra energy resistance/damage reduction on those levels.
Though I could shift the abilities to lie on levels where you don't gain any spell levels.

One thing I have never understood is why people seem to think that every level must have some form of a class based benefit, with a prestige class, I can understand that, though this is not one of those, and I might point out that most base classes have many more dead levels than this.

I'm thinking more unique effects would be more fun and take away the magic feel. Just saying "they're runes, so they're not spells" isn't doing much in getting away from the spellcaster feel.

More fluff would help, as would creating unique effects instead of just saying "you get spells like a caster."

That is what I refer to as vague. Unless you have some solid potential idea.

[Temotei]

Here's an idea:

Runic Lore: The runic warrior is a capable combatant, but not everything can be bypassed by the swing of a sword. At 3rd level, the runic warrior gains a +1 bonus to Craft (runes), Decipher Script, and Knowledge checks when dealing with runes and a +1 bonus to saves against rune spells and effects, such as explosive runes. This bonus rises at 7th level and every four levels after (11th, 15th, 19th), granting a +5 bonus at 19th level.

The idea behind having class features filling levels is that the player won't feel very happy with leveling up if all they get is hit points, skill points, and a BAB increase. A class feature, if put in only for flavor, is interesting and more fun to get than a flat bonus. That's the whole goal of gaming, after all--to have fun.

[Ralasha]

Yes... because a +5 bonus is worth anything at level 19. You could easily get a bonus greater than that from other sources. And not a useless one that works only against rune magic. I'll add it to dead levels.

[StoryKeeper]

First of all, cool idea. It's been a while since I worked with 3.5 stuff, so I apologize in advance for stupid comments.

*Bonus Feat Lists: If I found a class or prestige class that gave me access to more obscure bonus feats or something, could I claim feats from one of those lists, or am I basically stuck with the fighter-type feats?

*Runic Imperium: This one confuses me a bit, but I think I sort of get it. Basically you can use any spell out there (similar to an archivist) so long as someone could cast it at your level? Few questions about it:
- Do you not pay experience costs for spells? For instance, could I use this class to get unlimited wish spells at no experience cost?
-Do you count only your class levels for determining whether you can cast spells, or your character level?
-You say "creating" a rune effect. I assume you mean "it takes a round/spell level to cast a spell" rather than implying that you create something you can carry around or something (probably an obvious question.)

Overall, I like the potential of this. Basically, you're very versatile, but it takes you more time to make your magic viking symbols and cast the spell, right? A quick issue that you might not have considered is using this class to cast spells as an archivist. An archivist can get more powerful spells by taking them from certain classes. For instance, taking a spell from a ranger list that is a "1st level" spell for a ranger, but a 4th or what have you level spell for a druid. I could see someone making that argument to get stronger stuff than usual.

Also, if I'm reading it right and you do ignore XP costs when casting spells, you could get away with some pretty powerful stuff for cheap, such as the wish spell I mentioned. Basically, if you get your hands on enough gold, you're a one-man arsenal. Especially if you wish for lots of gold or something.

Runic Blade: so this ability actually gets harder to use as you go up in level? Is that to encourage people to invest skill points in the rune thing? Also, couldn't one theoretically dip into this class for one level and immediately be able to dispel magic?

Runic Armor: just going to say from experience that DM'ing a player that has constant, high Damage Reduction is very annoying if you like swarms. I can't exactly throw a goblin horde at this guy because no one will be able to hit him once he gets high enough level, at least not without giving them bigger guns of some sort.

Superior Uncanny Dodge: so he gets better at dodging the more his attention is split on dodging/blocking multiple enemies? He's less effective defensively once he's in a one on one fight? This ability has some cool kung-fu movie possibilities like being able to fight through an entire army unscathed or dodging a volley of arrows aimed at you. On the other hand, it has some counter-intuitive stuff to it like the defenses that become less effective.

This also has the possibility of making the character annoyingly hard to hit for a DM that likes lots of enemies. If I used the goblin swarm I mentioned earlier against this guy, I might as well forget about using standard methods of harming him between such a high AC and the Damage Reduction he'll have. They'd have a better chance against him with a single goblin and a catapult.

Runic Perfection: an interesting way to go. Depending on how free the DM is with gold, this could be broken. You could theoretically be making wish-giving candles just by burning some gold.

Like I said, I think it's a really cool idea, and it looks like the sort of thing I'd like to play. There's just a couple things I either am not reading right, don't understand or that actually need a bit of tweaking. :)

[Ralasha]

First of all, cool idea. It's been a while since I worked with 3.5 stuff, so I apologize in advance for stupid comments.

*Bonus Feat Lists: If I found a class or prestige class that gave me access to more obscure bonus feats or something, could I claim feats from one of those lists, or am I basically stuck with the fighter-type feats?
Only if you meet the prerequisites.


*Runic Imperium: This one confuses me a bit, but I think I sort of get it. Basically you can use any spell out there (similar to an archivist) so long as someone could cast it at your level? Few questions about it:
- Do you not pay experience costs for spells? For instance, could I use this class to get unlimited wish spells at no experience cost?
No, you can't cast spells above 5th level.

-Do you count only your class levels for determining whether you can cast spells, or your character level?
Class Level.

-You say "creating" a rune effect. I assume you mean "it takes a round/spell level to cast a spell" rather than implying that you create something you can carry around or something (probably an obvious question.) It takes a round/spell level to mimic the spell, you are not actually casting anything, but using the inherent magic of the runes to create the same effect.


Overall, I like the potential of this. Basically, you're very versatile, but it takes you more time to make your magic viking symbols and cast the spell, right? A quick issue that you might not have considered is using this class to cast spells as an archivist. An archivist can get more powerful spells by taking them from certain classes. For instance, taking a spell from a ranger list that is a "1st level" spell for a ranger, but a 4th or what have you level spell for a druid. I could see someone making that argument to get stronger stuff than usual. Only problem is you'd have to be the same level as the Ranger to create said rune magic. Meaning whatever level the ranger has to be to cast it, you must be to mimic it.


Also, if I'm reading it right and you do ignore XP costs when casting spells, you could get away with some pretty powerful stuff for cheap, such as the wish spell I mentioned. Basically, if you get your hands on enough gold, you're a one-man arsenal. Especially if you wish for lots of gold or something. No exp means spells cost double. Also, only spells up to level 5. As mentioned before, and in the class description.


Runic Blade: so this ability actually gets harder to use as you go up in level? Is that to encourage people to invest skill points in the rune thing? Also, couldn't one theoretically dip into this class for one level and immediately be able to dispel magic? As a level 1 caster. If you think that would be easy.


Runic Armor: just going to say from experience that DM'ing a player that has constant, high Damage Reduction is very annoying if you like swarms. I can't exactly throw a goblin horde at this guy because no one will be able to hit him once he gets high enough level, at least not without giving them bigger guns of some sort. Where as with a fighter, killing it is easy, and a barbarians damage reduction is for crap.


Superior Uncanny Dodge: so he gets better at dodging the more his attention is split on dodging/blocking multiple enemies? He's less effective defensively once he's in a one on one fight? This ability has some cool kung-fu movie possibilities like being able to fight through an entire army unscathed or dodging a volley of arrows aimed at you. On the other hand, it has some counter-intuitive stuff to it like the defenses that become less effective. It is not intended to be a one man army, and the more people threatening you, the more of a rush you feel... never been in a fight? I and several people I know have all noticed, the more danger, the slower things seem to move around us.


This also has the possibility of making the character annoyingly hard to hit for a DM that likes lots of enemies. If I used the goblin swarm I mentioned earlier against this guy, I might as well forget about using standard methods of harming him between such a high AC and the Damage Reduction he'll have. They'd have a better chance against him with a single goblin and a catapult. As opposed to a character easy to kill with hoards, because it is effectively neutralized by swarms.


Runic Perfection: an interesting way to go. Depending on how free the DM is with gold, this could be broken. You could theoretically be making wish-giving candles just by burning some gold. Irrelevant, see above.


Like I said, I think it's a really cool idea, and it looks like the sort of thing I'd like to play. There's just a couple things I either am not reading right, don't understand or that actually need a bit of tweaking. :)
The first two 'aren't reading right, or don't understand.'

[StoryKeeper]

Thanks for the quick response!

Runic Imperium:
About the whole unlimited wish thing, ahh, I even read that part and somehow managed to forget it by the time I read through the class. *facepalm* Regarding the Archivist thing though, as written, I think a player could still make a case for using those better-than-usual spells for the same reason an Archivist can. The archivist gets the spells early because they're "1st-level" spells. A Runic Warrior would just have to say "I'm not casting it as a Ranger; I'm casting it as an archivist casting a ranger spell."

Superior Uncanny Dodge:
Haven't really been in much of a fight, granted, but the whole thing about the world slowing down is caused by adrenaline, and is not inherently tied to the number of people you're fighting. Sure, having a bunch of guys gang up on you might be scarier than a single guy, but which would you be better at dodging? A single arrow, or an entire volley? Alternatively, do you get better at defending against a full phalanx of spearmen or do you have a better shot of avoiding a single spear? The more your attention is split, the harder it is to react to every attack. I'm tempted to say leave it as is just for those epic 100 goblins VS 1 PC moments, but like I said, it could get annoying at spots.

Also, if he ticks off his fellow party member enough, does he gain additional bonuses to AC? :)

[Ralasha]

Thanks for the quick response!

Runic Imperium:
About the whole unlimited wish thing, ahh, I even read that part and somehow managed to forget it by the time I read through the class. *facepalm* Regarding the Archivist thing though, as written, I think a player could still make a case for using those better-than-usual spells for the same reason an Archivist can. The archivist gets the spells early because they're "1st-level" spells. A Runic Warrior would just have to say "I'm not casting it as a Ranger; I'm casting it as an archivist casting a ranger spell." A ranger spell.


Superior Uncanny Dodge:
Haven't really been in much of a fight, granted, but the whole thing about the world slowing down is caused by adrenaline, and is not inherently tied to the number of people you're fighting. Sure, having a bunch of guys gang up on you might be scarier than a single guy, but which would you be better at dodging? A single arrow, or an entire volley? Alternatively, do you get better at defending against a full phalanx of spearmen or do you have a better shot of avoiding a single spear? The more your attention is split, the harder it is to react to every attack. I'm tempted to say leave it as is just for those epic 100 goblins VS 1 PC moments, but like I said, it could get annoying at spots. The idea is the more people attacking you the more likely you are to be hit, this is an attempt to equalize the equation and keep the chances the same. Also, 100 goblins cannot all threaten the character simultaneously. On a sqaure base battlefield the max bonus is 9 unless there are enemies behind them using reach weapons. a Ranged weapon does not count as a threat for flanking, nor for this bonus.


Also, if he ticks off his fellow party member enough, does he gain additional bonuses to AC? :)are they attacking him?

The other problem is, when multiple people are attacking you, in reality they have to be more careful not to hit each other. So you will still have a slight advantage over fighting fewer.

[StoryKeeper]

Ah, that's one of those things I've forgotten after not having done 3.5 stuff for too long. I didn't realize that ranged weapons didn't count as "threatening" the character. I see where you're going with that bonus then, though I'm not sure that you have it balanced quite right for what you're trying to do. Playtesting will tell once someone uses it.

I still have to disagree about the mutliple people attacking you giving you an advantage thing though. As you said before, the more people attacking you, the more likely you are to be hit. Using my phalanx example, 3 guys in an organized formation stabbing at me aren't really going to get in each others' way to the point of making it harder to hit me. If anything, my own defenses will be hindered as my brain struggles to keep up with which weapon to focus on countering moment by moment.

[Ralasha]

Let me put it this way, there are 8 people wielding sword surrounding you. They don't have to be careful... oh no... they can just hack and slash with no regard for the others around them. If their sword passes through their buddy, hey, it's ok, it's not like it will hurt.

[Hyooz]

Let me put it this way, there are 8 people wielding sword surrounding you. They don't have to be careful... oh no... they can just hack and slash with no regard for the others around them. If their sword passes through their buddy, hey, it's ok, it's not like it will hurt.

Yeah, 8 guys surrounding you definitely gives YOU the advantage instead of them because being careful not to hit their buddy makes it that much harder to hit one guy... oh no, people get ganged up on all the time, and it turns out that the 8 guys have the advantage no matter how much training the guy in the middle has? Crap.

[Ralasha]

Yeah, thats it, counter-logic, Devils Advocate. Lets go back and forth here for a while... or not. I will admit your point is valid. I will also not change the classes ability, regardless, it is a fantasy setting, not reality.

[StoryKeeper]

Well, it's your class, so obviously it's your choice. Just so long as you realize that the Rune Warrior, who is awesome at evading eight guys at once, will have a relatively hard time avoiding that single enemy's attacks.

It has potential for some very cinematic stuff, it's just not all that realistic. Would you consider changing this to being just a flat bonus to AC? Maybe a +1/4 levels or maybe something like letting the Dodge feat apply to all enemies? Oh, I guess that later thing would basically be a flat bonus.

Anyway, it just feels a little weird. You sound like you're starting to get a bit defensive, so let me just remind you that I like what you've made here and am just trying to give you some suggestions to make it even better. :)

Also, as a side note, while I don't do much actual fighting, I do boffer. It's not really the same, but there are similarities, and from experience, a person getting ganged up on usually gets hit faster/more frequently because his guard will be focused on one or two people at a time.

[FlamingKobold]

Yeah, thats it, counter-logic, Devils Advocate. Lets go back and forth here for a while... or not. I will admit your point is valid. I will also not change the classes ability, regardless, it is a fantasy setting, not reality.
I suggest that you try to be more open to suggestions and be less condescending if you actually wish to have help. And if you don't, why did you post it?

So yeah, definitely going to agree that having more people attacking you never gives you the advantage. That's not how it works.

Why only ban metamagic and item creation feats?

Use Temotei's text for Runic Lore. Have the level of increases in the ability itself.

[ForzaFiori]

I suggest that you try to be more open to suggestions and be less condescending if you actually wish to have help. And if you don't, why did you post it?

So yeah, definitely going to agree that having more people attacking you never gives you the advantage. That's not how it works.


This. I HAVE been in fights, and more people does not mean more adrenaline, nor are 8 punches easier to dodge than 1. If you want to give the idea of an "oh-****" bonus, make it scale based on the CR of the encounter. So that when its an even fight, you get an ok bonus. When your really worried (more adrenaline) you get more bonus. When a goblin jumps you, you don't take it seriously, so smaller bonus.

[Ralasha]

This. I HAVE been in fights, and more people does not mean more adrenaline, nor are 8 punches easier to dodge than 1. If you want to give the idea of an "oh-****" bonus, make it scale based on the CR of the encounter. So that when its an even fight, you get an ok bonus. When your really worried (more adrenaline) you get more bonus. When a goblin jumps you, you don't take it seriously, so smaller bonus.

I didn't say that, though thanks for twisting it, I said 8 guys swinging swords at you, all of them being right next to each other are going to have to be more careful not to hit each other. Who the hell said anything about people punchign you?

[Hyooz]

I didn't say that, though thanks for twisting it, I said 8 guys swinging swords at you, all of them being right next to each other are going to have to be more careful not to hit each other. Who the hell said anything about people punchign you?

Lots of people/creatures in DnD are going to be attacking you without necessarily swinging a sword at you. And even then, in DnD land, the square they're standing in is 5ft x 5ft. So even when you're surrounded by 8 guys, they have plenty of room to not have to worry about poking each other.

[Ralasha]

What land? D&D land? So it isn't reality?! OMG, that means it's fine like it is!
>.>

[Thrice Dead Cat]

What land? D&D land? So it isn't reality?! OMG, that means it's fine like it is!
>.>

Well, even in "DND Land," we've got the issue of being surrounded = you are more likely to eat sword. The ability itself is a tad... silly, but, more importantly, it's not terribly effective at what it is intended to do. For the same reasons that whirlwind attack is jank, this is similarly so. Being surrounded by mooks generally means eating a 5% chance per attack from said mooks of getting hit while they delay you an attack action to drop them instead of focusing on the BBEG in the fight. However, at least SUD can provide for some nanobot-esque AC bonuses when combined with Summon Dead Celestial Monkey, but that does not a good class ability make.

Honestly, I feel it would be better as a straight static dodge bonus or simply reworked from the current wording.


As for the other abilities...

The bonus feats are odd in that they could theoretically allow you to grab any feat that lacks the [item creation] and/or [metamagic] tag, which seems counter to the intent. It would probably be better to say it allows for [Fighter] feats, plus feat X, Y, and Z.

Runic Imperium is odd and probably needs some rewording. It seems to imply that you can craft scrolls normally, but a Runic Warrior may not necessarily have the feats needed in question. How long these last also needs to be addressed, as the time it takes to create them probably doesn't mean much of anything, as the ability seems to be an out of combat thing.

Same goes for Runic Blade, which should probably use the broader term "weapon" instead of "sword," refer to either specific spells or weapon enhancements, and simply require that the weapon be in the user's possession.

Uncanny Dodge is Uncanny Dodge. Eh.

Runic Lore doesn't do terribly much, other than some minor benefits. You should also mention what counts as a "rune" for this ability. Check out the Illumian race from Races of Destiny for help there.

Runic Armor needs similar rewording to Runic Blade. You also didn't list the cost for the DR and Energy Resistance abilities.

For Improved Runic Blade, I'd look at the spell storing weapon enhancement for some wording issues. Currently, yours is also a little vague on which effect happens. Simply saying that the Runic Warrior declares which should suffice. How long the spell may be stored and what action it takes to release a stored spell should also be mentioned.

I think you mean to say that Improved Runic Armor allows for both the DR and Energy Resistance to be up at the same time, but the wording is ambiguous.

For Runic Perfection, you may want to take a look at the Spellthief for the "steal spell effects" bit. The decreased time to create also seems moot. The ability to switch around the costs is cute, but doesn't do too terribly much.


All and all this feels like a more martially inclined Artificer, but I'm having trouble seeing much that it adds to the table compared to that class. Yeah, yeah, I know about the usual "Anything you can do, I can do better" schtick of the Artificer, but that's not what I mean.

[Ralasha]

Honestly, I feel it would be better as a straight static dodge bonus or simply reworked from the current wording.

As for the other abilities...

The bonus feats are odd in that they could theoretically allow you to grab any feat that lacks the [item creation] and/or [metamagic] tag, which seems counter to the intent. It would probably be better to say it allows for [Fighter] feats, plus feat X, Y, and Z.

Runic Imperium is odd and probably needs some rewording. It seems to imply that you can craft scrolls normally, but a Runic Warrior may not necessarily have the feats needed in question. How long these last also needs to be addressed, as the time it takes to create them probably doesn't mean much of anything, as the ability seems to be an out of combat thing.

Same goes for Runic Blade, which should probably use the broader term "weapon" instead of "sword," refer to either specific spells or weapon enhancements, and simply require that the weapon be in the user's possession.

Uncanny Dodge is Uncanny Dodge. Eh.

Runic Lore doesn't do terribly much, other than some minor benefits. You should also mention what counts as a "rune" for this ability. Check out the Illumian race from Races of Destiny for help there.

Runic Armor needs similar rewording to Runic Blade. You also didn't list the cost for the DR and Energy Resistance abilities.

For Improved Runic Blade, I'd look at the spell storing weapon enhancement for some wording issues. Currently, yours is also a little vague on which effect happens. Simply saying that the Runic Warrior declares which should suffice. How long the spell may be stored and what action it takes to release a stored spell should also be mentioned.

I think you mean to say that Improved Runic Armor allows for both the DR and Energy Resistance to be up at the same time, but the wording is ambiguous.

For Runic Perfection, you may want to take a look at the Spellthief for the "steal spell effects" bit. The decreased time to create also seems moot. The ability to switch around the costs is cute, but doesn't do too terribly much.

Replying: bottom up:
Runic Perfection: Instead of taking 5 rounds to cast a 5th level spell, you take only 1 round. The ability to switch costs allows you to negate the experience penalties for enchanting arms and armor.

Improved Runic Armor will be reworded.

Runic Armor, has no costs.

The effect is stored until used. Simple. I will reword it so that it the runic warrior can declare which it does.

Runic lore is intended as fluff. Any runes are runes. Runic blade says swords, because they are only proficient with swords.

Runic Imperium does not mean that you can craft scrolls, regardless of having the feats required. It means simply that you are capable of mimicking spells, casting them, in other words. They last as long as the spells duration. They can only be cast at the spells lowest caster level.

Bonus Feats: It is indeed intended thus.

A constant dodge bonus would help in single combat, but not as much when being swarmed. the maximum number of threats is 27. Thus if surrounded by reach and melee the maximum number. you'll have a 27 dodge bonus.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Replying: bottom up:
Runic Perfection: Instead of taking 5 rounds to cast a 5th level spell, you take only 1 round. The ability to switch costs allows you to negate the experience penalties for enchanting arms and armor.

I seem to have made a mistake in reading the previous abilities then, as it seems that you create pseudo-scrolls for later use, which would make the relatively small decrease in time moot.


Runic Armor, has no costs.

Okay.


The effect is stored until used. Simple. I will reword it so that it the runic warrior can declare which it does.

Right. Simply stating such does wonders, however. Better to be verbose sometimes than leave out potentially crucial data.


Runic lore is intended as fluff. Any runes are runes. Runic blade says swords, because they are only proficient with swords.

I figured as much on Runic Lore. However, a Runic Warrior could gain proficiency with other weapons via multiclassing or feats, so allowing them to apply their class abilities to such is good.


Runic Imperium does not mean that you can craft scrolls, regardless of having the feats required. It means simply that you are capable of mimicking spells, casting them, in other words. They last as long as the spells duration. They can only be cast at the spells lowest caster level.

I suppose it was the mentioning of "costs" that threw me off on this then. It still seems a little vague to me, however.


Bonus Feats: It is indeed intended thus.

That still seems odd to me. It seems a tad arbitrary to do so, rather than just having it be "Bonus Feat: You gain a feat for which you qualify."


A constant dodge bonus would help in single combat, but not as much when being swarmed. the maximum number of threats is 27. Thus if surrounded by reach and melee the maximum number. you'll have a 27 dodge bonus.

A constant dodge bonus helps independent of number of enemies. It does not matter how many people threaten me. If I have a dodge bonus, it applies equally to all of them. The obvious exception to this is the Dodge feat itself and a few of its derivatives. As for the maximum, there is no theoretically limit to it when considering things like the Swarmfighting feat. Case in point. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870890/Updated_Nanobots_Conquer_D38;D_%28AC,_Attack,_and_ Skill_Records%29)

[Ralasha]

I seem to have made a mistake in reading the previous abilities then, as it seems that you create pseudo-scrolls for later use, which would make the relatively small decrease in time moot.


I figured as much on Runic Lore. However, a Runic Warrior could gain proficiency with other weapons via multiclassing or feats, so allowing them to apply their class abilities to such is good. And those other proficiencies would still not give them the ability to usethat on other weapons, It is intended thus. Runic Warriors abilities only work with a sword, because only a sword has enough area for the scripts required to do such things.


That still seems odd to me. It seems a tad arbitrary to do so, rather than just having it be "Bonus Feat: You gain a feat for which you qualify."[/QOUTE] They may take any feat including fighter feats, but not metamagic, or item creation. This is because there are no rules for handling metamagic when used by one. I suppose you could increase the casting time, which could negate the entire purpose of having Runic Perfection. They have a longer casting time than other classes because they have to draw the runes.

[QUOTE=Thrice Dead Cat;8534434]A constant dodge bonus helps independent of number of enemies. It does not matter how many people threaten me. If I have a dodge bonus, it applies equally to all of them. The obvious exception to this is the Dodge feat itself and a few of its derivatives. As for the maximum, there is no theoretically limit to it when considering things like the Swarmfighting feat. A constant dodge bonus also helps more against oen opponent, because there is less of a chance of being hit. The idea is to balance the issue of the more enemies the more likely you're going to get hit.


Case in point. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870890/Updated_Nanobots_Conquer_D38;D_%28AC,_Attack,_and_ Skill_Records%29)
What DM in their right mind?

Besides, I believe it states in one book or another that a swarm counts as an individual creature.

[StoryKeeper]

Swarms aside, don't forget about tiny and fine creatures. You could get surrounded by quite a few of those, especially if they have reach weapons.

[Ralasha]

And you'd get one hell of a nice AC boost. Effectively countering their size bonuses.

The ultimate in multi-purpose class abilities.

[StoryKeeper]

But now consider getting that bonus with mixed enemies. Getting a +10 to AC while fighting a bunch of pixies and a troll? Yes please.

It works, it just seems kind of funny. It makes up for something that would be a disadvantage (being outnumbered), effectively turning it into a strength. This isn't a bad thing, it's just that the rational for it is "You're in a bad situation, therefore you are now in a good situation."

It's sort of like giving someone +4 strength whenever they're silenced, giving them a huge bonus to escape artist when they're pinned, or similar. Now, it's not bad to give them such advantages, it's just weird when the reason they get those advantages is that they're in a bad situation.

"Alright, fellow monsters and NPC's, now the adventuring party has a character that actually gets better when you put him in disadvantageous situations, so after we take out the rest of the party, we're going to change up our tactics. No paralyzing him, flanking him, or otherwise hindering him. Instead, we are going to offer him a nice meal, a spa treatment, and a coupon to Chucky Cheeze's. That should keep him from getting any buffs, and make him a much easier target as we send our men in one by one (so as to avoid giving him benefits for being outnumbered.)

"Couldn't we just attack him while he's flatfooded at the spa?"

"No, we thought of that, but it turns out he actually gains 20 temporary hit points per character level if he's sneak attacked. It helps make up for the disadvantage of being caught off guard."

And now I am done being cheeky. ;) For now.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

And those other proficiencies would still not give them the ability to usethat on other weapons, It is intended thus. Runic Warriors abilities only work with a sword, because only a sword has enough area for the scripts required to do such things.

Right, but I say that that is not necessarily good design, as it seems to be an arbitrary limitation on the class ability. Your reasoning that "only swords have room" is also jank, as broadaxes could easily match the area needed for the runes. Alternatively, they just write smaller.:smalltongue:


They may take any feat including fighter feats, but not metamagic, or item creation. This is because there are no rules for handling metamagic when used by one. I suppose you could increase the casting time, which could negate the entire purpose of having Runic Perfection. They have a longer casting time than other classes because they have to draw the runes.

You're the one making the class, so you can easily adjudicate the rules for such. After all, nothing is stopping a Runic Warrior from grabbing a metamagic feat as a normal feat.


A constant dodge bonus also helps more against oen opponent, because there is less of a chance of being hit. The idea is to balance the issue of the more enemies the more likely you're going to get hit.

Right, but, often times, when you've got a PC surrounded by dudes, said dudes will likely not have a high enough attack bonus to be a serious threat, least you enter an area where the PCs are intended to lose. As wonky as the CR and EL rules get in practice at higher levels, take a look there for what I'm talking about.


What DM in their right mind?

Besides, I believe it states in one book or another that a swarm counts as an individual creature.

As has already been said, that's no swarm. Also, I like to work from the area of preventing such theoretical rules abuses when designing something.

[Ralasha]

And now I am done being cheeky. ;) For now.

As Achmed says: 'Silence, I kill you!'