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Hamsterboy_14
2006-06-24, 07:41 AM
I am fed up with the constant bickering about could batman beat the amazing spider man. So i set up this thread, all you have to do is post about any of your worst or favourite super heroe or heroine for a comic made by either dc or marvel, but wait there's you also need to say which comic maker is your favourite, dc or marvel, who will win?

I'l start off wolverine is my favorite super heroe and my sent favourite is batman.

Marvel is my favorite.

Beelzebub1111
2006-06-24, 10:01 AM
Okay, this has been done by Marvel and DC before. I have all four comics and the first edition of the subsequent Amalgam series. And I am 100% pissed at the outcome of the fights.

Superman beat the Hulk (the hulk is stronger)
Wolverine beat Lobo (Lobo is cooler)
Batman beat captain america (one I'm still scratching my head about because captain america has a vibranium shield and is Stronger, Faster, and Tougher than batman)

It goes on and on like this, It was done by votes so that might have somehting to do with it. One that I wanted to see was Dr. Strange vs Fate.

Also I like Marvel better

There is also a cardgame about it (I'm building a Thanos/Appocolipse deck)

Tokeloshe
2006-06-24, 12:05 PM
Favourite character BTB: Green Arrow, just for storylines.

Anyway, Marvel wins the fight. At least until Batman gets involved.

Holy_Knight
2006-06-24, 12:57 PM
Okay, this has been done by Marvel and DC before. I have all four comics and the first edition of the subsequent Amalgam series. And I am 100% pissed at the outcome of the fights.

Superman beat the Hulk (the hulk is stronger)
Wolverine beat Lobo (Lobo is cooler)
Batman beat captain america (one I'm still scratching my head about because captain america has a vibranium shield and is Stronger, Faster, and Tougher than batman)


I don't see why you're complaining about these:

Superman vs. Hulk -- Superman should win this. Even if Hulk is stronger (which is debatable), Superman has flight, heat vision, and so forth, which gives him a huge tactical advantage. You'll also recall that he won by using the heat vision.

Wolverine vs. Lobo -- While Lobo should be more powerful, I didn't care that Wolverine won precisely because I think Lobo is such an uncool character.

Batman vs. Captain America -- Admittedly, this is the most controversial fight (which is probably why it was such an indecisive victory), but it's not really a stretch to think that Batman could win this, even if you think Captain America should have an advantage. If nothing else, the battleground favored Batman, since he ended up being able to make use of stealth and surprise.

The one that I thought was bad was when Storm beat Wonder Woman--WW should pretty clearly have taken that one. There may be others like that, but I can't remember them at the moment.

Hoorex
2006-06-24, 01:31 PM
Marvel is the best...

But let's see, my favorite super is probably spider-man, he's just so cool! Then deadpool.

But anyway, I don't really have a favorite DC super because quite frankly I despise both batman and superman....

Beelzebub1111
2006-06-24, 03:56 PM
Superman vs. Hulk -- Superman should win this. *Even if Hulk is stronger (which is debatable), Superman has flight, heat vision, and so forth, which gives him a huge tactical advantage. *You'll also recall that he won by using the heat vision.

Let me put it this way Hulk >= Doomsday > Superman

Also The Electra vs. Catwoman fight was a huge ****fest

Same goes for Aquaman vs Namor, Aquaman cheated...seriously, A killer whale? what was a killer whale doing so close to a peir anyways?

Dawnstrider_Moogle
2006-06-24, 05:32 PM
Marvel wins in a straight up fight, but DC wins with preparation

;D

Saithis Bladewing
2006-06-24, 06:15 PM
Marvel wins in a straight up fight, but DC wins with preparation

;D


Quoted for Truth, and for winning the internet. ;D

Jack Mann
2006-06-24, 09:03 PM
The problem is that DC tends to be a more high-powered world than Marvel. Heroes and villains tend to be more powerful in the DC Universe, where they have to contend with the likes of Superman and Wonder Woman. Marvel has powerful characters, of course, don't get me wrong, but DC has a lot more of them.

Of course, I prefer Marvel because it tends to push the human side of the characters more. But in a pure knock-down brawl, the Marvel heroes would have difficulty fighting the DC heroes.

Beelzebub1111
2006-06-24, 09:45 PM
The problem is that DC tends to be a more high-powered world than Marvel. *Heroes and villains tend to be more powerful in the DC Universe, where they have to contend with the likes of Superman and Wonder Woman. *Marvel has powerful characters, of course, don't get me wrong, but DC has a lot more of them.

Of course, I prefer Marvel because it tends to push the human side of the characters more. *But in a pure knock-down brawl, the Marvel heroes would have difficulty fighting the DC heroes.

Now way! marvel heros have much more high power villains!(And Dr. Strange is just short of being a god) Marvel has Galactus, Thanos (F-ing INFINITY GAUNTLET), Dormammu, Apocolypse, Tyrant, Shuma-Gorath, Mephisto, Nightmare, Blackheart. The list goes on. Name ANY DC villain that is on par with any of those guys.

hyikim
2006-06-24, 09:46 PM
GiantITP beats both!

Beleriphon
2006-06-25, 02:25 AM
Now way! marvel heros have much more high power villains!(And Dr. Strange is just short of being a god) Marvel has Galactus, Thanos (F-ing INFINITY GAUNTLET), Dormammu, Apocolypse, Tyrant, Shuma-Gorath, Mephisto, Nightmare, Blackheart. The list goes on. Name ANY DC villain that is on par with any of those guys.

Sinestro, Darkseid, Doomsday, Satan (yes that one), the whole freaking Thangarian race, the Martians, and Brainaic all spring to mind as being as powerful, or more so, than any of the characters mentioned from Marvel.

Darkseid alone is an Apocalypse/Thanos combo that has fought Superman to his knees. Not a fun guy to fight. At a functional level I'm not familiar to enough with DC to counter Galactus. Then again Galactus isn't really a villain, he's a primal force of creation, and he certainly isn't evil.

At any rate we could argue back and forth ad nauseum about who has more powerful characters. In every instance I'm sure that we can find the equivilent or more powerful character from each publisher.

As for Bats vs Caps, it was controversial because at a pratical level they are the closest to each in skill, at least from main line comics. Caps, at least as I understand the character, has enhanced human abilities. He isn't superhuman, merely the best that human can possibly be. While Batman isn't the best that a human can be, this is arguable since he's certainly in the top 20 in terms of physical conditioning and hand to hand combat, he does have a variety of other abilities and ways of winning a fight that would even the odds. If we take into account that Batman prefers darkness, and urban environs as his preferred hunting grounds, then Caps has a problem. Toe to toe fist fight, Caps wins after a brutal brawl. In a war of attrition played out through the back alleys and slums of Gotham I give this one to Bats since this is how Batman prefers to operate.

Anyhoo, I have no doubt that Lady Shiva would leave Caps as little more than a pile of strawberry jam. Then again I think that any number of Marvel characters could do the same to Lady Shiva, so its a moot point and we end up back to arguing about which publisher has more powerful characters. This all leads to the power creep to grab audiences with more "exciting" stories. My favourite Batman stories are still A Long Halloween and Dark Victory, both good solid detective stories with a minimum of combat.

Beelzebub1111
2006-06-25, 12:00 PM
I'm sorry but thanos is infinately more powerful than darkseid. Allow me to elaborate:

Thanos possesses nearly incalculable superhuman power. The most powerful of the Titanian Eternals, Thanos is an Eternal mutant whose massive thick-hided body grants him the ability to synthesize cosmic energy for his personal use. (This is a trait that Thanos shares with his father, Alars, and the Earth-born Eternals, but not with most Titan-born Eternals.) Through bionic amplification, Thanos has vastly increased his physical strength and resilience. Through meditation, certain mystical techniques, and the aid of Death itself, Thanos has augmented his power in still other ways - enabling him to tap, transform, and direct vast quantities of cosmic energy for destructive force or protective shielding.

Thanos has also demonstrated psionic abilities (e.g. telepathy, astral projection, mental domination). Thanos possesses a very high level of invulnerability, allowing him to take almost any sort of damage without being harmed and be almost completely resistant to reality manipulation and matter transmutation. Death cursed him with immortality, which makes him truly impossible to kill. Thanos possesses a vast array of highly advanced technology, one such example is a compact device (always concealed on him) enabling him to teleport vast distances.

Perhaps deadliest of all of Thanos's attributes is his mind; his superhuman intellect and legendary cunning are dedicated to the annihilation of life and the mastery of any technology or mysticism that will alow him to achieve this goal.

Aside from his great power, Thanos is a superb tactician and is well-versed in many areas of arcane lore. He possesses technology that allows him to time-travel and travel through alternate dimensions. Thanos is also a highly formidable hand-to-hand combatant, having fought the likes of the Galactus-Spawned Tyrant (with the help of one of Tyrant's own power orbs) to a near stand-still, and trained his adopted daughter Gamora to become the universe's most feared female assassin. As powerful as he is, Thanos usually seeks to avoid physical confrontations and prefers outwitting his opponents and working through agents and thralls. Thanos is, and will always remain, a threat to all life and one of the most dangerous beings in the universe.


"I am now omnipotent. What should I do with such almighty power? The answer to that is really quite simple: Anything I want. Anything. I am incapable of error. Any result that displeases me I can simply reverse. There is nothing I need to worry on, for I am Thanos. And Thanos is supreme." -Thanos

Beleriphon
2006-06-25, 01:01 PM
I'm sorry but thanos is infinately more powerful than darkseid. Allow me to elaborate:

"I am now omnipotent. What should I do with such almighty power? The answer to that is really quite simple: Anything I want. Anything. I am incapable of error. Any result that displeases me I can simply reverse. There is nothing I need to worry on, for I am Thanos. And Thanos is supreme." -Thanos


You know that sounds suprising like Darkseid. I mean the guy is only controls multi solar system star empire, he has crushed civilizations and by all accounts is immortal. Thanos is Darkseid , and Darkseid is Thanos. They are DC's and Marvel's answer the all powerful supervillain respectively. To quote Wikipedia on Darkseid:

Quoth the Wiki:


Darkseid is formidable to the point of omnipotence, capable of doing almost anything with his vast powers and can replicate any effect he can imagine. The only limit on Darkseid's abilities is their relativity to his will power. For example, he is capable of moving entire solar systems by force of will alone, but whilst doing so he would not have the focus to perform many other acts. All of Darkseid's capabilities stem from his omnipotence.


The Wikipedia article about Darkseid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkseid) goes on further to discuss how he can create life and matter from nothing. At a general form and function Thanos and Darkseid are designed to do the same thing for two different comic book line ups. Each one is basically omnipotent and possess vast powers beyond any other character in their respective universes. If we really wanted them to fight I can't even imagine what the result would be be. Ruined galaxies left in their wake is at least a start.

I'm pretty sure that one of them was created as that publisher's answre to the other. At this point based on publishing dates the first of the two is Darkseid in 1970 and Thanos in 1973. So it looks like Marvel created Thanos in an attempt to give its universe a Darkseid.

Caillach
2006-06-26, 01:36 AM
Well we've already had this thread (kinnda) and I'm far too lazy to re-write my arguments agian so I'm going to copy them from the last one.

I like DC.( yes, even though My favorite hero is Magneto from Marvel. )
I like DC for it's wonderfull writeing. Some people say Marvel is more real, but for me Marvel, though stil great, really ends up soooo soap opera.

I will state my case with the Superman Comic. (superman is my fav. from DC)

superman: Just a beautiful, well thought out peice: A super being arriveing from space, escaping his planet that was doomed by his own peoples Obsession with perfection and control. He doesn't, however, become a complete orphan. He embraces his new world as it embraces him (showing us that it doesn't matter what you are or where your from, what matters is that you love and accept where you are, and who you are now.*awww* A lovely thought.)
The fact that he can be destroyed/weakened only by his original home (Kryptonite, from Krypton) seems, in some way, very poetic to me. He is balanced by the very thing that made him great on earth: his own planet.

case2 Lex Luther: A great villain. He shows smarts, he shows that superpowers aren't the end all be all.
The embodiment of greed, jealousy, unjust anger, Luther reminds us of our human flaws, because he really is just that: Pure Human. Totally Mortal.
Maybe that's why he's such a popular villain. He's the little bit in all of us that just loathes those that are "higher" than us, the rebel that's gonna bring that little smartass down. And the fact that he, a complete mortal, is superman’s biggest threat means a lot more to me than if he were just some pumped up villain on steroids. Again, just beautiful well crafted ideas.

Case3 Lois Lane: Probably one the strongest Female character's out there. She doesn't need superpowers to kick some ass. She's a bloody super-mortal! The one Clark Kent see's as his equal, the only person who can intimidate The Superman! She doesn't really get caught up in that "wallow in self pity crap" as some female characters with superpowers do (I have to point out that even though I love X-men, that's my real beef with them. Some of those super heroines…jeeze. *shakes head* fricken get over it already! You've got bloody superpowers, I don't want your angst!)
However at the same time she's totally still a woman: She loves, she wins and fails. She feels, there is so much more to her than just "the damsel in distress". She's a Shaman that hasn't quite figured everything out for herself. If that's not real I don't know what is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
as for the Hulk beating Superman: No fricken way. The Hulk get's really dumb when he goes green so he'd probably never beable to use Kryptonite, unless he had a little helper to place it directly in his hand and show him (with diagrams) how to throw in at Superman. Not to mention Supe. can fly, and the Hulk can't. He could just fly out of the Hulks reach then lazer beam Mr.Green.

(p.s sweet avatar Hamsterboy!)

Beleriphon
2006-06-26, 01:54 AM
Case3 Lois Lane: Probably one the strongest Female character's out there. She doesn't need superpowers to kick some ass. She's a bloody super-mortal! The one Clark Kent see's as his equal, the only person who can intimidate The Superman! She doesn't really get caught up in that "wallow in self pity crap" as some female characters with superpowers do (I have to point out that even though I love X-men, that's my real beef with them. Some of those super heroines…jeeze. *shakes head* fricken get over it already! You've got bloody superpowers, I don't want your angst!)
However at the same time she's totally still a woman: She loves, she wins and fails. She feels, there is so much more to her than just "the damsel in distress". She's a Shaman that hasn't quite figured everything out for herself. If that's not real I don't know what is.


I like Lois, but why is she as dumb as a sack of hammers when it comes to Superman? I mean really how does Lois an investigative reporter not get that Superman and Clark Kent are the same guy?

AmoDman
2006-06-26, 05:13 AM
DC, I think, has the "classic" characters (Batman, Superman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, etc.), but while some of them are interesting/cool, others are just cut and dry boring to me. In the end, Marvel (especially with the X-men, for one) always seems to have the more interesting and variety of characters to me. So I'd personally have to go with Marvel, but it's a good thing we're not choosing one or the other here, because I don't know what I'd do w/o my "classic" superheroes ;).

p.s. I hate WW, so I'd almost wish anybody could bear her, heh. But as far as Captain America goes, I think he's pretty much a **** too, and not that interesting of a character. Batman has my full support of handing his ass to him ;).

TheSilverKnight
2006-06-26, 06:19 AM
Marvel over DC but I like them both in fact DC helped Stan Lee start Marvel sooo.

Favorite Hero/Villan Gambit(he was both), Psilock, Night Rider, Cinister

On the DC side my favorite is the Flash, Steel, Raven Aries

I could put a huge list for both sides who tie fro second's

And actually Cap vs Bats is a completly even battle Batman trumphing in the night and Cap during the day as they are both at their best in crowded city settings.

I would like to see a Flash vs. Quicksilver battel that would be cool.

AmoDman
2006-06-26, 06:35 AM
Marvel over DC but I like them both in fact DC helped Stan Lee start Marvel sooo.

Favorite Hero/Villan Gambit(he was both), Psilock, Night Rider, Cinister

On the DC side my favorite is the Flash, Steel, Raven Aries

I could put a huge list for both sides who tie fro second's

And actually Cap vs Bats is a completly even battle Batman trumphing in the night and Cap during the day as they are both at their best in crowded city settings.

I would like to see a Flash vs. Quicksilver battel that would be cool.

But the Scarlet Witch would then affect the probablility of the outcome...God that woman has such a lame power. It makes NO sense, no matter how they try and explain it...

TheSilverKnight
2006-06-26, 07:01 AM
Yah this whole fourm reminds me of Hero Clicks where the Hulk can have all his nomal powers plus a f***ing bazuka bigger than himself. Also where one version of the same hero/villan may be more powerful based off of rarity example Patch and Wolvirein(sp?)

AmoDman
2006-06-26, 07:05 AM
Yah this whole fourm reminds me of Hero Clicks where the Hulk can have all his nomal powers plus a f***ing bazuka bigger than himself. *Also where one version of the same hero/villan may be more powerful based off of rarity example Patch and Wolvirein(sp?)

Hehe, well she is his sister ;). They usually come in a pair.

DeathQuaker
2006-06-26, 07:42 AM
I like Lois, but why is she as dumb as a sack of hammers when it comes to Superman? I mean really how does Lois an investigative reporter not get that Superman and Clark Kent are the same guy?

Unless they changed something in the most recent retcon/universe rewrite, she knows and is, in fact, married to him.

TheSilverKnight
2006-06-26, 08:03 AM
Unless they changed something in the most recent retcon/universe rewrite, she knows and is, in fact, married to him.


As far as all current versions are conserned she is justhis co-worker and only after years of putting 2 and 2 together does SHE discover he is Superman and her love of Superman transfers to Clark.

TheSilverKnight
2006-06-26, 08:06 AM
Hehe, well she is his sister ;). They usually come in a pair.

You are refering to Quicksiver and Scarlet witch correct?

I prefer the X-Men Evolution version of scarlet witch because she is much more like her father and only assists Quicksilver because they are family and if memory serves me right one of them switches side and joins the X-Men(this is just in reference to evolution I know Quicksilver is an X-Men if not just good aligned in the older comics)

Beleriphon
2006-06-26, 09:55 AM
Unless they changed something in the most recent retcon/universe rewrite, she knows and is, in fact, married to him.

I know that, I have that comic. What I mean is it took 60 years of comics, and progressively more idiotic behaviour on Lois' part not to notice. I just find the whole thing frustrating since she is by all accounts a very bright woman.

Caillach
2006-06-26, 01:22 PM
I like Lois, but why is she as dumb as a sack of hammers when it comes to Superman? I mean really how does Lois an investigative reporter not get that Superman and Clark Kent are the same guy?


err....love is blind? :P (ergh, gag me)

but in all seriousness that may have come out of neccessity for writeing and plot purposes (untill they found a new way to write in which Lois discovers truth). But keep in mind some other superhero's idenitys are pretty bloody obvious and manage to keep it from friends and families who they have known for their whole life.

Ing
2006-06-26, 03:08 PM
dudes, Lois KNOWS/KNEW he was superman for a while. you think she wouldn't figure it out? she keeps up the act for several reasons

1) its fun to mess/tease Clark that way, she how she intentionaly (in classic) provides mock scorn for Clark while making sure he knows how she likes superman? or how she's always 'almost' finding out his secret. she's toying with him and like a lot of girls she thinks seeing his reactions are cute. its like junior high flirting.

2) if he's not ready to tell her, she's not going to force the issue...she's cool that way.

***********************************

i liked Evolution Scarlet witch, where she could kinda cause random chaos to happen. she does have a vaguely defined superpower...but the bad luck and chaos is better then the new 'rewrite reality, duex ex machina retcon' power she now has

what's everyone's take on Ultimate Witch/QuickSilver. It seems like they're dating? that is wrong on 5 kinda levels? what did Magneto encourage that in hopes or producing a greater mutant grandchild or something *shiver*. Ultimate Magneto...is a ****

Hamsterboy_14
2006-07-01, 10:22 AM
GiantITP beats both!

True, but thats not the point of this topic. So far marvel is winning. Please keep posting

TurboNewb
2006-07-02, 04:10 AM
Both companies send their lawyers in, armed to the teeth. The lawyers can't find a loophole in the law that allows them to bring harm to the opposing companies' staff or property, so they start spreading propaganda. Comic sales fall as a result of this. Marvel and DC agree that this isn't good for either of them, so they compromise and publicly announce that neither Marvel or DC are better. Fanboys lynch them, and lay waste to the buildings where the staff work.

Riots start between the fanboys as to which company is better. Disgruntled fanboy police officers supply each of the forces with weapons and grenades. George W. Bush watches Superman Returns and begins to think it's real. He orders all Marvel supporters into Iraq, and bombs the place.

Hippies and environmental activists get aggravated by this action, and start fighting back. They are fighting solely against DC supporters, so theoretically they are on the Marvel side. Missionaries of the Marvel religon go to Iraq to find any survivors. While there, they discover Osama Bin Laden sitting alone in a cave, reading a Marvel comic.

They make friends with Osama, and Osama orders his suicide bombers to attack America, where most of the DC supporters are gathered. Most of the DC population are killed, or wounded greviously. The others flee and go into hiding. However, the White House is practically impenetrable, so George W Bush still has power.

The Marvel side is afraid to move because of suicide bomber attacks, and the DC side is afraid to reveal themselves, because George W Bush still has control over nuclear missiles and is eager to fire them. Marvel supporters gradually die out of disease and hunger, and DC supporters are on the brink of death due to most of their people being dead (having gone on suicide bombings), and accidental bomb detonations.

In conclusion: DC wins, but only because George W watches Superman Returns instead of Spiderman 2.

Ing
2006-07-02, 09:13 AM
dude, y u gotta bring politics into it?

Tokeloshe
2006-07-02, 01:57 PM
Alright Ing. Post removed.

That said, maybe this board could do with a political discussions section.

CelestialStick
2006-07-02, 07:26 PM
The problem is that DC tends to be a more high-powered world than Marvel. Heroes and villains tend to be more powerful in the DC Universe, where they have to contend with the likes of Superman and Wonder Woman. Marvel has powerful characters, of course, don't get me wrong, but DC has a lot more of them.

Of course, I prefer Marvel because it tends to push the human side of the characters more. But in a pure knock-down brawl, the Marvel heroes would have difficulty fighting the DC heroes.
These are two good observations.

DC really created the iconic suerheroes, people more than and better than the average person. Many of these superheroes go back to the late 1930s and early 1940s when people really wanted to be inspired.

Other than Captain American (and Submariner), however, Marvel's superheroes really date from the 1960s. Unrest over civil rights and the Vietnam War, along with the introduction of postmoderism, led Marvel to create a stable of more imperfect superheroes, characters designed not to inspire but to make ourselves feel better about our imperfections. So the DC superheroes seem more powerful and better while the Marvel superheores seem weaker and more human.

As far as the original question goes, I (obviously) choose Superman as my favorite DC superhero. He has long been my favorite. I grew up watching the old George Reeves Superman of the 1950s. I also grew up watching the campy Batman of the 1960s, and I think that, although today's comic book fans largely hate that version of Batman, that's what made him my second-favorite superhero. I even like the darker (or in the Timm/Dini version, grumpier anyway) version of Batman as he offers a nice contrast to Superman's boyscout/paladin. My brothers used to make fun of the Green Lantern as the "Purple Power Pinky" but I like him, Wonder Woman and the Girls (Super and Bat) as well.

I have more trouble picking a Marvel favorite, I suppose specifically because they're not so iconic and don't stand for goodness and virtue the way that the DC superheroes do. I mean I liked Spiderman growing up. I also liked the Hulk, but mostly from the Bill Bixby tv show, and Thor, although later knowledge of the Thor of actual Norse religion (red hair and beard instead of blonde hair and clean-shaven) probably diminished my fondness for Marvel's version. I vaguely recall Submariner, Fantastic Four and Avengers. I also recall Captain America with his boomarang shield. More recently the X-Men have caught my attention, almost solely because of the movies that the comic book fans might not like all that much.

Logan is an attractive anti-hero in an area when people seem to like anti-heroes more than heroes. Hugh Jackman does a great job of it. Yet Patrick Stewart seems like a perfect Xavier, who seems like a rather great superhero--crippled and superpowered at the same time. I also like Toby McGuire's innocent and vulnerable Spiderman. (I love the scene where he tries to stop the train with his foot, the way that maybe Superman could, hurt himself, and then has one of the watching people ask him for his next bright idea. I also like the way that after they pull him into the train one of the passengers says, "he's only a kid!")

I think I'm going to list Spiderman, Wolverine and Xavier, in that order. I should mention that I like both Jean Grey and Storm.

I've been tempted over the years to actually buy DC comics, but never any Marvel comics. I will watch pretty much any DC or Marvel animated series, however, even the kiddie-oriented X-Men Evolution (which I call X-Teens) and The Batman. For films, I find that I want to go opening day to Superman and X-Men, but not Batman or Spiderman. I guess while I rated Spiderman as my favorite over Logan and Xavier, collectively I like the X-Men better. X-Men also has going for it my favorite villain, Magneto. I just don't care for any of the Spiderman villains I've seen, like Doc Oc or the Green Goblin. I mean they're certainly suitable villains for Spiderman, but they don't appeal the way that Magneto or even Mystique does.

Ing
2006-07-02, 07:30 PM
and then you have Image, where everyone's a frikking baby eating sociopath

CelestialStick
2006-07-02, 07:53 PM
and then you have Image, where everyone's a frikking baby eating sociopath
LOL. They didn't hire Frankly Madman, the creator of The Dark Nut Returns, did they? ;)

Ing
2006-07-02, 09:08 PM
no they were perfectly able to build a world of utter monsters on their own. if u think batman is dark Philip Seymore Christ do not read almost anything from image.

Heros with next to no redeeming factors...the world of anti-heros....ummmm yay?

thouh to be fair i liked some of it early on but it failed to become as iconic as Marvel and the rest are.

CelestialStick
2006-07-02, 09:42 PM
no they were perfectly able to build a world of utter monsters on their own. if u think batman is dark Philip Seymore Christ do not read almost anything from image.

Heros with next to no redeeming factors...the world of anti-heros....ummmm yay?

thouh to be fair i liked some of it early on but it failed to become as iconic as Marvel and the rest are.
Well as sick as they sound, I'm glad to hear that they never became as popular as Marvel, so say nothing of DC.

Edit: Oh I forgot to mention that of course Superman should beat the Hulk, even on raw physical strength. The Hulk can throw around tanks; Superman can shift planets in their orbits.

Beleriphon
2006-07-02, 09:43 PM
LOL. They didn't hire Frankly Madman, the creator of The Dark Nut Returns, did they? ;)

Leave Frank Miller alone. He did write Sin City after all. A spectacular comic book, although certainly on the grim, gritty and violent end of things.

Ralfarius
2006-07-02, 11:29 PM
You know what fight I wasn't disappointed with? Robin vs. Jubilee.

Actually, I shouldn't say I was disappointed with the fight. I wasn't disappointed with the boy wonder beating out little ms. Sparkle-Sparkle. That entire section of pages was disappointing enough without an upset victory.

I, too, was upset when The Main Man was beat out by some pipsqueak with claws... And an adamantium skeleton, and superhuman regenerative powers... Well, okay, I guess Wolverine is as badass as Lobo (although not as fun), so that was to be expected.

Frankly, I found it pretty funny when Storm set down Mjollnir and still electrocuted Wonder Woman to death with a few lightning bolts.

Personally, I prefer Marvel generally over DC. That's mostly for the X-men. Nothing wrong with running a 150-200 point super with just a limited power or two. It sort of fleshes out each of their abilities, and what they bring to the team as a person & a super. With the Justice League, there's just a lot of redundancy in what each of them can do.

Not to say that I don't like DC, or the Justice League. One of the more recent episodes of JLU where they had Vigilante, Shining Knight, Green Arrow and suchnots on Parade, only to be attacked by the disgruntled former head of the Cadmus project was one of my favourites. Nothing quite like seeing all the second-string bush league heroes getting kicked around for half an hour while doing their darndest to stop a new monster and save a city.

CelestialStick
2006-07-03, 01:47 AM
You know what fight I wasn't disappointed with? Robin vs. Jubilee.

Actually, I shouldn't say I was disappointed with the fight. I wasn't disappointed with the boy wonder beating out little ms. Sparkle-Sparkle. That entire section of pages was disappointing enough without an upset victory.

I, too, was upset when The Main Man was beat out by some pipsqueak with claws... And an adamantium skeleton, and superhuman regenerative powers... Well, okay, I guess Wolverine is as badass as Lobo (although not as fun), so that was to be expected.

Frankly, I found it pretty funny when Storm set down Mjollnir and still electrocuted Wonder Woman to death with a few lightning bolts.

Personally, I prefer Marvel generally over DC. That's mostly for the X-men. Nothing wrong with running a 150-200 point super with just a limited power or two. It sort of fleshes out each of their abilities, and what they bring to the team as a person & a super. With the Justice League, there's just a lot of redundancy in what each of them can do.

Not to say that I don't like DC, or the Justice League. One of the more recent episodes of JLU where they had Vigilante, Shining Knight, Green Arrow and suchnots on Parade, only to be attacked by the disgruntled former head of the Cadmus project was one of my favourites. Nothing quite like seeing all the second-string bush league heroes getting kicked around for half an hour while doing their darndest to stop a new monster and save a city.
I don't recall that particular episode, but I generally liked JL/JLU. In some episodes we got to see the really powerful, iconic superheroes, while in others we go to see the second- (and third-)stringers.

I particularly love the episode where the League is off just over a set of buildings saving the world while poor Booster Gold is consigned to directing traffic. He ends up saving the world from a different threat, but nobody knows it. Poor guy. If I recall correctly, however, he got the girl in the end. :D

dfpiii
2006-07-03, 03:55 PM
Marvel.

Also - why do we think the hulk is stronger than superman? It's a bit off topic, but I was wondering as someone mentioned it earlier in this thread.

Finwe
2006-07-03, 06:26 PM
Isn't superman able to press something like 30 quintillion tons? That's just a bit more than the Hulk's 100+ tons.

Closet_Skeleton
2006-07-03, 06:41 PM
I think The Hulk is stronger than Superman, and weaker, and equal and not even close. Superman changes his strength every decade. Then again, flinging The Hulk into the sun might make him stronger.

CelestialStick
2006-07-05, 02:04 AM
Leave Frank Miller alone. He did write Sin City after all. A spectacular comic book, although certainly on the grim, gritty and violent end of things.


Wow! Frankly Madman did Las Vegas as well as The Dark Nut Returns? I thought Bugsy Siegel did Las Vegas? :D


Isn't superman able to press something like 30 quintillion tons? That's just a bit more than the Hulk's 100+ tons.

I read on Wikipedi that in a recent story Superman could lift 20 quintillion tons, and shifted Pluto in its orbit.

Beleriphon
2006-07-05, 03:15 AM
Wow! Frankly Madman did Las Vegas as well as The Dark Nut Returns? I thought Bugsy Siegel did Las Vegas? :D


Funny CS, real funny. :P Have you read DKR yet? As for Sin City (being the comic book of the same name) its is good, and highly entertaining. Very much in the noir, no matter how much you win, you lose side of things.

Shotaro
2006-07-05, 03:48 AM
Way I see it the DC Heroes are essentially a Pantheon of 'Gods' all of the symbolism is there especially if you consider Greek Mythology, heck even all of the major Greek Gods are represented if you think about it.

For example the Watchtower where they observe the world and seek to right the wrongs or have active involvment in what is happenning - has definate echoes of mount Olympus dontcha think?

The more Human side of Marvel certainly makes the characters easier to empathize with but at the same time marvel can get lost in a heroes day-to-day life. I've never really read marvel long-term because every comic i pick up it seems more like a Soap Opera than a Superhero story.


DC also has better villains, anybody who can think of a better villain than Lex Luthor gets a badge of honour seriously, hes a normal human who takes on a 'God' regularly, superman may be the man of steel but lex certainly has balls of steel (god thats a terrible pun....)

And DC do the big stories better, I recently read House of M, and while it was good it just wasn't as good as Infinite Crisis (I would compare it to COIE but nothing really compares to that!) nor did it have such a massive expansive story, (atm I have read Identity Crisi, TT:The future is now AND the $1 lead in to Infinite Crisis but as yet still don't know everything that happenned in the lead up to IC)

Plus {OLD - Dark Knight Returns/Year One era} Frank Miller/Alan Moore/Marv Wolfman > Any Marvel writers

Oh and fyi i think superman is overpowered to the point of funny, seriously when he was dead, DC was better than ever and like Batman said to Supes 'The Last time you inspired anyone was when you were dead!'

Closet_Skeleton
2006-07-05, 07:55 AM
DC also has better villains, anybody who can think of a better villain than Lex Luthor gets a badge of honour seriously, hes a normal human who takes on a 'God' regularly, superman may be the man of steel but lex certainly has balls of steel (god thats a terrible pun....)

Well, certain DC writers obviously think they can think of a better villain that Lex Luthor, seeing as how they've completly re-written him at least three times. He's been a basement mad scientist, Clark Kent's childhood friend, C.E.O. of a megacorp...

Steward
2006-07-05, 10:53 PM
I have to take all of Lex Luthor's victories with a grain of salt since Superman could kill him in a blink of an eye and chooses not to for God knows what reason.

Caillach
2006-07-06, 01:08 AM
I have to take all of Lex Luthor's victories with a grain of salt since Superman could kill him in a blink of an eye and chooses not to for God knows what reason.

Superman doesn't kill. That's not his style.

and also Lex Luther is awesome, with or without powers. so... meh

Vaynor
2006-07-06, 01:52 AM
MARVEL PWNS ALL

Serpentine
2006-07-06, 10:52 AM
One makes interesting heroes, the other makes fun villians. Now lets all sit down and have a cup of chai.

Jack Mann
2006-07-06, 11:33 AM
Lex Luthor is whatever America is afraid of at the time. When people began to be afraid of scientists, he was a mad scientist. When they began to think the corporations were getting out of control, he became a businessman. And in 2000, he became president...

Smashymcsmash
2006-07-06, 12:08 PM
*And in 2000, he became president...


Zing!

StudlyDuck
2006-07-06, 09:59 PM
Way I see it the DC Heroes are essentially a Pantheon of 'Gods' all of the symbolism is there especially if you consider Greek Mythology, heck even all of the major Greek Gods are represented if you think about it.
Right you are. I'm not really familiar with the current lineup, but a few years ago they were actually designed to mimic the pantheon.

Ok, found the article. This is the lineup chosen by Grant Morrison back in '98.

Superman = Zeus
Wonder Woman = Hera
Flash = Hermes
Batman = Hades
Green Lantern = Apollo
Aquaman = Poseidon
Huntress = Artemis
Zauriel = Eros
Steel = Hephaestus
Orion = Ares
Big Barda = Demeter
Plastic Man = Dionysus
Oracle = Athena

Serpentine
2006-07-07, 12:03 AM
Superman = Zeus
Wonder Woman = Hera
Flash = Hermes
Batman = Hades
Green Lantern = Apollo
Aquaman = Poseidon
Huntress = Artemis
Zauriel = Eros
Steel = Hephaestus
Orion = Ares
Big Barda = Demeter
Plastic Man = Dionysus
Oracle = Athena
So Superman's a horny bastard, Wonder Woman's a crazy bitch, and Batman kidnapped the daughter of Big Barda? I don't know Plastic Man, so I can't comment on any horns or alcoholism.


edit: Wouldn't Orion just be Orion?

Closet_Skeleton
2006-07-07, 09:14 AM
edit: Wouldn't Orion just be Orion?

Come on, since when has that logic worked?

Ing
2006-07-07, 09:21 AM
Orion's not a god, he was a mortal hero.


who got eaten by a giant scorpion.

ravenkith
2006-07-07, 10:52 AM
In all seriousness, I like and buy different titles from both companies. For me, it's a question of the relative quality of the book as compared to all the other titles that are out there.

Recently, I got back into comics after a 3 year hiatus (lack of funds), and am rediscovering *some of my favorite heroes:

One the marvel side, Spiderman, Wolverine and the Punisher draw my attention.

For DC, Nightwing, Flash, and Green Lantern are where it's at, for me at least.

I'm really enjoying the Civil War story line, as I find it both interesting and attention getting, whereas the 52 story line seems weak by comparison.

In the end, both 'universes' have extremely powerful individuals and capable heroes, but I've got to give th edge to Marvel, because they tend to do more with less, if you get what I mean.

I loved the 'Olympian' themed JLA, and have to admit that they told some good stories in that book, but pretty much everybody in it was a God of some kind in that universe: the metaphor was right on the nose.

Too much power in the hands of those individuals: it gets hard to invest any of the new villains with much menace, precisely because of the amount of power the combined League wields.

The most effective villains during that run of the book were Prometheus and The Key (what fricking name is he going by now anyways?), one of whom planned for years on how to take down the JLA and had to catch a lucky break to get past the Tower's defenses, the other of whom used the JLA's winning tendencies against them as the core of his own plans.

The closest parallel to the league in Marvel is the Avengers. Sure, they had a few members with God-like powers (Wonderman, Thor, Hercules, Hulk, Quicksilver) over the years, but mostly, the members would have only been considered middling at best in terms of power over in the DCU (Captain America, Wasp, Scarlet Witch (Pre-house of M), Vision, Black Widow, Hawkeye).

All of them have amazing and interesting powers...so what really makes the difference are the stories the writers choose to tell.

Straczynski (spelling?) has had an incredible run on the Amazing Spiderman book, and Ultimate Spider-man taps that nostalgic vein brilliantly as well.

Wolverine has always been one of my favorite characters, as he was always buried in dichotomies and strife: His lost memories, the stretch between his berserker nature (chaos) and samurai/secret agent training (order & control), the one between being a hero and a killer at the same time...all of them make for great plot hooks and reading material. You can never tell which way he's going to go on an issue: he's dangerous to be around, and literally anything (except his death) can happen. Of course, him living through that blast from nitro in the latest issue is pure BS, but, WTF? No wolverine = no book, right?

As far as the DCU is concerned, the power levels take away meaning from the characters in a lot of cases: the powers become the hero, instead of the hero using the powers. Spiderman's a hero because of what he does with his limited powers - he can be hurt or even killed, because basically, he's just a jazzed up human. Even Wolverine is like that, a human with a little something extra, that helps make being a hero easier, but never easy. They are human beings going above and beyond to help *others, at the core of their characters.

I like the Punisher because he REALLY takes a bite out of crime. Come on, what guy hasn't seen drug dealers and pimps taking advantage of naive kids, and thought: "You know, the universe would be a better place if they just put a bullet in some of these jokers". Not to mention murderers and rapists, or anything else for that matter.

With Superman, or Wonder Woman, or even Green Lantern, the Martian Manhunter, or for that matter, Steel or Batman, anytime they appear in any other identity other than that of the hero persona, for them, that's the disguise -- especially with Kyle Rayner of late, because of his tragedies in his personal life, it's like he's given up on it altogether.

Batman, is of course, the quintessential version of this kind of hero: he only ever wears his Bruce Wayne face to cover for things he does as the Bat. In the Bruce Wayne: Murderer story line, he ven did away with the identity completely for a few weeks: sure, it didn't help his already tenuous grip on reality much, but it didn't seem to phase him too badly--besides, it wasnt BW that he missed, but the trust of his 'family'.

In the DCU, the books are about people with POWERS. In Marvel, the books are about PEOPLE with powers.

Now, the Hulk VS. Supes thing? The right man won.

1. Hulk was in his 'brainy form', substantially dropping his power levels, and losing him the 'Hulk is strongest one there is ability'. It's long been established that for Bannerhulk to be dominant, the character actually surrenders a sizable portion of his power level. It's like this, in terms of sheer strength:

Superman => Raging Green Hulk
Raging Green Hulk > Grey Hulk > Brain Green Hulk > Bruce Banner

Of course, in terms of intelligence, on the hulk side of the equation at least, the exact opposite is true.

Come to think of it, if you look at the entirety of the Marvel universe, you might find that there is a constant directly inverse relationship between intelligence and physical strength in most of their properties.

Thing, Mr Fantastic, Spider-Man (hello, the guy has got some serious intelligence issues, look at the various stupidities hes managed over the years, although he does learn), Dr. Octopus (he was smart, until he got physical power, and then he started doing some really stupid stuff), Dr. Doom (Smart, but never ever uses it to full effect...HE MADE SUPERVILLAINS on the beyonder's world...hasn't done it since, as far as I recall, not even to himself...still relies on that crappy armor...)....hrm, something to think about at any rate...

2. Hulk is just a tough bruiser - Superman has more options, and with flight vs. jumping = heat vision & microscopic vision, the outcome should be freaking obvious there (find a weak spot on the dermis with micro vision, attack it with yor 'laser-eyes', repeat as necessary).

Supes, is Supes: He can take a 7 day straight (I think that's how long Doomsday & He took to fight across America, but I haven't looked at that book in a looooooong time) beating from someone of like power level and only need a nap in the sun afterward....yes, that's right, the guys over at DCU basically stated that if he hadn't been buried underground in the dark, Supes would have recovered a hell of a lot quicker... :o

Oh, and Bat Vs Cap: again, right man won. Bat took it into an area that gave him a tactical advantage. Cap wears armor for a reason: sure he's a tough SOB, for a Human, but basically he's as resistant to damage as a peak fitness normal human...he's not much tougher than, say, Joe Frazier in his prime, or Muhammed Ali. If the Bat can get into close quarters, take away the range advantage that Cap's thrown shield gives him, Batman can hit him with martial arts moves all day long. Batman has, what, Eight black belts now? Cap has probably the equivalent of one or two, through years of hard fought experience, and he really gets his teammates to do a lot of the heavy lifting for him. Batman wins...especially seeing as Cap was trying to swim wearing a suit of chainmail and as RPers, we all know how dangerous that idea can be ;).

Wonder Woman vs Storm? Yeah, that was whack. WW should have walked through those bolts like they were a warm breeze and flicked Storm on the head, knocking her out: Storm isn't even in the same state as Wonder Woman's league in terms of power.

Oh and Image? 1 word: Plagiarism.

Top Cow is fun.

StudlyDuck
2006-07-08, 03:24 PM
I've always liked Marvel better for the reason that seems to be the general view. *The characters feel more like people. *DC heroes tend to throw around so much power that the personality behind it gets lost. *That said, I feel like DC is trying to get away from that lately. *Identity Crisis was a good example.

Caillach
2006-07-10, 02:01 AM
Right you are. I'm not really familiar with the current lineup, but a few years ago they were actually designed to mimic the pantheon.

Ok, found the article. This is the lineup chosen by Grant Morrison back in '98.

Superman = Zeus
Wonder Woman = Hera
Flash = Hermes
Batman = Hades
Green Lantern = Apollo
Aquaman = Poseidon
Huntress = Artemis
Zauriel = Eros
Steel = Hephaestus
Orion = Ares
Big Barda = Demeter
Plastic Man = Dionysus
Oracle = Athena

mabye in the toned down kiddie greek myths, But man, Greek gods aren't any kind of superheros at all.
Grant Morison is wrong wrong wrong.

Beleriphon
2006-07-10, 03:27 AM
mabye in the toned down kiddie greek myths, But man, Greek gods aren't any kind of superheros at all.
Grant Morison is wrong wrong wrong.

No Greek gods had all of the mortal frailties of, well, mortals. They just had ridiculous amounts of power, and some anger management issues. But I think you're missing the point Duck. It isn't to say that the Superman is exactly like Zeus in personality, but as a way to play the different characters off of each other in terms of importance. It also shows a clear deliniation of function in DC's pantheon of heros by giving them corresponding Greek gods.

While Zeus' most well known trait was his extreme virility, and willingness to prove how extreme it was, he was also a fair and caring god for those he favoured. He was also the most powerful and the head of the pantheon. If you wanted to make a comparison, Superman is the most logical choice.

Batman is also a good line up for Hades. He rules the dark recesses of the world. While Hades was a dark, and brooding god he wasn't evil. Like Batman he didn't enjoy what he did, but performed his duty out of necessity. He was also by his nature a loner, again Batman and Hades line up nicely.

To further the example of comparative function Steel is the inventor for DC's characters. Much like Hephaestus was the forge master of the Olympians. Artemis and Huntress is another fun example, others are so stupidly obvious (Aquaman/ Poseidon) that they require no explanation. Overall I like the idea as a compartive function.

Caillach
2006-07-10, 08:39 PM
No Greek gods had all of the mortal frailties of, well, mortals. They just had ridiculous amounts of power, and some anger management issues. But I think you're missing the point Duck. It isn't to say that the Superman is exactly like Zeus in personality, but as a way to play the different characters off of each other in terms of importance. It also shows a clear deliniation of function in DC's pantheon of heros by giving them corresponding Greek gods.

While Zeus' most well known trait was his extreme virility, and willingness to prove how extreme it was, he was also a fair and caring god for those he favoured. He was also the most powerful and the head of the pantheon. If you wanted to make a comparison, Superman is the most logical choice.

Batman is also a good line up for Hades. He rules the dark recesses of the world. While Hades was a dark, and brooding god he wasn't evil. Like Batman he didn't enjoy what he did, but performed his duty out of necessity. He was also by his nature a loner, again Batman and Hades line up nicely.

To further the example of comparative function Steel is the inventor for DC's characters. Much like Hephaestus was the forge master of the Olympians. Artemis and Huntress is another fun example, others are so stupidly obvious (Aquaman/ Poseidon) that they require no explanation. Overall I like the idea as a compartive function.

Perhaps they are similar in role, but I think it ends pretty quickly after that. You might as well line it up with the white house standings if you're going to do that. ie: Bush= superman
Condoliza Rice (sp?) = wonderwoman etc.
(most) Superhero's don't "mimic the pantheon" There are symbolic symilarities in the case of the Flash and Aquaman (gag me) but to say all of them do is too far.


Your thing on Batman and Hades is very good though. They do have many similarities that I didn't see before, though I'm not so sure that Hades didn't like his job, He always seemed a passive judge to me. I think he was fine with the straw he got.

Beleriphon
2006-07-10, 08:47 PM
Your thing on Batman and Hades is very good though. They do have many similarities that I didn't see before, though I'm not so sure that Hades didn't like his job, He always seemed a passive judge to me. I think he was fine with the straw he got.

Thank you. I think you're right, I reread some of my classics last night and discovered that Hades didn't want the underworld, but he didn't particularly care one way or another in the long run. Its also said the he accomplished many of his goals through the use of trickery. So even more Batman goodness there. And for the real kicker Hades was the wealthiest of all the gods since he controlled the wealth of minerals and gems buried beneath the ground. So we have Bruce Wayne.

As for the whole pantheon thing, it is there. All of them have a certain symbolic similarity to the Greek gods, and the ones listed are probably the best match. I agree that the Greek gods were hardly heroic (most of the Greek heros weren't heroic), I still think that if one were inclined to look at the similarities beyond personality then the list is quite correct.

CelestialStick
2006-07-11, 06:39 AM
Thank you. I think you're right, I reread some of my classics last night and discovered that Hades didn't want the underworld, but he didn't particularly care one way or another in the long run. Its also said the he accomplished many of his goals through the use of trickery. So even more Batman goodness there. And for the real kicker Hades was the wealthiest of all the gods since he controlled the wealth of minerals and gems buried beneath the ground. So we have Bruce Wayne.

As for the whole pantheon thing, it is there. All of them have a certain symbolic similarity to the Greek gods, and the ones listed are probably the best match. I agree that the Greek gods were hardly heroic (most of the Greek heros weren't heroic), I still think that if one were inclined to look at the similarities beyond personality then the list is quite correct.

You're completely forgetting that Hades had a wife, demonstrating that he wasn't a loner. Zeus was a letcherous, lying, cheating bastard who uses his divine powers to corrupt innocents without any regard for the consequences to them. Hera was a bitter, vengeful harridan who compounded Zeus' abuse of innocents by punishing them for Zeus' infidelities. You can hardly get further from Superman and Wonder Woman than Zeus and Hera. Really I have to agree with Caillach that the notion that the DC superheroes are analogues of the Greek gods is fundamentally false. Where the Greek gods were morally flawed exemplars of what happens when people give in to their baser instincts, the DC superheroes were, by and large, paragons of virtue.

DeathQuaker
2006-07-11, 07:52 AM
IIRC the point of the Grant Morrison JLA was simply to mimic the structure of the Olympian Council, not draw specific comparison between the Superheroes' and the Gods' personalities. It was more the idea of 12 core members, led by a powerful male and female, with other members like a mercurial male trickster, a female long range expert, a male warrior, a female tactical advisor/information gatherer, etc.

The connections between the Morrison JLA and the Olympian Council were supposed to be pretty superficial.

Now, so how about that Marvel vs. DC? :)

Caillach
2006-07-11, 01:14 PM
I still am unsure if just structure is enough to verify that it "mimics the panthenon"

I think one that really throws me off is hera=wonderwoman. I don't even think that Hera was the most powerfull female of the panthanon, and if she was she didn't do a very good job. She was to busy finding out about Zues's affairs than to do anything that actually mattered. I'd say Athena was held far more important, in both the eye's of mortals and in the eye's of Zues. So even when you remove personality not everything lines up quite right for me.
But then again, perhaps I'm looking a little to far into this ;)



Now, so how about that Marvel vs. DC? :)

Aww. But I like this off topic.

Beleriphon
2006-07-11, 02:15 PM
But then again, perhaps I'm looking a little to far into this * ;)



Perhaps you are, but the point that they gods weren't exactly paragons of virtue is important. Of course if you look past their mythical personalities and behaviour to what they actually represent as deities. From that perspective it gets closer.

At any rate I'd agree that the comparison is supposed to be largey superficial, and only designed to mimic the structure. This is really funny when you take into consideration that the Olympian deities are very much realy in DCs universe.

DeathQuaker
2006-07-11, 02:27 PM
I still am unsure if just structure is enough to verify that it "mimics the panthenon"

One thing you have to remember is that the superheroes were made up before the idea of the gods were brought into it. The idea of vaguely mimicking the pantheon was just a gimmick, a way to narrow down who was going to be part of the group. Morrison wasn't trying to say, "Hey, these guys are _exactly_ like the Greek Gods." After all, the Greek Gods actually existed in the DCU up until fairly recently, and they looked nothing like the JLA. :)

It's not so much that you're looking too much into this that I think you're misinterpreting how much effort was made to draw the analogies between the two groups. The God analogy was to provide an outline, not make resounding declarations about proper interpretation of mythology.

Also, you also have to keep in mind that the JLA have to have a certain amount of core members which include Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Flash, and Martian Manhunter (BTW, I can't dig out my comics at the moment, but I'm pretty sure Manhunter is supposed to be part of that lineup... but I can't remember who he was supposed to be).



I think one that really throws me off is hera=wonderwoman. I don't even think that Hera was the most powerfull female of the panthanon, and if she was she didn't do a very good job. She was to busy finding out about Zues's affairs than to do anything that actually mattered.

I think you're underestimating Hera. She was very powerful and influential. She could turn people into animals with a glare. She made rain when Zeus couldn't. The eyes of the peacock gave her eyes everywhere. The thing was that she wasn't very Superhero-y -- she didn't run around beating people up. Her primary job was to govern marriage and childbirth. Pregnant women couldn't give birth without her. The reason why she was so spiteful towards Zeus and his mistresses was because they spat upon the institution she was supposed to protect. Her jealousy was silly, but there was a reason behind it. But if you look at her in total--you see she is basically the ancient Greeks' idea of the "True Woman" (yes this also shows that the ancient Greeks are sexist, but what can you do?).

Wonder Woman is our "woman beyond all women." She is more martially powerful, but much of her inner strength comes from her affinity to truth and loyalty--things which Hera cherished, and despised those who disdained such things, including her unfaithful husband.

Yeah, it's a tenuous stretch, but it is there.

And again, I firmly believe it was not meant to be to serious or deep of an analogy to begin with.



I'd say Athena was held far more important, in both the eye's of mortals and in the eye's of Zues. So even when you remove personality not everything lines up quite right for me.

You sayin' Oracle's not important? 'Cause if you are, I might have to get out my escrima sticks... ;D


Aww. But I like this off topic.

Yeah, and look at me not helping.

Let's see... what did the OP say he wanted us to do?

Ok. My favorite superhero is Wonder Woman, with a close second as Helena Bertinelli the Huntress. My least favorite superhero/villain.... hm.... probably Guy Gardner. I never got the point of him. There are better comic book characters who are better jerks.

I prefer DC.

okpokalypse
2006-07-11, 03:38 PM
The one that I thought was bad was when Storm beat Wonder Woman--WW should pretty clearly have taken that one. *There may be others like that, but I can't remember them at the moment.

Flight + Ranged Attacks = Win (If the person is Smart)

Storm is actually vastly underrated considering her powers. Flight, Weather Manipulation, Lightning Control. She can literally kill from miles away if she chose to, or could use Area of Effects such as mass floods or mass lightning storms to just lay an entire area to waste.

Ing
2006-07-11, 03:45 PM
I dunno i don't think many slighted women would consider Hera's jealousy silly...


they might actually admire her restraint

okpokalypse
2006-07-11, 03:51 PM
I'm sorry but thanos is infinately more powerful than darkseid. Allow me to elaborate:

"I am now omnipotent. What should I do with such almighty power? The answer to that is really quite simple: Anything I want. Anything. I am incapable of error. Any result that displeases me I can simply reverse. There is nothing I need to worry on, for I am Thanos. And Thanos is supreme." -Thanos

One tip of the hat I had to give to Thanos was how he froze the cosmic entities (Eternity, Death, Law, Chaos, Galactus, the Tribunal and the Stranger) into a grotesque menagerie on the Asteroid after he had the Infinity Gauntlet.

The only reason he 'lost' was because he wanted to lose. He got no thrill out of supreme omnipotence, and pretty much let the gauntlet go and took up farming :).

I wonder how a Non-Gauntleted Thanos would stand up to a Silver Surfer while under the "Protector of the Universe" title (w/ Quantum Bands)?

Caillach
2006-07-11, 05:11 PM
You sayin' Oracle's not important? 'Cause if you are, I might have to get out my escrima sticks... ;D




Haha! Noooo. Definately not.
But because we were argueing structure by importance of gods, I thought it was a valid point. (besides wonderwoman really seems more Athena-esc than Hera-y)

Steward
2006-07-11, 07:56 PM
I dunno i don't think many slighted women would consider Hera's jealousy silly...


they might actually admire her restraint

What restraint?

She basically used her powers to bully people who couldn't fight back just because she couldn't control her idiot husband. Never mind that she doesn't lay a finger on Zeus, and basically puts all the blame on the 'other' women. When I see that, I don't see 'restraint'.

Then again, my favorite superhero is Superman, and my favorite comic maker is DC (just because they are the only ones who make Superman...as far as I know). Of course, Marvel is good too, but they don't have Superman.

Ing
2006-07-11, 08:36 PM
yah that was the joke, though Hera's more forgiven and merciful than some spited women i've heard talk just after a dump.

You forget Hera's most powerful ability, INFLICT MADNESS. does nothing to Gods but she can turn any mortals life into a living hell. Sure you can kill someone's family but making them kill their own family is damn evil vengence.

Steward
2006-07-12, 01:36 AM
yah that was the joke, though Hera's more forgiven and merciful than some spited women i've heard talk just after a dump.

Eh? At least the spited women don't go and try to kill women and infants just because they know that no-one can stop them.




You forget Hera's most powerful ability, INFLICT MADNESS. does nothing to Gods but she can turn any mortals life into a living hell. Sure you can kill someone's family but making them kill their own family is damn evil vengence.

I know. She did that to Heracles, and that was way worse than just venting after a breakup. That doesn't make me like her any more, especially when there are cooler goddesses like Athena and Hestia running around.

Foxer
2006-07-13, 11:57 AM
With regard to the Greek goddesses, it must be remembered that, if Athene had been born male, she would have possessed the power to overthrow Zeus and found a new generation of gods, just as Zeus had overthrown Kronos and Kronos had overthrown Ouranos.

After Athene, Hera is far and away the most powerful of the Olympian generation of goddesses - she trounces Artemis when they fight in the Illiad and sends her crying to Daddy like the spoilt little rich girl she is.

And, for the record, Hera did try to overthrow Zeus. And got badly beaten for her pains.

The bastard.

If I remember my Hesiod rightly, the only beings Zeus feared were Moira and Nyx - both goddesses.

ravenkith
2006-07-13, 12:25 PM
I think the reason Zeus was afraid of those two in particular is that while he had the power to meet any head-on confrontation, especially if it was a threat to his whole pantheon, the two in question are both powerful and cunning, and would not have come at him head on.

One - Moira, quite literally could visit horrible things on his followers, and controlled both fate and chance. There would never be any evidence of an attack, as it would seem like random happenstance.

The other, Nyx, goddess of NIght, child of Chaos, was very much also a spirit of random behavior.

What's that old saying: "The best swordsman in the world does not fear the 2nd best, but instead the worst."? Unpredictability and non-direct confrontations have kept more than a few dictators awake at night, I'm sure.

CelestialStick
2006-07-20, 12:46 PM
One thing you have to remember is that the superheroes were made up before the idea of the gods were brought into it. The idea of vaguely mimicking the pantheon was just a gimmick, a way to narrow down who was going to be part of the group. Morrison wasn't trying to say, "Hey, these guys are _exactly_ like the Greek Gods." After all, the Greek Gods actually existed in the DCU up until fairly recently, and they looked nothing like the JLA. :)

It's not so much that you're looking too much into this that I think you're misinterpreting how much effort was made to draw the analogies between the two groups. The God analogy was to provide an outline, not make resounding declarations about proper interpretation of mythology.

Also, you also have to keep in mind that the JLA have to have a certain amount of core members which include Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Flash, and Martian Manhunter (BTW, I can't dig out my comics at the moment, but I'm pretty sure Manhunter is supposed to be part of that lineup... but I can't remember who he was supposed to be).


I think you're underestimating Hera. She was very powerful and influential. She could turn people into animals with a glare. She made rain when Zeus couldn't. The eyes of the peacock gave her eyes everywhere. The thing was that she wasn't very Superhero-y -- she didn't run around beating people up. Her primary job was to govern marriage and childbirth. Pregnant women couldn't give birth without her. The reason why she was so spiteful towards Zeus and his mistresses was because they spat upon the institution she was supposed to protect. Her jealousy was silly, but there was a reason behind it. But if you look at her in total--you see she is basically the ancient Greeks' idea of the "True Woman" (yes this also shows that the ancient Greeks are sexist, but what can you do?).
[snip]


You sayin' Oracle's not important? 'Cause if you are, I might have to get out my escrima sticks... ;D

Um, the Oracle is associated with Apollo, not Hera. The Oracle show's Apollo's power, not Hera's.

Nobody disputes Hera's power--to wreak havoc on innocent mortal women seduced by her husband or the even more innocent children of such women--but she put her power to evil purposes and didn't gain the respect of more just goddesses like Athena, the patron goddess of Athens.

In any case, as Belephiron points out, the Greek gods, rather than representing virtue, represented the broad gamut of human behavior, includingly largely our flaws, only writ large because of the power behind them. DC's Justice League, on the other hand, represented virtue and justice. So if anything the Justice League is the opposite rather than the representation of the Greek gods.

Beleriphon
2006-07-21, 02:45 AM
In any case, as Belephiron points out, the Greek gods, rather than representing virtue, represented the broad gamut of human behavior, includingly largely our flaws, only writ large because of the power behind them. DC's Justice League, on the other hand, represented virtue and justice. So if anything the Justice League is the opposite rather than the representation of the Greek gods.


You also have to remember that the gods by and large good. Its just that we tend to only remember the negatives, or stories only focus on the negatives. Zeus may have been a philandering oaf sometimes, but he was also the patron of all humans. He gave us the muses, the fates, even the furies. Zeus provided to humanity all of their virtues.

Don't undersell the Greek gods, we tend to only tell the stories where they are antagonists.

CelestialStick
2006-07-21, 03:48 AM
You also have to remember that the gods by and large good. Its just that we tend to only remember the negatives, or stories only focus on the negatives. Zeus may have been a philandering oaf sometimes, but he was also the patron of all humans. He gave us the muses, the fates, even the furies. Zeus provided to humanity all of their virtues.

Don't undersell the Greek gods, we tend to only tell the stories where they are antagonists.


I'm sorry, but I think you're mistaken. The Greek gods by and large weren't good, but rather served as lessons about how not to act. They largely didn't care about mere mortals, and it was Prometheus, a renegade titan, who brought fire to humanity, not the gods, who punished him for all eternity for doing it.

Beleriphon
2006-07-21, 04:07 AM
I'm sorry, but I think you're mistaken. The Greek gods by and large weren't good, but rather served as lessons about how not to act. They largely didn't care about mere mortals, and it was Prometheus, a renegade titan, who brought fire to humanity, not the gods, who punished him for all eternity for doing it.


True, but the gods were as much examples of proper behaviour as inappropriate.

A specific example for Zeus. This is merely and over view, and a brief one but it does show several examples of Zeus being a good being, who was actually looking out for the people that worshipped him.
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/z/zeus.html

CelestialStick
2006-07-22, 12:03 PM
True, but the gods were as much examples of proper behaviour as inappropriate.

A specific example for Zeus. This is merely and over view, and a brief one but it does show several examples of Zeus being a good being, who was actually looking out for the people that worshipped him.
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/z/zeus.html


From the url you provided:

Zeus had many offspring; his wife Hera bore him Ares, Hephaestus, Hebe and Eileithyia, but Zeus had numerous liaisons with both goddesses and mortals. He either raped them, or used devious means to seduce the unsuspecting maidens.

Yeah, but other than the deceipt and rape, Zeus was a fine fellow, right? :D

Beleriphon
2006-07-22, 12:09 PM
From the url you provided:

Zeus had many offspring; his wife Hera bore him Ares, Hephaestus, Hebe and Eileithyia, but Zeus had numerous liaisons with both goddesses and mortals. He either raped them, or used devious means to seduce the unsuspecting maidens.

Yeah, but other than the deceipt and rape, Zeus was a fine fellow, right? :D

Well, I didn't say he was perfect. The gods run the gamut of human emotion. Zeus was powerful and benevolent, but his temper was capricious. Not as much as other deities, but most of them weren't terrible either.

Superman merely keeps very good control of his temper. There have been a few times that he loses his temper and his wrath is awful thing. This makes him more human, that he can lose control but tries very hard not to.

Ing
2006-07-22, 04:28 PM
what redeaming qualities did Aries have?

Beleriphon
2006-07-22, 06:42 PM
what redeaming qualities did Aries have?


He doesn't have any. But then again every pantheon needs a bad guy don't they? That being said he did father Harmonia, goddess of peace so take that as you will.

Caillach
2006-07-23, 02:52 PM
This is merely and over view, and a brief one but it does show several examples of Zeus being a good being, who was actually looking out for the people that worshipped him.
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/z/zeus.html

Yeah. He looked after the people who worshiped him.
If you didn't give him any gain you were screwed.

Beleriphon
2006-07-23, 03:55 PM
Yeah. He looked after the people who worshiped him.
If you didn't give him any gain you were screwed.

Well everybody worshipped Zeus at some level so that comment is misleading. Given that he also ruled over laws and civics anybody that was alive and did stuff worshipped Zeus.

Steward
2006-07-23, 04:04 PM
Yeah. He looked after the people who worshiped him.
If you didn't give him any gain you were screwed.

Most gods only looked after people who worship them, especially the ones whose power is proportional to the number of sacrifices/praise/prayers that they receive. It's only when there is only one or two god(s) that that there is a real reason for a deity to try to take care of everyone.